Is 'Wah-e-Guru' The Name Of God?
Admin note: When someone questions the unique status of Everlasting Guru, based on contrary theories, one can do so forums other than SPN. If one wishes to contest a "sanatan dharma" view one can do that in Interfaith Dialogs. If one wishes to debate a sectarian view related to the original 4 sampardayas of Sikhism, one can post in the Sanatan Sikhism section of the forum. Terms of Service specifically forbid undermining of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji. When in the judgment of moderators and mentors, this has occurred, expect deletions and/or discpilinary action. When the Banee is blatantly misquoted or misinterpreted, you should expect disagreement. Multiple identities lead to a ban from the forum. Thank you, Narayanjot Kaur
waheguru, allah, ram, hari, and all others are name of gods.
one cannot differenciate between any of them or cast them as high or low.
when u r saying ram or waheguru or hari, the eternal beloved should be in ur mind. thats the only point of view u should have.
And another thing, guru arjan dev ji called God thakur,pritam,prabh and in so many other names. guru Ramdas ji called God Ram. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the everlasting fateh " Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh"
Tell me now which guru is right.
can you ????
if u can then u r completely mistaken or out of ur mind.
When there is no difference between Guru's( all are one jyot) then how can we differenciate between the names they take.
If after so much talkings and sikhi prachars we r only able to discuss on such a useless topic then its no way that we can term ourselves as "Those on the path of sikhi". plz plz plz rethink abt what u posted.
don't worry about the name, my freind !
god will see ur intent
one cannot differenciate between any of them or cast them as high or low.
when u r saying ram or waheguru or hari, the eternal beloved should be in ur mind. thats the only point of view u should have.
And another thing, guru arjan dev ji called God thakur,pritam,prabh and in so many other names. guru Ramdas ji called God Ram. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the everlasting fateh " Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh"
Tell me now which guru is right.
can you ????
if u can then u r completely mistaken or out of ur mind.
When there is no difference between Guru's( all are one jyot) then how can we differenciate between the names they take.
If after so much talkings and sikhi prachars we r only able to discuss on such a useless topic then its no way that we can term ourselves as "Those on the path of sikhi". plz plz plz rethink abt what u posted.
don't worry about the name, my freind !
god will see ur intent
Narayanjot Ji,
Unless you are a member of a sect, maybe one of the sanatan sampardayas or maybe one of the break-away sects that follow Sant Mat, there is no guru/chela arrangement in Sikhism. I mean -- how many times is it necessary to repeat this simple fact? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji is the Guru Granth. And in addition.
Why don’t you answer the question I raised in my post, instead accusing me a member of sant-mat. I have stated that I have no religion. I am spiritual man. You still can’t get it?
Are there no one reading this forum other then you moderators?
As it was pointed out by other moderator that Buddhism lost because hindu rituals crept into Buddhism. This is going to happen to Sikhism. We are willingly increasing the rituals into Sikhism.
seeker
Unless you are a member of a sect, maybe one of the sanatan sampardayas or maybe one of the break-away sects that follow Sant Mat, there is no guru/chela arrangement in Sikhism. I mean -- how many times is it necessary to repeat this simple fact? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji is the Guru Granth. And in addition.
Why don’t you answer the question I raised in my post, instead accusing me a member of sant-mat. I have stated that I have no religion. I am spiritual man. You still can’t get it?
Are there no one reading this forum other then you moderators?
As it was pointed out by other moderator that Buddhism lost because hindu rituals crept into Buddhism. This is going to happen to Sikhism. We are willingly increasing the rituals into Sikhism.
seeker
seeker3k ji
You were not the person I was addressing those comments to. In fact I took special care not reply to your specific arguments because I thought there were some interesting things that you said and that Lee was going to discuss. I was instead pointing out why I took the actions I took. These comments pertained to the ideas put forward by
akalpurakh, simran kaur, and jazlim -- who are the same person, and who have been banned.
Please carry on with your comments. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
You were not the person I was addressing those comments to. In fact I took special care not reply to your specific arguments because I thought there were some interesting things that you said and that Lee was going to discuss. I was instead pointing out why I took the actions I took. These comments pertained to the ideas put forward by
akalpurakh, simran kaur, and jazlim -- who are the same person, and who have been banned.
Please carry on with your comments. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
seeker3k ji
Let me give you an example:
This comment is not about you per se. It is explaining why SPN administration takes the actions it takes.
SPN administration has to intervene when that kind of blatant commentary takes place -- especially when there is a clear agenda to undermine the Bani of the Gurus by slipping in that same old argument that we read too often -- Sikhs are reconstituted Hindus and SGGS is reconstituted Vedanta. That is wrong. That is the kind of argument put forward by collusion to demoralize Sikhs.
Let me give you an example:
This comment is not about you per se. It is explaining why SPN administration takes the actions it takes.
SPN administration has to intervene when that kind of blatant commentary takes place -- especially when there is a clear agenda to undermine the Bani of the Gurus by slipping in that same old argument that we read too often -- Sikhs are reconstituted Hindus and SGGS is reconstituted Vedanta. That is wrong. That is the kind of argument put forward by collusion to demoralize Sikhs.
seeker3k ji
Here is where I am explaining that no one has deleted anything or modified anything just because of a point of view.
So far nothing has been deleted or modified in any way. In fact -- an error on my part was pointed out by Gyani ji and I have fixed it. That is called behaving like a mature adult. As far as your idea that SPN administration might "ruin" things -- I have to chuckle. Because disrespect to Professor Thind and his work has been expressed by a poster, now banned. And, a misreading of Sanskrit has been pointed out. Not to mention the fact that a completely fabulous claim has been made that Waheguru does not appear anywhere in SGGS.
Here is where I am explaining that no one has deleted anything or modified anything just because of a point of view.
So far nothing has been deleted or modified in any way. In fact -- an error on my part was pointed out by Gyani ji and I have fixed it. That is called behaving like a mature adult. As far as your idea that SPN administration might "ruin" things -- I have to chuckle. Because disrespect to Professor Thind and his work has been expressed by a poster, now banned. And, a misreading of Sanskrit has been pointed out. Not to mention the fact that a completely fabulous claim has been made that Waheguru does not appear anywhere in SGGS.
seeker3k ji
This is where perhaps I need to re-state and re-clarify. I can see how you would take this personally.
You are personally entitled to your own opinion above. But here is something else to consider. Unless you are a member of a sect, maybe one of the sanatan sampardayas or maybe one of the break-away sects that follow Sant Mat, there is no guru/chela arrangement in Sikhism.
You are entitled to your own opinion. Now when I said, "Unless you are a member of a sect," what I should have said is, "Unless someone is a member of a sect." That is my mistake and I apologize for not being clear.
The rest of the paragraph was a general comment.
This is where perhaps I need to re-state and re-clarify. I can see how you would take this personally.
You are personally entitled to your own opinion above. But here is something else to consider. Unless you are a member of a sect, maybe one of the sanatan sampardayas or maybe one of the break-away sects that follow Sant Mat, there is no guru/chela arrangement in Sikhism.
You are entitled to your own opinion. Now when I said, "Unless you are a member of a sect," what I should have said is, "Unless someone is a member of a sect." That is my mistake and I apologize for not being clear.
The rest of the paragraph was a general comment.
Aman1234 Ji,
Gurfateh.
Its NOT a case of which GURU is right or wrong...HOW can that be when they are ALL GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. THAT is why ALL of them used the Pen Name NANAK in their Gurbani. By themsleves they just gave NUMBERS as ID....1,2,3,4,5 and 9. ( 6,7,8) DIDNT WRITE ANY GURBANI. One of the reasons put forward is that Mehrban son of Prithiya was a fantastic Kathawachak of Gurbani and could write bani that looked almost like the Original. FAKE Bnai had already begun making its debut during the tiem of Guru AMARDASS JI..and thus He warns us about KACHI BANI in Anand Sahib..Kachi bnai..kehndeh kacheh, sundeh kacheh !! A sort of Health Warning on Fake Medicine...made by Fakes..Taken by Fakes..WILL LEAD TO DEATH - Physical Death in case of fake Medicine and SPIRITUAL DEATH in case of Kachi Fake Bani. BUT by the Time of MEHRBAN ( Incidentlaly proofs exist that THIS is the TIME the FAKE BHAI BALA JANAMSAHI was prepared by the Mehrban Group to DISCREDIT GURU NANAK LINE OF GURUS..and PROMOTE their OWN LINE as AUTHENTIC.) MEHRBAN and Gang were wriitng Bnai under the MEHLA Chhevan 6 ...etc. ) This is speculation as no one really knows the answer..but its probable that the Guru hargobind Ji and Guru har rai ji abstained from writing any Gurbani to defeat the chaalbaaz Mehrban Group. The SANGATS would then soon know that since Guru hargobind Ji is not writing any Gurbani..all that under Mahalla 6 must be FAKE. By the Time fo the Ninth Guru this fake propoganda had become well known..In fact its a historical fact that Sangats were indeed drawn to Kathas of Mehrban as he did katha so well.mesmerised large crowds...even taking away so much sangats that Bhai Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdass Ji and other prominent Sikhs had to stand guard at the four directions to inform the sangats of the true Guru....this was perhaps the one way to defeat him..take away what he "copies"....
Anyway I digressed...
1. NOTE that GURU NANAK JI Gave us ORIGINAL...Preamble...EK OANGKAAR..SATNAAM..KARTA PURAKH...NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR, AKAL MOORAT, AJOONEE SAIBHANG, GURPARSAAD. This is the BASIC FOUNDATION of GURMATT. ALL of this Preamble is ORIGINAL and EXCLUSIVE to GURU NANAK...including the Figure 1 adjoining the Open ended Oorrah EK-OANGKAAR. This is not a WORD..its not a NUMBER..its a UNIQUE COMBINATION coined by our FOUNDER to set GURMATT APART from ALL that came Before and will come after.... Thus we find that GURU NANAK JI has already set the PARAMETRES of His NEW totally DIFFERENT GURMATT PHILOSOPHY..WAY OF LIFE that is to Follow.
2. Carefully chosen and TESTED GURUS followed...NONE tried to show his "independence''break away from the Original parametres..or show He is better..more right..etc etc. EACH followed the EXACT Parametres already established by the Founder. Each used the Same PREAMBLE in His Gurbani. IN Fact they also dropped their own Names and used ONLY NANAK. In their TITLE they used the NUMBER...2,3,4 following the NUMERAL ONE for Nanak Himself. What else could be clearer ???
3. The Following GURUS..then used the PARCHALAAT "names"..of the CREATOR..Raam, Gopal, Thakur..Narayan..Allah, Rahim...etc etc etc as these were parchalaat..meaning well established in the MINDS of the Spiritual Masses.. This is Normal...IF the GURU wants to address the HINDU MASSES.He of NECESSITY has to use the "names" they are FAMILIAR WITH....the Bhgats also use the Names they are familiar with...that is why when Guru Ji addresses the Islamic Masses He uses ALLAH.and RAHIM. Who will listen to Guru Ji using ALLAH at HARDWAAR ?? OR..THAKUR at MECCA ?? The "use" is merely a Formality..those like Bhagat Kabir Ji who has also understood the deeper substance and gone beyond the superficial..uses Allah and Raam INTERCHANGEABLY..thye even QUESTION that IF..the Creator is RAAM and HE is only looking after the EAST (Hindu lands)..then who looks after the WEST (Islamic lands)..Allah Raam ke Pind Paraan MERGES the "superficial Names"..deeper down its the SAME CREATOR... Its the MESSAGE that is important..not the "name" per se.... So its more a case of Prevailing CULTURAL and RELIGIOUS sensibilities that these names are used..the Masses get the MESSAGE is more important than what particular name is important/more/less/ etc. This is an exercise in FUTILITY.
4.
Each Guru beginning with Guru Nanak Ji gave the "Naam" Gurmantar as GURU-DEEKHYA to each Disciple.. Those among the Disciples who were OUTSTANDING and emerged tried and true..were given the Ultimate..the GURGADEE...example Bhai Lehnna Ji...became Guru Angad Ji. But its a FACT beyond Dispute that EACH disciple ahd to receive GURU DEEKHYA from the GURU personally before he/she/ could become a SIKH. There is No record of any so called SIKH..who sitting at home all by himself decided that..from today I am Sikh of this or that GURU. THIS Cannot happen. The Disciple has to approach the GURU....MATHA TEK..and ask the Guru to accept him/her as His disciple...
5. With Guru Gobind Singh Ji..the HUMAN LINE of DEHDHAREE GURUSHIP came to an END. THUS GUru Gobind Singh Ji came up with the Next Best way of GURU DEEKHYA.....becasue Gurgadee was to be passed to the Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji SGGS...the GURU DEEKHYA part of the equation was thus invested in the PANJ. In order to ESTABLISH the AUTHORITY of the PANJ to be BEYOND FUTURE DISPUTES...Guru Gobind RAI Himself Bowed before the PANJ. begged Guru deekhya PAHUL/GURMANTAR from them on Bended Knees and CHANGED His name to GURU GOBIND SINGH. Thus He OBLITERATED the Line between Guru and Chela ESTABLISHING the PANJ as the Next Instiutution that will henceforth take over the GURU DEEKHYA part REQUIRED/ of a SIKH.
THIS is why the PANJ are vested with the GURU DEEKHYA AUTHORITY...but WITHIN the AGEIS....TABIAH of the SGGS. 'INDEPENDENT"... of the SGGS the Panj have no power.
6. Now the Vital and important part. The Naam/Guru deekhya that was given personally by each Guru...has now been vested in the PANJ. This GURU-DEEKHYA is the GURMANTAR that the PANJ give to EACH abhilakhee of Khandey batte dee PAHUL. ONLY the PANJ can Give this....and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI ESTABLISHED this Fact in 1699 when He inspite of being defacto "GURU"..went down on Bended KNee to ask the Panj for the Pahul/Gurmantar and change of name. THUS...NO ONE can lay claim to being a "disciple" of SGGS ONLY all by himslef/herself...He/she has of necessity to appear BEFORE the PANJ to be ACCEPTED as a SIKH...be given the Guru-deekhya/GURMANTAR. From 1699, this GURMANTAR has been WAHEGURU. GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in His GURU Capacity Gave us this..and as SIKHS we have to accept it.period. Anyone going "back" to examples used by Guru Nanak Ji or Guru Arjun Ji sahib and insisting that he/she is a "sikh" and only wants to say har har etc is only FOOLING himself/herself...that Har har is "better'..and so on are all self delusional arguments........No one can stop you..its personal choice...and to chose an "argument" put forward by one of my students..why would someone who has been awarded a PHd Degree by a University..be keeping that in a shoe case and flaunting his Kindergarten "certificate"....will he get a "job" with his kindergarten cert or his PHd Degree ?? No one can Stop the kiddie cert carrier..but people will laugh at his "wisdom"...:welcome:
Gurfateh.
Its NOT a case of which GURU is right or wrong...HOW can that be when they are ALL GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. THAT is why ALL of them used the Pen Name NANAK in their Gurbani. By themsleves they just gave NUMBERS as ID....1,2,3,4,5 and 9. ( 6,7,8) DIDNT WRITE ANY GURBANI. One of the reasons put forward is that Mehrban son of Prithiya was a fantastic Kathawachak of Gurbani and could write bani that looked almost like the Original. FAKE Bnai had already begun making its debut during the tiem of Guru AMARDASS JI..and thus He warns us about KACHI BANI in Anand Sahib..Kachi bnai..kehndeh kacheh, sundeh kacheh !! A sort of Health Warning on Fake Medicine...made by Fakes..Taken by Fakes..WILL LEAD TO DEATH - Physical Death in case of fake Medicine and SPIRITUAL DEATH in case of Kachi Fake Bani. BUT by the Time of MEHRBAN ( Incidentlaly proofs exist that THIS is the TIME the FAKE BHAI BALA JANAMSAHI was prepared by the Mehrban Group to DISCREDIT GURU NANAK LINE OF GURUS..and PROMOTE their OWN LINE as AUTHENTIC.) MEHRBAN and Gang were wriitng Bnai under the MEHLA Chhevan 6 ...etc. ) This is speculation as no one really knows the answer..but its probable that the Guru hargobind Ji and Guru har rai ji abstained from writing any Gurbani to defeat the chaalbaaz Mehrban Group. The SANGATS would then soon know that since Guru hargobind Ji is not writing any Gurbani..all that under Mahalla 6 must be FAKE. By the Time fo the Ninth Guru this fake propoganda had become well known..In fact its a historical fact that Sangats were indeed drawn to Kathas of Mehrban as he did katha so well.mesmerised large crowds...even taking away so much sangats that Bhai Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdass Ji and other prominent Sikhs had to stand guard at the four directions to inform the sangats of the true Guru....this was perhaps the one way to defeat him..take away what he "copies"....
Anyway I digressed...
1. NOTE that GURU NANAK JI Gave us ORIGINAL...Preamble...EK OANGKAAR..SATNAAM..KARTA PURAKH...NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR, AKAL MOORAT, AJOONEE SAIBHANG, GURPARSAAD. This is the BASIC FOUNDATION of GURMATT. ALL of this Preamble is ORIGINAL and EXCLUSIVE to GURU NANAK...including the Figure 1 adjoining the Open ended Oorrah EK-OANGKAAR. This is not a WORD..its not a NUMBER..its a UNIQUE COMBINATION coined by our FOUNDER to set GURMATT APART from ALL that came Before and will come after.... Thus we find that GURU NANAK JI has already set the PARAMETRES of His NEW totally DIFFERENT GURMATT PHILOSOPHY..WAY OF LIFE that is to Follow.
2. Carefully chosen and TESTED GURUS followed...NONE tried to show his "independence''break away from the Original parametres..or show He is better..more right..etc etc. EACH followed the EXACT Parametres already established by the Founder. Each used the Same PREAMBLE in His Gurbani. IN Fact they also dropped their own Names and used ONLY NANAK. In their TITLE they used the NUMBER...2,3,4 following the NUMERAL ONE for Nanak Himself. What else could be clearer ???
3. The Following GURUS..then used the PARCHALAAT "names"..of the CREATOR..Raam, Gopal, Thakur..Narayan..Allah, Rahim...etc etc etc as these were parchalaat..meaning well established in the MINDS of the Spiritual Masses.. This is Normal...IF the GURU wants to address the HINDU MASSES.He of NECESSITY has to use the "names" they are FAMILIAR WITH....the Bhgats also use the Names they are familiar with...that is why when Guru Ji addresses the Islamic Masses He uses ALLAH.and RAHIM. Who will listen to Guru Ji using ALLAH at HARDWAAR ?? OR..THAKUR at MECCA ?? The "use" is merely a Formality..those like Bhagat Kabir Ji who has also understood the deeper substance and gone beyond the superficial..uses Allah and Raam INTERCHANGEABLY..thye even QUESTION that IF..the Creator is RAAM and HE is only looking after the EAST (Hindu lands)..then who looks after the WEST (Islamic lands)..Allah Raam ke Pind Paraan MERGES the "superficial Names"..deeper down its the SAME CREATOR... Its the MESSAGE that is important..not the "name" per se.... So its more a case of Prevailing CULTURAL and RELIGIOUS sensibilities that these names are used..the Masses get the MESSAGE is more important than what particular name is important/more/less/ etc. This is an exercise in FUTILITY.
4.
Each Guru beginning with Guru Nanak Ji gave the "Naam" Gurmantar as GURU-DEEKHYA to each Disciple.. Those among the Disciples who were OUTSTANDING and emerged tried and true..were given the Ultimate..the GURGADEE...example Bhai Lehnna Ji...became Guru Angad Ji. But its a FACT beyond Dispute that EACH disciple ahd to receive GURU DEEKHYA from the GURU personally before he/she/ could become a SIKH. There is No record of any so called SIKH..who sitting at home all by himself decided that..from today I am Sikh of this or that GURU. THIS Cannot happen. The Disciple has to approach the GURU....MATHA TEK..and ask the Guru to accept him/her as His disciple...
5. With Guru Gobind Singh Ji..the HUMAN LINE of DEHDHAREE GURUSHIP came to an END. THUS GUru Gobind Singh Ji came up with the Next Best way of GURU DEEKHYA.....becasue Gurgadee was to be passed to the Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji SGGS...the GURU DEEKHYA part of the equation was thus invested in the PANJ. In order to ESTABLISH the AUTHORITY of the PANJ to be BEYOND FUTURE DISPUTES...Guru Gobind RAI Himself Bowed before the PANJ. begged Guru deekhya PAHUL/GURMANTAR from them on Bended Knees and CHANGED His name to GURU GOBIND SINGH. Thus He OBLITERATED the Line between Guru and Chela ESTABLISHING the PANJ as the Next Instiutution that will henceforth take over the GURU DEEKHYA part REQUIRED/ of a SIKH.
THIS is why the PANJ are vested with the GURU DEEKHYA AUTHORITY...but WITHIN the AGEIS....TABIAH of the SGGS. 'INDEPENDENT"... of the SGGS the Panj have no power.
6. Now the Vital and important part. The Naam/Guru deekhya that was given personally by each Guru...has now been vested in the PANJ. This GURU-DEEKHYA is the GURMANTAR that the PANJ give to EACH abhilakhee of Khandey batte dee PAHUL. ONLY the PANJ can Give this....and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI ESTABLISHED this Fact in 1699 when He inspite of being defacto "GURU"..went down on Bended KNee to ask the Panj for the Pahul/Gurmantar and change of name. THUS...NO ONE can lay claim to being a "disciple" of SGGS ONLY all by himslef/herself...He/she has of necessity to appear BEFORE the PANJ to be ACCEPTED as a SIKH...be given the Guru-deekhya/GURMANTAR. From 1699, this GURMANTAR has been WAHEGURU. GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in His GURU Capacity Gave us this..and as SIKHS we have to accept it.period. Anyone going "back" to examples used by Guru Nanak Ji or Guru Arjun Ji sahib and insisting that he/she is a "sikh" and only wants to say har har etc is only FOOLING himself/herself...that Har har is "better'..and so on are all self delusional arguments........No one can stop you..its personal choice...and to chose an "argument" put forward by one of my students..why would someone who has been awarded a PHd Degree by a University..be keeping that in a shoe case and flaunting his Kindergarten "certificate"....will he get a "job" with his kindergarten cert or his PHd Degree ?? No one can Stop the kiddie cert carrier..but people will laugh at his "wisdom"...:welcome:
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