General Is There A God?

[BhagatSingh]

Given he is using one accepted definition of pantheist among several -- how ably has he made his case? Or is his point that believers are a benighted lot, and he au contraire is not?

OK back to discussion.

May be we ought to discuss how well he has made his argument on a separate thread? You can start by posting his youtube videos.
Expose him Narayanjot Kaur ji, expose his ridiculous arguments!

 

[Sinister]

It's pointless to believe in something that we don't have the answer to yet.

OH really?

answer and truth are not synonymous. I could answer 2+2=5 even though it is not the truth it is albeit an answer. An answer can be random and nonetheless be an answer. Therefore all answers are pointless unless they become a justified true belief.

We know this, therefore we don't have to BELIEVE in it, because it's already true!.

you are going to argue that we dont have to believe in the justification, in order for something to be true? then a person could argue that justification is pointless...and thus all science and all the justifications hereof are also pointless

 

[Atheist]

you do realize that curiosity demands the feelings of intrigue, commitment and passion...right? (which you do not display because you dismiss that which is not privy to your tastes...an attitude observed and underlined above)

I was just performing a thought experiment.

According to your post you seem certain that the existence of truth is not dependant upon belief (which according to modern studies of physcology and neurology, a person could challenge). This means that you are convinced that truth exists independent of belief. and therefore truth is subjective only on the grounds of external perception. Which also means that truth would exist without you present.

But if I recall you also admit that you know nothing.
how could that be? You have nothing but cognitive dissonance written over every position you hold…therefore is any position you hold of any consequence?


SO...is there a moral obligation on your part to prove yourself wrong and challenge your own beliefs/truths if you indeed are the humble servant of uncertainty? ... it is something i would enjoy and consider worthy of discussion (rather than another endless debate about existence of god...by people who know nothing).

Yes, you could say that curiosity demands intrigue, commitment, and passion. But I disagree with your conclusion. Just because I admit my own ignorance and curiosity does not mean I have no intrigue. Not quite sure how you come to that conclusion.

I will explain once again: I simply was curious to know WHY people in this site believed in god, period. So far, only one person has explained why, and they said that they just do. That at least answers my question.

Of course I am intrigued, why else would I pose the question? I was raised by Sikh parents and was Sikh for most of my life, so therein lies why I am intrigued and committed to finding the truth. Does it make sense? You're trying to make me out to be some monster going on a rampage just because I'm an atheist. I just asked a question, why you believe in god, and what your definition of god is. Instead I am getting attacked.

Truth and belief are indeed independent. It is true that water is made of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. If you did not believe that, I'm pretty sure the composition of water would not change. Believing it does not make it so. Therefore truth has nothing to do with belief.

I admit I know nothing, that's just my way of admitting my own ignorance. The amount of knowledge I have in my brain compared to the amount of knowledge that exists is infinitesimal. Would you come to any other conclusion? That doesn't mean I have some cognitive dissonance, trying to reconcile the composition of water yet admitting my ignorance. The whole point was just to remind ourselves to be humble...

OH really?

answer and truth are not synonymous. I could answer 2+2=5 even though it is not the truth it is albeit an answer. An answer can be random and nonetheless be an answer. Therefore all answers are pointless unless they become a justified true belief.



you are going to argue that we dont have to believe in the justification, in order for something to be true? then a person could argue that justification is pointless...and thus all science and all the justifications hereof are also pointless

Hmmm, talk about splitting hairs. I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that you knew when I said "...that we don't have the answer to yet" you knew what I meant. Ok, let me rephrase so everyone understands:

It's pointless to believe in something that we don't have the RIGHT answer to yet.

Yes, hypothetically someone could say that 2+2=5, but this increasingly hypothetical person would obviously be wrong (right??). So even if they believed that, who cares. We have the RIGHT answer to what 2+2 is so it doesn't matter what anyone else BELIEVES. It seems like we agree on this point but we're just stating it in different words. You're obviously intelligent so I don't have to explain that to you.

Onto your last statement, "we don't have to believe in the justification, in order for something to be true?" Yes, that's EXACTLY what I am saying. 2+2=4 right? Therefore it does not matter if you or the guy down the street does not BELIEVE in the justification, because again you NOT BELIEVING it does not make 2+2 not equal to 4. That does not mean scientific justifications are pointless!

All I'm saying is that if something is really true, anyone's belief or dis-belief in the justfication is pointless...it would still be true. The justification would of course explain WHY it's true...but once the justification is proven to be true, we no longer have to BELIEVE it, we have no choice but to accept that it's the truth. For example, I have no choice (and it doesn't bother me one bit) but to accept that 2+2=4. So, I don't BELIEVE that 2+2=4, I simply accept that it is the case because the fundamentals of math prove why it's the case (my favorite justification is that if you have 2 pies, and you add 2 more pies, you have 4 pies total).

Again I'm pretty sure we are both on the same side of this particular issue, just using different words.

I am just asking various people here, why do you believe in god, what type of god do you believe in, and do you think god intervenes in human affairs and listens to prayers? Then I can ask more questions (like can be influence god?). You don't have to ask me to define god (there is no god as far as I'm concerned), I'm asking YOU to see what YOU believe out of curiosity.

But no one appears to be interested in answering those questions (except Lee!), and since the religious people here have taken offense, I will take my discussion elsewhere. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Atheist ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

You write:

Yes, I fully and completely understand that the Guru Granth Sahib is poetic, and this is what I wanted you to admit to.

Where did I deny that not to be true or was this one of your many ends to justify your means? Everyone knows that which is unlike the Bible which you have lumped together. The Bible NT or OT are full of parables and prose which is not the case of SGGS. So, it seems you are confused about your own beliefs/facts.

Therein lies the annoying problem with religion - it's not literal! Every single person has a different interpretation. We have already seen here that not everyone has the same interpretation.

I am sorry to know that you are annoyed with the poetry. I thought you loved to question and understand things. Your words:"" I am the first to admit I don't know anything, that is why we have to investigate things and figure them out. The first part of the scientific process is making an observation about something you don't understand. It's about the humility of admitting our own ignorance. "

Why this contradiction about yourself in the same post. Isn't interpreting things the process of learning? We all interpret things, especially what is said in a metaphorical manner according to our own understanding and as our understanding grows, we tend to interpret the same thing in different ways. Gurbani is like that. It is like an uncut diamond on which our personal experiences create the facets, which is the life long process.

It is rather bewildering to notice that you claim to know a lot about Sikhi but you have shown nothing but disdain towards it. You have shown very little understanding about Gurbani which is unlike any other religious literature. Yes, I know you will scream that all religions claim the same as you have done in your other posts, which is a false premise and shows total ignorance and absence of any understanding of the subject you are so keen to discuss about.

Let's take the Shabad you have posted 2 lines of. Do me a favour and post the whole Shabad and give us your understanding about it rather than copying and pasting the literal translation from the net. Share with us what Rahao- the main idea of the Shabad relates to. Then we can move this interesting discussion further.

If everything is a poetic metaphor, then that gives everyone the ability to believe whatever they want because that's how they interpreted it (agreeably happens much more in christianity than Sikhism...don't get me started on christianity though). When Guru Arjan says "you destroy millions of my sins" one person can think that means god decides when to forgive you for your sins, and another person might think that means the philosophy of the Guru Granth Sahib teaches someone to not sin, thereby effectively "forgiving" future sins (because they don't commit them). So this is again what I don't like about religion. It's so metaphorical everyone has a different interpretation of what it says. The Gurus should have just said "Here are the FACTS about god" and then used poetry/literature of fluff it up. But like every other religion, it forces everyone to have different interpretations. Another reason I am atheist.

Do the doctrines of atheism prohibit people to learn by interpreting things the way they see it?

Is poetry and its interpretation banned in your doctrines of non- belief?

My "desperate attempt" of putting a couple lines from a shabad was to prove a point, and I did just that. It got you to admit that it is poetic. The song "wind beneath my wings" indeed is a poem just like you said, but it's sole purpose is poetry and motivation. When RELIGION capitalizes on this, it's totally different, because "wind beneath my wings" doesn't tell people how to live their life, but religion does. Is my point now clear? I enjoy listening to shabads for their music and poetry, but clearly the true meaning behind them is always open to interpretation.

I am sorry to say that you have failed miserably in trying to prove a point for the reasons given and questions asked above. Gurbani is nothing but a tool box full of motivational tools which teach us how to breed goodness within and share with others. It also teaches us how to be open minded and shows us that learning is a life long endeavour, hence, the name Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker. It has no dogmas but it teaches us how to be pragmatists.

If I were you, I would study it and by doing so would find lots of things that identify with your way of life/lifestyle.

4. "Define Ik Ong Kaar as described in Mool Mantar for the reasons only known to me." I guess I just don't know what you mean by that question then. "Ik Ong Kaar" means god is one. There are no reasons only known to me. Please clarify your question, I clearly am not getting it.

As you claim to know Gurbani, sing Shabads and play Tabla etc etc, my question still stands. Mool Mantar describes what Ik Ong Kaar is. I asked you to describe it according to Mool manter, not what Ik Ong Kaar stands for. Mool Manter is the whole stanza which explains all this. Make an attempt. I never used the word God because that is not what Ik Ong Kaar is described as in Mool Mantar, according to MY interpretation..

Does atheism make me believe in energy? No.

Good, because it is not a belief but a fact as I said in my earlier post.

Energy of course is, as you say, formless, genderless, and timeless

That is exactly what Mool Mantar describes Ik Ong Kaar is. I wish you had studied it as were urged to.


Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Sinister]

Hmmm, talk about splitting hairs. I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that you knew when I said "...that we don't have the answer to yet" you knew what I meant. Ok, let me rephrase so everyone understands:

It's pointless to believe in something that we don't have the RIGHT answer to yet.

Yes, hypothetically someone could say that 2+2=5, but this increasingly hypothetical person would obviously be wrong (right??). So even if they believed that, who cares. We have the RIGHT answer to what 2+2 is so it doesn't matter what anyone else BELIEVES. It seems like we agree on this point but we're just stating it in different words. You're obviously intelligent so I don't have to explain that to you.

Onto your last statement, "we don't have to believe in the justification, in order for something to be true?" Yes, that's EXACTLY what I am saying. 2+2=4 right? Therefore it does not matter if you or the guy down the street does not BELIEVE in the justification, because again you NOT BELIEVING it does not make 2+2 not equal to 4. That does not mean scientific justifications are pointless!

All I'm saying is that if something is really true, anyone's belief or dis-belief in the justfication is pointless...it would still be true. The justification would of course explain WHY it's true...but once the justification is proven to be true, we no longer have to BELIEVE it, we have no choice but to accept that it's the truth. For example, I have no choice (and it doesn't bother me one bit) but to accept that 2+2=4. So, I don't BELIEVE that 2+2=4, I simply accept that it is the case because the fundamentals of math prove why it's the case (my favorite justification is that if you have 2 pies, and you add 2 more pies, you have 4 pies total).

Again I'm pretty sure we are both on the same side of this particular issue, just using different words.

I am just asking various people here, why do you believe in god, what type of god do you believe in, and do you think god intervenes in human affairs and listens to prayers? Then I can ask more questions (like can be influence god?). You don't have to ask me to define god (there is no god as far as I'm concerned), I'm asking YOU to see what YOU believe out of curiosity.

But no one appears to be interested in answering those questions (except Lee!), and since the religious people here have taken offense, I will take my discussion elsewhere. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Welcome, to an actual philosophy website,

You have entered the Cartesian circle. 'Things are because they are.'

We are not splitting hairs and we do not agree because agreement at this juncture is irrelevant… I am showing you the difference in philosophy between the externalist and internalist position of knowledge. There are no right or wrongs answers in philosophy…just commitment, curiosity and intrigue…lets see if you are honestly up for it and are what you say are (rather than what you believe you are...odd isnt it).

We humans do not know why light travels at a constant speed in a vacuum or why it indeed decides to travel at ~3x10^8 m/s...and not a different speed. we cannot determine the ought of mathematical and physical constants. they just are and the internalist would argue that they are because we believe that they are...and be just as 'right' (another word you have introduced).

if all human knowledge comes from sitting, observing and recording patterns, instead of constructing in our minds the ought then what does that say about life in general? Is that reality? what breeds conviction?

If you analyse something from the top down, where you explain things on one level using terms from the level below it, you reach a point where you end up with an abstract concept that says something is the way it is because that's they way it is. (circular belief)…Descartes ran into this (and I’m sure many thinkers before him did as well) it has been termed the Cartesian Circle.

You seem eager to discuss god

What is god? How can you discuss god if you do not have the patience in discussing the nature of truth? cause afterall in a pantheistic reality god=truth.

 

[Atheist]

<sighs>

Once again, people have totally misinterpreted what I said, trying to find contradictions where there aren't any, trying to attack me at every angle, and jumping to conclusions that aren't true. This coming from people that follow a religion that says be humble.

Seriously, all I asked was why you believe in god, and only one person honestly answered it...clearly I chose the wrong forum...

 

[jasbirkaleka]

Navdeep88 ji, everybody talks about spirituality.Could you pls. explain what this "spirituality" is.:}8-:
If God=Truth, then one can believe in truth without dragging God into it.Or are you talking about some other kind of truth?

 

[jasi]

Dear Memeber.

You have post this question if any one knows about the God.

I or no one can make you realizes His presence . It is only you when you have the desire with truthful heart to seek His presence ,may get blessed.

Denial of any thing proves nothing but more pains than trying to get to the bottom whatever course one take with whole heatedly. We are blessed with so many saints who tells all their experiences and dedications of life time to realizes the God 's presence.

The following lines are from Jap Ji Sahib ji to have brief explanations about God 's existences.

Guru Nanak Dev JI..

"MITHYA NA JAI, KEETA NA HOI , APE AAP NIRANJAN HOI".JAP JI SAHIB

In other words one can not suppose the name of God.one can not creat the God But His presence and creations is felt every where by all..

Presence was felt by all the Messengers,Gurus, Bhagats.,Devotees,or peace seeking
Sadhus.They all left us their documented preaching or how nto be able to realizes Hid presence with you all the time.

Please make sure your heart is seeking to realizes the GOD's presence being truthful and empathetic to your fellow people and continue to be thankful that you are so much blessed with health and joys . .There are millions of people suffering for unbelivable circumstances and hospitals are full of people going through a termendous pains but Guru's appreciation and daily prayers make them pass their souls to get emerged into God exsistances..

God is like a ocean and all rivers evetiually emerged into the ocean BUT can not describe the ocean's greatness or how vast it is.. After emerging into the ocean they looses all wordily names and identities to become a ocean so peaceful. No more fast running and big noises to make.

There two things in this world :

GOD presence can be realized or felt through transcendental miracle in our daily life by people who are dedicated to appreciate the God and live by god's deeds (KARMAS). You have to develop a eye to see after taking all steps to realizes His presence.,just like if you have to have achieve a science degree after spending 16 years in college .

Now you have passed and aware of the science subject and now ready to preach or teach to your other students . Same way our Gurus or Bhagats spent their lives to be blessed with knowledge His glories

You can not realize the God's presence by just denying with your own decision probably with lots of failures or frustrations experiencing with your past or o presence KARMA which made easy way out to say you do not believe in God.

Just look around you and in your heart and see God's presence , look into your daily needs and actions which are turning in your favor . Do not look at the doors which are closing but have an eye to see the new door opened for you.These are transcendental miracles you will start feelings His presence next to your heart

Here, our Bhagat spent all their lives to become aware of His Greatness.

KARMA.

All the prophets or GURUS and big scientists has one saying in common.

"What you sow whall you reap" Musa
"Actions and reactions are equal and opposite" Paul Newman Physicist
"Karmi apo apni ,ke kerre kia door. Jap Ji Sahib

Your actions and thought will reap bad or good Karma.

There is only one GOD . Where did any one make more than one.

We have so many religions because each religion has different messengers named after their teachers name. Christian are named after CHRIST. Mohammadan are named after PROPHET MOHAMMAD, BUDHIST are named after BUDHA.

VEDAS AND aLL ,MESSENGERS lefts no written proofs or any kinds of statments duing thier times to tell us when the God was created at what date but each of them preached and with thousand of appreciations on behalf of God.

No one has written any account but just talked about themselves to be worshiped except Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji who has mentioned His name several time in Jap ji Sahib GURU JI expressed his presence as a servant (DAS) to appreciate the God and still claimed He has no proper words by which He can explain HIS glorious presence.

God was only self realized by all the great Saints,Gurus and Bhagats and they left all the teaching for us to communicate with God.The quest of need to realize His presence will take birth in one's own soul if desire to frrl the existences is there but not by closing the doors because of one's own shortcomings

When one become a dedicated to his glory to appreciate HIS existence and wonderful creations all the realizations of His greatness is felt with all kinds unspoken transcendental miracle in daily lives..

God bless you..

Jaspi

 

[Tejwant Singh]

<sighs>

Once again, people have totally misinterpreted what I said, trying to find contradictions where there aren't any, trying to attack me at every angle, and jumping to conclusions that aren't true. This coming from people that follow a religion that says be humble.

Seriously, all I asked was why you believe in god, and only one person honestly answered it...clearly I chose the wrong forum...

Atheist ji,

Guru fateh.

Giving up so easily?

You mean you have the only right to ask questions and expect the responses that you have in your mind and get upset when not responded to accordingly?

I have the same right to ask you questions and I have explained the reasons above.

I apologise if you wanted us to act like Ms.Cleo the mind reader and respond to your questions exactly the way you had them framed in your mind.

No one has attacked you. Once again that is a false premise. Asking questions is not attacking. Re-read your posts again and check that out.

I hope now you understand the difference between Sikhi, Mool Mantar, Gurbani and other religions a bit more than you did before.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Make knowledge your best friend, not your worst enemy. Giving up shows the latter attribute.

Hope to hear from you and continue this interesting discussion. Please do not forget to share your understanding of the Shabad that you posted initially. This is the only way we can learn from each other no matter what path we choose.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Sinister]

Navdeep88 ji, everybody talks about spirituality.Could you pls. explain what this "spirituality" is.:}8-:

spirituality is trying to understand the nature of your reality

reconciling thought with emotion.

 

[jasbirkaleka]

Thank you Sinister ji,but how does belief in God helps in all this? Is it by singing 'His"praises day and night?:{-

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sinister ji
You said there was no other word for unknown truths + known truths... I think the word you are looking for is nature.
Scientists (I think Richard Fyenman) metaphorically said "I think Nature's imagination is so much greater than man's, she is never gona let us relax."
Nature's "imagination" including your unknown and known truths.

... and nature can't be confused with the kind of God many believe in.

 

[Sinister]

Thank you Sinister ji,but how does belief in God helps in all this? Is it by singing 'His"praises day and night?:{-

It depends on your definition of god.

the rest of your question is a matter of taste :}8-:

 

[Atheist]

No, I am not "giving up" as you put it. I asked very simply, WHY do you believe in god, and WHAT kind of god do YOU believe in?

An example answer could be "I believe in god because I had an interesting experience in which I prayed and felt a presence, and then my prayers were answered. I believe that god is an entity that listens to prayers and answers them, based on my experiences"

or "I believe in god because my parents told me to, and he is definitely a hands-on god"

or "I believe in god because of this passage in the guru granth sahib, but in reality he is the total sum of all energy...praying to him doesn't change his mind, but makes us better"

THAT is what I'm looking for, because I'm curious to know HOW people here came to the conclusion there is a god, so that I may perhaps learn their thought process. It's not that complicated, and I am not demanding that the answers are completely consistent with mine, in fact I count on them being different (that's what being open minded is).

Once people explain that thought process, I wanted to explore it further. Again, there is no point in asking me what I mean by god (because I don't believe in one), I am merely curious to know what YOU mean by god.

It was a simple question but I can clearly see no one wanted to answer it (except Lee). Clearly, the way I was raised as a Sikh is much different than people here. If someone asked me the same question I asked you 5 years ago, I would have explained how I felt his presence, how he answered my prayers, and how it made me a better person, because at that time that's what I felt was the truth, but we live and grow and make new conclusions based on the data we have.

That's the kind of discussion I was looking for. At least I tried.

 

[Sinister]

Sinister ji
You said there was no other word for unknown truths + known truths... I think the word you are looking for is nature.
Scientists (I think Richard Fyenman) metaphorically said "I think Nature's imagination is so much greater than man's, she is never gona let us relax."
Nature's "imagination" including your unknown and known truths.

... and nature can't be confused with the kind of God many believe in.

really? lets explore

is 2+2=4 .... nature? or is it best defined as truth?

again this stems from your belief that facts and truths are the same thing when they indeed are not.

nature is privy to facts
god is privy to truths
No linguistic equivalent exists

 

[BhagatSingh]

well, 2 + 2 = 4 is construct of human mind which is part of nature. Its a systematic way to organise the world around us,and be able to creat (sometimes very complex) models in our heads.

 

[Sinister]

well, 2 + 2 = 4 is construct of human mind which is part of nature. Its a systematic way to organise the world around us, in our heads.

ah so you are taking the viewpoint of an internalist?...for the sake of convenience or conviction?



well then god too is a construct of the human mind which is also part of nature. God is a systematic way to organize the world around us, in our heads.

the circle repeats itself.:meditation:

 

[BhagatSingh]

well, I won't deny that. God is definitely used in the model of the world that we create in our heads, just like 2 + 2 = 4.
Certain definitions of God make better models than others. With certain definitions of God, the model is no different than when there is no God in the model. with other definitions, the model is distorted and screws up the individual's worldview.
But I don't think I am an internalist.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Atheist ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

No, I am not "giving up" as you put it. I asked very simply, WHY do you believe in god, and WHAT kind of god do YOU believe in?

I am glad you are not because that would be a defeatist attitude, not that of a learner, a student a seeker.

An example answer could be "I believe in god because I had an interesting experience in which I prayed and felt a presence, and then my prayers were answered. I believe that god is an entity that listens to prayers and answers them, based on my experiences"

or "I believe in god because my parents told me to, and he is definitely a hands-on god"

or "I believe in god because of this passage in the guru granth sahib, but in reality he is the total sum of all energy...praying to him doesn't change his mind, but makes us better"

THAT is what I'm looking for, because I'm curious to know HOW people here came to the conclusion there is a god, so that I may perhaps learn their thought process. It's not that complicated, and I am not demanding that the answers are completely consistent with mine, in fact I count on them being different (that's what being open minded is).

Once people explain that thought process, I wanted to explore it further. Again, there is no point in asking me what I mean by god (because I don't believe in one), I am merely curious to know what YOU mean by god.

It was a simple question but I can clearly see no one wanted to answer it (except Lee). Clearly, the way I was raised as a Sikh is much different than people here. If someone asked me the same question I asked you 5 years ago, I would have explained how I felt his presence, how he answered my prayers, and how it made me a better person, because at that time that's what I felt was the truth, but we live and grow and make new conclusions based on the data we have.

That's the kind of discussion I was looking for. At least I tried.

Thanks for proving my point of my earlier post that you already had the answers you were looking for in your mind and only Lee complied with that and the rest of us who had different answers got you upset and you accused us of contradicting you which is not the case.

Your words:

Once again, people have totally misinterpreted what I said, trying to find contradictions where there aren't any, trying to attack me at every angle, and jumping to conclusions that aren't true. This coming from people that follow a religion that says be humble.

Seriously, all I asked was why you believe in god, and only one person honestly answered it...clearly I chose the wrong forum...

You got disappointed because we did not respond accordingly the way you expected us to. I do apologise for that. But on the other hand, aren't disagreements part and parcel of the learning process?

But as you would notice that you yourself are confused about the definition of God and fail to realise that he/she/it may mean different things/entities/deities to different people and you can not lump them together and shove them in one box as you did in all your posts and expected the answers in the similar fashion.

I gave you the meaning of Ik Ong Kaar as explained in Mool Mantar which you agree with that It is energy that is genderless, formless and timeless and you should be happy to discover that because it identifies with you.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Atheist]

Dear Tejwant Singh Ji,

No, I didn't already have all the answers I was looking for - that is why I asked them in the first place. I was only giving you EXAMPLES of what one might have said - and Lee answered. Again, all I was looking for is WHY you believe in god and WHAT KIND of god - for my own curiosity. Just like me saying "what's your favorite pizza topping?" (mine is mushrooms).

I did not get mad that the rest of you had different answers - I was just saying that no one except Lee answered my original question of curiosity. It'd be like you asking someone what their favorite pizza topping was and they delved into a lengthy discussion about the history of pizza, how it's made, what defines it, etc. when indeed you were looking for "mushrooms, because they taste good cooked." I wasn't upset - I already know you have different viewpoints (you believe in god and I don't - it's not a surprise we have different viewpoints).

So again - I DID NOT already have the answers - those were just examples of what one MIGHT have said...but since they were only examples, I wanted to see what YOU and people here said, because I was curious how a devout Sikh would answer that question (so far, I had only asked christians/catholics/mormons). So I don't think I really proved your point.

Yes of course disagreements are part of the learning process - but we haven't delved into my original question! WHY do you believe in god, and WHAT KIND of god do you believe in. Of course I know we're going to disagree - but I don't know what your position is yet! You have to tell me first. So I didn't get disappointed that you did not respond the way I expected you to, just curious as to why everyone just avoided the original question.

I am not confused about the definition of god. God does not exist. I am not confused about something that does not exist. But I am curious to know why you believe what you believe (and what it is that you believe). I fully understand that different people have different definitions of god (Have you read nothing I've written?) Personal god, hands-on god, hands-off god, pantheistic god, combo of the above - yes I know what these mean, my question was simply which one do YOU believe and WHY? I mean it's a pretty simple question.

It is unbelievable that you said I "fail to realise that he/she/it may mean different things/entities/deities to different people." Of course I understand that! Why else would I have asked "WHAT KIND of god do you believe in?" I mean how much clearer can I be, when I asked you what kind of god do you believe in, doesn't that mean that there is more than one kind of god people believe in? If you asked me what is my favorite pizza topping, doesn't that mean that there is more than one pizza topping? Otherwise why ask?? I don't see how this isn't clear even still, and since I literally cannot make it any clearer, I now know how devout Sikhs answer my questions of curiosity (so yes I have learned something)