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Is Hindu/Sikh A Valid Adherent?

Nov 14, 2004
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Harry ji,

I couldn't find time to respond and later decided not to do it. But now I changed my mind and will comment this once and not bother you anymore in this particular discussion.

Me:
I think one mistake you did was to identify your actions as being “physical attribute”. …..

You:
I disagree, and I will not quote bani, or argue with you, I will relate personal experience, which is all I have. I am an insomniac, I have real trouble sleeping, when I cannot sleep, I tend to nudge my wife, and as she realises how bad my insomnia is, and to use a french expression, soon I am in la petite mort. Lately, and including last night, I lay awake for hours, I decided to have a bit more respect for my wife, …….

Imagine the following:

In a busy shop, you see an opportunity to walk away with a Rolex watch but suddenly think to refrain and not do it.

You see an opportunity to kill the rat which has been sneaking into your house every night and eating things, but experience kindness and refrain.

You are angry and about to shout at someone for an obvious wrong that he did, but see the ugliness of anger and refrain.

You feel horny and about to wake your wife up, but suddenly think that she needs a rest, so you don't wake her up.

Do all these not clearly point to mental actions?
When you steal or kill, these are bodily actions, but are they not conditioned by the mind? What you refer to as discipline, is this not about will, determination and restraint all mental phenomena? Body is body, it is a physical phenomenon and physical phenomenon, unlike mental phenomenon, does not know anything.


Me:
The past is gone; the only basis for right knowledge and understanding is “now”.
Thinking back about the past and drawing from it any lesson is an instance of ignorance about what is now………..

You:
I absolutely disagree with this, and again I will tell you why. I am blessed that I do not look at other women, I do not think about other women, I do not fantasise about other women. I put my hand on my heart and tell you that if a harem of sexy women descended on me, I would not be able to physically perform. Why? because in my youth I indulged in every scenario and fantasy that occurred to me, I have no fantasies left, all the things that I might find myself wishing for, I have not only done, but done to excess, so my past is absolutely important to me, it is my past that has led me to this point where I am today. Hesse, as I have said before, postulated that there were only two ways to enlightenment, through God, and through the flesh, I believe he was correct..

So you still think Hesse had something substantial to say and understood what enlightenment means…..

But frankly I don't understand your response, what point are you making? Besides what I said with reference to the past is not that there is no learning *in* the past, but rather that there is no learning *from thinking about* the past.

And in case you doubt this, allow me draw your attention to the fact of wise people of all traditions, including I believe Sikhism as well, pointing out the uselessness of thinking about the past and future and the importance being in the present. Indeed given that we think almost all the time with attachment, aversion and ignorance, in this particular case of seeking to learn from the past there must also be wrong understanding involved. And this more than anything else, takes one further away from the possibility of understanding the reality of what is “now”.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that one should not underestimate the power of underlying tendencies. And understand also that it is the nature of mental phenomena, both good and bad, that with each arising, the tendency to it accumulates and the only way that the bad ones can become less is through accumulating more and more understanding as to their nature. The reason you don't feel lust towards Scarlett Johansson wearing a bikini and touching you, is more like in spite of your past experiences and not because of it. If you have not directly understood attachment, more of it has and will continue to accumulate each time that it arises.


No, it is the opposite, I am constantly reminded about a past bad, my time in prison, my time as a bankrupt, my time addicted to gambling, my time addicted to drugs/alcohol, women, the lies, the deceit, the shame, lying on a hospital bed facing death from 5 blocked arteries, I wake up every morning and remind myself of those times, and then I look at my wife, my dogs, my simple life, my 1.3L rusty 20 year old Ford, and my eyes fill with tears


You are attached to the story of your life as we all are to ours. What is recalled, how different scenes are arranged and what value is given to each and the overall story is dictated by the ignorance and attachment now. Would you want this to continue on or would you rather develop more understanding of thinking and what motivates the thinking?


that all I ever needed was love of Creator and love of Creation and to be able to follow Hukam, and I am so so grateful that finally my time came and I was ready for it, and still alive to be able to enjoy it. I know the pit of despair, I know hell, you never forget it, you should never forget it, in my opinion. There is much to be learnt from it.

There can be no real learning when ignorance and attachment is at the root. And it is clear that when such thinking goes on, conceit or ego is being encouraged as well. Knowing this, I'm sure you'd not want this to continue, would you?

Touch a flame, you get burnt, touch it often enough, you get burnt a lot, I am not an educated man, nor am I an intelligent man, all I have is the knowledge that I know all the things that can burn, there was never any rational thought, only the desire for more pleasure, which has now been replaced by the desire for more peace. The difference is that the burning has caused an automatic response, it requires no thinking

You do not know thinking well enough then.

Except for instances of the raw experiences of sense objects such as sound, smell, heat, taste and so on, all other experiences involve thinking. The moment you perceive 'fire', already billions of thought processes have taken place, some of which involving conditioned responses based on past experiences. Even Freud was perceptive enough to have noted that the moment there is vague perception of another human being, immediately the reaction "man or woman?" happens. This means that he acknowledged past influences involving much thinking even before one recognizes whether it is a man or woman there. And I'd add that it is ignorance all the way through, and therefore if you judge any of it as worthwhile in terms of knowledge gained, you are only deluding yourself.

That said it could be that on the other hand, one has in the past reacted to a particular situation with wisdom, with kindness, or with restrain. And because of understanding, all kinds of good got developed and more easily arose. But I think that this is not what you are pointing at in your suggestions, because if you were, you'd end up agreeing about the need to understand "now". Instead you are trying to make a case for thinking about the past.


When your thoughts are nothing but a cesspit, but you know in your heart what is right and wrong, don't think, just do what you think is right, and habit will take care of everything else., if someone had given me this advice 20 years ago, maybe I would not have put myself through so much, and my dear parents for that, who I would add never gave up on me.My problem is that I translated thought into action with little consideration to the consequences.

Sometimes we think of doing good, but do not have the necessary energy or zeal. Knowing that this is what we lack can motivate us to right action, but this should not be without understanding because otherwise what invariably happens is that we end up "doing" with ignorance and desire for result.

Indeed when we say "do" and "just do it" and no understanding is present, this is stuff of mischief. While there may be some idea as to the difference between good and evil, one fails at seeing the greater danger in ignorance and attachment to 'self'. This leads to actions aimed at making the self feel good at the expense of knowing what the truth is. And while caught up in the habit, any good maintained can only be due to past accumulated tendencies hence more like in spite of the habit rather than a consequence of it. But there is more.

We identify good with particular outward actions instead of understanding that good as being states of mind, each with different characteristics and functions, for example, kindness is different from morality and both from giving. This leads to overlooking opportunities for good in ordinary situations and going about trying to do good in an idealistic way, driven by self. Indeed often it happens that while we involve in "doing good" in some recognizable way, we do much wrong at other times during our day to day living. For example a businessman may like to give donations to organizations, but is very quick to cut the salary of the housemaid if she breaks some fine chinaware. Or he will hurt anyone in doing business and not feel any shame at all even when it is pointed out to him.


You are absolutely correct, however I would see the above as an improvement, I am now attached to Creator, it is the last and ultimate addiction.

If there is improvement, this must refer not to the attachment, but something else.


As I have stated, I am not a clever man, I am happy that my current state is nothing to do with wisdom, that would be the ultimate answer, but I have not the time to understand, and my understanding needs to be focused on a bigger picture, habit will do for the moment, but again, I concede your point as correct

If there is no wisdom, can anything of value be seen for what it is?
You say on one hand that there is no wisdom now, yet you go on to make a statement about the need to focus on a bigger picture and how important 'habit' is?


Me:
Therefore if one thinks to reduce these instead of just developing more understanding about them, this must be due to wrong understanding with regard to their natures, and any subsequent course of action must be motivated by both attachment itself as well as conceit. The result is suppression of some kind and any idea about one's achievement must be delusory.

You:
Again, correct, I wish I had your intelligence and vision, but in the absence of both, yes, I have to play games with myself to reach the required level of peace and contentment, it is not ideal, but it works for me.

I used to consider myself intelligent, but not anymore. (And this is an example of the deception that comes with thinking in retrospect about oneself) But then again, I don't particularly value intelligence, but wisdom, yes. Wisdom to me is Right Understanding which I consider myself to be only at the kindergarten level given the depth of ignorance. But even at this level I can see that it is wrong to judge the value of anything by whether or not it "works for me". The reason is that for those of us who are still essentially fools, desire arises all the time playing the role of both teacher and of student. So it is the teacher who happily leads and the student happily follow, and both are blind due to the presence of ignorance.

Using my methods, I have rid myself of every addiction I have ever suffered, that is not to say I abstain, I drink, I enjoy good food, I sometimes gamble, rarely, I enjoy lustful moments with my wife, but all in moderation, the last addiction was lust, which I believe I am well on the way to taming, all my addiction is now firmly pointing at Creator, understanding of Creator, the message of Sikhism, the history, the philosophy, it is hopefully my last addiction, I hope I stay addicted, this is one addiction I do not wish to tame, I do not feel I have made great progress, I have little understanding, and a lot of ignorance, but I am slowly finding myself at peace, it is a nice feeling


You can go on with your life as it is without the need to judge any of it as 'progress'. Indeed if you think this way with attachment, this is a step backwards is it not? You should take care not to judge any reduction in sense-indulgence as 'moderation' as this in fact is an aspect of wisdom. If what you do is diversion and / or suppression of some kind, you'd need to know it for what it is and not think that you've made progress in terms of morality and wisdom. And why would someone who seeks to understand, look for peace? So again you should not judge the value of what you do in terms of how much peace you now experience.
 

Navdeep88

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Honestly, Harry Ji, I don't think its a "valid" Adherent. But people will do what they want to do... things like synthesizing religions to suit their vision, without exploring either one. End of the day, their loss.
 

Luckysingh

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If being a sikh/hindhu adherent helps the person achieve salvation or even helps the person to find God.Then there is nothing wrong with that. Why should we assign a value to it ??
On the other hand if it causes confusion and disruption for the person, then they might find more value and ease adhering to one strongly.

If someone who is a non believer like an atheist, is introduced to a sect like nirinkari,radhswami,AKJ etc....etc... AND a certain mix n match faith helps them to believe in one god, one world, one creator... then we shouldn't be critical. As the criticised has helped the person in one way or the other to BELIEVE, it has given the person hope,chance, faith, understanding ....etc...

In this sense, we shouldn't be judging other adherents. This very self judging can actually drive others away from a faith we are trying to protect.
As sikhs, we should accept people who may only want to come half way whilst remaining elsewhere with other half.
This is as long as it is beneficial for them. If they come looking for help and guidance, then we have the right to suggest they keep both legs in one boat and not one leg in one and one in the other.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.?
It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.? FALSE and misconceived notion but applicable to Jewish/christian/islamic way/religion.
It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
Prakash.S.Bagga

Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......

Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS...so to assume that BEFORE the construction of this super Highway..people had "no way" of travelling/going from one place to another..blah blah..is FALSE argument. Before the Highway..there were forest trails..pag-dandees..kachee sarrk..small roads..etc etc...and people did travel along them..and did reach their DESTINATIONS...

Gurmatt is the fast supersonic Concorde..the Discovery Craft...but before that Man did travel using donkeys, camels bicycles..bullock carts..cars and locomotives as well as ships...boats......still this doenst mena that before the concord made air travel at speed of sound..people just sat where they were BORN and died there...
 

Luckysingh

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Is it not worth considering a fact how people were acheiving salvation or even found GOD before advent of Sikh Philosophy.
Can we assert all people before advent of Sikhi were deprived of union with GOD and never achieved salvation.?
It is important to understand the valid and relevent points of any philosophy and respect that.This would enable us to live in harmony with each other.This is the actual need of time .
Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash ji
We can't say it is not worth considering. You mention the actual time of need in the end of your post.
Now, is the time and there are people who have no belief, no faith ...etc.
These people need something to embrace. Even if it means a half way mix,- this would be better than nothing.

When we compare Sikhism to the half way mixtures, then it becomes a much different view. But, when you compare the half way mixtures to nothing, then they themselves become a blessing.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......

Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS...so to assume that BEFORE the construction of this super Highway..people had "no way" of travelling/going from one place to another..blah blah..is FALSE argument. Before the Highway..there were forest trails..pag-dandees..kachee sarrk..small roads..etc etc...and people did travel along them..and did reach their DESTINATIONS...

Gurmatt is the fast supersonic Concorde..the Discovery Craft...but before that Man did travel using donkeys, camels bicycles..bullock carts..cars and locomotives as well as ships...boats......still this doenst mena that before the concord made air travel at speed of sound..people just sat where they were BORN and died there...


There is no doubt what you have stated.But How we take this concept to others that is important.Are we right in rejecting others outrightly and prove ourselves THE BEST.My concern is for the modus operandi
We need to our style of presenting our concept vis a vis others without compromising the Basic Concepts of Sikh Philosophy.
A Banee being refered as Apex of all Banees till date should not beused as a tool to disgarce others viiews rather that this should be used for creation of better and unison understanding.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Jan 17, 2012
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Thats a total misconception jios..Sikhism (I prefer GURMATT) NEVER says..ONLY Gurmatt ensures salvation..or finds God for you.......

Its just THAT Gurmatt is faster and better way...of achieving Union with and discovering Him... Its an ULTRA MODERN 24 Lane SUPER HIGHWAY or autobahn...with NO SPEED LIMITS

Gurmatt is the fast supersonic Concorde..the Discovery CraftQUOTE]

Veerji

Satnaam Just wondered how many people have you met who have achieved union God, with the way you mention.

Most people I have met are still operating in lower conciousness.

In all my researches and studies I have learnt, while we stay in our lower conciousness we believe we are with God, this is because we operate in EGO conciousness.

To be one with GOD means ONE operates in UNconditional Love for all.

Just to be in their prescence raises our conciousness!

In lower conciousness our EGO operates thru us.
We operate in EGO conciousness.
How do we achieve Higher conciousness.
Of course there are many ways the most powerful and quickest way is
method called Kriya Raja Yoga.

This involves Samadhi/meditation and breathing into our chakras.

Its every human beings birthright to raise their Kundalini to achieve communion with God.

Jesus says in his teachings " Do not babble like fools" Look within!

Babble like fools is another way of saying praying loudly is fine however go into your room!

Jesus’ instruction on prayer in Matthew begins this way:
“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you (Matthew 6:5-6).

What does he mean go into your room!
He means go within. Go ino Meditation.

This is exactly what our Gurbani GGS says Meditate, Meditate and Meditate when we meditate we go within and hear the Voice of God!

When we pray loudly God listens to us.
When we meditate we allow ourselves to listen to the Voice of GOD!

Please forgive me if I have upset you in any way

amarjit
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AMARJIT SINGh BAMRAH Ji,
From your post I feel you have misconstrued the message from GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Ji.
He is also telling the same thing what you are presenting in an elaborated way.He is talking THE GURMATi way which is obviously Meditation and Simran.
Now the question we all talk about meditation but no one tells what to meditate as per SGGS and what is Gurmati way of Meditation.?
I hope you can throw some light from your experience of meditation..
Prakash.s.Bagga
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Prakash ji
We can't say it is not worth considering. You mention the actual time of need in the end of your post.
Now, is the time and there are people who have no belief, no faith ...etc.
These people need something to embrace. Even if it means a half way mix,- this would be better than nothing.

When we compare Sikhism to the half way mixtures, then it becomes a much different view. But, when you compare the half way mixtures to nothing, then they themselves become a blessing.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh

I am personally against any mixture that is harmful for the identity of both mixing philosophies.I am telling only understanding each without compromise of identity.Is there no way to go like this?
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Jan 17, 2012
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AMARJIT SINGh BAMRAH Ji,
From your post I feel you have misconstrued the message from GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Ji.
He is also telling the same thing what you are presenting in an elaborated way.He is talking THE GURMATi way which is obviously Meditation and Simran.
Now the question we all talk about meditation but no one tells what to meditate as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and what is Gurmati way of Meditation.?
I hope you can throw some light from your experience of meditation..
Prakash.s.Bagga


I am sorry If I have misconstrued giayani ji
I did not mean to.

Meditation to me is to breathe into our chakras
We have 7 main chakras this allows us to increase our spiritual wattage to harness the Holy spirit and the Shakti of the Divine.

At the same time we also practise Kechari Mudra which allows the Manosovar Lake within us to activate. This allows the Amrit to start flowing within our body and into all our Nadis

amarjit
 
Aug 28, 2010
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I am sorry If I have misconstrued giayani ji
I did not mean to.

Meditation to me is to breathe into our chakras
We have 7 main chakras this allows us to increase our spiritual wattage to harness the Holy spirit and the Shakti of the Divine.

At the same time we also practise Kechari Mudra which allows the Manosovar Lake within us to activate. This allows the Amrit to start flowing within our body and into all our Nadis

amarjit

Is this stated so in SGGS ji? pl give me quotes to validate your stated point of view in respect of meditation.
Prakash.s.Bagga
 
Jan 17, 2012
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Is this stated so in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? pl give me quotes to validate your stated point of view in respect of meditation.
Prakash.s.Bagga



English Translation: Extract from The Sikh Guru Granth Sahib

RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: It is beyond the three qualities; it remains untouched.
The seekers and Siddhas do not know it. There is a chamber filled with jewels,
overflowing with Ambrosial Nectar, in the Guru’s Treasury.
|| 1 || This thing is wonderful and amazing! It cannot be described. I
t is an unfathomable object, O Siblings of Destiny! || 1 ||
Its value cannot be estimated at all; what can anyone say about it?
By speaking and describing it, it cannot be understood; only one who sees it realizes it.
|| 2 || Only the Creator Lord knows it; what can any poor creature do?
Only He Himself knows His own state and extent. The Lord Himself is the treasure overflowing.
|| 3 || Tasting such Ambrosial Nectar, the mind remains satisfied and satiated.
Says Nanak, my hopes are fulfilled; I have found the Guru’s Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 ||
=
 
Aug 28, 2010
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English Translation: Extract from The Sikh Guru Granth Sahib

RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: It is beyond the three qualities; it remains untouched.
The seekers and Siddhas do not know it. There is a chamber filled with jewels,
overflowing with Ambrosial Nectar, in the Guru’s Treasury.
|| 1 || This thing is wonderful and amazing! It cannot be described. I
t is an unfathomable object, O Siblings of Destiny! || 1 ||
Its value cannot be estimated at all; what can anyone say about it?
By speaking and describing it, it cannot be understood; only one who sees it realizes it.
|| 2 || Only the Creator Lord knows it; what can any poor creature do?
Only He Himself knows His own state and extent. The Lord Himself is the treasure overflowing.
|| 3 || Tasting such Ambrosial Nectar, the mind remains satisfied and satiated.
Says Nanak, my hopes are fulfilled; I have found the Guru’s Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 ||
=

Pl look at the following sabad
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਪਾਠੁ ਪੜਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਓ ਨਿਵਲਿ ਭੁਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ

पाठु पड़िओ अरु बेदु बीचारिओ निवलि भुअंगम साधे ॥

Pāṯẖ paṛi▫o ar beḏ bīcẖāri▫o nival bẖu▫angam sāḏẖe.

They read scriptures, and contemplate the Vedas; they practice the inner cleansing techniques of Yoga, and control of the breath.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਸੰਗੁ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਅਧਿਕ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

पंच जना सिउ संगु न छुटकिओ अधिक अह्मबुधि बाधे ॥१॥

Pancẖ janā si▫o sang na cẖẖutki▫o aḏẖik ahaʼn▫buḏẖ bāḏẖe. ||1||

But they cannot escape from the company of the five passions; they are increasingly bound to egotism. ||1||


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ

पिआरे इन बिधि मिलणु न जाई मै कीए करम अनेका ॥

Pi▫āre in biḏẖ milaṇ na jā▫ī mai kī▫e karam anekā.

O Beloved, this is not the way to meet the Lord; I have performed these rituals so many times.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ਰਹਾਉ

हारि परिओ सुआमी कै दुआरै दीजै बुधि बिबेका ॥ रहाउ ॥

Hār pari▫o su▫āmī kai ḏu▫ārai ḏījai buḏẖ bibekā. Rahā▫o.


This sabad is in Raagu SORATH at pp641

If you look at the complete sabad you can have better views about the methods we are asked to adopt.
Prakash.s.baaga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
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sanj007

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Dec 13, 2010
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1) As regards Hinduism, there is no caste system as per scriptures:
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/
The concept of caste is relatively new. Vedas contain no word that can be considered a synonym for ‘caste’. The two words commonly considered to mean ‘caste’ are Jaati and Varna. However the truth is that, all the three mean completely different things.
Caste is a European innovation having no semblance in Vedic culture.

now for scriptural facts:
Yajurved 26.2:
The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.
Atharvaved 19.32.8:
O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.

Lord Krishna says, that God resides in hearts of all beings, ie acceptanace of all beings.
Moksha is end game for hindu faith, ie merging with God, but this can only happen if a person leads a noble life, now basic question how can there be discriminatory caste of society and how can one gain Moksha, the two dont reconcile, but this question does not get asked.
Social evil of caste is not in the scriptures and thats just a basic fact!
 
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Ambarsaria

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Dogra veer one comment on the following from your post,

The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden.
Dogra ji good intentions aside, when the classes are identified as in excerpted above from your post, the Genie is out of the bottle. The culture and classes will create the rest of discrimination.

In this case the Brahmins being generally the holders of ancient wisdom and carrying it forward, created and supported a cultural-religious paradigm that was good for them and forever so. As long as Brahmin was on top it really mattered little to them. Hence a system with Brahmins on pedestal and at top. Rest is history and white washing and not practicality of situations.

Reagrds.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Caste arises on its own in any given society. We can see parallels between the medieval Indian caste system (and other caste systems) and our society today.

Brahmins are akin to the western scientists, theologians and philosophers. Do you really think they have power and are running society their way? No. (Many of my professors would complain in class about how the laws are not in synch with scientific knowledge and what we know about human beings and their behaviour.) The large wealthy corporations who control the scientists by funding their research have power. The businessmen who run these corporations have power. The scientists, theologians and philosophers, who possess knowledge and wisdom, should be guiding us (Who would you want to guide you? One who genuinely seeks the truth or one who genuinely seeks wealth?) rather than advertisements and other media, news, internet. But they actually possess very little power compared to the businessmen.

The Vaishya, business class, has risen to the top with the introduction of capitalism. They are the ones who control the ruling Kshtriya class, the politicians, and through them and through their funded media, they control us.

I don't think Brahmins were at the top in India (today they are in worse condition). The caste system ideally wanted them at the top, yes, (and for good reasons) but in reality, in terms of wealth, property-wise, no. It was the ruling Kshatriya class at the top, but they also had more responsibilities and obligations.

Brahmins in India have become a minority - YouTube
 
Aug 28, 2010
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There seems to be misconception that caste system has been rejected in SGGS.
The message of Gurbanne is common to all four caste System prevailing at that time.
When a Sikh becomes khalsaa The caste is Automatically vanished.So it is the Khalsaa concept of Sikhisim which can abolish the caste System .Otherwise the system is going to stay as such.
Prakash.s.Bagga
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
1,116
72
Caste arises on its own in any given society. We can see parallels between the medieval Indian caste system (and other caste systems) and our society today.

Brahmins are akin to the western scientists, theologians and philosophers. Do you really think they have power and are running society their way? No. (Many of my professors would complain in class about how the laws are not in synch with scientific knowledge and what we know about human beings and their behaviour.) The large wealthy corporations who control the scientists by funding their research have power. The businessmen who run these corporations have power. The scientists, theologians and philosophers, who possess knowledge and wisdom, should be guiding us (Who would you want to guide you? One who genuinely seeks the truth or one who genuinely seeks wealth?) rather than advertisements and other media, news, internet. But they actually possess very little power compared to the businessmen.

The Vaishya, business class, has risen to the top with the introduction of capitalism. They are the ones who control the ruling Kshtriya class, the politicians, and through them and through their funded media, they control us.

I don't think Brahmins were at the top in India (today they are in worse condition). The caste system ideally wanted them at the top, yes, (and for good reasons) but in reality, in terms of wealth, property-wise, no. It was the ruling Kshatriya class at the top, but they also had more responsibilities and obligations.

Brahmins in India have become a minority - YouTube

The concept of any community being considered as Major or Minor is latest only.
The Brahmins always expected to be treated as no-1 by other caste people by virtue of the exclusive possesor of THE DIVINE knowledge.
But with pssage of time and complete change in the pattern of living and thinking they could not maintain thei reputation of being considered as eexclusive caste.This resuls in thei being considered as Minor now.
So nothing is forever and nothing should be taken for guaranted .a lesson for every community lies in this .
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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