Is Hindu/Sikh A Valid Adherent?

[bscheema]

i think talking about who is more sikh than me and you. fighting cold war on the meaning of shabds , molding it like you want ,and taking Gurbani Guru in between is not a write thing,...
there are many authors came and are still there defining Gurbani. is there something coming out of it ... ?:grinningsingh:

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfatehji

Hinduism has reincarnation, Sikhism does not
Hinduism has Karma, Sikhism does not


I'm sorry to disagree with the reincarnation and karma issue, which has been mentioned previously in other posts.

In the Guru Granth Sahib both issues are repeatedly mentioned-
A Sikh's ultimate goal is to achieve Mukti or salvation thus escaping the endless cycle of 84 lak reincarnations.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji page 4

aape bhij aape hi khaahu
Nanak hukme avhu jahu
you shall harvest what you plant
says Nanak,by the hukam of gods command, we come and go in reincarnation.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji page 2

Karmi avae kapra nadhri mokh duar
by the karma of past actions,the robe of this physical body is obtained,By his grace,the gate of liberation is found.

The soul transmigrates from one body or species to another until it comes in unity with God. The hukam of God and the physical aspects of the soul in a physical life form are determined by the past and previous karma.

This understanding is made quite clear throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Luckyji, if it were that clear, there would not be articles like the following,

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/reincarnation.htm

Getting back to the question of Sikh/Hindu adherency. I feel that if a Hindu familyfor eg. has a member that becomes a sikh, then that person will obviously respect and acknowledge both faiths and vica versa.

As a Sikh, we should respect and acknowledge all of humanity- as we are all One within the One.
I don't believe that we have the right to judge the integrity of someone claiming to be a sikh/hindu and we have no right to judge them and class them or put them outside the boundaries of Sikhism feeling that they are not good enough to be a hindu or sikh..
'Ek onkaar' and God should dictate these.

Waheguru

Let me reaffirm my respect for all religions, my point is very simple, Sikhism has worked hard to leave behind the many Vedic practices and rituals that have penetrated it over the years, I feel uncomfortable with Sikh/Hindu views being passed of as Sikh when they can be misleading to younger people. It is not the view I have a problem with, it is when the view is looking to find validation within Sikhi when it clearly cannot, due to contradiction.

 

[Luckysingh]

Harryji

This understanding is made quite clear throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Luckyji, if it were that clear, there would not be articles like the following,

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/reincarnation.htm

with reference to the above article by Baldev Singh, he is talking about the caste system together with reincarnation and karma. This combined trilogy as according to Varna Ashrama Dharma/caste system is what is rejected by Guru Nanak and sikhism. Sikhi makes it clear that we don't transmigrate from one cast to another according to good or bad karma. But we ALL go through 84 lak cycle of different species until we gain human form. It is the Hukam or will of God that puts us all in different places to encounter our different paths in life which are in line with karma. Not that we simply move from one cast to another as believed at that time.

 

[Kamala]

I guess I am a sanatan sikh then. I know what Sanatan Sikhi is even before I came her but I wasn't sure. Also the guru ji even quotes them in the dasam granth. thanks.

 

[Kamala]

But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION (please don't twist the words):

Why does the story of ravidas meeting ganga devi always be mentioned in sikhism? As in them being shown as they are real.

 

[Harry Haller]

Kamala Bhainji

There are lots of other Gods mentioned in the SGGS, but they must be read in context.

In Sikhism there is only one God, and this is the starting block, our Guruji obviously had a lot of respect for Hinduism to have included stories that agreed with Sikh morality and philosophy

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Kamala bhenji, the lines highlighted don't mean that Devi Ganga came in front of Kabeer ji and broke his chains (probably using some saw).

Ganga (and its waves) are metaphor to the swelling of knowledge and wisdom within the soul as it breaks the chains of the mind. Hope you enjoy the Shabad below.

ਗੰਗ ਗੁਸਾਇਨਿ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥
The mother Ganges is deep and profound.

ਜੰਜੀਰ ਬਾਂਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਖਰੇ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੧॥
Tied up in chains, they took Kabeer there. ||1||

ਮਨੁ ਨ ਡਿਗੈ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਡਰਾਇ ॥
My mind was not shaken; why should my body be afraid?

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
My consciousness remained immersed in the Lotus Feet of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਗੰਗਾ ਕੀ ਲਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਟੁਟੀ ਜੰਜੀਰ ॥
The waves of the Ganges broke the chains,

ਮ੍ਰਿਗਛਾਲਾ ਪਰ ਬੈਠੇ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੨॥
and Kabeer was seated on a deer skin. ||2||

ਕਹਿ ਕੰਬੀਰ ਕੋਊ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਸਾਥ ॥
Says Kabeer, I have no friend or companion.

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਰਾਖਨ ਹੈ ਰਘੁਨਾਥ ॥੩॥੧੦॥੧੮॥
On the water, and on the land, the Lord is my Protector.

 

[Harry Haller]

Harryji

This understanding is made quite clear throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Luckyji, if it were that clear, there would not be articles like the following,

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/reincarnation.htm

with reference to the above article by Baldev Singh, he is talking about the caste system together with reincarnation and karma. This combined trilogy as according to Varna Ashrama Dharma/caste system is what is rejected by Guru Nanak and sikhism. Sikhi makes it clear that we don't transmigrate from one cast to another according to good or bad karma. But we ALL go through 84 lak cycle of different species until we gain human form. It is the Hukam or will of God that puts us all in different places to encounter our different paths in life which are in line with karma. Not that we simply move from one cast to another as believed at that time.

If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......

Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should

Majority of the Sikhs agree that Guru Nanak rejected the caste system. Therefore a question logically arises: If Guru Nanak rejected the caste system then why would he accept its underlying justifications; namely both the karma and reincarnation?

Nanakian philosophy is based on logic, reason, skepticism, awareness, reality, and other factors often associated with critical thinking. It is not based on faith; Guru Nanak urges us to use critical (discerning) intellect in every walk of life.

Most often we encounter his references to the ideas of reincarnation in the AGGS. Just because the Guru is expressing this idea, it doesn’t automatically mean he approves of it. At the least it means that the Guru is conscious of such Hindu beliefs and certainly not giving his accent to the belief as part of his own (Nanakian) philosophy. We, Sikhs, must be extremely careful of this and approach the topic with caution, careful analysis, and proper discussion.

In our existing Punjabi vocabulary and its former usage there is no expressed distinctions between reincarnation and the theory of evolution; they both lie on each other. It is only in the last few decades some of us have smelled the burning rat and decided to reassess what the Gurus espoused; thanks in part to the Western sciences imparting us the gift of critical knowledge of evolutionary biology. Given this, the new knowledge, it is incredibly refreshing to read Gurbani.

Besides, the Sikh Gurus rejected the notion of past life or the life after death, and made it abundantly clear that the present life is the only chance to realize God. For example: O my mind, my dear friend, this is the time for you to meet the Creator. Moreover, this opportunity will last only as long as the body is healthy and full of vitality. AGGS, M 1, p. 20 Take advantage of your birth as a human, this is your only opportunity to meet God. AGGS, M 5, p. 378 “Don’t look to the past, make efforts to make your future life successful by meeting God, because you won’t be born again,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 5, p. 1096 “You won’t be born again, take some measures to obtain salvation right now. Praising the Merciful One, will take you across the ocean of worldly temptations,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 9, p. 220

This is an extremely interesting piece of writing, maybe you should read it in its entirety and then repost your thoughts,

thank you

 

[Luckysingh]

If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......

Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should


This is an extremely interesting piece of writing, maybe you should read it in its entirety and then repost your thoughts,

thank you

Gurfateh Harryji

Thank you for expressing your thoughts.
I must say, that I did read the article entirely,before I posted, and not just the beginning.

We are talking about beliefs here and not something that anyone can prove for certain. Bearing this in mind, I totally respect your belief and thoughts and can understand how you arrive at your conclusion.

But my derived endpoint is different. This is the whole reason I joined the SPN- to learn.
I came here to be exposed to and absorb all views and opinions and then to extract,retain and put to use what I found logical, correct and interesting. We all learn from ourselves and eachother.

Like I said, I respect you for your intepretation of matters, regardless of my agreeing or disagreeing.
We can only make each other come to their own personal conclusions by laying out the information and facts available. Not instilling or dictating beliefs, that is the beauty of Sikhism.

I'm glad that everday can be a learning curve with the help of colleagues and sangat and look forward to learning whilst respecting.


Waheguru
Lucky Singh

 

[BhagatSingh]

Harry ji,
Luckysingh ji is very humble. I am not so much. That is a poorly researched and presented article. It's not even worth discussing, it is basically faulty reasoning, with quotes do not support his conclusions, and contradictions. You are better off reading about various Eastern Philosophies and Spiritual Traditions, and how they set-up a world-view (which they all pretty much endorse) and the best way for a man to live in the world. Of course, how to live is applicable without any specific beliefs but you cannot understand a tradition without understanding the beliefs which they use to motivate and encourage one to practice.

You are better off reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Type in various topics your are interested here in srigranth.org Keywords like reincarnation, incarnation, soul (more advanced form is to use gurmukhi once you figure out the gurmukhi words for your topics) and read what it says about them. Then increase the depth of reading by reading the two teekas that are available there.

 

[kds1980]

If you are not going to fully read links, please do not comment on them as if you have......

Allow me to quote for you, although I do have better things to do this morning, but as you have merely read the first few lines and made up your own mind as to the rest, I feel I should

Majority of the Sikhs agree that Guru Nanak rejected the caste system. Therefore a question logically arises: If Guru Nanak rejected the caste system then why would he accept its underlying justifications; namely both the karma and reincarnation?

Nanakian philosophy is based on logic, reason, skepticism, awareness, reality, and other factors often associated with critical thinking. It is not based on faith; Guru Nanak urges us to use critical (discerning) intellect in every walk of life.

Most often we encounter his references to the ideas of reincarnation in the AGGS. Just because the Guru is expressing this idea, it doesn’t automatically mean he approves of it. At the least it means that the Guru is conscious of such Hindu beliefs and certainly not giving his accent to the belief as part of his own (Nanakian) philosophy. We, Sikhs, must be extremely careful of this and approach the topic with caution, careful analysis, and proper discussion.

In our existing Punjabi vocabulary and its former usage there is no expressed distinctions between reincarnation and the theory of evolution; they both lie on each other. It is only in the last few decades some of us have smelled the burning rat and decided to reassess what the Gurus espoused; thanks in part to the Western sciences imparting us the gift of critical knowledge of evolutionary biology. Given this, the new knowledge, it is incredibly refreshing to read Gurbani.

Besides, the Sikh Gurus rejected the notion of past life or the life after death, and made it abundantly clear that the present life is the only chance to realize God. For example: O my mind, my dear friend, this is the time for you to meet the Creator. Moreover, this opportunity will last only as long as the body is healthy and full of vitality. AGGS, M 1, p. 20 Take advantage of your birth as a human, this is your only opportunity to meet God. AGGS, M 5, p. 378 “Don’t look to the past, make efforts to make your future life successful by meeting God, because you won’t be born again,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 5, p. 1096 “You won’t be born again, take some measures to obtain salvation right now. Praising the Merciful One, will take you across the ocean of worldly temptations,” says Nanak. AGGS, M 9, p. 220

This is an extremely interesting piece of writing, maybe you should read it in its entirety and then repost your thoughts,

thank you

Harry ji

Sikhism is now divided in sects .The belief that there no reincarnation or karma came from Sikh missionaries sect in 90s or early 2000s upto then the theory of transmigration was unchallenged .This theory is still accepted by very tiny minority of Sikhs.Sikh scholars like Gyani Sant singh maskeen were firm believer in theory of transmigration of soul
Read the following


------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=1177

Q29. What happens to the individual after death?




Human life is just a stage in the upward march of the soul. The individual has got birth as a human being, after going through lower forms of life. Human life is the final stage in the soul's progress to divinity. It is for us to make the most of this opportunity and thereby end our cycle of transmigration.

Death means the destruction of the physical self. The ashes and bone dust mix with the elements. But the soul which leaves the body, awaits a new dwelling. Just as a person casts off worn-out garments and puts on other that are new, so the subtle soul casts off the worn-out body and dwells in a new form. If there were no continuance of the soul after death, how could it become perfect to merit union with the Almighty?

Sikhism believes in the immortality of the soul. The devotee has no fear of the pangs of death. In fact he welcomes death, because it gives him a chance for the merger into Divinity. The evil person, however, dreads death. For him, it will lead to the unending cycle of birth and death. After death, man comes to the next birth according to what he deserves. If he has been wicked and evil, he takes birth in the lower species. If he has done good deeds, he takes birth in a good family. The cycle of birth and death keeps the soul away from Divinity. It can merge with God, only if the individual, by spiritual effort, has amassed the capital of the Name(the Holy spirit as understood by Christians) and thus lives with the Holy Spirit.

Guru Arjan in the Sukhmani dwells on the sad plight of the soul which is not endowed with the Name. The soul in its lonely march through darkness can only find sustenance in the word of God. Otherwise it feels the weariness and pain of isolation.

The soul, Jiva, is a part of God. It is deathless like Him. Before creation, it lived with God. After Creation it takes bodily forms according to His Will. The soul is, however, nourished by virtue and meditation on "The name". The transmigration of the soul can come to an end by meditation and divine grace.

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfateh Harryji

Thank you for expressing your thoughts.
I must say, that I did read the article entirely,before I posted, and not just the beginning.

We are talking about beliefs here and not something that anyone can prove for certain. Bearing this in mind, I totally respect your belief and thoughts and can understand how you arrive at your conclusion.

But my derived endpoint is different. This is the whole reason I joined the SPN- to learn.
I came here to be exposed to and absorb all views and opinions and then to extract,retain and put to use what I found logical, correct and interesting. We all learn from ourselves and eachother.

Like I said, I respect you for your intepretation of matters, regardless of my agreeing or disagreeing.
We can only make each other come to their own personal conclusions by laying out the information and facts available. Not instilling or dictating beliefs, that is the beauty of Sikhism.

I'm glad that everday can be a learning curve with the help of colleagues and sangat and look forward to learning whilst respecting.


Waheguru
Lucky Singh

Luckyji

Let me make myself very clear here, I am fully aware I have a minority viewpoint on this, however, this article does rather suggest that the interpretation you suggested is not as clear or as definitive as you might think. Do I wish to convert everyone I speak to? no, absolutely not, you have come to your beliefs, I have come to mine, but we are both Sikhs, and the fact is, what happens after death is largely irrelevent, as Sikhs we both realise that it is what we do while we are alive that counts.

I fully respect your viewpoint, Veerji
Gurfateh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Once i went to a zoo in Imphal....and there was asign in HINDI and English (obvioulsy )..showing a picture of the Bengal Tiger with the "Pirate sign" of skull and bones underneath. The words said" Only those who beleive very strongly in Re-incarnation/Life after death....may approach the Tiger Cage fearlessly....ALL OTHERS STAY AWAY !!

I obvioulsy took the advise and Stayed at a SAFE DISTANCE....becasue as a SIKH..i DONT BELIEVE in. or fear what will happen after the Tiger has me for lunch...I FEAR and Care for the NOW and HERE...thats what GURBANI is for..Here and NOW.

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji,
Luckysingh ji is very humble. I am not so much. That is a poorly researched and presented article. It's not even worth discussing, it is basically faulty reasoning, with quotes do not support his conclusions, and contradictions. You are better off reading about various Eastern Philosophies and Spiritual Traditions, and how they set-up a world-view (which they all pretty much endorse) and the best way for a man to live in the world. Of course, how to live is applicable without any specific beliefs but you cannot understand a tradition without understanding the beliefs which they use to motivate and encourage one to practice.

You are better off reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Type in various topics your are interested here in srigranth.org Keywords like reincarnation, incarnation, soul (more advanced form is to use gurmukhi once you figure out the gurmukhi words for your topics) and read what it says about them. Then increase the depth of reading by reading the two teekas that are available there.

Bhagat Singhji

I actually found this article in complete agreement with my private thoughts on the matter, it touched on many theories I had already arrived at, and I was extremely pleased to find it and read it. The Author has similar views on most facets of Sikhism, and most are at odds with your views, as indeed are mine winkingmunda

I have no wish to study other philosophies at present, as I find studying one hard enough, maybe when I have come to some concrete conclusions like your goodself, then I will have the luxury of doing so.

The SGGS is indeed for me, the fountain of all wisdom, and I have no shame in admitting that until my ability to read and understand Gurbani as the writer intended it to be understood and read, I have to rely on english translations, some of which are nearer the point than others, as interpretation is an extremely personal thing. Of course there is also my inner God voice which I am guided by, so between my limited Gurbani, certain translations, sangat, and my inner God, I have come to my conclusions that work for me. My conclusions would not work for you, as you are not me, anymore than yours would work for me!

But that is the beauty of Sikhi, We have a broad framework to work within, but at some point, ones view must be entirely personal on subjects that can be seen in many different lights, meditation, reincarnation, meat.. to name but a few.

Gurfateh

 

[Harry Haller]

Kdsji,

I had already read this but thanks for the link, I think I covered anything I wished to say in the last two posts.

 

[Kamala]

Well the river of ganges is ruled by Ganga Devi and is her, well personified.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sure Harry ji,
I am willing to discuss the conclusions you reached through your reasoning and reading of SGGS.

 

[Harry Haller]

BhagatSinghji,

Its quite simple veerji, all references to rebirth are simple changes in personality, all references to animals are traits of animals we possess through evolution.

 

[amarjit singh bamrah]

Re: Is Hindu/Sikh a Valid Adherent? reincarnation

Tuesday, January 31, 2012

Ang 702 • Guru Arjan Dev Ji • Raag Jaithsree
Listen to the Hukamnama Audio Listen to Kirtan from this Hukam

English Translation:
Jaitsree, Fifth Mehl: After wandering through so many incarnations, I have come to Your Sanctuary. Save me - lift my body up out of the deep, dark pit of the world, and attach me to Your feet. ||1||Pause|| I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure. Please attach me to the hem of the robe of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; help me to cross over the terrible river. ||1|| Comforts, riches and the sweet pleasures of Maya - do not implant these within your mind. Slave Nanak is satisfied and satiated by the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; his only ornamentation is the love of the Lord's Name. ||2||8||12||

​

Punjabi Translation:

Hindi Hukamnama:

 

[Harry Haller]

ਜੈਤਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
जैतसरी महला ५ ॥
Jaiṯsarī mėhlā 5.
Jaitsree, Fifth Mehl:
ਆਏ ਅਨਿਕ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਸਰਣੀ ॥
आए अनिक जनम भ्रमि सरणी ॥
Ā▫e anik janam bẖaram sarṇī.
After wandering through so many incarnations, I have come to Your Sanctuary.
ਉਧਰੁ ਦੇਹ ਅੰਧ ਕੂਪ ਤੇ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਚਰਣੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
उधरु देह अंध कूप ते लावहु अपुनी चरणी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Uḏẖar ḏeh anḏẖ kūp ṯe lāvhu apunī cẖarṇī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Save me - lift my body up out of the deep, dark pit of the world, and attach me to Your feet. ||1||Pause||
ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਨਾਹਿਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਣੀ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु किछु करमु न जाना नाहिन निरमल करणी ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kicẖẖ karam na jānā nāhin nirmal karṇī.
I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure.
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਅੰਚਲਿ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਬਿਖਮ ਨਦੀ ਜਾਇ ਤਰਣੀ ॥੧॥
साधसंगति कै अंचलि लावहु बिखम नदी जाइ तरणी ॥१॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ kai ancẖal lāvhu bikẖam naḏī jā▫e ṯarṇī. ||1||
Please attach me to the hem of the robe of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; help me to cross over the terrible river. ||1||
ਸੁਖ ਸੰਪਤਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਸ ਮੀਠੇ ਇਹ ਨਹੀ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਰਣੀ ॥
सुख स्मपति माइआ रस मीठे इह नही मन महि धरणी ॥
Sukẖ sampaṯ mā▫i▫ā ras mīṯẖe ih nahī man mėh ḏẖarṇī.
Comforts, riches and the sweet pleasures of Maya - do not implant these within your mind.
ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਪਾਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰੰਗ ਆਭਰਣੀ ॥੨॥੮॥੧੨॥
हरि दरसन त्रिपति नानक दास पावत हरि नाम रंग आभरणी ॥२॥८॥१२॥
Har ḏarsan ṯaripaṯ Nānak ḏās pāvaṯ har nām rang ābẖarṇī. ||2||8||12||
Slave Nanak is satisfied and satiated by the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; his only ornamentation is the love of the Lord's Name. ||2||8||12||


Essence, my interpretation only, others may feel different,

Having gone through many personalities, I am ready to take on yours
Lift me up so that my ego is no more
I have lived my life so far devoid of your word, devoid of your spiritual presence
In the company of like minded souls, I find assistance in finding your word, to be like you
Only when my mind is yours will I be free of the five thieves
Student Nanak is blessed to be in this state, the only thing of value is to have a mind like yours