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Atheism Is Atheism The Ultimate Sikhi?

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Atheism Is Atheism The Ultimate Sikhi?

Seeker2013

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are you going to answer any of my questions?
why don't you go and read SGGS yourself . or rather pick up a translation . Why ask me ? you're not going to agree with me anyways . I could be fallible, but not the guru, right ?
Again, I would rather give you GO READ for yourself :)
 

Harry Haller

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The SGGS did not make the statements. You did. I am afraid you cannot shift responsibility so easily, now, are you able to answer my questions or not?
 

Seeker2013

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Yes SGGS didn't . I made them on the fly. Happy, are you now ??!!!!!
 

Shaheen

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What is the purpose of following Sikhi path as opposed to Atheism?

Om Shanti
 

japjisahib04

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What is the purpose of following Sikhi path as opposed to Atheism?
The purpose of life is to live healthy, meaningful life and to stop reincarnating while living. There is no life after physical death. There is no heaven after physical death. What I saw yesterday happening at Mecca reminded me guru's word. Afterall purpose of visiting Mecca and perform haj is live and serve humanity? If that holy place does not protect your physical life then what is all this.
 

Dev singh

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Hello everyone,

I would like to put forward the proposition that only in atheism lies the ultimate ability to do gods work in this world. This is not as stupid as it sounds, as I will explain.

I come from a background of Khatri Sikhs (where appearance really is everything!), my parents are extremely devoted to the teachings of the gurus, and take religion very seriously. Having said that they are enlightened enough to accept me and my idiot brother, and have never tried to bring us back to the fold once we had taken the decision to cut our hair. In fact, I do recall my father having a discussion, in india, regarding young men who marry, look like gursikhs, but are indulging in extra marital afairs The general consensus was that as long as no one knew, it was ok. My father remarked that better he brought up an atheist son with a white wife rather than live a lie. (good old dad)

If you take that line of thought all the way, what does that leave me with regarding my upbringing as a sikh and as an atheist? Well as an atheist, I dislike ceremony and rituals, but my sikh upbringing, and the many stories of how sikhs would help anyone in distress inspired me to try and be a rock for those around me. In time, I met a welsh lady, whose devotion to people and animals put me to shame, a nurse, she rarely gets home on time, she is also completely incapable of walking past any animal or human in any sort of distress. For me, I get little pleasure in the act of kindness, I see it as more of a responsibility as a member of the human race, however she genuinely gets pleasure out of kind acts.

Now if we were both sikhs, we would have the blessing of god in our efforts, but we are not, and for now I speak for her, as I tend to curse inwardly when I come across a situation, as I feel I have to assist, and even then, I will offer my assistance in the hope it will not be needed. She however will go out of her way to help anyone, not in the name of god, but in the name of compassion. As a society we get more and more blinded to human misery around us, you only have to go to any third world country to see the indifference that most people have towards the poor, the hungry, the ill.

I would take it one step further, if like us, you have no wish to be saved, nor any wish to spend eternity in heaven with god, then all self improvement in that area is a huge waste of time, why waste time praying when you could be making a difference. (sorry i do not mean to offend anyone with that last comment, I know from my mother how important praying is to her, she would wither and die if she should not recite her beloved gurbani)

So what will happen to my wife, who has no interest in either god, or the saving of her soul, (but who will quite happily make me drive 10 miles because some pensioner cannot get a taxi home at the december sales). We have discussed what will happen when I have died, and she has made it clear her intention to spend the rest of her life in a pinglaghar in india, and maybe start a small animal sanctuary, but when she dies, she expects nothing more than to be dust.Although she shows none of the physical or spiritual aspects of being a sikh, to me, she is one of the most able sikh women I have ever met.

So at what point does living a good sikh life become selfish, at what point are you thinking of your salvation, rather than the effect of your actions, surely the best sikh is an atheist sikh, whose only interest is how to lessen the sea of suffering on this earth, rather than have his own salvation at the forefront of his mind.

Thank you to anyone who has read this, and please do not think that I do not understand the bliss that a spiritual connection with the almighty brings, that is not in question, although thinking of the gurus and balance, we are both clearly missing a sword somewhere

I think you for posting your life experience .
One have to know one self.
To know self is very very hard. It take lot of time and effort to understad self. To understand one have to go out of self. Then look at self than one can know.
look at person as a person. Not his cast and his education or his religion. Many people trying to safe people they them self get drown in deep and deep.

Dev
 

Harkiran Kaur

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The purpose of life is to live healthy, meaningful life and to stop reincarnating while living. There is no life after physical death. There is no heaven after physical death. What I saw yesterday happening at Mecca reminded me guru's word. Afterall purpose of visiting Mecca and perform haj is live and serve humanity? If that holy place does not protect your physical life then what is all this.
There is not life as we know it (physically)... but there is no ceasing of existence. We don't just 'cease' to exist. It's more like waking up from a dream and remembering who we are.
 

Dev singh

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There is not life as we know it (physically)... but there is no ceasing of existence. We don't just 'cease' to exist. It's more like waking up from a dream and remembering who we are.

This is very confusing First u say there is no phycal life and we cease, Then u say we don't just cease. Then u say we wake up from dream?? I believe there are 95% or more believe in heaven and hell.
Yesterday some one was arguing with me that there is god. if there is god then he created us then we must go some place after we die///

Who do we believe what do we believe? Some one should make it clear so we r not lost.
 

Dev singh

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What is the purpose of following Sikhi path as opposed to Atheism?

Om Shanti

They say we r Atheism. The word ism is used for religion. That mean Atheism is religion. I had talk with them they claim they are not religion but they can not explain. They have rile regulation. They take money they have council Soon they will call them self new religion.
Radha Suami started about less then 200 years now they are close to Sikhs. It is all to make money. They speak very gently . It nothing else just religion. One thing is that Radhe Suami group got big with out fighting/. Where as Sikhs fight with each other. That is shame when in Harmander the swords we out just to take control of mic
 

Harkiran Kaur

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This is very confusing First u say there is no phycal life and we cease, Then u say we don't just cease. Then u say we wake up from dream?? I believe there are 95% or more believe in heaven and hell.
Yesterday some one was arguing with me that there is god. if there is god then he created us then we must go some place after we die///

Who do we believe what do we believe? Some one should make it clear so we r not lost.
I have never said we cease to exist. That have been some others on here. I said the 'character' ceases to exist. But I am NOT the character. Heaven and Hell are still constructs. They still have form. Ultimate reality is formless (pure consciousness bliss) of being ONE... But ONE is still conscious, existing.

To think of Hell and Heaven and us as separate beings is wrong. And it's not what Gurbani teaches either. Physical life is illusion (Maya) which is like a dream where we all seem as separate dream characters but we really are not. But we all have become so enamoured by the dream, we have forgotten we were really the dreamer.

I tried to explain in other thread. When you dream at night, you essentially ARE God in your dream. You have created everything in that dreamworld. Even though you might only be aware in one character in the dream, still every other character, the trees, the rocks, the sky, the sun etc are ALL still WITHIN your own mind. You created them all. Now when you wake up the morning and your dream is over, do those characters all go to Heaven or Hell? No! The characters ceased to exist. But since the CONSCIOUSNESS behind everything in your dream was really YOU, and YOU just woke up - YOU did NOT cease to exist. You only shifted to a different awareness. Of course this is just a metaphor. It's not 'literally' a dream but is best way I can explain it. And science is proving that the physical material world is false illusion too... everything is just energy, at varying states of vibration. So what is this energy at the base of everything? Since consciousness can not be created, it just 'exists' then the base energy of ALL is pure consciousness. And there is only ONE. You can read up on quantum physics to get an idea.

I think part of why you find it confusing is that, you have trouble seeing yourself as something beyond your physical body. Instead, try seeing your physical body as just a vehicle, or just a costume. But the conscious entity within it, is only temporarily using this body as a way to interact with this world. It should not be hard to imagine, because going back to your dreams at night, you are using a different physical body in the dream right? While inside the dream it feels every bit as real as this body does. If you never woke up, you'd never know it was a dream. Even though while you were dreaming, you had no idea it was a dream, it doesn't change the fact that the dreamworld is nonphysical mental construct that only 'feels' tangible, you were NOT the dream character, you still existed somewhere outside of that dream as Dev Singh. The character you played in the dream did not 'die' or 'go to heaven or hell' - the character vanished when you woke up, but YOU the consciousness that was behind that character woke up in this reality. Now, imagine this reality is another dreamworld and you get the idea. Essential reality is nonphysical conscious energy at varying states of vibration. Form / Matter is just energy vibrating very slowly as to manifest. But break down all the atoms into smallest particles and you will see that those particles pop into and out of existence randomly. Electrons can behave as both a wave and a particle depending on one thing... a conscious observer. Conscious observation is required to manifest matter. Yes, the electrons in even your brain, will exist as only waves (waves only exist in a medium and are not something tangible on their own) if there is no one observing them into existence! WHO is that observer???
 
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lionprinceuk

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Am I too late to this discussion?

Firstly, with regards to the turban and beard there's other sampradaiye in the wider sikh panth, ie parts of the sikh panth that have been made invisible by SGPC mainstream sikhi(ism) since colonial times. For example the udasi sikhs aren't all keshdhari. Then there's also the Nanakpanthi sikhs, a type of regular sikh but found more outside Punjab and more in communities such as the Sindis (that have mostly now moved out of Sind, Pakistan) and probably Biharis. Again not represented by keshdharis these days.

I know Udasis have been close to the sikh panth during the 10 Gurus' era, and Guru Hargobind gave his son, Baba Gurditta, to be the next leader of Udasis after Baba Sri Chand, who of course was Guru Nanak's son. Udasis are known to have spread sikh matt to far areas. Some grow kesh, not necessarily in a turban though. Some shave their head completely, like some ascetics who denounce everything such as Buddha monks.

I think the lack of turban in Nanakpanthis would be due to to the decline in turbans of general Indian population during colonial times. Somehow colonialism stopped people wearing turbans, perhaps banned in some places like other things?

Additionally, just heard something from Basics of Sikhi. Guru Gobind Singh made Singhs wear dumalla as in 2 turbans or 2malla. This was in opposition to the no turban rule for non muslims by Mughal emporer Aurangzeb.


Next, sikh atheism. In the western context, sikhs can be atheist as we don't follow the western God. God is a western Christian entity, not a term seen in Gurbani. There are many colonially imperfect translations of the term Ek Onkar still being used that try and put sikhs into the monotheism category. But I think Far-Eastern and Oriental philosophy and nirguna-sarguna shouldn't fit in any christian viewpoint, so may appear atheist again.

Also not being involved in any sikh organisations/sects/committees/samrpadaiye allows one to look at sikh history with an unbiased viewpoint, and unravel and things that should not be seen as gurmat, unravel hypocrisy, colonial corruption etc.

For example, as I am not really a part of any sect, I have discovered things such as the mainstream nishaan sahib not being an original. The harmonium is not sikh or gurmat at all, and has helped in destroying raag music in sikh panth, and also in the wider Bharat/indian culture. A outside viewpoint at vegetarian/meat argument. Paat being cut down in nitnem, with banis that were seen as hindu or as rebellion to the British being removed from daily paat.

In conclusion, can an atheist be sikh, or a sikh be atheist? probably, depends on how you look at it.

EDITS: turban and beard
harmonium not sikh
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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Am I too late to this discussion?

Firstly, with regards to the turban and bread there's other sampradaiye in the wider sikh panth, ie parts of the sikh panth that have been made invisible by SGPC mainstream sikhi(ism) since colonial times. For example the udasi sikhs aren't all keshdhari. Then there's also the Nanakpanthi sikhs, a type of regular sikh but found more outside Punjab and more in communities such as the Sindis (that have mostly now moved out of Sind, Pakistan) and probably Biharis. Again not represented by keshdharis these days.

I know Udasis have been close to the sikh panth during the 10 Gurus' era, and Guru Hargobind gave his son, Baba Gurditta, to be the next leader of Udasis after Baba Sri Chand, who of course was Guru Nanak's son. Udasis are known to have spread sikh matt to far areas. Some grow kesh, not necessarily in a turban though. Some shave their head completely, like some ascetics who denounce everything such as Buddha monks.

I think the lack of turban in Nanakpanthis would be due to to the decline in turbans of general Indian population during colonial times. Somehow colonialism stopped people wearing turbans, perhaps banned in some places like other things?

Additionally, just heard something from Basics of Sikhi. Guru Gobind Singh made Singhs wear dumalla as in 2 turbans or 2malla. This was in opposition to the no turban rule for non muslims by Mughal emporer Aurangzeb.


Next, sikh atheism. In the western context, sikhs can be atheist as we don't follow the western God. God is a western Christian entity, not a term seen in Gurbani. There are many colonially imperfect translations of the term Ek Onkar still being used that try and put sikhs into the monotheism category. But I think Far-Eastern and Oriental philosophy and nirguna-sarguna shouldn't fit in any christian viewpoint, so may appear atheist again.

Also not being involved in any sikh organisations/sects/committees/samrpadaiye allows one to look at sikh history with an unbiased viewpoint, and unravel and things that should not be seen as gurmat, unravel hypocrisy, colonial corruption etc.

For example, as I am not really a part of any sect, I have discovered things such as the mainstream nishaan sahib not being an original. The harmonium is sikh or gurmat at all, and has helped in destroying raag music in sikh panth, and also in the wider Bharat/indian culture. A outside viewpoint at vegetarian/meat argument. Paat being cut down in nitnem, with banis that were seen as hindu or as rebellion to the British being removed from daily paat.

In conclusion, can an atheist be sikh, or a sikh be atheist? probably, depends on how you look at it.
But isn't atheism the belief that there is no Creator at all? Or rather no belief in any creator? Mool Mantra is very clear there is... (forget different definitions of Creator from various religions. Atheism is not just disbelief in the Christian version of God... it's disbelief in ALL versions of what God is to the point of disbelief in God altogether no matter what the description.) I don't think disbelief in any version or form or understanding of a creator is compatible with Sikhi.
 

Sikhilove

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Hello everyone,

I would like to put forward the proposition that only in atheism lies the ultimate ability to do gods work in this world. This is not as stupid as it sounds, as I will explain.

I come from a background of Khatri Sikhs (where appearance really is everything!), my parents are extremely devoted to the teachings of the gurus, and take religion very seriously. Having said that they are enlightened enough to accept me and my idiot brother, and have never tried to bring us back to the fold once we had taken the decision to cut our hair. In fact, I do recall my father having a discussion, in india, regarding young men who marry, look like gursikhs, but are indulging in extra marital afairs The general consensus was that as long as no one knew, it was ok. My father remarked that better he brought up an atheist son with a white wife rather than live a lie. (good old dad)

If you take that line of thought all the way, what does that leave me with regarding my upbringing as a sikh and as an atheist? Well as an atheist, I dislike ceremony and rituals, but my sikh upbringing, and the many stories of how sikhs would help anyone in distress inspired me to try and be a rock for those around me. In time, I met a welsh lady, whose devotion to people and animals put me to shame, a nurse, she rarely gets home on time, she is also completely incapable of walking past any animal or human in any sort of distress. For me, I get little pleasure in the act of kindness, I see it as more of a responsibility as a member of the human race, however she genuinely gets pleasure out of kind acts.

Now if we were both sikhs, we would have the blessing of god in our efforts, but we are not, and for now I speak for her, as I tend to curse inwardly when I come across a situation, as I feel I have to assist, and even then, I will offer my assistance in the hope it will not be needed. She however will go out of her way to help anyone, not in the name of god, but in the name of compassion. As a society we get more and more blinded to human misery around us, you only have to go to any third world country to see the indifference that most people have towards the poor, the hungry, the ill.

I would take it one step further, if like us, you have no wish to be saved, nor any wish to spend eternity in heaven with god, then all self improvement in that area is a huge waste of time, why waste time praying when you could be making a difference. (sorry i do not mean to offend anyone with that last comment, I know from my mother how important praying is to her, she would wither and die if she should not recite her beloved gurbani)

So what will happen to my wife, who has no interest in either god, or the saving of her soul, (but who will quite happily make me drive 10 miles because some pensioner cannot get a taxi home at the december sales). We have discussed what will happen when I have died, and she has made it clear her intention to spend the rest of her life in a pinglaghar in india, and maybe start a small animal sanctuary, but when she dies, she expects nothing more than to be dust.Although she shows none of the physical or spiritual aspects of being a sikh, to me, she is one of the most able sikh women I have ever met.

So at what point does living a good sikh life become selfish, at what point are you thinking of your salvation, rather than the effect of your actions, surely the best sikh is an atheist sikh, whose only interest is how to lessen the sea of suffering on this earth, rather than have his own salvation at the forefront of his mind.

Thank you to anyone who has read this, and please do not think that I do not understand the bliss that a spiritual connection with the almighty brings, that is not in question, although thinking of the gurus and balance, we are both clearly missing a sword somewhere
Sikhi just teaches Truth. Jesus taught it, accepted shaheedi etc.

To live Truthfully is to Be Good.

We live in an age where being Good is rare- it's a strange, strange age.

People act like they're a good gal or guy, but too often go home and slander people they're jealous of, backstab each other, steal, get angry etc. Life's become a competition, jealousy, envy, greed, attachment, ego are seen to be normal where a saint sees them as mental illnesses. The world is suffering from self inflicted diseases.
Live your life beyond the maya(five thieves) and you're already practicing Truth, other blessings will come automatically.
 

Sikhilove

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Sikhi just teaches Truth. Jesus taught it, accepted shaheedi etc.

To live Truthfully is to Be Good.

We live in an age where being Good is rare- it's a strange, strange age.

People act like they're a good gal or guy, but too often go home and slander people they're jealous of, backstab each other, steal, get angry etc. Life's become a competition, jealousy, envy, greed, attachment, ego are seen to be normal where a saint sees them as mental illnesses. The world is suffering from self inflicted diseases.
Live your life beyond the maya(five thieves) and you're already practicing Truth, other blessings will come automatically.
Also need to add that although Truth is the master, God, was the first Truth knower and created us out of Love. If He stops practicing Truth, the game shuts down, we live in the flow of His Love- the mind of God.

He was the First Sevak.
 

Harry

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Also need to add that although Truth is the master, God, was the first Truth knower and created us out of Love. If He stops practicing Truth, the game shuts down, we live in the flow of His Love- the mind of God.

He was the First Sevak.
To know the truth, the truth would have had to exist before God, did the truth exist first, or did God exist first, what do you think?
 

Sikhilove

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To know the truth, the truth would have had to exist before God, did the truth exist first, or did God exist first, what do you think?
No, that's you using Logic. Truth is beyond logic.

God is Truth, you are Truth and I am Truth, we just live in the illusion that we are not. We are fools.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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To know the truth, the truth would have had to exist before God, did the truth exist first, or did God exist first, what do you think?
God IS the truth... according to Mool Mantra.

Since we are told over and over in Gurbani that There is only the ONE and no other and that everything else is false and temporary (but that we ---- is part of that ONE and hence we as in the true we not the body but the awareness the I AM... that is part of the same one truth).
 

Harry

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God IS the truth... according to Mool Mantra.

Since we are told over and over in Gurbani that There is only the ONE and no other and that everything else is false and temporary (but that we ---- is part of that ONE and hence we as in the true we not the body but the awareness the I AM... that is part of the same one truth).
No, that's you using Logic. Truth is beyond logic.
Harkiranji states that the truth and God were always there, as one, then there is the other opinion that the truth superseded God. As humans, we are logical beings, and I do believe Guru Nanak pursued logic rather than superstition and miracles, so how can the truth that he attempted to teach us not be logical and simply understandable? The statement that God discovered the truth therefore needs more explaining.
 
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