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Atheism Is Atheism The Ultimate Sikhi?

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veer ji ,
koi bnda kise dharam nal ya thinking nal sambandh rakhan nal changa marha nahi hunda bhave oh muslim sikh athiest hindu kuch v hove par
apne karam nal hi changa marha hunda
jehna di example ditti tuc oh ikk vdiya person aa
te ohna ch te ikk amritdhari seva bhavna rakhan vale ch koi frk nhi
kyoki dove dujeya da bhala krde aa par ehda eh mtlb nahi k
athiest sikh hamesha chnga hi hove te eh mtlb v nahi k amritdhari sikh
hamesha chnga hove
bnde apne karam toh pehchaniya janda dharam toh nahi
 

spnadmin

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dear forum member randeep ji

Please translate what you have written so all can enjoy it. Thank you.
 

Ambarsaria

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veer ji ,
koi bnda kise dharam nal ya thinking nal sambandh rakhan nal changa marha nahi hunda bhave oh muslim sikh athiest hindu kuch v hove par
apne karam nal hi changa marha hunda
jehna di example ditti tuc oh ikk vdiya person aa
te ohna ch te ikk amritdhari seva bhavna rakhan vale ch koi frk nhi
kyoki dove dujeya da bhala krde aa par ehda eh mtlb nahi k
athiest sikh hamesha chnga hi hove te eh mtlb v nahi k amritdhari sikh
hamesha chnga hove
bnde apne karam toh pehchaniya janda dharam toh nahi
spnadmin ji I stand corrected but our veer is saying that,
" A person is known by the deeds and not whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or Sikh.

Also just because of the label there is no guarantee of such person to be doing good deeds versus others, say even to the extent of an amritdhari Sikh so labeled or in appearance."
Sat Sri Akal.
 

namritanevaeh

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Hello everyone,

I would like to put forward the proposition that only in atheism lies the ultimate ability to do gods work in this world. This is not as stupid as it sounds, as I will explain.

I come from a background of Khatri Sikhs (where appearance really is everything!), my parents are extremely devoted to the teachings of the gurus, and take religion very seriously. Having said that they are enlightened enough to accept me and my idiot brother, and have never tried to bring us back to the fold once we had taken the decision to cut our hair. In fact, I do recall my father having a discussion, in india, regarding young men who marry, look like gursikhs, but are indulging in extra marital afairs The general consensus was that as long as no one knew, it was ok. My father remarked that better he brought up an atheist son with a white wife rather than live a lie. (good old dad)

If you take that line of thought all the way, what does that leave me with regarding my upbringing as a sikh and as an atheist? Well as an atheist, I dislike ceremony and rituals, but my sikh upbringing, and the many stories of how sikhs would help anyone in distress inspired me to try and be a rock for those around me. In time, I met a welsh lady, whose devotion to people and animals put me to shame, a nurse, she rarely gets home on time, she is also completely incapable of walking past any animal or human in any sort of distress. For me, I get little pleasure in the act of kindness, I see it as more of a responsibility as a member of the human race, however she genuinely gets pleasure out of kind acts.

Now if we were both sikhs, we would have the blessing of god in our efforts, but we are not, and for now I speak for her, as I tend to curse inwardly when I come across a situation, as I feel I have to assist, and even then, I will offer my assistance in the hope it will not be needed. She however will go out of her way to help anyone, not in the name of god, but in the name of compassion. As a society we get more and more blinded to human misery around us, you only have to go to any third world country to see the indifference that most people have towards the poor, the hungry, the ill.

I would take it one step further, if like us, you have no wish to be saved, nor any wish to spend eternity in heaven with god, then all self improvement in that area is a huge waste of time, why waste time praying when you could be making a difference. (sorry i do not mean to offend anyone with that last comment, I know from my mother how important praying is to her, she would wither and die if she should not recite her beloved gurbani)

So what will happen to my wife, who has no interest in either god, or the saving of her soul, (but who will quite happily make me drive 10 miles because some pensioner cannot get a taxi home at the december sales). We have discussed what will happen when I have died, and she has made it clear her intention to spend the rest of her life in a pinglaghar in india, and maybe start a small animal sanctuary, but when she dies, she expects nothing more than to be dust.Although she shows none of the physical or spiritual aspects of being a sikh, to me, she is one of the most able sikh women I have ever met.

So at what point does living a good sikh life become selfish, at what point are you thinking of your salvation, rather than the effect of your actions, surely the best sikh is an atheist sikh, whose only interest is how to lessen the sea of suffering on this earth, rather than have his own salvation at the forefront of his mind.

Thank you to anyone who has read this, and please do not think that I do not understand the bliss that a spiritual connection with the almighty brings, that is not in question, although thinking of the gurus and balance, we are both clearly missing a sword somewhere
Wow. Thank you Harry ji.

I really enjoyed reading this.

Am I allowed to link back to this page elsewhere???
 

spnadmin

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Requiem ji

You finally put into words thoughts I have had trouble putting into words. How simply put. There is a lot of room in Sikhi - and the question posed does not have an either/or for an answer. The answer has an either-and-or quality to it.
 

namritanevaeh

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Very very interesting thread! Haven't read the entire thing, but I'm going to go ahead and say that atheism (rejection of the supernatural) and Sikhi are not mutually exclusive :happykudi:
I kind of wonder if I am not fully intelligent enough to understand this... ;-)
 

ActsOfGod

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take two sikhs, one worships god at every moment but does little sewa, the other does nothing but sewa and hardly thinks about god, which sikh has embraced the bigger ideal, thank you
Seva, charity, compassion, helping others, being a good person, etc. are all commendable and worthy of our efforts.

However, there is a distinction to be made. As far as I understand it, in Sikhi the concept of worship is very different than the Judeo-Christian view. In Sohila, Guru Sahib describes the worship of the Almighty. It's not anything like the Christian concept of worshipping God. Sikhs don't go to the Gurudwara on Sunday to perform worship. That's a very Christian type of paradigm, and unfortunately many Sikhs have fallen into that thinking. A Gurudwara is a place of learning. A Sikh goes to the Gurudwara to receive spiritual instruction from Guru Sahib. Very different paradigm than that of going to church and worshipping the Lord.

As far as I understand things, sitting in a room and meditating really isn't what's prescribed for a Sikh. There's nothing wrong with meditation, but that's not the goal, per se. Sikhi is all about action. This Earth is the realm of action. Therefore, a Sikh is to fulfill his or her duty in this realm, while understanding that when all is said and done, it's all just a play, an act, a show. The reality is hidden from us, shrouded in mystery by Maya. The whole world dances to it's tune, and are duped like people in The Matrix.

So in a way, Gurbani is the message that frees us from this dream. You don't have to pray a lot, or believe in God, etc. What you do have to do, is wake up from the slumber, escape from the hypnosis, and recognize the reality of the situation we are all in. It's more akin to freedom from shackles, or escape from a prison camp, than "being religious".

So to answer the question, which Sikh has embraced the bigger ideal, I think I would say neither. Or both. Because the bigger ideal is bigger then either of the two choices. There is more going on than we realize. Gurbani is multi-faceted, deep, complex, with layers upon layers of meaning. The deeper you dive into it, the more vast you discover it to be. Down the proverbial rabbit-hole we go ...

Gurbani exhorts us to recognize our True Selves. Where we came from. What we came here to do (there is a reason why we are here). Recognize the divinity in ourselves and all beings. Reconnect with our Creator whom we have forgotten in the course of growing up and being entangled by Maya and all it's influences. And fulfill our life's mission, the reason why we came to this Earth. Realizing that, and fulfilling it, is the biggest ideal.

GurFateh!
AoG
 

spnadmin

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On a personal note it always seems to me that atheists, who really like Sikhism, do not want to give up atheism. Thus, they find ways to transform Sikhi into something that works for them, rather than transforming themselves into something that is Sikhi. Likewise, there are Sikhs who want to loosen ties with traditional practices and beliefs (that are more cultural than anything else) and atheism is intellectually attractive. But they want to continue as Sikhs. So again the trick is to make Sikhism into a different suit of clothes, atheism, rather than consider their comprehension of Sikhism may be too narrow.
As the thread winds this way and that, I feel the need to repeat myself. Above was one of the earliest replies in the thread.

How could atheism be the "ultimate" Sikhi?

The thread title is asserting that atheism is Sikhi. Think that through.

1. Atheists may be ethical, compassionate, generous, socially engaged, hard-working, householders, tolerant of other points of view (though often they are not) and even spiritual. But...there is nothing about "atheism" per se that compels any individual atheist to be ethical, compassionate, generous, socially engaged, hard-working, householders, tolerant or spiritual. It is the decision of individual atheists to harbour those qualities.

2. Sikhs are, by rehat and Gurbani, taught to be ethical and to have a spiritual life through naam japna, kirat karni, and vand chakko. As individuals we can chose all, some or none of those pillars. Yet, the weaker our commitment to them the more aware we become that our Sikhism feels like an empty shell. The more the panth forgets them, the more their Sikhism becomes an outward shows of faith.

3. Atheism is not anything more than a philosophical position. The premise of atheism is that there is no "god." God cannot be proved based on evidence, logic or the scientific method. Although Sikhi may reject a personal god, or a god who incarnates as a person, accepting the eternal reality of the oankaar is more than a philosophical position. See point 2 above. Sikhi holds that the sat is self-existent and self-created. But Sikhi also holds that the sat has no form and has 1000 forms. Evidently Sikhi accepts something greater than the human mind can comprehend. Something therefore that is not going to be provable using facts, logic or the scientific method. But this something is very real.

My opinion: the thread is confusing basic assumptions and conclusions that come from them. The basic assumptions of atheism and Sikhi are miles apart. Individual Sikhs and atheists alike may conclude that living an ethical life is consistent with their point of view. How does this make atheism the "ultimate" Sikhi?
 

Harry Haller

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Today it was announced that respected Atheist Richard Dawkins has set up 'the society for atheists'. He has appointed himself head of the society, and is having a huge building built in Norfolk to accomodate the growing number of Atheists that are converting each year. The building will have a large spire atop of which there will be a giant question mark. Followers of Dawkins atheism will have to face the tower 3 times a day and recite atheist poetry, and agree to the rules of the society.

Dawkins today stated that a society was much needed to show people the true atheism, and to stop people following false atheism, as propogated by the likes of Christopher Hitchins.


inspired by VIZ magazine
 

Harry Haller

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I wrote this post several years ago frustrated by the huge levels of ritual and superstition in Sikhism, the Sikhism that I had been brought up on, to me, was no more enlightened than Hinduism, or Islam, it had similar rituals, there was nothing special about Sikhsim in my mind at that point, through the thread, my adherent changed from Atheist to Sikh, as I realised that Sikhism was in fact the way of life I had been looking for all my life, no mumbo jumbo, and creation is in everything, and the force that created does not require fear, respect, love, it just requires that you acknowledge its presence and try and act within its qualities, doing so does not shower you with gods love, but a better chance of living and finding peace, and eventually finding yourself,

The answer to the question is no, Atheism is not the ultimate Sikhi, purely because of the lack of any concept of consonance

:happymunda:
 

spnadmin

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harry haller ji

I kind of figured that. My comments are more directed toward the thread trend to equate atheism and Sikhi using a willy nilly connection of active, ethical engagement,

At the beginning of the thread you were thinking specifically of your wife who embodies all of the values of Sikhi without being a Sikh. You were asking, "Folks, what went wrong with the panth?
 

namritanevaeh

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On a personal note it always seems to me that atheists who really like Sikhism do not want to give up atheism. Thus, they find ways to transform Sikhi into something that works for them, rather than transforming themselves into something that is Sikhi. Likewise, there are Sikhs who want to loosen ties with traditional practices and beliefs (that are more cultural than anything else) and atheism is intellectually attractive. But they want to continue as Sikhs. So again the trick is to make Sikhism into a different suit of clothes, atheism, rather than consider their comprehension of Sikhism may be too narrow.

Thread moved to interfaith dialogs/atheism.
SPNadmin-ji isn't that kind of the whole idea of people when you hear "take what works for you and leave the rest"? ;-)
 

angrisha

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Sikhism that I had been brought up on, to me, was no more enlightened than Hinduism, or Islam

:happymunda:
I find this point to be interesting because I wonder what non culturally Punjabi ppl feel when they are first introduced to Sikhi (or any world religion for that matter).

When I entered into my 20's I think thats when real learning for me really started to happen because I choose to re-vist Sikhi and learn with fresh eyes.. and I quickly understood how little I had actually learned before that. I still sometimes struggle with 'requirements' vs what I actually do.
 

spnadmin

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SPNadmin-ji isn't that kind of the whole idea of people when you hear "take what works for you and leave the rest"? ;-)
naritanevaeh ji

Perhaps. I actually don't know what "people mean" by that statement. Whatever it means, is it not important to evaluate what one takes versus what is left behind? If basic assumptions of any path of adherence are left behind, then the part that "works for you" may turn out to be the frog that does not turn into the prince. It is just a frog.
 

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