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Interfaith Marriage - Muslim & Sikh

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kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
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INDIA
Dear Kds1980,

In your post you write as follows: "if hindu, muslims and sikhs could co exist it would have been a great thing but this is just a dream". Are you suggesting that the teachings of Baba Nanak Ji are "simple dreams"?

You also wrote (above) the following: "liberal muslims like you always want to deny that islam is religion of fundamentals. so accept the truth". Can you see the connection between both of your statements? To my understanding, a liberal is not in denial of fundamentalism as much as is a non-religious person who uses deferral by emphasizing the differences between people of different faiths. Its a classic argument but one that flies in the face of the greatest spiritual teachings of the subcontinent. The real question is actually not about 'liberal denial' as much as it is about secular deferral.

dear nadeem

you are very good in twisting words.you haven't replied to my question
that why majority of muslim countries are taken over by fundamentalists.

as far as teaching of guru nanak is concerned.it is for everybody but it contradicts the teachings of shariat so anybody that follows the teachings
guru nanak does not remain muslim in the eyes of orthodox muslims.

kaur-1 ji has given excellent reply that please spread the teachings of guru
nanak on muslim forums. and if they become liberal then everybody will welcome muslims with open arms.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear KDS1980,

Please check my earlier postings or do a search for them. You will soon see that I have already commented on Muslim fundamentalism. I have mentioned the fact that we reject petro-dollar politics when it encourages fundamentalist rhetoric in some Muslim countries. Baba Nanak's teachings do not contradict the spiritual function of the Sufi Masters, who are, by definition, the orthodoxy in Islam. All else are latter day accretions and vulgar politics - now why do want to spend so much time worrying about such nasties when you can free yourself by listening to an uplifting Gurbani Kirtan?

As for "twisting words", please give me examples so I may correct myself.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
dear nadeem and fordo

a week ago a sikh girl who is studying at uni in birmigham visited this site
and told us what is happening with her and her friends


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ggressive-conversion-targetted-by-cops-2.html
SS0606 WROTE
I am 18 years old and at Uni in Birmingham. I was told by a young Muslim boy 'you have the characteristics of a good Muslim girl' My answer to that was 'well Muslim must have a lot in common with Sikhs?' My Hindu friend was told that if she was to convert to Islam, 'you would a lot of good looking Muslim boyfriends' she was outraged and said 'do you think us Indian girls are prostitutes?' I assure you we haven't even as much as shook these boys hands nevermind any other further physical relationship.
Yes I understand what you are trying to say, that we as Sikhs and Hindus should be stronger and show these boys where we stand, but put yourself in shoes of these young girls, how do you deal with these idiots when we're constantly around them? We go to Uni with these people, we study with them, they're in our lectures. If one goes another one comes, avoiding them is just impossible. It's easy to point your finger and say that 'Oh well these girls just lack cultural and religious knowledge' but the truth is we're not all as dumb and idiotic as we're made out to be.
You have to realize that these boys are not doing it religiously but out of greed, they're rewarded by high payments. In my opinion it is not the fact that we are Sikh or Hindu but simply due to the fact that we are Indian. I'm sure most young Sikh and Hindu girls will agree that these Muslim boys are not from Iran or Dubai or any other Islamic country, but Pakistani boys. It turns in to a competiton for them on who can get the most amount of INDIAN girls. And the more we say NO the more they try just to look good infront of other Pakistani boys. We as a whole community need to show that we are not weak and not just rely on us young Indian girls do be able to show them the finger.


I did say that the more we say NO the more they try and the more they annoy us. And as far as the language you used, why should I steep so low? I was brought up with manners and Sikhism teaches we respect other people faiths and not all Muslims are bad people. So why would I want to insult the majority?

And my reply to what are Sikh and Hindu boys doing? A very good question, they need to help us but most of the times thei response to us is...'you deserve it.' This aggravates me a lot, and our brothers who do want to help...well how far does a one man army go?

I've seen a lot of my friends (Sikh and Hindu) get into fights with Muslim boys and they're not small fights, i've seen my own brother have a hammer struck to his head 4 times, and as sad as it sounds, my friends did nothing but back down. We can bad mouth Muslims as much as we want but the fact is that the Muslim community (especially Pakistani Muslims) are a well bonded community. If one is in trouble they multiply by hundreds. So once again i'm stressing we need to work TOGETHER and help eachother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
now nadeem tell us where are liberal muslims.why are they supporting their fundamentalist brothers? are there actually some muslims who follows teachings of guru nanak.how you people would have felt if fundamentalists sikhs or hindu's are targeting your girls?
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear Kaur-Ji,

Did you know that some Muslims are vegetarian by nature? It may come as a surprise to you, perhaps. In any case, there is no compulsion to eat Halal or non-halal meat if you are Sikh. Let us try and get even better at developing our understanding.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Also, may we avoid elevating our "personal experiences" of Muslims "at Uni" - whatever that means - above the pure teachings of Baba Nanak Ji. If I were to relate all of my "personal experiences" of unsavoury Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, I could probably earn a degree in Sociology. Thankfully, sociology is not my subject.
 

vaapaaraa

SPNer
Jul 15, 2004
196
6
I have already said that I am NOT advocating Sikh-Muslim marriages except for rare exceptions and on condition that it does result in the rejection of Baba Nanak's wisdom and teachings.

Nadeem says "that rare case where the marriage goes against Baba Nanak's Teaching, Im in favour of that"

Its not even a rare case, every case is like that, Guru Gobind Singh ji forbid any marriage of his sikh with any muslim. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was declared tankhya when he married a muslim, and was punished in Akaal Takht for this mistake.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Please quote me accurately. I said: " I am NOT advocating Sikh-Muslim marriages except for rare exceptions and on condition that it does result in the rejection of Baba Nanak's wisdom and teachings."

But you have incorrectly asserted the following: "Nadeem says "that rare case where the marriage goes against Baba Nanak's Teaching, Im in favour of that."

Is this an attempt to misquote me ?
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear Kaur-Ji,

You have stopped answering my questions. Instead, you seem to be quite content to AVOID them altogether.

I have answered the question about marriage and NO I am not related to anyone who wants to marry a Sikh. Please tell me if you believe that Hazrat Mian Mir Ji is simply a Muslim just like the fanatical Muslims whom you berate so much?
 

vaapaaraa

SPNer
Jul 15, 2004
196
6
Please tell me if you believe that Hazrat Mian Mir Ji is simply a Muslim just like the fanatical Muslims whom you berate so much?

Good atleast you say in our own words those fanatical muslims are different from mian mir.

anyway, I do not wish to argue on useless issues, and kaur-1 is doing the same.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear Vaapaara-Ji,

Precisely my point!

Kaur-Ji seems to want to squeeze as much hostility out of a non-issue as is humanly possible. I am really worried about her. Having answered her questions about marriage Kaur-Ji now seems to want to classify ALL Muslims as having the SAME view. So, my question was, if ALL muslims are the SAME, why not remove the name of Hazrat Mian Mir Ji or Emperor Akbar from Sikh history? After all, they too, are simply "MUSLIMS" according to Kaur-Ji? This discussion is going nowhere, clearly.


 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
You wrote: "Good at least you say in our own words those fanatical muslims are different from mian mir."

But thats what I have been saying from the start. I think Kaur-Ji has been very unfair in her comments.
 

vaapaaraa

SPNer
Jul 15, 2004
196
6
Nadeem, instead of annoying the sikh sangat here. You can read this shabad below and make better use of your time.


आसा ॥
aasaa.
Aasaa:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कहा ते आए किनि एह राह चलाई ॥
hindoo turak kahaa tay aa-ay kin ayh raah chalaa-ee.
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
दिल महि सोचि बिचारि कवादे भिसत दोजक किनि पाई ॥१॥
dil meh soch bichaar kavaaday bhisat dojak kin paa-ee. ||1||
Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
काजी तै कवन कतेब बखानी ॥
kaajee tai kavan katayb bakhaanee.
O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पड़्हत गुनत ऐसे सभ मारे किनहूं खबरि न जानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
parhHat gunat aisay sabh maaray kinhooN khabar na jaanee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
सकति सनेहु करि सुंनति करीऐ मै न बदउगा भाई ॥
sakat sanayhu kar sunat karee-ai mai na bad-ugaa bhaa-ee.
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
जउ रे खुदाइ मोहि तुरकु करैगा आपन ही कटि जाई ॥२॥
ja-o ray khudaa-ay mohi turak karaigaa aapan hee kat jaa-ee. ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
सुंनति कीए तुरकु जे होइगा अउरत का किआ करीऐ ॥
sunat kee-ay turak jay ho-igaa a-urat kaa ki-aa karee-ai.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
छाडि कतेब रामु भजु बउरे जुलम करत है भारी ॥
chhaad katayb raam bhaj ba-uray julam karat hai bhaaree.
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
कबीरै पकरी टेक राम की तुरक रहे पचिहारी ॥४॥८॥
kabeerai pakree tayk raam kee turak rahay pachihaaree. ||4||8||
Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||
 

makkanz

SPNer
Feb 2, 2007
42
3
so much hate and blindness to each other. We look the same, dress the same, speak the same languages. Why does everyone look at the past and not at the future? Why hold onto the past and hate .. when you can look at the future and rejoice and grow? ask yourselves that ... dont put blame on others ... look at yourselves .. and ask .. why makes you look at the negatives and not at the positives? Who (muslim, sikh, christan others) can deny that we came from the same origins and in truth are all brother and sisters. Over time as we have spread out over this world we have developed our own identities. Why is religion and culture divisive instead of inclusive. I talked to a muslim friend of mine last night and he commented that it would be very favourable in the eyes of god for me to convert my true love to islam. Who the hell is he to say that? In gods eyes we are all equal and equally loved by god. There is so much hate, misunderstanding, fear on all sides. I am sorry, but i cannot agree with much of the comments on this forum as they are against the basic doctrines of what is right and wrong and against humanity in general.
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,689
5,244
SPN
so much hate and blindness to each other. We look the same, dress the same, speak the same languages. Why does everyone look at the past and not at the future? Why hold onto the past and hate .. when you can look at the future and rejoice and grow? ask yourselves that ... dont put blame on others ... look at yourselves .. and ask .. why makes you look at the negatives and not at the positives? Who (muslim, sikh, christan others) can deny that we came from the same origins and in truth are all brother and sisters. Over time as we have spread out over this world we have developed our own identities. Why is religion and culture divisive instead of inclusive. I talked to a muslim friend of mine last night and he commented that it would be very favourable in the eyes of god for me to convert my true love to islam. Who the hell is he to say that? In gods eyes we are all equal and equally loved by god. There is so much hate, misunderstanding, fear on all sides. I am sorry, but i cannot agree with much of the comments on this forum as they are against the basic doctrines of what is right and wrong and against humanity in general.


I totally agree with your comments. Whats going on this thread is not representative of philosophy of SPN as clearly mentioned in our terms of service. It is my humble request that everybody adhreres to these terms while engaging in any dialogues.

Some of the members have been shockingly aggressive while addressing to some of the queries in this thread. :eek: I would like to request everybody that please reply to dear Nadeems queries in a civilized manner rather than cornering him with your barrage of undue comments. I wonder why do you people feel so insecure over the comments made by a person who is apprently here at SPN to learn.

Please quote from authentic resourses: where, when and why Guru Gobind Singh ji forbid sikhs for marrying muslims? There were more muslims in the army of Guru Ji than followers of other faiths. How could Guru ji pronounce like this. I think there is some missing conception in this. Rather than defending our ignorance with hostile posts let us explore the history books and come up with true account of what Guru ji said and why?

Lets us behave like a civilised people and understand the fundamental doctrines of what is right and wrong and against humanity in general.

Regards


Admin Note : Anybody found forcing the issue with hostile and derogatory remarks with a fellow SPN member will be dealt with appropriately.

 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
Well said, but this goes to a much deeper generalization which people {censored} foot around. You are absolutely correct that decency in response is necessary, but a few points, and not intended to chase anyone away:

1) We talk so eloquently and abstractly about religion and philosophy. It is apples and oranges. Why even mix Sikhism and Islam. The creation of Sikhism, in its post Guru Gobind Singh form, was in essence as a militant reaction against Mughal and Islamic power in northern India. The reasons for those were obvious. They were not about taxes, or democracy, or economics but about whether your head would be cut off if you were a Sikh. Thus, the whole tenor of the "discussion", if it is does not acknowledge this, is in lah lah land.

2) There is something inherently funny about arguing about hurt 'feelings' when it comes to Muslims posting on a Sikh website. Of course they are free to do so and express their opinion. Unlike their faith, ours does allow open discourse of any aspect of religion and faith. However, is it not interesting how we stand up for the Muslims, even when most of the people on this forum cannot have an open gurudwara service in Saudi Arabia?

As for "hate" and "holding on the past" and "we are all equal in the eyes of god", well all that stuff is good, but is it not interesting that these sentiments also again ignore the past and present? Which communities in the world today espouse "specialness" and "separatism"? Which philosophies and cultures did not and do still do not condone acceptance of other religions as equally legitimate? While intellectuals of other faiths are welcome to post on this website, they are being intellectually dishonest if they think that centuries of persecution and murder and pillage are washed away under the blanket of wishful thinking and revisionism or hey, let us just ignore what happened. It is also funny to say, well, "the religion does not condone that". Yeah, but what is done in the name of religion might as well be owed up to by that religion. Kind of like all that gold in the vatican and spanish churches, paid for by the blood of untold denizens of the native americas, killed off by Cortez and his like for the glory of the church and spain!! (But the religion did not condone it!!)

Lastly, again I ask who is responsible for making religion and culture divisive and not inclusive? As I recall, it was Jinnah whose ego and sensibilities and religious affiliation required the creation of pakistan, all while he was enjoying his whiskey. The trouble with India and Indians (read hindus or hindustanis) is they have always been too accepting of others, their ways, their habits and their culture. Even since Asoka, this has been our downfall.

While my post is rambling and perhaps not going to win any prizes in an essay contest, I am merely pointing out that while we as Sikhs strive to be more accepting than the next man, more sympathetic, more understanding and philosophically and religiously more open minded than most people we will encounter, it is at a cost. We are a group of 25 million Sikhs, partially wavering, partially passionate, and partially ignorant and unconcerned adherents to our religion cannot hope to survive or outlast philosophies and faiths which demonize us, ridicule us, and sometimes benevolently and sometimes maliciously ignore or condemn us and our aspirations.

In all honesty, please everyone post and respect each other. But sometimes the weight of history and bias and facts can prevent "smooth" exchanges.
Enough of this, I am tired of my own bull.
 

sikh_kudi

SPNer
Mar 9, 2007
1
0
Being a sikh raised out of India, I do not understand this hatred or strong ill-feeling against muslims. I have been raised by an educated family, who has always followed the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib. Nowhere in this does it state to put down others because of their cast or religion.

Yes, we are all equal and yes our own vanities as humans have caused this seperation and fight for power in the name of religion.
I think such feverent comments against religions are driven out of fear and only fuel ill-feelings amongst the religions.

Were you there when these fights occurred? Are we not meant to learn from our past? If we do hold onto the past and use it to fuel anger then will we not end up repeating the past?
What's the point of that?

Yes, it is all very revolutionary to state that we should all behave as equals etc etc. and very hard to digest because most of the Indian population still have such great hatred in their hearts for Pakistanis. I've tried to understand from so many people why this is so..and the only reply I get is just 'because it is'. Wow - now that is revolutionary considering its 2007.
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
Maakanz and Nadeem

Please also take the time to explain why Islamic men are allowed by religion to take women from all non muslim races and cultures and marry 4 wives, whilst muslim women are not allowed to marry a non muslim?

On the ground level, a Sikh man having his daughter marry a muslim man is one of the biggest disgraces that can befall them. You have to be careful because if you do that to the wrong family, violence will befall you.

There are 50 g'zillion muslims in the world (i.e. loads) , can a mulsim not find a suitable bride/gf in this large pool?

If you had any respect at all for Sikhs you wouldn't be saying what you're saying and be leaving us alone. Your words say it all, you are no friend to Sikhs you want us to give our daughters away to the people who tried to wipe us of teh face of the earth (fact). Plus I live and have grown up in area with a very large population of Punjabi Pakistanis so i think I'm qualified to have an opinion on the true nature of Sikh/pak relations.

Like you were told before, you need to go to Islamic forums and talk to your real brothers and sisters and try and teach them to not look at others as hated kafirs, which would be hard as they are told to do as much in the koran.
 
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