Sikhism In The Master's Presence - The Sikhs Of Hazoor Sahib

Please, please, please help again!! I have wondered around on the internet for a week and somehow ended back here with new knowledge that Nadir Singh is now apologising for misleading information! I read through the conversation between add0002 ji and Randip ji and this is making absolutely no sense to me either! What are you talking about different sects? Shouldn't we be standing united in values, beliefs, understandings (shared) and knowledge of our Guru's words? I take it that Nadir Singh ji is a close friend and therefore someone that you both must know personally - thus understanding his intentions, and I respect that!

BUT...

I was offered a link to a video on Nihang Singhs and let me say that after watching that I personally walked away thinking of how saintly these people are! What I took from this and another book that i have read is nothing like what Nadir Singh ji proposes! I have taken on board all that has been replied to me in the post I left both here and on Sikhnet but I have to say except that covering something in sugar is not going to make it go down any sweeter...

What I mean by this is we can say that Guru Gobind Singh ji lived through a tough time and had to fight for Sikhism so therefore the weapon is a god-like but we know that what is meant here is that religious war was our Guru's last option - he watch as his 2 sons were killed and never once held hatred for that, his army served food and cared for all men on the field, Guru Gobind Singh ji used the weapons as a METAPHOR and a metaphor only. Sugar coat it, but do we really believe that our Guru's wanted us to bow before a sword - I think not.

Secondly, the idea of Hinduism being embedded in Sikhism - lets go back to Guru Nanak - "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" ! We are all on a journey that only God knows. There are many paths to follow and each will take his own. Our Guru's spoke of useless rituals and worship, so how does someone so educated write of it being embedded?

This is not anger that drives me to write this, in fact the opposite. I just wonder how we got it all so wrong at the very basics? How do we get ourselves (as 1 sikh community with humanity) back to what our Guru's teach us? How do we pay our respects to the real Nihangs who have sacrificed their lives for our teachers in the past and would again, if required?

In closing, Ek Onka, sat naam! I may not know much but I always carry the first line of Jaapji Sahib - it doesn't matter what we call ourselves - whether it a sect of SIkhism or a different religious view altogether - in the end there is ONE GOD and his name is TRUTH!!!
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Interested ji

Sorry if randip ji and I have confused you. Go back to the Internet links you mention as having new information. This is not information. It is disinformation -material published as if it is true and after enough people post enough disinformation it becomes its own reality.

We can continue this if you like -- however, randip ji and I were pointing out that every one of these Internet links is authored by someone with a fanatical agenda.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
Please, please, please help again!! I have wondered around on the internet for a week and somehow ended back here with new knowledge that Nadir Singh is now apologising for misleading information! I read through the conversation between add0002 ji and Randip ji and this is making absolutely no sense to me either! What are you talking about different sects? Shouldn't we be standing united in values, beliefs, understandings (shared) and knowledge of our Guru's words? I take it that Nadir Singh ji is a close friend and therefore someone that you both must know personally - thus understanding his intentions, and I respect that!

Hi Interested, unfortunately there are many many sects in Sikhism. In terms of Media bandwith on the internet, the AKJ or Akhand Kirtani Jatha, which was shaped by the rather uncompromising figure of Bhai Randhit Singh seems to have a disproportiantely large amount of control of web sites, and they SPIN their version of Sikhism at every opporunity, without compromise. When anyone challenges that (Niddar Singh an example), the media machine swings into motion and the the person is vilified.

Let me give you an example of their misinformation:

Here is Sikhism 101, another one of their arms. Here is an essay on the emotive topic of meat:

What is the attitude of Sikh Faith towards eating animals (i.e. meat)? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net

Now let me take 3 sections from their Historical Sources in this essay (as I love to read Sikh history books).

They quote Dabistan e Mazhib written by Mohsin Fani

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:
<cite>"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."
</cite>

Now if I didn't read books I would believe this. Here is the same quote but from a a verifiable source:

Grewal, J.S. Sikh History from Persian Sources: Translations of Major Texts ISBN-13 978-8185229171

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance with Nanak’s wishes”. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.


Now look at the MISquote and wanton disregard for the TRUTH! I can supply the exact page too with page numbers.

Here is another example:

ਅਕ ਧਤੂਰਾ ਖਾਧਿਆਂ ਕੁਹਿ ਕੁਹਿ ਖਲ ਉਖਲਿ ਵਿਣਸੀ ॥
ਮਾਸੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਹੋਵਸੀ ॥
<cite>"I was eating 'Ak' and 'Dhatura' plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?
(Vaar 25, Pauri 7)</cite>

Elsewhere, Bhai Gurdaas Ji says:
ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ ॥
ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥
ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਿਲ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ ॥
<cite>"Goat is being killed, cut into pieces, and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating 'Ak' plant (weed found in India's desert fields). What will be the fate of those in the Court of the Lord who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?"
(Vaar 37, Pauri 21)</cite>



That is fine, but do not lie. Here is another couplet from Varan Bhai Gurdas:

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar23Pauri13:SearchGurbani.com

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="94%"><tbody><tr height="35"><td class="subhead1" align="center" valign="top">Vaar 23 Pauri 13 Lesson from Goat
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਹਸਤਿ ਅਖਾਜੁ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਹੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਖਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">hasati akhaaju gumaan kari seehu sataanaa koi n khaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 1 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">hoi nimaanee bakaree deen dunee vadiaaee paaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 2 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਮਰਣੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਭੋਗਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">maranai paranai manneeai jagi bhogi paravaanu karaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat dis accepted.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 3 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮਾਸੁ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਨੋ ਆਂਦਹੁ ਤਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਵਜਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">maasu pavitr grihasat no aandahu taar veechaari vajaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 4 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਚਮੜੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਤੀਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">chamarhay deeaan kari juteeaa saadhoo charan sarani|iv|aaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 5 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤੂਰ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਮੜੀਦੇ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">toor pakhaavaj marheeday keeratanu saadhasangati sukhadaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">Line 6 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੧੩॥
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">saadhasangati satigur saranaaee ॥13॥
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru.</td></tr></tbody></table>

My point is these people are LIARS and are manipulaters. They will stoop so low as to disregard Sikh ideals of Truth and Justice, just to push their own point of view. This is what they are doing with Niddar Singh.

BUT...

I was offered a link to a video on Nihang Singhs and let me say that after watching that I personally walked away thinking of how saintly these people are! What I took from this and another book that i have read is nothing like what Nadir Singh ji proposes! I have taken on board all that has been replied to me in the post I left both here and on Sikhnet but I have to say except that covering something in sugar is not going to make it go down any sweeter...

What book is this? Are these people Nihangs or AKJer's dressed as Nihangs?

What I mean by this is we can say that Guru Gobind Singh ji lived through a tough time and had to fight for Sikhism so therefore the weapon is a god-like but we know that what is meant here is that religious war was our Guru's last option - he watch as his 2 sons were killed and never once held hatred for that, his army served food and cared for all men on the field, Guru Gobind Singh ji used the weapons as a METAPHOR and a metaphor only. Sugar coat it, but do we really believe that our Guru's wanted us to bow before a sword - I think not.

I keep various weapons in the house, and I treat them with great respect. I don't worship them (although to the outsider it may seem so), the reason why was because these weapons have been in our family for generations. They are the reason why Randip Singh is on this planet. The Sikh's of old treated their weapons with great care. They were Guerilla's in effect and had to, and that is why they treated them like that. They gave their weapons names, and even characteristics. That is why they are their.

The Guru's, Bandha Bahadhur and the Misls fought many battle's. Thier lives dependended on these weapons. Niddar S=ingh is saying nothing different from this. Like I said read some more books.


Secondly, the idea of Hinduism being embedded in Sikhism - lets go back to Guru Nanak - "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" ! We are all on a journey that only God knows. There are many paths to follow and each will take his own. Our Guru's spoke of useless rituals and worship, so how does someone so educated write of it being embedded?

The Guru's spoke but did we listen? He spoke against caste yet caste is stronger than ever in Punajb today amongst Sikhs!

The Guru's spoke about the place of women, banned Sati and female infanticide, yet it is practiced more in Punab amongst Sikhs than any other groups.

Dr IJ Singh and Kohli talk in their books about the strong Vashnavite influences that taint Sikhism today.

This is not anger that drives me to write this, in fact the opposite. I just wonder how we got it all so wrong at the very basics? How do we get ourselves (as 1 sikh community with humanity) back to what our Guru's teach us? How do we pay our respects to the real Nihangs who have sacrificed their lives for our teachers in the past and would again, if required?

What are real Nihangs? What are your definitions? What the manipulative AKJ sites tell you? or teh followers of Yogi Bhajan? Maybe the Vashnavite orientatetd Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha?

We need to get back to Sikhi, but lets face up to our history.

In closing, Ek Onka, sat naam! I may not know much but I always carry the first line of Jaapji Sahib - it doesn't matter what we call ourselves - whether it a sect of SIkhism or a different religious view altogether - in the end there is ONE GOD and his name is TRUTH!!!

Indeed. In order to pursue Truth immerse yourself in Sikh history.
 
The Guru's spoke but did we listen? He spoke against caste yet caste is stronger than ever in Punajb today amongst Sikhs!

The Guru's spoke about the place of women, banned Sati and female infanticide, yet it is practiced more in Punab amongst Sikhs than any other groups.

Dr IJ Singh and Kohli talk in their books about the strong Vashnavite influences that taint Sikhism today.

Randip, two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact is clear now that Niddar Singh said Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism and this goes against Sikhi. This man did infact mislead Sikhs in his book and then when he was asked about the whole ordeal he still said he is right. And look how you are trying to justify is mistake right now, by saying people don't listen to Guru Nanak. Guess what else Guru Nanak Dev ji taught Sikhs to say what is wrong to call it WRONG.

This is about Niddar Singh and him saying Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism not about caste system and why people do follow it. Stick to the topic here Randip Singh, don't side track this topic.

Niddar Singh said Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism and he was wrong on saying this.PERIOD
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
Randip, two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact is clear now that Niddar Singh said Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism and this goes against Sikhi.

Where has Niddar Singh done this? I want exact page number and quotes.


This man did infact mislead Sikhs in his book and then when he was asked about the whole ordeal he still said he is right. And look how you are trying to justify is mistake right now, by saying people don't listen to Guru Nanak. Guess what else Guru Nanak Dev ji taught Sikhs to say what is wrong to call it WRONG.

Where did he mislead Sikhs? Which part of his book is wrong? I want exact page numbers and quotes please.

This is about Niddar Singh and him saying Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism not about caste system and why people do follow it. Stick to the topic here Randip Singh, don't side track this topic.

You have made the accusation again. Where has he said this? Exact page numbers.


Niddar Singh said Hinduism is embedded in Sikhism and he was wrong on saying this.PERIOD

NOT Period and no need to use a BOLD font.

I want you to quote exactly word for word what he has said. I want to see page numbers. :yes:

The only misleaders I see are the AKJ sites and I have clearly demonstrated that.
 
I have just received my copy of this book and I would highly recommend it.

It is very well put together, and very well researched, with some beautiful illustration and well sourced and research.

The controversial bit is the section on the current Jathedhar of Hazoor Sahib Kulwant Singh who seems to be a real light weight and complicit in the destruction of Sikh Architecture. There are shocking pictures of demolition of the Ramgarhia Bunga at night time under the cover of darkness. I think Kulwant Singh (who seems pro AKJ or DDT) is/was complicit in this descration of Sikh Architecture. Who needs the GOI to bomb Sikh temples when we have Jathedar Kulwant Singh doing it.

No wonder there is such venom coming from (AKJ/DDT) quarters against Niddar Singh. I say good on Niddar Singh for exposing this and good on him for showing things as they are. Pictures don't lie and the demolition pictures are there for all to see.

On another note Jathedar Kulwant Singh seems to have abandoned the Martial tradition of the Hazoori Sikhs which was kept up by the previous Jathedar Joginder Singh Moni. He seems like an all round wimp, spineless and a corrupt to boot. Sorry for the strong words but what I am reading and the pictures make me really angry.:}--}:

Nihang Niddar Singh and Paramjit Singh should be praised for exposing this.

Gurufateh,
i have always liked your posts s.randeepsingh ji...but to this one i would like to tell you something which you were unable to see through the book...

1]Jathedar Kulwantsingh ji is a sewadar and he does not hold any power over the gurudwara board committee.He simply does his sewa which he is assigned by the guru himself.

2]Jathedar Kulwantsingh ji's father was assassinated when he was in his early ages (5yrs old).He never turned hot on the murderer though he came across him many times.this signifies he is a very calm man.

3]Jathedar Kulwantsingh ji and his family had seen the worst days because of no income as his father had already died.do you know that his mother and the rest of family went to gurudwaras [takht sahib and gurudwaras around the takht] as granthis i.e.reading baani's and gurudwara gives them some money...that time it was very less something around Rs.5 or less.but he and his family never left this sewa.

4]his mother used to clean iron rings,kadas for living an earning to support the family which brought her 5 paise or something like that for a single piece.

but the family and kulwantsinghji himself never gave up the love for the guru and the gurudwara.

when he was in his teen ages he started reciting shabads.infact he also recited shabads in the takht before he joined as granthi in the takht.this helped them earned some money for living.

the guru took him to such a great position only because of the love for the guru,living life how guru wanted to live him in spite of having a very hard early days, keeping faith in the guru no matter how hard the times were and finally love and faith and more importantly the respect for the takht and its surrounding gurudwaras which helped him come up.

do you still think a man of such a high calibre would be sitting ducks when his "home" was being demolished?

he and the other 4 pyaares tried and tried very hard but the committee didnt listened to any of their "requests".finally all hazuri sangat came to the site and the armed forces were finally called to guard the committee members.

when it was night time the forces were installed,jathedar kulwantsinghji went to his night sewa at 2 am in morning which he is not allowed to skip due to any reason,the bungas were demolished and do you really want to know the man who forced these demolitions?
P.S.Pasricha.the sangat requested him innumerable times and the committee too not to demolish these places of glorious and significant history but they did not payed heed to any of the "prayers"

The point is only that Jathedar Kulwantsinghji is only a calm man.
he gets a lot of threats from many people to stop the old traditions in around takht hazur saahib and start following the S.G.P.C. traditions but he never pays any heed nor does he increases security around himself.he only has 1 body guard and that too because it is mandatory.
he doesn't eats Non veg is his personal choice and no one can say that by not consuming non veg he is not following true Sikh traditions.spare him for that at least.

even my home was demolished.my grand father was a meet granthi in takht hazur sahib.whenever i go to the gurudwara i really cant express how hard i feel when i get to see a flashback of my chilhood in the so called "developed region".

similarly is the case with Jathedar Kulwantsingh ji's home.Even their home was not spared and the family moved out to abchal nagar society.if you say he is corrupt,then he would have made arrangements for his home not to be demolished.his mother is in her old ages now and when i asked her "what is the most important thing which you miss after shifting to abchal nagar society?"
i thought she will say her home....but do you know what her reply was..
she said "i miss the gurudwara the most.the sound of the shabads,the rehraas sahib, aarti, shastars....i really dont get to hear from the day when we moved here....but it is the guru's decision.i cant challenge it."
due to her old age and ailing legs she cant go to the gurudwara now as she has problems with stairs.

trust me we tried and we tried hardest.we were offered Money too but we never surrendered until the things went out of hand.

it's very easy naa to see few pictures and come to a conclusion.but life in reality is very hard especially when you are thrown out from the lap of your own beloved guru whom you and your generations had served for years.
 
@ Jagmeet_hazursahib ji, Sat Sri akal, Thanks for your post and writing about Jathedar of Sri Hazoor Sahib ji. Since last few months I was looking for information about him but I could not find that much. I visited sacred gurudwara in past since that inside of me just curious to know how he got chosen for this seva and his life before this seva. Personally I think he is very lucky to have Sachkhand's seva in his jholi. In other gurughar they have some different system but in Sri Hazur Sahib some thing different,what it is? I don't know its like magnet that want to keep you there.
 

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