Please, please, please help again!! I have wondered around on the internet for a week and somehow ended back here with new knowledge that Nadir Singh is now apologising for misleading information! I read through the conversation between add0002 ji and Randip ji and this is making absolutely no sense to me either! What are you talking about different sects? Shouldn't we be standing united in values, beliefs, understandings (shared) and knowledge of our Guru's words? I take it that Nadir Singh ji is a close friend and therefore someone that you both must know personally - thus understanding his intentions, and I respect that!
Hi Interested, unfortunately there are many many sects in Sikhism. In terms of Media bandwith on the internet, the AKJ or Akhand Kirtani Jatha, which was shaped by the rather uncompromising figure of Bhai Randhit Singh seems to have a disproportiantely large amount of control of web sites, and they SPIN their version of Sikhism at every opporunity, without compromise. When anyone challenges that (Niddar Singh an example), the media machine swings into motion and the the person is vilified.
Let me give you an example of their misinformation:
Here is Sikhism 101, another one of their arms. Here is an essay on the emotive topic of meat:
What is the attitude of Sikh Faith towards eating animals (i.e. meat)? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net
Now let me take 3 sections from their Historical Sources in this essay (as I love to read Sikh history books).
They quote Dabistan e Mazhib written by Mohsin Fani
Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:
<cite>"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."
</cite>
Now if I didn't read books I would believe this. Here is the same quote but from a a verifiable source:
Grewal, J.S.
Sikh History from Persian Sources: Translations of Major Texts ISBN-13 978-8185229171
Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance with Nanak’s wishes”. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.
Now look at the MISquote and wanton disregard for the TRUTH! I can supply the exact page too with page numbers.
Here is another example:
ਅਕ ਧਤੂਰਾ ਖਾਧਿਆਂ ਕੁਹਿ ਕੁਹਿ ਖਲ ਉਖਲਿ ਵਿਣਸੀ ॥
ਮਾਸੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਹੋਵਸੀ ॥
<cite>"I was eating 'Ak' and 'Dhatura' plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?
(Vaar 25, Pauri 7)</cite>
Elsewhere, Bhai Gurdaas Ji says:
ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ ॥
ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥
ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਿਲ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ ॥
<cite>"Goat is being killed, cut into pieces, and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating 'Ak' plant (weed found in India's desert fields). What will be the fate of those in the Court of the Lord who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?"
(Vaar 37, Pauri 21)</cite>
That is fine, but do not lie. Here is another couplet from Varan Bhai Gurdas:
Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar23Pauri13:SearchGurbani.com
<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="94%"><tbody><tr height="35"><td class="subhead1" align="center" valign="top">
Vaar 23 Pauri 13 Lesson from Goat
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">
ਹਸਤਿ ਅਖਾਜੁ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਹੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਖਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">
hasati akhaaju gumaan kari seehu sataanaa koi n khaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">
The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 1 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">
ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">
hoi nimaanee bakaree deen dunee vadiaaee paaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">
Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 2 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">
ਮਰਣੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਭੋਗਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">
maranai paranai manneeai jagi bhogi paravaanu karaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">
On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat dis accepted.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 3 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">
ਮਾਸੁ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਨੋ ਆਂਦਹੁ ਤਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਵਜਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">
maasu pavitr grihasat no aandahu taar veechaari vajaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">
Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 4 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">
ਚਮੜੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਤੀਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">
chamarhay deeaan kari juteeaa saadhoo charan sarani|iv|aaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">
From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 5 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">
ਤੂਰ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਮੜੀਦੇ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ।
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">
toor pakhaavaj marheeday keeratanu saadhasangati sukhadaaee|
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">
Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung.
</td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
Line 6 </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੧੩॥
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">
saadhasangati satigur saranaaee ॥13॥
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">
In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru.</td></tr></tbody></table>
My point is these people are LIARS and are manipulaters. They will stoop so low as to disregard Sikh ideals of Truth and Justice, just to push their own point of view. This is what they are doing with Niddar Singh.
BUT...
I was offered a link to a video on Nihang Singhs and let me say that after watching that I personally walked away thinking of how saintly these people are! What I took from this and another book that i have read is nothing like what Nadir Singh ji proposes! I have taken on board all that has been replied to me in the post I left both here and on Sikhnet but I have to say except that covering something in sugar is not going to make it go down any sweeter...
What book is this? Are these people Nihangs or AKJer's dressed as Nihangs?
What I mean by this is we can say that Guru Gobind Singh ji lived through a tough time and had to fight for Sikhism so therefore the weapon is a god-like but we know that what is meant here is that religious war was our Guru's last option - he watch as his 2 sons were killed and never once held hatred for that, his army served food and cared for all men on the field, Guru Gobind Singh ji used the weapons as a METAPHOR and a metaphor only. Sugar coat it, but do we really believe that our Guru's wanted us to bow before a sword - I think not.
I keep various weapons in the house, and I treat them with great respect. I don't worship them (although to the outsider it may seem so), the reason why was because these weapons have been in our family for generations. They are the reason why Randip Singh is on this planet. The Sikh's of old treated their weapons with great care. They were Guerilla's in effect and had to, and that is why they treated them like that. They gave their weapons names, and even characteristics. That is why they are their.
The Guru's, Bandha Bahadhur and the Misls fought many battle's. Thier lives dependended on these weapons. Niddar S=ingh is saying nothing different from this. Like I said read some more books.
Secondly, the idea of Hinduism being embedded in Sikhism - lets go back to Guru Nanak - "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" ! We are all on a journey that only God knows. There are many paths to follow and each will take his own. Our Guru's spoke of useless rituals and worship, so how does someone so educated write of it being embedded?
The Guru's spoke but did we listen? He spoke against caste yet caste is stronger than ever in Punajb today amongst Sikhs!
The Guru's spoke about the place of women, banned Sati and female infanticide, yet it is practiced more in Punab amongst Sikhs than any other groups.
Dr IJ Singh and Kohli talk in their books about the strong Vashnavite influences that taint Sikhism today.
This is not anger that drives me to write this, in fact the opposite. I just wonder how we got it all so wrong at the very basics? How do we get ourselves (as 1 sikh community with humanity) back to what our Guru's teach us? How do we pay our respects to the real Nihangs who have sacrificed their lives for our teachers in the past and would again, if required?
What are real Nihangs? What are your definitions? What the manipulative AKJ sites tell you? or teh followers of Yogi Bhajan? Maybe the Vashnavite orientatetd Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha?
We need to get back to Sikhi, but lets face up to our history.
In closing, Ek Onka, sat naam! I may not know much but I always carry the first line of Jaapji Sahib - it doesn't matter what we call ourselves - whether it a sect of SIkhism or a different religious view altogether - in the end there is ONE GOD and his name is TRUTH!!!
Indeed. In order to pursue Truth immerse yourself in Sikh history.
