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Hinduism Idol Worship?

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Hinduism Idol Worship?

Kamala

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Umm please do not get offended about the following:

Do you think bowing down in the Gurdwara to the Guru ji is Idol worship? I mean lets face it... we all know the Guru ji is a pavitr text and not a person in the Gurdwara (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji).. so since bowing down to Idols is bad isn't that bad that we bow down to the Guru ji even though they told us not to? Also I'm confused on why we can't pray in a room where we have our guru's photos and were the Sikh Gurus "Devtas"?, because Guru Nanak DEV ji has that word in his name so does that mean he was not human? Thank you!!:)
 

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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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when Hindus ( or others) bow to statues..thats the be all and end all...they DONT EXPECT the statue to talk..say something..have a message...ZILCH. Those are REAL IDOLS.

SGGS has a message..just open and read..the Guru talks back to you..advises you....anyone can consult the Guru..any time..any place..anyhow...the SGGS is NOT an IDOL..not by a long shot...

Imagine a Horse...one made of stone....and another LIVE one....the Live one can be fed..used as a means of transport..companionship..loved..respected....the STONE is just a STONE...but IF a person seeing soemone BOW to a stone horse..wants to BOW to a lIVE Horse..its His wish...what can we do...other than he understand that he cna ride the living horse..enjoy its company..etc...

so if a SIKH seeing a Hindu bowing to Sri ganesh..wnats to bow to SGGs in the same way..thats his wish...while the Sri ganesh will keep his trunk tightly shut..the SGGS cna be opened and READ..consulted..depended upon for comfort and companionship....There are LOTS of Sikhs who treat the Living horse same a s a STONE ONE !!
 

Kamala

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May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
I understand what you are saying Gyani ji, but when we bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in the gurdwara, we cannot freely go and read it... it's all in poetic forms and hard to understand to the naked eye.
 

Ambarsaria

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I understand what you are saying Gyani ji, but when we bow down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in the gurdwara, we cannot freely go and read it... it's all in poetic forms and hard to understand to the naked eye.
13800038 ji thanks for your post.

I assume you know Punjabi. Because if you don't then you have a dependency on Phonetics and/or translations of others.

You can go to the following site to read it page by page in Punjabi, Hindi and English,

srigranth.org

You can download Gurbani for reading on your computer from the following,

http://www.gurbanifiles.org/translations/index.htm

In terms of bowing, it is a simple way to respect and a moment of introspection for me. I read as I need on the computer.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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MATHA TEKNA

There are many ways and there are many levels of paying respect to someone. There are
different methods of greeting your friend, your parents, your teacher your fellow citizen etc.
Some people fold their hands in front of their chest and bend their head slightly; some bend
their body at the waist with their head bending downwards and hands going backwards like the
Japanese, most people handshake; some people embrace each other, etc… In India, people bow
so as to touch the feet of an elderly holy person or parents, is an age-old custom to express
respect. It is practiced even today as good manners. Respecting your parents by bowing
before them is not human worship. It is a ritual to pay respect. Some religions do Matha tek
to Dharti (Earth), others do matha tek to Sooraj (Sun).

To begin with matha tekna starts with our repect towards our Guru Ji. “Matha” means
forehead and “Tekna” means to place or to submit. It is bowing down on the knees and touching
the floor with our forehead in front of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is the Sikh way of paying
obeisance to our living eternal Guru, Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We are required to take off our
shoes, socks and cover our head before entering the prayer hall. No tobacco or intoxicants are
allowed. Worshippers generally place offerings in front of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in a box
called Golak, but this is not mandatory. Non-Sikhs are not required to bow, but may enter and
quietly join the congregation.

Utmost respect and humility is desired in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru
Granth Sahib Ji’s presence in darbaar is like Guru Nanak Dev Ji or any other Guru Sahib is.
Sikhs bow before Guru Granth Sahib Ji in total submission. In fact we bow to the Guru that
is embodied in the Guru Granth Sahib, as a Shabad guru. Sikhs are not allowed to bow before
any person or shrine other that Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a Guru.

This is not idol worship. Philosophically, this means that when we bow before Guru Ji, we
make a promise to ourselves to follow the path suggested by Guru Ji. It is something similar to
taking an oath to the constitution by raising our right hand. It signifies that we acknowledge our
human failings in front of the Guru and ask forgiveness and His blessing. We are submitting and
surrendering ourselves to Guru Ji, i.e. giving up our "mat" (our thoughts), meaning manmat. At
the same time requesting Guru Ji to guide us in all our endeavors, which is Gurmat.
As we know, we have writings about our life written by Akalpurkh (the creator) on our
forehead.

lyKy AMdr sB ko sBnW msqk lyK ilKwXw]
laekhae andhur subh ko subhunaa musuthuk laekh likhaayaa

All are responsible (for their actions) and carry writ of fate on their forehead.
Only Guru’s blessing can cut our sins and rearrange these writings.

nwnk iqh bMDn kty gur kI crnI pwih ]1]
Naanak thih ba(n)dhhan kattae gur kee charanee paahi ||1|| Panna 259

O Guru Nanak, one who falls at the Feet of the Guru, has his bonds cut away. ||1||

This gesture is not only about submitting but also receiving. A Sikh takes back Guru’s blessings
and His Hukam (the order). The Hukam is to be put into practice in our daily life. By doing
Matha tek we get the energy from Guru Ji to fight off all evils.

kwmu k®oDu loBu qij gey ipAwry siqgur crnI pwie ]5]
kaam krodhh lobh thaj geae piaarae sathigur charanee paae ||5||
Lust, anger and greed left me, O Beloved, when I fell at the Feet of the True Guru. ||5||

Guru Angad Dev Ji emphasizes that:
jo isru sWeI nw invY so isru dIjY fwir ]
jo sir saaee naa nivai so sir kap outhaar

Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.
Guru Ji tells us the consequences of not submitting ourselves to Guru Ji;
aun siqgur AwgY sIsu n byicAw Eie Awvih jwih ABwgy ]

They have not sold their heads to the True Guru; those wretched, unfortunate ones continue
coming and going in reincarnation.

On the other hand if one bows for the sake of bowing then it is merely a hollow ritual and the
meaning of the act is lost. Guru Sahib says in Asa di-var:

"AprwDI dUxw invY jo hMqw imrgwih] sIis invwieAY ikAw QIAY jw irdY kusuDy jwih]1]"

"A culprit who has an evil desire of hunting a deer has to bring himself down to his knees in order to kill
a deer. What is the use of bowing if your intentions are not good or there is evil in your mind"?

source: http://www.insightvaluation.com/sc/Sikhi411/MathaTekna.pdf
 

Tejwant Singh

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Matah Teknah in front of SGGS, our only Guru means commitment to read, understand,learn and practice the message in there. SGGS does not need a $1.00 in front but our Guru demands from us our Tan, Mann and Dhan so that we can breed goodness within and share it with others.

Otherwise, it is nothing but idol worshipping, feeding a stone horse using Gyani ji's wonderful analogy.

Tejwant Singh
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Sister ,To save his bhagat, God is said to have appeared from a stone pillar and as for pictures or statues ,anyone who loves someone keeps their likeness,it does not mean they are in love with a picture or statue,that is simply a misunderstanding of it.Respect is essential and that is what the bow is for.
narasimha1.jpg
 
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Ambarsaria

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Veer Joginder Singh Foley ji people who want to screw Sikhism and make it look like Hinduism or some other -ism start and inject this all the time. It is pretty naive and generally comes from lack of maturity, ignorance or malice. Unfortunately lot of the time the latter.

We tolerate, kind of. Many do get distracted and made into doubters fulfilling wishes of the muck rakers.

Very rarely are such raised out of honesty or genuine desire to learn. When they don't get the kind of answer expected, they go into hibernation and start another doubt generating thread.

We tolerate/ignore.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Sister ,To save his bhagat, God is said to have appeared from a stone pillar and as for pictures or statues ,anyone who loves someone keeps their likeness,it does not mean they are in love with a picture or statue,that is simply a misunderstanding of it.Respect is essential and that is what the bow is for.
View attachment 6447
Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

Please explain this picture. It is most unpleasant and must have some meaning in this discussion.

As for worshiping the form of our Eternal Guru, that just isn't the case. The matha tek is a gesture of the same love, respect and devotion I would give to any of our ten human Gurus if they were here.
 
Apr 25, 2006
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Mai ji,
Here is the story behind that picture posted by Sp ji, it appears many times in SGGS:
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
भैरउ महला ३ ॥
Bẖairo mėhlā 3.
Bhairao, Third Mehl:

ਮੇਰੀ ਪਟੀਆ ਲਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥
मेरी पटीआ लिखहु हरि गोविंद गोपाला ॥
Merī patī▫ā likẖahu har govinḏ gopālā.
Upon my writing tablet, I write the Name of the Lord, the Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the World.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਫਾਥੇ ਜਮ ਜਾਲਾ ॥
दूजै भाइ फाथे जम जाला ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e fāthe jam jālā.
In the love of duality, the mortals are caught in the noose of the Messenger of Death.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥
सतिगुरु करे मेरी प्रतिपाला ॥
Saṯgur kare merī parṯipālā.
The True Guru nurtures and sustains me.

ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਾ ॥੧॥
हरि सुखदाता मेरै नाला ॥१॥
Har sukẖ▫ḏāṯa merai nālā. ||1||
The Lord, the Giver of peace, is always with me. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਹਰਿ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
गुर उपदेसि प्रहिलादु हरि उचरै ॥
Gur upḏes par▫hilāḏ har ucẖrai.
Following his Guru's instructions, Prahlaad chanted the Lord's Name;

ਸਾਸਨਾ ਤੇ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਗਮੁ ਨ ਕਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सासना ते बालकु गमु न करै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sāsnā ṯe bālak gam na karai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
he was a child, but he was not afraid when his teacher yelled at him. ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਤਾ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥
माता उपदेसै प्रहिलाद पिआरे ॥
Māṯā upḏesai par▫hilāḏ pi▫āre.
Prahlaad's mother gave her beloved son some advice:

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰੇ ॥
पुत्र राम नामु छोडहु जीउ लेहु उबारे ॥
Puṯar rām nām cẖẖodahu jī▫o leho ubāre.
My son, you must abandon the Lord's Name, and save your life!

ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
प्रहिलादु कहै सुनहु मेरी माइ ॥
Par▫hilāḏ kahai sunhu merī mā▫e.
Prahlaad said: "Listen, O my mother;

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ॥੨॥
राम नामु न छोडा गुरि दीआ बुझाइ ॥२॥
Rām nām na cẖẖodā gur ḏī▫ā bujẖā▫e. ||2||
I shall never give up the Lord's Name. My Guru has taught me this."||2||

ਸੰਡਾ ਮਰਕਾ ਸਭਿ ਜਾਇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥
संडा मरका सभि जाइ पुकारे ॥
Sandā markā sabẖ jā▫e pukāre.
Sandaa and Markaa, his teachers, went to his father the king, and complained:

ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਗੜਿਆ ਸਭਿ ਚਾਟੜੇ ਵਿਗਾੜੇ ॥
प्रहिलादु आपि विगड़िआ सभि चाटड़े विगाड़े ॥
Par▫hilāḏ āp vigṛi▫ā sabẖ cẖātṛe vigāṛe.
Prahlaad himself has gone astray, and he leads all the other pupils astray.

ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਪਕਾਇਆ ॥
दुसट सभा महि मंत्रु पकाइआ ॥
Ḏusat sabẖā mėh manṯar pakā▫i▫ā.
In the court of the wicked king, a plan was hatched.

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਕਾ ਰਾਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
प्रहलाद का राखा होइ रघुराइआ ॥३॥
Parahlāḏ kā rākẖā ho▫e ragẖurā▫i▫ā. ||3||
God is the Savior of Prahlaad. ||3||

ਹਾਥਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਿ ਧਾਇਆ ਅਤਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
हाथि खड़गु करि धाइआ अति अहंकारि ॥
Hāth kẖaṛag kar ḏẖā▫i▫ā aṯ ahaʼnkār.
With sword in hand, and with great egotistical pride, Prahlaad's father ran up to him.

ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਹਾ ਤੁਝੁ ਲਏ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥
हरि तेरा कहा तुझु लए उबारि ॥
Har ṯerā kahā ṯujẖ la▫e ubār.
Where is your Lord, who will save you?

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੈਆਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਕਸਿਆ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਉਪਾੜਿ ॥
खिन महि भैआन रूपु निकसिआ थम्ह उपाड़ि ॥
Kẖin mėh bẖai▫ān rūp niksi▫ā thamĥ upāṛ.
In an instant, the Lord appeared in a dreadful form, and shattered the pillar.

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਨਖੀ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਲੀਆ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥੪॥
हरणाखसु नखी बिदारिआ प्रहलादु लीआ उबारि ॥४॥
Harṇākẖas nakẖī biḏāri▫ā parahlāḏ lī▫ā ubār. ||4||
Harnaakhash was torn apart by His claws, and Prahlaad was saved. ||4||


ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
संत जना के हरि जीउ कारज सवारे ॥
Sanṯ janā ke har jī▫o kāraj savāre.
The Dear Lord completes the tasks of the Saints.

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਜਨ ਕੇ ਇਕੀਹ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥
प्रहलाद जन के इकीह कुल उधारे ॥
Parahlāḏ jan ke ikīh kul uḏẖāre.
He saved twenty-one generations of Prahlaad's descendents.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਰੇ ॥
गुर कै सबदि हउमै बिखु मारे ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ ha▫umai bikẖ māre.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the poison of egotism is neutralized.

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੦॥
नानक राम नामि संत निसतारे ॥५॥१०॥२०॥
Nānak rām nām sanṯ nisṯāre. ||5||10||20||
O Nanak, through the Name of the Lord, the Saints are emancipated. ||5||10||20||
Guru Granth Sahib Page 1133
 
Aug 29, 2010
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when Hindus ( or others) bow to statues..thats the be all and end all...they DONT EXPECT the statue to talk..say something..have a message...ZILCH. Those are REAL IDOLS.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has a message..just open and read..the Guru talks back to you..advises you....anyone can consult the Guru..any time..any place..anyhow...the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is NOT an IDOL..not by a long shot...

Imagine a Horse...one made of stone....and another LIVE one....the Live one can be fed..used as a means of transport..companionship..loved..respected....the STONE is just a STONE...but IF a person seeing soemone BOW to a stone horse..wants to BOW to a lIVE Horse..its His wish...what can we do...other than he understand that he cna ride the living horse..enjoy its company..etc...

so if a SIKH seeing a Hindu bowing to Sri ganesh..wnats to bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the same way..thats his wish...while the Sri ganesh will keep his trunk tightly shut..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cna be opened and READ..consulted..depended upon for comfort and companionship....There are LOTS of Sikhs who treat the Living horse same a s a STONE ONE !!
Can any LIVING HORSE be figureless.?

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਹਾ ਤੁਝੁ ਲਏ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥
हरि तेरा कहा तुझु लए उबारि ॥
Har ṯerā kahā ṯujẖ la▫e ubār.
Where is your Lord, who will save you?

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੈਆਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਕਸਿਆ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਉਪਾੜਿ ॥
खिन महि भैआन रूपु निकसिआ थम्ह उपाड़ि ॥
Kẖin mėh bẖai▫ān rūp niksi▫ā thamĥ upāṛ.
In an instant, the Lord appeared in a dreadful form, and shattered the pillar.

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਨਖੀ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਲੀਆ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥੪॥
हरणाखसु नखी बिदारिआ प्रहलादु लीआ उबारि ॥४॥
Harṇākẖas nakẖī biḏāri▫ā parahlāḏ lī▫ā ubār. ||4||
Harnaakhash was torn apart by His claws, and Prahlaad was saved. ||4||


ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
संत जना के हरि जीउ कारज सवारे ॥
Sanṯ janā ke har jī▫o kāraj savāre.
The Dear Lord completes the tasks of the Saints.

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਜਨ ਕੇ ਇਕੀਹ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥
प्रहलाद जन के इकीह कुल उधारे ॥
Parahlāḏ jan ke ikīh kul uḏẖāre.
He saved twenty-one generations of Prahlaad's descendents.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਰੇ ॥
गुर कै सबदि हउमै बिखु मारे ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ ha▫umai bikẖ māre.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the poison of egotism is neutralized.

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੦॥
नानक राम नामि संत निसतारे ॥५॥१०॥२०॥
Nānak rām nām sanṯ nisṯāre. ||5||10||20||
O Guru Nanak, through the Name of the Lord, the Saints are emancipated. ||5||10||20||
Guru Granth Sahib Page 1133


Would that mean Vishnu is god because he appeared in one of his avatars and he is called the lord?? See, these stuff like this confuse me so much. Before Sikhism terms like "Hari/Ram/Bhagwan" were made for God (Vishnu [or it seemed]) but I feel he is not God but one of the THREE chosen gods. But why do Sikhs STILL use these terms and say it means god when it is actually describing Vishnu? Why can't they just stick to the pavitar name "Waheguru"? Also Harimandir Sahib confuses me because of the name.... Hari = Vishnu ji. Sikhs say Hari = God. WOULD THAT MEAN IT IS GOD'S MANDIR? (Vishnu [I don't really know if Vishnu ji is god and stuff like this confuse me.)?
 
Aug 29, 2010
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13800038;
For correct understanding of the sabad one should understand the basic concept of Gurbani related to GuR JoTi/Prabh JoTi.All the references in Gurbani like HARi/RAM/Bhagwan and so on are directed for GuRu-GuR.
In Gurbani there is no concept of GOD this should be very clear in mind but I find very hard for any one to come out of this .
The meaning of the word HARi in Gurbani is not a reference for VISHANU.In Gurbani the word HARi is very very exclusive.It is the reference for PRABH JOTi and has the meaning as OMNIPOTENT.
HARi MANDIR means MANDIR OF OMNIPOTENT.
At the moment I can furnish only this information for you to share.
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Guru Fateh.

The Shabad is based on Hindu mythology and it gives us the insight of people who dwell in me-ism, which is derived from power and egotism. This Shabad is used as a metaphor because of the basis of Hindu Mythology and if you know something about mythology, most of the things are imagined. In Sikhi, Ik Ong Kaar is not a personified deity but Formless,Timeless, Genderless Energy. So, this deity in the Shabad which is also a kind of Sakhi has nothing to do with the Sikhi concept of Ik Ong Kaar.

First of all the literal translation in English is quite misleading. This is the reason, I ask the posters not to post anything blindly but give your own version along with it so the distorted things can be corrected.

However, he last three verses of the Shabad explain everything:

The interpretation is mine:

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
संत जना के हरि जीउ कारज सवारे ॥
Sanṯ janā ke har jī▫o kāraj savāre.

Those who shed ME-ISM and dwell in ONE-ISM, their lives are full of peace and they are able to confront all odds that life offers them/us.

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਜਨ ਕੇ ਇਕੀਹ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥
प्रहलाद जन के इकीह कुल उधारे ॥
Parahlāḏ jan ke ikīh kul uḏẖāre.

This is the continuation of the Hindu mythology which meains that the 21 generations of Prahalad learnt from his actions of just being with the ONE and started living in ONE-ism, sans egotism. They seeked the only ONE Ik Ong Kaar.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਰੇ ॥
गुर कै सबदि हउमै बिखु मारे ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ ha▫umai bikẖ māre.

Only Shabad Guru can make us get rid of ego and Me-ism so that we can breed goodness within and share with others, hence make them better.

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੦॥
नानक राम नामि संत निसतारे ॥५॥१०॥२०॥
Nānak rām nām sanṯ nisṯāre. ||5||10||20||

Oh, Guru Nanak, this is the only way out. When one breeds goodness with the help of Ik Ong Kaar then,one lives in peace with him/herself and others whom they get in touch with.
Guru Granth Sahib Page 1133

@ Parkash Singh ji,

The concept of omnipotent Hari/God./Yahweh/ Allah etc etc is the Ambrahamical concept, not a Sikhi one and it is linked to a deity, which Sikhi rejects.

I would like you to study about this in a deeper manner from Sikhi point of view..

If what you claim were true, then there would not be any Manmukh. All will be Gurmukhs.

Hence your claim, "HARi MANDIR means MANDIR OF OMNIPOTENT" is bogus and an insult to Sikhi because as mentioned before, Sikhi has no concept like that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Last edited:
Aug 29, 2010
1,514
1,114
67
13800038;

Guru Fateh.

The Shabad is based on Hindu mythology and it gives us the insight of people who dwell in me-ism, which is derived from power and egotism. This Shabad is used as a metaphor because of the basis of Hindu Mythology and if you know something about mythology, most of the things are imagined. In Sikhi, Ik Ong Kaar is not a personified deity but Formless,Timeless, Genderless Energy. So, this deity in the Shabad which is also a kind of Sakhi has nothing to do with the Sikhi concept of Ik Ong Kaar.

First of all the literal translation in English is quite misleading. This is the reason, I ask the posters not to post anything blindly but give your own version along with it so the distorted things can be corrected.

However, he last three verses of the Shabad explain everything:

The interpretation is mine:

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
संत जना के हरि जीउ कारज सवारे ॥
Sanṯ janā ke har jī▫o kāraj savāre.

Those who shed ME-ISM and dwell in ONE-ISM, their lives are full of peace and they are able to confront all odds that life offers them/us.

ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਜਨ ਕੇ ਇਕੀਹ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥
प्रहलाद जन के इकीह कुल उधारे ॥
Parahlāḏ jan ke ikīh kul uḏẖāre.

This is the continuation of the Hindu mythology which meains that the 21 generations of Prahalad learnt from his actions of just being with the ONE and started living in ONE-ism, sans egotism. They seeked the only ONE Ik Ong Kaar.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਰੇ ॥
गुर कै सबदि हउमै बिखु मारे ॥
Gur kai sabaḏ ha▫umai bikẖ māre.

Only Shabad Guru can make us get rid of ego and Me-ism so that we can breed goodness within and share with others, hence make them better.

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੦॥
नानक राम नामि संत निसतारे ॥५॥१०॥२०॥
Nānak rām nām sanṯ nisṯāre. ||5||10||20||

Oh, Guru Nanak, this is the only way out. When one breeds goodness with the help of Ik Ong Kaar then,one lives in peace with him/herself and others whom they get in touch with.
Guru Granth Sahib Page 1133

@ Parkash Singh ji,

The concept of omnipotent Hari/God./Yahweh/ Allah etc etc is the Ambrahamical concept, not a Sikhi one and it is linked to a deity, which Sikhi rejects.

I would like you to study about this in a deeper manner from Sikhi point of view..

If what you claim were true, then there would not be any Manmukh. All will be Gurmukhs.

Hence your claim, "HARi MANDIR means MANDIR OF OMNIPOTENT" is bogus and an insult to Sikhi because as mentioned before, Sikhi has no concept like that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
It seems that you are not familiar with the meanings of Gurmukhi words
so this is expected from you.
I have stated as the fact of Gurbani you have all right to reject as this is your own understanding.I just cant do any more than this.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,029
7,158
Henderson, NV.
It seems that you are not familiar with the meanings of Gurmukhi words
so this is expected from you.
I have stated as the fact of Gurbani you have all right to reject as this is your own understanding.I just cant do any more than this.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Once again you are dancing around the words when challenged. Now, be an honest Sikh and tell me which Gurmukhi words you claim I am not familiar with. I would like you to teach me.

But that is not the point and it has nothing to do with Gurmukhi but Sikhi concept of omnipotence which is Abrahamical, Hindu and of all other religions that require deities which Sikhi is not part of.

I am sure you understand the Sikhi concept of Ik Ong Kaar which requires no deity nor any personified god.

So, I have no idea what your gripe is about Sikhi concept of not having a deity, but as a Sikh I would always love to learn. It is my duty.

I will wait for the Gurmukhi words you are talking about that you claim I do not get. You are the best teacher to show me and I thank you for your help.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
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Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.

prakash.s.bagga said:
In Gurbani the word HARi is very very exclusive.It is the reference for PRABH JOTi and has the meaning as OMNIPOTENT.
This Sir is the most insulting thing you can say in the name or guise of an intellectual or Gurbani student. This is a straight extrapolation of Hindu Philosophy to some how link it to our Guru jis, who spent all their lives helping such forsaken. May you get wisdom one day. Probably getting late given your age and this is how you spent all your 60 years as a Sikh. One wonders how many you so misguided!

prakash.s.bagga said:
HARi MANDIR means MANDIR OF OMNIPOTENT.
Another insulting comment. Now let us see if you can some how link it to Hari-diwar (Hardawar). So I suppose you go to Hardawar (door to your Omnipotent) to enter and come out at Harmandir Sahib as described by you.

So attack on Harmandir Sahib in 1984 was an attack on the Mandir of the Omnipotent. I wonder how it is even possible to do so because the bricks acted like bricks, people there were made of flesh got burnt and killed by bullets, the Marble acted like marble against bullets and what was set on fire burnt. Probably the omni-potent went on vacation or perhaps that is not what is meant by Harmandir or Darbar Sahib.

prakash.s.bagga said:
HARi is very very exclusive.It is the reference for PRABH JOTi and has the meaning as OMNIPOTENT.
It is good you have finally shown your true colors. A person trapped in Hindu mythology and sees through such colored glasses.

The closest that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji comes to giving a name is in the following,

(Ik▫oaʼnkār)
............... even here right away it is stated as infinite and undefinable, somehow you have defined what Guru ji say cannot be defined!


I am very sad and sorry to read your post.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Last edited:
Aug 29, 2010
1,514
1,114
67
Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Once again you are dancing around the words when challenged. Now, be an honest Sikh and tell me which Gurmukhi words you claim I am not familiar with. I would like you to teach me.

But that is not the point and it has nothing to do with Gurmukhi but Sikhi concept of omnipotence which is Abrahamical, Hindu and of all other religions that require deities which Sikhi is not part of.

I am sure you understand the Sikhi concept of Ik Ong Kaar which requires no deity nor any personified god.

So, I have no idea what your gripe is about Sikhi concept of not having a deity, but as a Sikh I would always love to learn. It is my duty.

I will wait for the Gurmukhi words you are talking about that you claim I do not get. You are the best teacher to show me and I thank you for your help.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I am not a teacher so I can be of no use regarding what you want to know.
Better you give more thinking to Gurbani words and I am sure GuRu will be teaching you with grace.
I find you dont believe that all Noun /Adjective words have specific meaning attached to it.Your good NAME is TEJWANT SINGh,isnt it.
Now is the word TEJWANT meaningless or it has some good meaning to convey.This is for you to analyse what you should know with respect to NOUN/ADJECTIVE words in Gurbani.
Prakash.s.Bagga
 

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