Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Anpreet]

currently i have not met anyone but have friends who are from other castes. I am trying to meet someone who is jatt because of the pressure from family but so far have not connected with anyone. The problem i have is that if i met someone who was sikh and who i got on with really well but they happened to be a different caste, I would have to let them go. Now I find that very difficult because, 1. I hate the caste system and 2. As a sikh my understanding is that everyone is equal and therefore there should be no caste system. But what are you supposed to do when your family are set on you marrying within your own caste???

 

[kds1980]

As a Sikh my understanding is that everyone is equal and therefore there should be no caste system. But what are you supposed to do when your family are set on you marrying within your own caste???

I agree That as a sikh we all are equal but for family sometimes we have to do things which we don't accept.As far as Ifs and buts are concerned they are too many leave it too god

 

[spnadmin]

currently i have not met anyone but have friends who are from other castes. I am trying to meet someone who is jatt because of the pressure from family but so far have not connected with anyone. The problem i have is that if i met someone who was sikh and who i got on with really well but they happened to be a different caste, I would have to let them go. Now I find that very difficult because, 1. I hate the caste system and 2. As a sikh my understanding is that everyone is equal and therefore there should be no caste system. But what are you supposed to do when your family are set on you marrying within your own caste???

Anpreet ji

Every single word in your comment above comes from the mind of someone who is ruled by respect for the shabad. You are now feeling what the Gurus have told us over and over. The path is not easy. It is very hard. Do not abandon your principles but try to educate the people around you. That will also be hard. Then ask yourself if you can firmly move in a direction that makes sense to you. Can you do this in spite of the hardship that may result? And remember that you are not the first person or the only person who wrestles with hard choices with painful consequences. Our history is about people who have made hard choices. One last word: families forgive in time. Parents are not monsters (you know that) they act from love but also from their own confusion as human beings.

 

[manjsingh]

I Have married out of religion - I'm Sikh and My Wife Hindu Brahmin. I have two daughters who will respect both faiths, however they lean more towards Sikhi. My Wife and I have decided to go our separate ways due to various reasons, but religion isnt and has never been an argument point

 

[spnadmin]

manjsingh ji

What I appreciate about your comment is your honesty. There is no one way that things are going to turn out with a marriage or with children when a couple come from different religions. And you give a good example of how subtle differences of opinion can be in a relationship having little to do with religion. Thank you for picking up my spirits.

 

[Archived_Member5]

The Sikh faith has suffered many assault from within and without on its standing. I consider it my moral duty to marry all family members to a person of the Sikh faith, Although compromised by circumstance prevailing, it is at times difficult to adhere to a principle given the predicament or plight one may suffer in the course of life’s trials and travails.

Marrying in any form whether to one’s own or of another faith is reliant and prospers greater when done with the wholehearted blessings of both respective families. In the absence of such an approval forthcoming, then it is not considered a marriage but an elopement. True success in life is to live within the goodwill of elders, peers and by setting an exemplary standard to the youngsters.

A Sikhs first and devoutest love is Waheguru, His creator and end to whom he will ultimately return, Secondly it is to his brethren. They who remain in good faith with both are blessed, there is no other love other than infatuation, need or desire that would cause a person to rebel against a family for one person, whom they couldn’t reconcile with their erstwhile brood.

 

[dushanka]

I am born in Serbia but have indian roots , grow up with god in a very human and faithfull serbian orthodox family (my parents wish was to get back to our Sikh roots i am on the way to realize that ) My ex-husband was serb.orthodox too . A marriage works only with patience and BIG understanding for eachother ,religion does not play a big role. Religions are just different ways to achieve the same destination.Which role does it play which way we go if at the end we all reach to the same destination ?:yes:

 

[Archived_Member5]

Religions are very important and play a vital role in determining spirit and characteristics. The advent of globalisation countermands a global culture, a merging of a divided world, fused with a love and understanding of one another’s cultural tradition and religions, not a disbanding of them. We have witnessed the effects of rampant feminism and irreligosity in America and have no desire to mimic its social and moral decay in other regions of the world.

Nations can prosper economically, and coexist with the data and information one can learn so much and become as one and of a worldly spirit with =out a sacrifice of one’s own religion and national heritage. The phenomenally rich, armed and prosperous west suffers, struggles, its emancipated so called free people have greater personal problems and social ills than the entire world collectively.

Religion is a spiritual path towards understanding the world and ones role within it, whilst gaining spiritual realisation and awakening. The wise seek to amalgamate the world into a great garden of diversity, the ignorant seek to break all the ancient institutions of philosophy, religion and moral codes of honour in a vain attempt to destroy something their own lack prohibits from understanding or attaining. We need only look to America to observe the ramifications of so call free will and equality. It seeks to blame Islam for the usurping of its own peoples civil liberties, to conceal its own dangerously antisocial and Anti-Christ agenda.

We are in the dark age, feed human souls with love than grind the personal axe’s of one’s perceived failings.

 

[pk70]

Marriages within or out of religion fail too. So what is that which cements it?

“Unconditional love and respect for each other” This is a state of mind where “should be” tone disappears and happiness and peace of mind becomes ultimate goal. Compromise is a surrender of the soul; love doesn’t demand that but actually nourishes the soul. If one is practically religious, it will be difficult for him/her to seek partner out of his/her chosen destiny

 

[spnadmin]

pk70 ji

This is so perfectly expressed

 

[dushanka]

Sat sri akal pk70 Ji

i agree 100% .

 

[Archived_Member5]

Marriages within or out of religion fail too. So what is that which cements it?

“Unconditional love and respect for each other” This is a state of mind where “should be” tone disappears and happiness and peace of mind becomes ultimate goal. Compromise is a surrender of the soul; love doesn’t demand that but actually nourishes the soul. If one is practically religious, it will be difficult for him/her to seek partner out of his/her chosen destiny

It was in times a few decades preceding of close knit communities and each supporting one another in happy times and sad. Where problems arose, elders would intercede and resolve any breakdowns in communication and lapse of good judgment. Men and women in groups would discuss their home lives and the realisation that all undergo testing times made life greater in challenges and the satisfaction of overcoming and triumphing in matters of family, spousal and social relations.

The advent of the emancipated woman demanding her equality has led actually to a contrary outcome, in that in a free and promiscuous market people are less tolerant and likely to face conflicts with courage and cast aside responsibilities and marital vows win the efface of any hardship. Adultery remains the primary reason for most marital relationships, the lowering of standards and tolerance of promiscuous women has created what is a woman is woman’s greatest enemy, as less than one percent of men are likely to leave a marriage unless they are so incited by external influences.

Lack of social cohesion, alienation from ones community and family result in troubles that can be ironed out and remedied with a little applied diplomacy and understanding. In his misguided quest for freedom mankind finds itself in deeper turmoil and greater upheaval, chained to the shackles of an unstable and volatile world wherein little is dependable or trusted to be relied upon. There is then a devout need for the sanctum of religion, as stringent disciplines produce a highly substantive grade of human’s beings. The more society has shed its morals and principles, it would appear happiness, peace of mind and freedom has lessened in direct correlation.

May lessons to be learnt for modernist. It was heartbreaking to find tilaq exists in many household in Punjab. Let us awaken from this slumber, and rise to the challenges and overcome these misleading neon lights of promise and make concerted attempts to remain faithful to traditional values. The societal structure stands upon the family, when the family is destroyed the foundation is shaken dislodging long standing institutions with it.

 

[pk70]

Marriages within or out of religion fail too. So what is that which cements it?

“Unconditional love and respect for each other” This is a state of mind where “should be” tone disappears and happiness and peace of mind becomes ultimate goal. Compromise is a surrender of the soul; love doesn’t demand that but actually nourishes the soul. If one is practically religious, it will be difficult for him/her to seek partner out of his/her chosen destiny

It was in times a few decades preceding of close knit communities and each supporting one another in happy times and sad. Where problems arose, elders would intercede and resolve any breakdowns in communication and lapse of good judgment. Men and women in groups would discuss their home lives and the realisation that all undergo testing times made life greater in challenges and the satisfaction of overcoming and triumphing in matters of family, spousal and social relations.

The advent of the emancipated woman demanding her equality has led actually to a contrary outcome, in that in a free and promiscuous market people are less tolerant and likely to face conflicts with courage and cast aside responsibilities and marital vows win the efface of any hardship. Adultery remains the primary reason for most marital relationships, the lowering of standards and tolerance of promiscuous women has created what is a woman is woman’s greatest enemy, as less than one percent of men are likely to leave a marriage unless they are so incited by external influences.

Lack of social cohesion, alienation from ones community and family result in troubles that can be ironed out and remedied with a little applied diplomacy and understanding. In his misguided quest for freedom mankind finds itself in deeper turmoil and greater upheaval, chained to the shackles of an unstable and volatile world wherein little is dependable or trusted to be relied upon. There is then a devout need for the sanctum of religion, as stringent disciplines produce a highly substantive grade of human’s beings. The more society has shed its morals and principles, it would appear happiness, peace of mind and freedom has lessened in direct correlation.

May lessons to be learnt for modernist. It was heartbreaking to find tilaq exists in many household in Punjab. Let us awaken from this slumber, and rise to the challenges and overcome these misleading neon lights of promise and make concerted attempts to remain faithful to traditional values. The societal structure stands upon the family, when the family is destroyed the foundation is shaken dislodging long standing institutions with it.

What you are talking about family value? I have witnessed numerous times the people who bowed to this illusion suffered at the hands of their own members of family, I have witnessed people slicing own blood in the name of wealth and property, I have seen big ego mercilessly slaughtering the souls in the name of family. One needs to be first religious than to be an advocate of family values. Morality and ethics, regardless from where they are planted in, are worth paying attention. Relationship has no bearing without true love; it is very vital factor in context of marriage too. Maya controlled society lives for its ego, mind it, not for justice or fairness. Slumber of ego and illusions is more dangerous to destroy the soul than any thing else. Forgive me, experience shows that all said about family is not always certainly true.

 

[Archived_Member4]

I am born in Serbia but have indian roots , grow up with god in a very human and faithfull serbian orthodox family (my parents wish was to get back to our Sikh roots i am on the way to realize that ) My ex-husband was serb.orthodox too . A marriage works only with patience and BIG understanding for eachother ,religion does not play a big role. Religions are just different ways to achieve the same destination.Which role does it play which way we go if at the end we all reach to the same destination ?:yes:

When a person doesn't practice religion then its obvious it don't play a big role. For a Sikh to marry into another religion like Hinduism or Islam then it's even a bigger deal because you got Bhagat Kabeer ji saying I am not a Hindu or Muslim. For a saint to speak out againtst these religions there must be something wrong with these religions. Maybe there's too many dead ends or the map to the destination has been distorted, it could be just one or both.

 

[Archived_Member5]

What you are talking about family value? I have witnessed numerous times the people who bowed to this illusion suffered at the hands of their own members of family,

PK70 , you cannot tarnish with the brush of your bad experiences the family per se. A family is a united and peaceful as the wisdom of the elders presiding and guiding it, and the respect the family accord them. I cannot comments on your family but I know of strong close knit families, pillars of support for their own and the surrounding neighbours who were destroyed by the inclusion of one single bad person. The honour and reputation of such a respected clan falls for the tolerance of one vile reptiles exploiting the good naturedness of such loving family’s. Take the example of the British royal family. Queen Elizabeth carried the honour of her creed and country for near half a century and was a source of pride for this nation. She is a figure head but has behaved in that role commendably in stark contrats to her descendents. The inclusion of her daughters in law, Diana, Fergie, Sophie and the present Camilla have brought little but disgrace upon the family’s good name and the institution of monarchy. How can you blame the naive Queen for the wanton cavorting of the outsiders into her family so blatantly lacking in any propriety or decency deluded by the attentions of a media that destroyed all by the same token and measure in the end. Women are the backbones of their brethrens. Is it not completely foolish to condemn the family structure rather than advising poersons to choose their potential son and daughters-in- law wisely with erudition. Good strong women lead respectable strong families, the inclusion of mneddling and ignorant persons have destroyed many a clan. You cannot destroy the Family in judging it by the actions of its destroyers. That is unsound, unwise and completely false. We are ambassadors of our race, religion, gender and creed, by our actions our faith stands and falls. Existentialism is personal responsibility with a moral conscientiousness of one’s role within a larger operation. Women are undeniably the root cause of all evil. Peace and wisdom is the cure.

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,
well it is generally said that Sikhs don't believe in caste system but it is true only to some extent in older days Gurudwaras were not caste ridden but the situation is changing and what to talk about inter-caste marriages in Sikhism even if you c any of the matrimonial you will find words that will make you feel ashamed like
amratdhari jatt/khatri/kamboj Sikh girl looking for a guy.............and so on this is actually disgusting when you are amratdhari do u need to add your caste after it ?This goes out of my understanding:inca:

 

[Archived_Member5]

The caste system exists in many albeit subtle forms in all stratospheres of the world societies, no matter where you roam. Humans have tendency to organise themselves whether in rainforest tribes or urban metropolises. In each society there is a chief commander, a rank of thinkers and philosophers in governance, professionals, corporate managers, skilled tradesman and menial staff. These ranks and files tend to assume an indigenous quality and characteristic individual to their league. Land owning farmers, or skilled accountants and magistrates, they all are assigned a role and societal position on the great world stage and each fulfil their roles to the best of their ability.

The social disciplines placed upon such societies breed a stronger and fitter race, it is observed and noted. Shaadi.com indeed has many users who stipulate a certain generic preference for their future spouses, as their family and forebears have ordained. Matrimonial are used by many with great success for those seeking a marriage partner having no resources to hand. It is preferable to auctioning on ebay, although only just, is it not ... ?

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,

The caste system exists in many albeit subtle forms in all stratospheres of the world societies, no matter where you roam. Humans have tendency to organise themselves whether in rainforest tribes or urban metropolises. In each society there is a chief commander, a rank of thinkers and philosophers in governance, professionals, corporate managers, skilled tradesman and menial staff. These ranks and files tend to assume an indigenous quality and characteristic individual to their league. Land owning farmers, or skilled accountants and magistrates, they all are assigned a role and societal position on the great world stage and each fulfil their roles to the best of their ability.

although we were discussing caste system with relation to marriages and special inter-caste but your post has forced me to write a few lines on the caste system.
you assumption that the caste system is division of society on the basis of our work preferences and our intellect is not new to me i generally come across my Hindu friends who argue and present the same thing before me.what i question you is that why do you feel so as a Sikh? don't you remember that our father rejected the janeu(sacred thread) when he came to know that it will give him a higher status in society and that it will divide him from other beings.and all this at the age of 9 yrs.now answer me why is there a need to divide society and specially when this division becomes hereditary and the feeling of inferiority and superiority occurs in some human minds? we should not work to divide society but unite it.we are all created by one lord.

The social disciplines placed upon such societies breed a stronger and fitter race, it is observed and noted. Shaadi.com indeed has many users who stipulate a certain generic preference for their future spouses, as their family and forebears have ordained. Matrimonial are used by many with great success for those seeking a marriage partner having no resources to hand. It is preferable to auctioning on ebay, although only just, is it not ... ?

I'm not questioning someones eagerness to marry a good guy or girl. I'm considering a special case with amratdhari Sikhs not looking for amratdhari spouses in whole of the Sikh community but only in their caste .this is disgraceful for me as a Sikh.

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~

 

[Archived_Member5]

Sainty Ji you again have missed my point, maybe I have failed to communicate it appropriately. Man was not created equal. Societal divisions of class or caste do not denote inferiority or superiority. Whilst society functions as is there are distinctions of profession and class. I have firmly iterated before that the only distinction between mankind should be of honour and integrity. There are exemplary persons who have mastery in their own households whilst asserting authority and counselling their community peers. At a time some are barely able to run their own household without occasion of upheaval and sibling rivalries. Therein is created a distinction in men. Some assume the great responsibility of many, whilst others are barely able to govern in their own homes, or coerce their own brethren. Until this disparity is resolved, it is highly unlikely that we are able to create such an egalitarian society of no divisions at all.

Each Sikh caste has its own unique quintessential idiosyncrasies. They are differences I would not in any way deign to consider you or myself as inferior as or better than one another. To do so would not only be improper but falsified quite easily. But there are differences. I was raised in a London community where all walks of people lived happily together respecting each other’s special cultures and traditions. If an Amritdhari seeks to marry another of his own caste then what is it to anyone, it is his personal choice, you cannot force unity, or equality for eh sake of equality, you would arrive at the same problem. I could not compare a saintly, God imbued Amritdhari with a street boy Jat, the distinction would define the Godly and honourable as the highest creed and it should be so.

 

[pk70]

What you are talking about family value? I have witnessed numerous times the people who bowed to this illusion suffered at the hands of their own members of family...pk70

PK70 , you cannot tarnish with the brush of your bad experiences the family per se. A family is a united and peaceful as the wisdom of the elders presiding and guiding it, and the respect the family accord them. I cannot comments on your family but I know of strong close knit families, pillars of support for their own and the surrounding neighbours who were destroyed by the inclusion of one single bad person[/FONT]

Jeetijohal ji,[/FONT]
I have not expressed about my family but whatever I witnessed like people being suffered at the hands of the members of their own family in the name of honor you mention most of the time(forgetting this thing has motivated people towards honor killing”. The families you see do not represent the total society in which souls are sacrificed for ego, ego of status, , false honor, caste, religion(especially when the families themselves are not actual true religion practitioners). It is a “Ghar Ghar Ki Kahani”(story of every family) it is not a single example. I have never used the word “my” in my post; please so do not single me out.[/FONT]

The honour and reputation of such a respected clan falls for the tolerance of one vile reptiles exploiting the good naturedness of such loving family’s. Take the example of the British royal family. Queen Elizabeth carried the honour of her creed and country for near half a century and was a source of pride for this nation. She is a figure head but has behaved in that role commendably in stark contrats to her descendents. The inclusion of her daughters in law, Diana, Fergie, Sophie and the present Camilla have brought little but disgrace upon the family’s good name and the institution of monarchy. How can you blame the naive Queen for the wanton cavorting of the outsiders into her family so blatantly lacking in any propriety or decency deluded by the attentions of a media that destroyed all by the same token and measure in the end. Women are the backbones of their brethrens[/FONT]
You were not in the shoes of Princess Diana; you cannot express how deeply she had been mentally tortured till she decided to come out of the” Mask of illusion- Honor” What kind of honor you are supporting for this family? This is the family that ruled the world with treachery, dishonesty and many more inhuman tactics. Do these kinds of families deserve any kind of honor? Or simply you are asking people to bow to false masks. Most of the time a woman waits for the husband to display love, if she fails totally to have even a touch of it and then wants to get out of that false “family honor”, I would solute her for getting out of that chain that over centuries the man’s dominance designed to enslave her in the name of honor and faithfulness. It should be both ways where “honor bowing” brought hell in the lives of many persons.[/FONT]


. Is it not completely foolish to condemn the family structure rather than advising poersons to choose their potential son and daughters-in- law wisely with erudition. Good strong women lead respectable strong families, the inclusion of mneddling and ignorant persons have destroyed many a clan. You cannot destroy the Family in judging it by the actions of its destroyers. That is unsound, unwise and completely false.[/FONT]
Here is a simple example (don’t come with a response stating it is a single example and if you could get of that false illusion of respectable families).[/FONT]
A father of the bride disagreed to let her daughter marry a young man teaching in a local college just because he(father)was kind of area leader and the bridegroom was coming from a poor family (your respectable illusion or measure in context of respectable!) The father wants to marry her to another leader’s son without having a degree but having a lot of land and all smelly traditions attached to the family). The young man married the girl in the court and took her to [/FONT]Bombay[/FONT]. Still they live there happily without blessings etc of that respectable family. There is no end of such examples, In Hindu culture (also in many Sikhs) dowry weighs the girls. Sons of such respectable families bow to their parents in honor and respect (greed rooted). Bow Bow even if Hell is inevitable, that is their honor. We have come from jungle, we moved away from jungle like thinking, suppression cripples the souls, they live empty just to decorate the so called respectable. Life is between husband and wife; the rest should not dominate in their relationship. It doesn’t mean I am saying abandon them, just trying to say that souls should not be suppressed in the name of so called honor(false).[/FONT]


We are ambassadors of our race, religion, gender and creed, by our actions our faith stands and falls. Existentialism is personal responsibility with a moral conscientiousness of one’s role within a larger operation. Women are undeniably the root cause of all evil. Peace and wisdom is the cure.[/FONT]
In Punjab, combine- family structure has fallen apart because there was too much this honor and respect built on some ones own thinking that failed to cope up with the change of time. On this site, a young lady expressed her emotions how her own father became a wall to marry a young man (from the same religion) who loved her. Why? Your stated respect and honor of the family wouldn’t allow it because “the would be bridegroom” was not from her caste. Such dogmas are created by your so called respectable families. Where the line has to be drawn for the soul to have peace? Wisdom is a good word, it is used in various aspects, it depends how it is used.