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Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

Have You Married Out of Your Caste/Race/Tribe? Why or Why Not?

  • Yes

    Votes: 113 38.4%
  • No

    Votes: 181 61.6%

  • Total voters
    294

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
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You are horrendously wrong and gravely misguided. Love of Waheguru is first and foremost, and the earthly father second. What is this love you speak of, a girl who lusts for a young man, repudiates her father’s honour for lust and deserves to be condemned. And meted to the same disgrace she seeks to give to her family. The west has created your dream world, of anything goes, marry at will, divorce as easily, repent at leisure with as many as one can muster. Look at the so called emancipate and their racial inter marriages, are they happy, did they find honour and love, no they did not, in fact they are more lost and deluded than before and return to religion seeking to impose upon a sacred doctrine their own poisonous and selfish views. I vehemently disagree with you sometimes at cost to my own personal situation. I would not give up my faith, because it seems at this juncture God has given up on me. You are woefully wrong and any view you express is taken as your personal view, especially if it contradicts Bani. For my Waheguru, My Supreme Lord I would give my life, what happens to this sentiment when such girls in the heat of lust pursue, or succumb to their lechery and dare to call it love. What complete modernist hogwash.

I think of my forefathers and the future of my faith. I was born and raised in London, and although familiar with both western and eastern as most here are, the eastern culture produces strong, cultured races. The more they seek freedom of will and action, the greater they become embroiled in a web of deceit, hunger and need, in the eternal cycle of death and rebirth. Bani is not only for preaching but practicing. I am not orthodox. But have a genuine love of my faith than using to gain credence or to impress others. Teenage and young adults do not know what love is, for if they did they could not with any conviction spurn and dishonour their fathers for their boyfriends. In a dysfunctional family devoid of love a girl seeks escape, and these people are not to be discussed as the norm, to reflect badly upon an otherwise perfect faith.
 

pk70

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quote="jeetijohal, post: 90925"

You are horrendously wrong and gravely misguided.

That is your judgment; it necessarily doesn’t carry any bit of truth.

Love of Waheguru is first and foremost, and the earthly father second. What is this love you speak of, a girl who lusts for a young man, repudiates her father’s honour for lust and deserves to be condemned.

Why do you look at “love” as a lust only? You have obviously no inkling that in love lust doesn’t even exist


And meted to the same disgrace she seeks to give to her family. The west has created your dream world, of anything goes, marry at will, divorce as easily, repent at leisure with as many as one can muster. Look at the so called emancipate and their racial inter marriages, are they happy, did they find honour and love, no they did not,
in fact they are more lost and deluded than before and return to religion seeking to impose upon a sacred doctrine their own poisonous and selfish views.

Do not blame the west for every thing, love stories has been recorded since the History recorded. Why a girl or boy is deluded if he/she says no to the greed- Masked honor? Prove it. Are you suggesting dowry seekers should rule over the youngsters in the name of so called “honor and respect”?

I vehemently disagree with you sometimes at cost to my own personal situation. I would not give up my faith, because it seems at this juncture God has given up on me.

I never talked about your decision; it is a general talk in context of false dogmas through which souls are brutalized. Exceptions do not represent the society in quagmire of brutal dogmas. Before Sikhism, there used to be "satee(burn alive with dead husband) the so called honor of the family. That honor carrying illusions was shattered by Guru ji.

You are woefully wrong and any view you express is taken as your personal view, especially if it contradicts Bani.

Please do not support false honor with Bani, it infuses the souls to grow ethically and morally but never advocates false honor etc.


For my Waheguru, My Supreme Lord I would give my life, what happens to this sentiment when such girls in the heat of lust pursue, or succumb to their lechery and dare to call it love. What complete modernist hogwash.

Why do you think every girl in love is in lust? It is very strange that you just cannot go beyond this word lust.

I think of my forefathers and the future of my faith. I was born and raised in London, and although familiar with both western and eastern as most here are, the eastern culture produces strong, cultured races. The more they seek freedom of will and action, the greater they become embroiled in a web of deceit, hunger and need, in the eternal cycle of death and rebirth. Bani is not only for preaching but practicing. I am not orthodox. But have a genuine love of my faith than using to gain credence or to impress others.

Teaching of Gurbani doesn’t end only at how and where to get married, it elevates the soul to the highest level of ethics and morality, people abandon false honor and respect if Gurbani is lived, Gurbani literally condemns worldly honor. Just please do not mix up two things. Gurbani rejects dogma of caste but your so called honor and respectable dogma are well cemented in it.


Teenage and young adults do not know what love is, for if they did they could not with any conviction spurn and dishonour their fathers for their boyfriends. In a dysfunctional family devoid of love a girl seeks escape, and these people are not to be discussed as the norm, to reflect badly upon an otherwise perfect faith.


How you can say only teenagers fall in love? Falling in love is not what is dangerous but the other dogmas that ruin the whole land scope. I gave you examples of honor killings and dowry; you just ignore them as they do not fit in your honor and respectable fairy-illusions.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
PK70, you are a well intentioned bleeding heart, I have the utmost respect for your stance but stand firm in my convictions that Love should not enter into the equation of a girl pursuing marriage without her families blessing. Akin to the destruction of Christianity we should avoid sacrificing a spiritual enlightenment in favour of discussing the mating habits of juvenile youngsters.

Love is a scared state of spiritual asceticism. Many fall in love at breakfast, fall out at lunch, are divorced by tea time and remarried by evening. All of course in the name of Love. God is Love and Truth, these precious Spirits are defamed by weak and ignorant persons committing dishonourable acts in their name.

I am not cemented in any belief other than reason. Love is a gift of spirit only to those driven by reason, people love their pets and possessions, but you would not deign to call it love, mere infatuation and lust. Call it lust, but please refrain from calling something driven by emotional will to be in any way associated with the sacred spirit of Love, for it is not.

Ask what is that will motivating and driving people to ‘love’s someone, forsaking their family for such a ‘love’. If another were to show attention to them they will forget one love as easily as selling a car to purchase another. Let us not taint religion, a spiritual path with the personal ardour of such juvenile delinquents.

Respectfully ...
 

pk70

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Respectfully ...
PK70, you are a well intentioned bleeding heart,
You judge me and in the end of the post you write “respectfully” I have never enjoyed such hypocrisy.

I have the utmost respect for your stance
If you do, you wouldn’t judge me, so stop hypocritical show off.
but stand firm in my convictions that Love should not enter into the equation of a girl pursuing marriage without her families blessing.
Every one is entitled to have some conviction, It is doesn’t hurt others unless it is forced on others.
Akin to the destruction of Christianity we should avoid sacrificing a spiritual enlightenment in favor of discussing the mating habits of juvenile youngsters.
The problem is here about sticking love to juvenile affair only; it is itself a display of misunderstanding of “love” and unconsciously supporting those dogmas that killed many innocents’ souls. Kindly remember, it is not the discussions that enlighten but the complete understanding of Guru Message, so avoid it as long as we discuss what we are discussing.

Love is a scared state of spiritual asceticism. Many fall in love at breakfast, fall out at lunch, are divorced by tea time and remarried by evening.
Again you are expressing your personal views which fall short of the facts about LOVE, you have circled “Love” to label it as emotional out burst or whims of juvenile, in fact, and this also needs experience

All of course in the name of Love. God is Love and Truth, these precious Spirits are defamed by weak and ignorant persons committing dishonourable acts in their name.
Love of Lord Blossoms in those who give up love for Maya that also includes family honor. Who fell love with each other they can also walk on the pious love for Lord, only importance of the Lord dominates in their thinking in love. There remains no other bondage of false illusions society creates for its own ego.( Read what Third Nanak says about marriage)

I am not cemented in any belief other than reason. Love is a gift of spirit only to those driven by reason, people love their pets and possessions, but you would not deign to call it love, mere infatuation and lust. Call it lust, but please refrain from calling something driven by emotional will to be in any way associated with the sacred spirit of Love, for it is not.
Love is not limited in its meaning, infatuation is not love, it is attraction for any reason, love is a state of mind to be one with even being two if it happens between two souls without any other established relations of the society. Love is expressed in numerous ways but we were discussing it in context of marriage where I stated that without it marriage dies its own slow death. I do understand what lust means. Why would I be misguided by your sheer ignorance in context of love and lust? You are mixing up apple and oranges.

Ask what is that will motivating and driving people to ‘love’s someone, forsaking their family for such a ‘love’. If another were to show attention to them they will forget one love as easily as selling a car to purchase another
Obviously you are not separating love from infatuation and lust; now coming down to objective love (car etc), thanks it has put a smile on my face.

. Let us not taint religion, a spiritual path with the personal ardour of such juvenile delinquent
Again you cannot help yourself coming out of a determined mind set that defines love only for juvenile. It is just like going into circles without any hope of getting out of them.:)
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
I have yet to be called a hypocrite in any sense of the word. What happens then, PK JI, to the love of parents when such a person forsakes the home to pursue a dream, Do you know how many declarers of such a love, wrecked homes, destroyed lives, only to find with hindsight after the initial bloom of love had faded to regret bitterly losing their minds and breaking their homes for a ‘’love’’. You are a hypocritical and an easily proven one.

There are no modern day love stories for love is almost murdered. People become consumed with lust when finding someone interested in them, bore as quickly and are passed over for another. Ninety eight percent of divorced men, two years post the divorce regret their decision, for the new ‘’love’’ was not the promised Utopia it seemed but one degenerate enough to cold bloodedly destroy another life and standing to secure someone for their own agenda, there are few who cannot be purchased for a price, some for pennies, and fewer still who cannot be as easily seduced by another when testing their devotion, love has nothing to do with it, rather it is about power.

Your negative view of honour killings and families who value their good name above the personal agendas of others is misguided. Most people do not know what love, they crave success and affection, fame and fortune, the trappings of affluence and world forsake God for such things. Our Guru’s underwent great trials and murders for this faith. I would not put such sacrifice on a par with some besotted girl chasing a boy in heat with religion or Love, but wanton lust. It is lust, a need or craving giving no consideration to family honour, God or society. It stems from the weaker ranks of Sikhism.
 

pk70

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quote="jeetijohal, post: 90932"][/quote]\


I have yet to be called a hypocrite in any sense of the word. What happens then, PK JI, to the love of parents when such a person forsakes the home to pursue a dream, Do you know how many declarers of such a love, wrecked homes, destroyed lives, only to find with hindsight after the initial bloom of love had faded to regret bitterly losing their minds and breaking their homes for a ‘’love’’. You are a hypocritical and an easily proven one.

Do you know how many people suffered and are suffering just because for some reason they bowed to that “HONOR” you have been advocating? If that proves me hypocrite, still that is your judgment, I least pay attention what you call me. Who judge others so quickly display their own selves, nothing more than that.


There are no modern day love stories for love is almost murdered. People become consumed with lust when finding someone interested in them, bore as quickly and are passed over for another. Ninety eight percent of divorced men, two years post the divorce regret their decision, for the new ‘’love’’ was not the promised Utopia it seemed but one degenerate enough to cold bloodedly destroy another life and standing to secure someone for their own agenda, there are few who cannot be purchased for a price, some for pennies, and fewer still who cannot be as easily seduced by another when testing their devotion, love has nothing to do with it, rather it is about power.

Well this kind of data is available on other side too like in so called arranged marriages decorated with Honor bowing. In love dominating in power doesn’t exist, who really did, go and ask them, if they are not many it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. If love is tainted with other stuff, that is not the fault of love!


Your negative view of honour killings and families who value their good name above the personal agendas of others is misguided.

It is a fact, a fact doesn’t misguide, you must learn to accept facts instead of ignoring them.

Most people do not know what love, they crave success and affection, fame and fortune, the trappings of affluence and world forsake God for such things

All who love as it is in real sense do not fall into the category you are stating. If we accept your tainted views with false honor and respectable families, how could we ignore the ratio of their divorces, tragedies happened due to that honor? Only those fall in that category you stated who tainted the love or forcefully bowed to false illusion carried on centuries even against Guru Message. You couldn’t personally accept my contrary views and started jumping on judging me, what I can learn from your convictions? What is the use of such convictions? It says it all; ego covered with sweet language cannot be hidden. How it will treat a genuine love is obvious.

Our Guru’s underwent great trials and murders for this faith. I would not put such sacrifice on a par with some besotted girl chasing a boy in heat with religion or Love, but wanton lust. It is lust, a need or craving giving no consideration to family honour, God or society. It stems from the weaker ranks of Sikhism.


Guru ji didn’t preach honor feeding ego of some families with respectable labels. It was Guru ji who advocated to shed this fairy honor and become one community. Ego lovers made their caste their honor, ego lovers made their status a honor. I am not surprised to read your views because a complex of honor judges others quickly.
 

pk70

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SPN Sangat, I have found what have been looking for to support my stand in context of love and its importance in marriage.
What I have advocated is just an inspiration from Guru Teaching that supports the true love between husband and wife. If that is created or started with this in that relation, there is no chance of infidelity and any other illusion can affect the relationship; together they can proceed on spiritual path. Love has nothing to do with lust and other things that tarnish the soul. Here is Guru advice:
ਮਃ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ
3rd Guru. They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together[ As many do]. Rather they alone are called husband and wife, who have one soul in two bodies.[ only those can do this who are in love]
ਜੋ (ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸਰੀਰਕ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ) ਰਲ ਕੇ ਬਹਿਣ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਸਲ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਖਸਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਖੀਦਾ; ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਜਿਸਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਇੱਕੋ ਆਤਮਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਪਤੀ
This cannot happen without true love, it is just not possible, true love doesn’t blossom due to dowry, respectable family, caste or bowing to false honor, it should be naturally there within; and it elevates the soul to higher level where power, honor lose their meaning. If this Guru teaching is not practiced, we are just in denial and in self created misery in the name of many words that are empty. That is the love I have been expressing through my posts, to label it as lust, infatuation and juvenile affair is to be in denial of a fact well expressed by Guru Ji. Otherwise how will it can be one if other elements keep the disturbance going on? It is like uniting together for the purpose Guru infuses in us, it strengthens the possibility of ultimate love.
 
sat sri akal

i agree totally on what you said above pk 70. that is what i meant as well . English is not my native language and i try to write as easy as i can in hope that you guys understand me . I think somebody like me who has been merried 20y and who has done everything possible on earth to save own family , knows what i am talking about and what the word ,, true love '' means . i haven't been in interracial or any non-sense relationship like somebody has mentioned above . A marriage must work both sided , one sided nothing works . I know somany Sikhs (please don't misunderstand ) which even they follow strictly all Guru Nanak Ji preachings , they still felt in Illusions and into western world`s traps . Strongest family preassure can't always help to save a family if one has decided to go some other way for every price . A marriage works only if two true souls become one, that is my own experience. One can bear all mistakes from the other very long time and act like everything is allright . Just one day he wakes up and opens eyes and ask himself ,, for what ? for kids ? kids already are growen up no need more to bear any bad garbagge stuff from the other one . Family many times sees all but don't interfere in anything and if they do, often it's too late.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
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The mind, heart and soul must submit to the scriptural reason, truth, word of The Almighty Supreme Spirit. To submit religion to the whims and wiles of the misguided is to ******* and desecrate the pure and sacred power and path of religion.
 

lionprinceuk

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ok the thread it too long to read, but here are my views.

First all the Gurus married kshatriya women and using kshatriya traditions. I think it is wrong to tell people off for wanting to marry in their own caste only.

Also many people will then create boundaries between sikhs and non sikhs, as in being against marriage to non sikh but then preaching against people who follow their caste/tribal culture/traditions. I find this hypocritical way of thinking, applying sikhi and reasoning in one situation but not anohter, ie when it suits them.

OF course I will marry within my own tribe, I am not married yet, if anyone has a problem with my decision, then I will see what they will do about it! :D
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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ok the thread it too long to read, but here are my views.

First all the Gurus married kshatriya women and using kshatriya traditions. I think it is wrong to tell people off for wanting to marry in their own caste only.
Is there an evidence for this?

Also many people will then create boundaries between sikhs and non sikhs, as in being against marriage to non sikh but then preaching against people who follow their caste/tribal culture/traditions. I find this hypocritical way of thinking, applying sikhi and reasoning in one situation but not anohter, ie when it suits them.
:confused:

OF course I will marry within my own tribe, I am not married yet, if anyone has a problem with my decision, then I will see what they will do about it! :D
Why would you marry in your own tribe? For what reasons?
 

spnadmin

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Lion_Prince_Jatinder ji

Believe it or not -- for me, a person from a more western perspective, this topic and all the responses on the thread, are very interesting and educational. This is because a different culture and a different perspective on marriage and family are continually discussed. There is a lot for me to learn about the ways in which people from all over the world approach the subject.

A couple of questions. I myself do not understand why marriage within a "tribe" would be a high priority in modern times. Please do not think me rude-- but it seems that already, even with arranged marriages, there are a lot of Singhs who are having trouble finding any wife at all. So add more conditions, like the match of social and religious values, and getting married becomes an even bigger problem. The male to female ratio in Punjab is bad for men. Where are people going to find marriage partners if people add more conditions to the mix?

Isn't that why matrimonial services on line are a big business? It is getting harder and harder to find a life-partner. And getting married is more than just getting the job done and getting it over with.

Another thing perplexes me. Please forgive me. I know many people from India who live here in the states and they come from many religious backgrounds. It does not seem to me that the Indian residents of the US who are Hindu and Muslim are as concerned about matches within caste and tribe as Sikhs are. Why is that? I am talking about the age group of maybe 40 years old and younger. Even the Indian Muslims over here (in fact most Muslims Indian or not) do not worry so much about arranged marriages. Of course there is a lot of family investigation and all of that. Relatives do try to bring young people together. But many younger Hindus and Muslims actually find their partners here in the US and romantic attraction is one part of the equation.

I hope I have not offended anyone -- but part of me is very puzzled. :confused:
 

spnadmin

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One more thing -- Marriage is good for people. It is important to be married to someone to whom you will be devoted for a long, long time. Getting it right is not as simple as baking a cake from a list of ingredients. It is not that technical. Sometimes all the technical variables seem right at the beginning (looks, money, careers, religion, social class, etc.) and the result is a disaster -- for the couple and everyone around them.
 

kds1980

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A couple of questions. I myself do not understand why marriage within a "tribe" would be a high priority in modern times. Please do not think me rude

The answer of this question is very simple and it is society.In traditional and religious familes children especially girls are considered with good character if they accept arrange marriage.If a tribe of sikhs that marry their children in their own caste choose to marry one child out of caste then this immidiately become topic of gossip among relatives.many questions will be asked directly and indirectly by relatives Why this is happening.so for family's respect many sikh families marry children within their own caste
 

pk70

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The answer of this question is very simple and it is society.In traditional and religious familes children especially girls are considered with good character if they accept arrange marriage.If a tribe of sikhs that marry their children in their own caste choose to marry one child out of caste then this immidiately become topic of gossip among relatives.many questions will be asked directly and indirectly by relatives Why this is happening.so for family's respect many sikh families marry children within their own caste

Well said, fear factor works. Some want to move on, there are some others who wouldn't allow them to do.:(
 

lionprinceuk

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alright aad002 ji, I will try and talk about some of the matters that you have discussed, and there is no offense taken at all; :)

One thing to remember is that there are many more hindus and muslims than there are sikhs, so it would be more difficult to generalise them having the same view based on just some of them, as opposed to sikhs.

Secondly, there are also other questions to ask from my observations and from what I have been taught, like how traditional the families are, and then from that you could also find out how conservative and liberal they are, this is also influenced by background, including tribe/race/caste, where they come from (pind/city/country), and also how many generations they have lived out of india or even out of pind, and even if thery came from poverty/ghettos or from a stable background and good area.

Then you will see that the more traditional families will tend to marry in same
tribe/race/caste/nation/country/group, but even other people tend to at mostly marry in the same nation, or skin colour, or something else, like same panth, usually if it counts as a "major religion", or more usually to panthic/religious tribalism.

Since a marital ceremony is a tradition for many traditional peoples of the world to start a partnership, then not only do non/less-traditional people not really need to marry within the same group, they don;t really need to get married at all. As you see, in many places such as western countries, to have a partnership, marriage is not seen as important, as people do a thing called dating instead, where they can just easily be partners by being boyfriend and girlfriend, which starts without ceremony and without the need for family involvement like marriage has to start it.

Also you will see in the areas such as the pinds/villaged there are many differences in cultural values and traditions, and even the way language is spoken, between the different tribes present in the pinds.

And as well, Guru jis into married to kshatriya and by kshatriya tradition, as this was the cultural thing to do, and since Guru jis lived and were brought up in kshatriya families and values. Even the making of Khalsa fauj was very influenced by Guru Gobind Singh ji's Kshatriya/warrior heritage and was a revitalisation of this warrior kshatriya heritage of the indian society. And this is evident when Guru ji talks about his royal Suryavanshi kshatriya lineage in Bachittar Natak, I also believe there is mention of something in Bhai Gurdas ji diya vaaran.


Also, most people who go for the out of caste marriages are also the ones who fit into the more liberal category, such as ones doing the things like dating, as it is rare to to find inter-caste arranged marriage. The sikhi being taught is very khalsa warrior oriented these days, and so this helps sikhs in some aspects being dharmic and annakhi, and this would somehow influence more towards conservative attitudes, resulting in preference for arranged marriage and being against behaviour seen as liberal such as dating, women drinking and wearing obviously revealing clothes such as skirts and showing off a bit too much in other parts of the body. Tradititional indian families such as mine and some of my relatives and many others, see many religious or even amrit-dhari families and amrit-dhari singhs/singhnis behaving in these liberal ways, and see it as shocking, since to us it is taboo, but yet much more religious families are out of tocuh with their culture. In this case it can also be seen, that people have forgotten how to be dharmik, and instead try to be religious, since in west there is more religion than dharam. And it is very much possible, and I see it all the time, in the so-called "religious" people behaving in adharmik ways.

And as you said, romantic attraction has become a major point in finding a partner, and unfortunately it has taken too much improtance. That is another reason helping people marry out of caste/tribe/race. But this romacne thing is making people rush into things, and people aren't prepared to make the effort to make a partner, and instead just go for whatever pretty face that they have some chemistry with. For me personally, there is no real rush/reason to need to marry out of caste/tribe/race, but it might be different froms some people. For peopel who have become too liberal and out of touch witht heir tribal values, culture and traditions, then I would say that they might as well go ahead and marry whoever. But remember, this is more of a case of assimilation, and I personally believe in integration over assimilation. From our Gurus I have learnt to be against assimilation, such as islamic assimilation by the mughals, or assimilation by the British in their raaj.

But regardless, I am pretty much sure that guru jis would never have married out of kshatriya and I wouldn't see the need for them to either.

Religious/panthic tribalism
There is an unfortunate side to this, as the tribalism has increased from being limited to caste/tribe to encompassing a whole panth. Of course, describing a panth in the western context of faith/religion only adds to this tribalism; but that is not a discussion for this thread.
So you will see this tribalism seen even in the sikh rehat maryada created by the SGPC, where its mentioned that sikh can only marry sikh. So, you see, now people have started treating their panth as a caste, treating being sikh as a caste. This is how things have become, whereas before British influence in sikhi, there would have been absoultely no problem in sikhs and hindu marriage. So you see this "problem" has gone from being at a caste/race level to a panthic level.

Cases of marriages out of caste/tribes
So, there is cases where people even in India and pinds/villages have to marry out of caste. Such as punjabis bringing (or buying?) a woman from Bihar or Gujarat to marry. Also, there was a case I was reading, where Rajputs started marrying jatts, since many other rajputs had become muslims. I mean, there have been circumstances where it is acceptable. Maybe even this shortage of girls now in punjab could be a valid circumstance. I would happily believe that there was probably marriages between different tribes, or tribes and groups being created out of other groups.

And remember, it is tradition again, for the woman to become part of the tribe she marries into. This is evident, in the woman taking the clan name of her husband, which is easily seen even in the western countries.

Finally, some tribes do have enough similar cultural values and traditions for them to marry with each other, so you will see that in some castes/tribes/races marriage to another group is more acceptable and regular than others.
 

pk70

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But regardless, I am pretty much sure that Guru jis would never have married out of kshatriya and I wouldn't see the need for them to either.(quote lion -prince jatinder Ji)

I respect your opinion, please do not speculate on what Guru Ji couldn't have done. Basing on Bachittar Natak, please do not negate the purpose of Khalsa. Same Guru also says" Manas kee jaat sabh ek hee pehchanove(close to it). In a society deeply drowned in castye system, how a low class family could have dared to offer a daughter for the Guru bridegroom when so called Kashattryas were doing all the spoon feeding to marry off their daughters in Guru ghar? Ponder over it before concluding your judgment on Guru's marriages. Guru Sahiban were a way above this filth.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
The answer of this question is very simple and it is society.In traditional and religious familes children especially girls are considered with good character if they accept arrange marriage.If a tribe of sikhs that marry their children in their own caste choose to marry one child out of caste then this immidiately become topic of gossip among relatives.many questions will be asked directly and indirectly by relatives Why this is happening.so for family's respect many sikh families marry children within their own caste

kdsji

I do understand your point. But what I was really asking is why Sikhs, more than other religious groups, feel that this is necessary. :)
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
a

Cases of marriages out of caste/tribes
So, there is cases where people even in India and pinds/villages have to marry out of caste. Such as punjabis bringing (or buying?) a woman from Bihar or Gujarat to marry. Also, there was a case I was reading, where Rajputs started marrying jatts, since many other rajputs had become muslims. I mean, there have been circumstances where it is acceptable. Maybe even this shortage of girls now in punjab could be a valid circumstance. I would happily believe that there was probably marriages between different tribes, or tribes and groups being created out of other groups.

And remember, it is tradition again, for the woman to become part of the tribe she marries into. This is evident, in the woman taking the clan name of her husband, which is easily seen even in the western countries.

Lion_Prince_Jatinder ji

More or less, these are the views that I have been reading on this thread and on other threads since joining SPN. As I asked kds ji -- why is this more of an issue for Sikhs? That is a basic question for me.

Or is the true story much different? We are looking at a very small percentage of all Sikhs in disapora and in India if and when we only consider the opinions expressed on the forum and the opinions expressed by people we know.

People tend to associate with people who are like themselves. This can lead to assumptions that are not true about the broader reality. And I am wondering if the picture that is emerging here is accurate.

Thanks :)
 

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