Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Lee]

This is a sad tale Amrit ji.

You ask what can we really do about it?

We are not here to live a life filled with sadness and struggle (Unless of course that is what God wills for us) and you really do have the right to be happy as you live.

Personaly my friend I would have simply ignored the wishes of both sets of parents. I asked a while back, and I guess I'll ask it agian now.

I can understand respect for the parents, and I can understand takeing note of the parents wishes in the living of your own life, but at what stage of life (or how old if you like) do you start to live for your self?

Also it may seem admirable to look at life and see how your choices may effect others, indeed I have said before that we should all do this, yet you simply cannot hold yourself responisble for the hurt that others may feel by your lifes choices. In essance by doing that you attempt to remove the choices of others. The biggest moral no no in my book.

 

[amrit.saggu]

Thank you for your comments, they are appreciated. This is also what most everybody i know has told me...

 

[Randip Singh]

5 days I broke up with my humble & truthful persian girlfriend of 2 years. We loved each other dearly and shared many values. She was respectful and open to Sikh beliefs and told me she would be more than content raising children with Sikh values. Unfortunately her mother was not supportive of our relationship with the fear of cultural differences playing a destructive factor in the long term. She blatantly stated that she trusts in her daughters choice in a partner but fears the Sikh community because of our reputation. Instead of putting up my defenses, I decided to try to perceive through her shoes and began to realize what her fears were. I tried to explain to her that we are all children of the universe and that Sikhism is preaches equality amongst all beings. She called me naive. We gave it some time and tried to let it sink, but her mother would not be open to the idea of trying to get to know me. When I introduced my girlfriend to my parents, they were open to meet her with the expected reservations. My father advised me against marrying her since our relationship did not have the support of her parents. My only choice was to leave her. I did not want to carry the burden of the straining relationship between her and her mother. Basically, I gave up. Reason being; I began to realize that our purpose for being human is not to get deeply involved in worldly attachments, but to be selfless and compassionate beings on our journey back to the Divine Waheguru. So in this case, I simply counted the number of people I would hurt if I decided to continue with this relationship, and subtracted it by the number of people who would benefit. The truth will always remain the truth, all beings are but one, But in the case where someones perspective is just not cool with that- what can you really do about it?

Amrit
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This is indeed sad and I must say I admire your maturity in looking at the bigger picture.

For me the situation was we were both Sikh, just a different caste. Despite objections initially, now our respective families have a mutual love and respect. They do however, a commom cultural connection, so it is easier. I can see how it would have been mre difficult for you.

 

[Rajvia Kaur]

My parents come from a line of orthadox sikhs, but still there would be an issue if i married out of my own caste.
i asked my parents why this is, they replied its because some caste believe in certain parts of the GGSJ, some dont believe that the dhasam grant is genuine, some believe Guru Ravidas was a Guru and some dont. Some eat meat, some dont. there are religious differences in castes, that could cause problems when in a marriage.

 

[Randip Singh]

My parents come from a line of orthadox sikhs, but still there would be an issue if i married out of my own caste.
i asked my parents why this is, they replied its because some caste believe in certain parts of the GGSJ, some dont believe that the dhasam grant is genuine, some believe Guru Ravidas was a Guru and some dont. Some eat meat, some dont. there are religious differences in castes, that could cause problems when in a marriage.

I think most of these issues are sect issues than caste issues eg those that beleieve in Guru Ravidas are Ravidasia rather than Ravidasia Sikh.

 

[amrit.saggu]

My parents come from a line of orthadox sikhs, but still there would be an issue if i married out of my own caste.
i asked my parents why this is, they replied its because some caste believe in certain parts of the GGSJ, some dont believe that the dhasam grant is genuine, some believe Guru Ravidas was a Guru and some dont. Some eat meat, some dont. there are religious differences in castes, that could cause problems when in a marriage.

Rajvia Kaur,

You know what I think...no matter what parts of GGSJ people read or believe in, all Gurbani professes the detrimental outcome of the belief in a caste system. Any system that segregates man from his fellow men, is a system that draws lines of inequality at some level. We can't expect this to change; man has been like this since Dwapur (since the ego/duality was introduced) by the divine, however, we can always change ourselves if we have the will to. Gods beloved is one who treats the world with compassion and views all as equal. God does not recognize us by our castes/race/social positions...but by our love, deeds and dedication. "If we recognize hukam, we will recognize that all are one"- Bhagat Kabir.

A Sikh has no caste. God bless.

WJKK WJKF
Amrit

 

[Bmandur]

First off all tell me What is CAST
WHo created the Cast
WHy most of ourGurudwara's are manage by 80% one Cast that is Jatt
There are other Gurudwara's under different cast name
But have we ever thought Why they are under different names
Did we ever go and ask them why this Gurudwara is under Different cast name
First we have to look our self than we can ask a question on Cast
Read this. The Gurmat Crash course was done by
Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle in Toronto. Ontario

We will all be Singhs and Kaurs! | SikhNet

 

[Bmandur]

Amrit Saggu,

You did the right thing. I respect you for that what you did was not easy but you did it.

Thank you for your decesion

Gurfateh
:happy:

 

[amrit.saggu]

Amrit Saggu,

You did the right thing. I respect you for that what you did was not easy but you did it.

Thank you for your decesion

Gurfateh
:happy:

Thank you for your support my friend. Dhan Sikhi.

Amrit

 

[Bmandur]

Amrit Saggu,
Any time. DO not thank me. We should be thankfull to our Guru Gobind Singh Ji
I have very bad experince from these kind of behavier people and I do let others to be aware from them so any time you need to knwo any thing do not hesitate to ask
We will be here for everyone If Guru ji has there hand on our shoulder and Head

Gurfateh
Binder:happykaur:

 

[bsc1]

Our guruji encouraged non caste system way of life for good reasons:
1: If you banish the caste system you encourage more to your religion this increase in numbers results in more powerful religious movement.
2:You differentiate your belief from the hindu belief.Unfortunately the Sikh people have adopted so much of the hindu culture / rituals because we had a common enemy,the muslims.
The caste system was set up for a very good reason by the brahims ,it was a way of bringing order to everyday life....but as with all clever ideas people abused the system for thier own gains.The brahims will NEVER allow the caste system to fade from life in India.

Some of the "lower" castes have been downtrodden for so long they have adopted Sikhism and changed bits to suit thier own needs.Once upon a time Punjabi music would sing about the Sikh Jatts ,recently a popular Punjabi artist sang about how the "lower" caste would rise above everyone (Miss Pooja) this has caused a bit of a stir with alot of Jatts in the UK/USA/Canada...and Punjab.

Now to the question would I encourage my daughters to marry out my caste (Sikh Jatt).....NO...is the simple answer...am I the racist..NO... ,but this is the way it's been for so long.Those that wish to preach should lead by example..walk the walk don't just talk.

Finally I have used the word "lower caste" as a quote, I do not believe any human a lesser person.I do not wish to offend anyone of any faith or caste.God bless.

 

[Lee]

Now to the question would I encourage my daughters to marry out my caste (Sikh Jatt).....NO...is the simple answer...am I the racist..NO... ,but this is the way it's been for so long.Those that wish to preach should lead by example..walk the walk don't just talk.

Strange that one BSC1 ji,

We had over here in the UK a similar mindset back in the late 70's early 80's regarding mixed marriages. 'Because that is the way it has always been' or the everso insiduose 'what will the neigbours think'

Lucky for us though it was my own genration that provided the way out of this mindset, by utterly rejecting these ideas of our parents generation.

Change my friend is inevitable and unstopperbal, you can choose to be a part of it, and thus make the world a better fairer place, or carry on with the same old mindset of your forbares. Of course that way we get stuck, change comes about slowly the world keeps turning, and evil thoughts maintain their grip for longer on the human beast. Your choice my freind.

 

[jasbirkaleka]

What evil thoughts are you talking about Lee? There can be many valid reasons and compelling circumstances which make people marry into their own caste.Even the Sikh Gurus married in their own caste.And you do'nt have to marry out of your own caste just to prove a point.Such marriages do not last long.There has to be some common sharing in their back-ground,their childhood environment, their up-bring,their thought-process and a pride in their shared heritage, to have a long-lasting relationship, which is without any hang-ups and complexes.Change just for the sake of change is not such a big thing.

 

[Lee]

What evil thoughts are you talking about Lee? There can be many valid reasons and compelling circumstances which make people marry into their own caste.Even the Sikh Gurus married in their own caste.And you do'nt have to marry out of your own caste just to prove a point.Such marriages do not last long.There has to be some common sharing in their back-ground,their childhood environment, their up-bring,their thought-process and a pride in their shared heritage, to have a long-lasting relationship, which is without any hang-ups and complexes.Change just for the sake of change is not such a big thing.

In the conext of this discussion Jasbirkaleka ji any thought that seeks to further divide and split humanity is anti Gurmat. This is the evil thought that I refer to.

I dismiss you other comments as being false I'm afraid my freind.

My wife and I do not share a faith in common, nor was our upbringing similar an any way, we are both native to the South of London though so we do share some ideolgy.
In my own personal realtionships with my wife of 20 years it is exactly the differances between us that keeps things fresh and exciting, we never run out of things to talk about, we can discuss the things we don't see eye to eye on.

As to any relationship without hangups and problems, well it just does not happen. We need to work on a relationship for it to become sucessfull, that is not just I that is all of us.

Change for changes sake, yes I agree yet this is not what I talk about. We can perhaps thank our parents generation for it, but ever since the invention of the teenager way back in the 50's, our youth no longer automaticaly settle for the beliefe systems of their parents. I say this is a good thing, why should they belive as we do (on all sorts of things) without attempting to garner for them selves an opinion?

The world is presently changing at an alarminf rate and it is traditional for us oldies to fear this, indeed I do too, for some aspects. However whether we fear change or not, it does not matter. We adults have made the world as we have, our time is now, the future belongs to our kids and their kids after them. In short then change is inevitable, some of it is for the good and some for the bad, and some well we just won't know until years later. There is no stopping it thoughmy freind, and as good change goes, inter racetial, inter caste, inter religous relationships, well I see nothing to fear about any of that. I welcome it as a nessicary step to stop once and for all anything that serves to further seperate and divide humanity.

God is one, and we are one. There is a truth there, if we ignore our pettyness and open our eyes to see it.

 

[Randip Singh]

What evil thoughts are you talking about Lee? There can be many valid reasons and compelling circumstances which make people marry into their own caste.Even the Sikh Gurus married in their own caste.And you do'nt have to marry out of your own caste just to prove a point.Such marriages do not last long.There has to be some common sharing in their back-ground,their childhood environment, their up-bring,their thought-process and a pride in their shared heritage, to have a long-lasting relationship, which is without any hang-ups and complexes.Change just for the sake of change is not such a big thing.

Jasbir ji:

• I am married out of caste and have been with my wife for 15 years
• My brother has been married out of caste and been with his wife for 10 years
• My Aunt is married out of caste and has been with her husband for 15 years
• My Uncle, married out of caste and has been with his wife for 20 years

Contrast this with:

• My wifes cousin married in caste and divorced after 5 years
• Wifes sister married twice in caste and divorced twice
• My cousin married in caste and separated after 3 years.

Your example of the Guru’s is not a good one, and I will tell you why.

Do you think if a Jatt, Saini, or Tarkhan would have offered their daughter in marriage the Guru’s would have refused?

How could they have met a woman from a different caste? We are talking about a time when people just about sat together from differing castes to eat, so a “Sudra” caste offering their daughter to a “Kshatriya” would have been the last thing on their minds.

Just as a climber must stop and camp at a mountain at stages to acclimatise, so the Guru’s took our Sikh’s one step up at a time. Inter-caste marriage back then would have been a step to far. Today in the 21st Century caste is just ridiculous. It makes no sense.

SAYING THIS, No one should be forced to marry out of caste, and no one should be forced to marry in.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

In Sikhi, if we cling to the little twigs of our own caste system on the mountain side while climbing this Sikhi mountain, then we are bound to and must fall because the idea of Langar started by Guru Nanak was to break the bread with anyone of any caste, religion or creed. This is the uniqueness and the real wonder! of Sikhi.

Sticking to the caste system now leads to one refusing to embrace the evolution of the Sikhi marg given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru, but rather Talibanising it.

Many of my family members including myself are very happily married out of caste and there has not been a single divorce in our family. Same is the case with our other relatives and we have a very large family.

Tejwant Singh

 

[jasbirkaleka]

Thanks Randip Singh ji and Lee for the quick response. but experiences around me have been quite the opposite and I can give you many examples.Maybe it is because of part of Punjab live in.

 

[Randip Singh]

Thanks Randip Singh ji and Lee for the quick response. but experiences around me have been quite the opposite and I can give you many examples.Maybe it is because of part of Punjab live in.

Jasbir ji, I know exactly where you are coming from.

I am from the UK, but I know from my experience in the cities in India the Sikh community does not pay much attention to caste. They are just happy Sikh are marrying Sikhs.

In the instances I have quoted the caste backgrounds and need for preservation of the caste linegage and history has been replaced with a greater ideal. That of a common shared history of Sikhi.

Also I can understand fully why caste was needed. Can imagine a Jatt woman in the old days marrying say a Kumaar. What would the Jatt woman know about Pottery. Caste was a necessity then. Today it is not.

We must replace our caste ideals and reinforce them with ideas of Sikhi.... the reason for this is clear to be seen. Dera's, Sants, Caste based Gurudwaras are becoming the norm and Sikhi will disintergrate.

 

[jasbirkaleka]

:happysinghear Randip Singh Ji. I have the greatest hatred for Deras,so called Sants, and Caste-based Gurudwaras, as you must have read in my posts And I am a rationalist to the extend possible,if not outright an atheist. But I think it will take me some time to accept the idea of marrying into another caste,thou I have no hatred against any caste.It is not a question of a higher or a lower caste as I am a Jat Sikh and a Vaishya , if we go by Hindu caste-system.
Amalgamation is not such a big thing.Diversity too has its own beauty.Same as differant languages and dialects have their own fragrance, charm and mystery.:hmm:

 

[Randip Singh]

:happysinghear Randip Singh Ji. I have the greatest hatred for Deras,so called Sants, and Caste-based Gurudwaras, as you must have read in my posts And I am a rationalist to the extend possible,if not outright an atheist. But I think it will take me some time to accept the idea of marrying into another caste,thou I have no hatred against any caste.It is not a question of a higher or a lower caste as I am a Jat Sikh and a Vaishya , if we go by Hindu caste-system.
Amalgamation is not such a big thing.Diversity too has its own beauty.Same as differant languages and dialects have their own charm.:hmm:

If we go by the Hindu caste system, the Jatts were seen Sakas and fallen Kshatriya's condemed to be Sudra's (if you read Manu Smirti thats what it says).

In village life you have a weird set up, where a Jatt see's himself as the highest because he owns the land. A Brahman, who is landless is looked down upon by the Jatt, yet the Bahman calls the Jatt a Sudra. You have the Khatri who see's himself as Kshatriya, yet is seen by others as a Bania. The Bania is despised by the Jatt. The Tarkhan works alongside the Jatt and of equal staus but is seen as lower by the Jatt, and the Tarkhan looks down upon the Jatt because he see's himself as a descendent of Vishwakarma the creator, and so it goes on and on and on and on.

I can't see how this has a place in our modern society.

In order to save Sikhi, and the message of our Great Guru's we must let go of these things and learn to respect one another.

On culture and diversity I think people have a bigger loyalty to area and village. For example, the Misl leaders had one thing in common. They were all Majhails.