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Hemkunt-Sikhs Chasing Shadows Of Brahmanwaad!

Harry Haller

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It took 240 odd years to compile the information in the SGGS. Reading and understanding and living it is what it is to be a Sikh.

Suggestions that any such enlightened person could gain any further knowledge from the DG cannot be taken with conviction.

It serves only to confuse and distract. One cannot serve two masters.Even if the tenth Master did contribute, it are his contributions to the SGGS that are audited and confirmed as being 100% Bani.
 

Chaan Pardesi

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Above are some of the writing from charitro pahkyian...doing the same..having agreed that these are stories he then asks that no one should beleive such without any evidence of his own.


"Further, am a very common Sikh & one thing is sure that i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & atleast am nvr gonna show my back to my father .... like so called Kala Afghana, Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa & their followers doing these days ..."<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Itsmaneet Ji, You have not given any iota of evidence that it is indeed wholly writen by what you call "your father".Is that why you hoping that others will follow you and beleive the same?

You have been on about charitro pakhian and its contents;perhaps you find it interesting and may also read it in the presence of your daughters, parents and females; like one can comfortably read the Gurbani of Guru Granth sahib.

Will you?Also can you tell me with precise evidence to who exactly wrote these charitr pakhiyaan.We have all heard the allegations abt the author...but it certainly is NOT Guru Gobind Singh ji.So how does that make your pita's writings?

While there is an abundance of evidence and even the scholars of the panth have factually established and agreed that NOT the whole dasam granth is of Guru Gobind Singh's bani, here is YOU that comes along and claims "i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & at least am nvr gonna show my back to my father"

But all that without offering any shred of evidence!!NOt a single iota of reference has been provided by to say this why you believe so.

To me you very much sound like those paracharaks who invent mythological stories as they go along and make it sound interesting>And it is Thanks to such story telling that there is so much confusion amongst Sikhs over these tales that are in the dasam granth!

And you expect me to believe you , just because you say so?

Let me tell you it is such story tellers who had been listening to Prof Darshan Singh Ji ,Kala afghana etc Singh,for years without quiblling... etc ; and then suddenly over night these same people[darshan singh etc] are accused of being anti panth; with the story tellers telling crooked stories turned them into so called demons.But people out there are not so foolish to believe such crooked stories.It is very apparent a bunch of fools do not want people who can rationalise to compete with their nonsense.


There is a saying if one tells lies long enough,one will start beleiving their own lies.I see that all the time with forensic mentally deranged and delusional crooks or people with personality disorders.So much so, they loose track of the reallity they have told along the line.

It is on record that the dasam granth has been diluted.For your information only yesterday I was at the British National Library [after going through the Olympic village] and went through the dasam granth for about 4 hours
Notes made by previous scholars who have researched it from 1901 all say it has been diluted.More than often even the authors of such stories in the DG are unknown.Period.

Scholars likeBhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Giani Lal singh [all had their vidya from snatan brahman orientated system]etc are of the opinion that there is certainly dilution and not the whole of dg is of Guru Gobind Singh ji.I have researched on it and in my article I have clearly stated the contents that relates to Gurbani is only 7% and no more.The rest totally contradicts the values and priciples of the Gurus and their teachings.

It is another story that the sadh sant snatan lobby being strong enough managed to get the issue shelved.But there is NO disagreement in the Panth that the whole dasam granth is not wholly the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and here you come along without any evidnce declare

"i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & at least am nvr gonna show my back to my father"

I find that quite amusing as an unacademic claim, and nothing more than the sadh that waffles off tales that nobody else has often heard about!

For your information, I have read the dasam granth 12 times, 7 in Punjabi and five in English.

Farsi is a language that I have learnt to speak, reasonably too along with others.There is no rockets science about braj bhasha, current day bhojpuri is near enough!

There is absolutely nothing wrong in reading any amount of literature, but what the problem is when attempts are made to declare it Guru --like it has been done in the recent past where the word Guru has been printed upon it by vested interests who wish to dilute the heritage and identity of the sikhs.Because dasam granth contains more grandmother tales and hindu kaam shashtra and vidya like to how to over come or increase sexual prowess, powers have realised it is easy to mislead the sikhs.The sadh lobby too recognises that as long they keep sikhs are interested in the tales, their own KURSI is safe;....in fact the non discussion order by the panth has created an atmosphere that encourages this negative on going controversy...as the lsser people know the truth, the easier for them to continue their stories and claims and keep people memerised.
The DG is not comparable to the Guru Granth sahib;neither is it the guardian of MIRI or whatever as opposed to Guru Granth sahib.
 

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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Some sikhs dont even realise what they are saying.."by accepting a whole lot of trash and putting it at Guru Jis Doorsteps" is by itself TURNING ONES BACK ON our father Pita Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji....sad case of being in DENIAL.

JAPJI SAHIB is mandatory even for a child of about three years of age..he/she cna learn so much from reciting and understanding Japji Sahib on a daily basis..then Rehrass..Sohila Shabads..and each Tuk of SGGS as we age and become wiser older...SGGS can be read loudly and openly in Families even 3 or four generations deep gret grandparents, grand parents, parents, children grand children great grand children all seated together..becasue there is ample knowledge and spiritual food for EVERYONE of any age. What "coming of age" are the proponents of DG proposing charitars can be read ?..which woman can read these tales of debauchery and subterfuge and degradation of WOMAN when SGGS puts Woman on such a high pedestal ? Which couple singh and singhannee can sit together with their family and read these tales together ?? Its a s clear as day that there is NO AGE at which such trash is acceptable...and in no situation or moment of time, spiritual development etc is it OK.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Further people keep on giving examples of how the Internet has both good and bad points..knowledge etc..YES..Internet has BOTH Good and BAD..we all know Internet PORN is bad..and all we are saying is DG Charitars is PORN and therefore BAD, Same argument.Keep what is good and throw out the bad..its wise.The present dg has already been REVISED CORRECTED by a so called Sodhak Comittee composed of ordinary sikhs ( not scholars or academicians but run off the mill sikhs like clerks shopkeepers etc ) out of nearly 32 dg birs of different sizes, compositional character etc to bring about uniformity..so it stands to reason that with the MODERN SCHOLARS, vast internet resources etc available it should be an easy task to take out the chaff and keep the seeds...BUT theres got to be WILL - POLITICAL WILL.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Which historical figure reached Shaheedi on reading Charitropakhyan? Everyone talks about Dasam Bani and the Bir ras in it, no one talks about Charitropakhyan. You can add tale of Robin Hood to Dasam Granth and still there will be no historical figure who will be inspired by it. Dasam Granth was compiled by Bhai Mani Singh years after Guru Gobind Singh died. And it has changed over the years. So every Bani from there has to be taken with a grain of salt. It should have approval of Guru Granth Sahib!
 

Chaan Pardesi

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uniformity..so it stands to reason that with the MODERN SCHOLARS, vast internet resources etc available it should be an easy task to take out the chaff and keep the seeds...BUT theres got to be WILL - POLITICAL WILL.

This is why the issue should be discussed and exposed into the open so that all sikhs become aware and force the political slaves at the Akal takhat to take a stand and trash rubbish and confirm the bani of Guru Gobind singh ji.Shelving an issue does not make it go away.

The problem is the big vote banks the saddh lobby carries number for the so called sikh national party=SAD through to SGPC to make decisive decisions...instead it has concntrated on ostracisng individuals for no good reason ..while it ignores it's utmost responsibilty... enssuring the Gurbani and Gur granth are kept secured and that the sikhs are also not fed the trash that is in Dasam granth.

It is like the issue recently at discussion in malaysia where an individual claimed they have and are bringing in fresh parcharaks...question was why the manmat that goes on...

Parcharaks have been coimming for years anyway.By bringing in fresh parcharaks the issue is not going to be solved .They do not have a magic wand.The parcharaks that are comming are those same parcharaks who have failed badly to convince 90% of the sikh youth of the Punjab to keep their sikh identity, and now according to this chap they will somhow magically solve the issue or resolve the identity issue in Malaysia!

If any one belie ves that futile barmy balorney,... then I can tell you that GOD has personally sent me ..to write here.

Yet these are the same chaps who will say bharkodaaro..keep quiet when any issue of manmat arises.

My question is why wait for parcharaks when you know there is manmat and what the manmat is.Why dont one stops that without waiting fo rthe parcharaaks, who are only there because it is their money making time!
 
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Chaan Pardesi

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Kawaljit Singh jio, Gurmukho, no chnace of any recognise bani of Guru Gobind Singh can be lost as the 7% identified is the bani.The panth is in agreement over this.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Chan Pardesi Ji.. your comment about Malaysia and..so called...

"fresh Parcharaks"...?? made me laugh...Its NOT the Parcharaks that are "fresh"..its the AGENTS that bring them in that are "fresh"...the old ones have been pushed out..and fresh ones are now there to make their money out of bringing in parcaharaks...its the same old wine but bottled in new bottles by newer bottlers...so dont expect anything fantastic..just that when this present group of "fresh agents" get thrown out.."fresher agents" will come in BUT the parcahraks will be the SAME ONES (except those that died)..Parchaar/Bringing in Parcahraks/ragis etc is BIG MONEY. Gone are the days when we had GENUINE MISSIONARY PARCHARAKS like Gyani PHUMMANN SINGH from Punjab, or Gyani Mohinder singh missionary who went from town to town doing parchaar on a nominal salary. Now "parcahaar" is more "entertainment" than genuine TEACHING of GURMATT.
Sans fear or favour ....
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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While we were discussing this topic..one of my young students asked me a pertinent question...He asked: Master Ji, IF Guru Gobind Singh ji was so concerned about HIS "PREVIOUS LIFE" and wrote the bachitar natak Granth describing Hemkunt etc etc etc etc in great DETAIL...why did He leave the CONCLUDING CHAPTERS BLANK ?? I mean why didnt Guru ji also write a few chapters on AFTER 1708 ?? Didnt Guru ji FORSEE the FUTURE ?? Couldnt He see say up til..1900 or further into 2000 and write up to then ?? AND if he cant see into the Future than the "seeing into the Past" is a FARCE. OF Course..LOGIC is like that..it demands answers...and just because we are stupid we drag our Gurus down to our level...so lets have a Bachitar natak up to 2010 !! or forever keep shut about the one about Hemkunt.

WOW and SUPER WOW..IF only GGS had written the bachitar natak Granth FORWARDS..the Entire world would KNOW DEFINITELY as History Foretold by GGS unfolded before our EYES...India's Subjugation under the British, Indian Independence, World wars 1, 11 Hiroshima Nagasaki, Japan..Chine being Communist, Hitler and genocide of 6 million Jews, Present Kennedy assassination..Vietnam war..George Bush and Iraq war etc etc etc..so MUCH SOLID PROOF.......But then we all know only too well that LIARS like to "talk only about..previous lives..previous births, other planets.galaxies..flying spiders and etc etc because all those are IMPOSSIBLE to prove/disprove..FAITH is REQUIRED....and thats very GOOD as FAITH SHARDHA is a ILLOGICAL BLIND WEAPON suitable every where...whereas FORWARD WRITINGS can be Proven as TIME UNFOLDS...we have absolutely NO SHAME in calling our GURU a LIAR because what eh supposedly wrote cant be proved...In FACT our GURU wrote no such lies..they are clever inventions by vested interests....fooling us all..lets wise up...ONLY the SGGS is TRUTH and TRUTH and ONLY TRUTH irrefutable TRUTH for all time. Period.:tablakudi::blueturban::interestedsingh::singhbhangra::happysingh::redturban:0:):sippingcoffeemunda:japposatnamwaheguru:
 

Ambarsaria

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I do believe one also needs to do bit of perspective check.

It needs no proof to say that even during Guru Nanak Dev ji's time to say Guru Arjan Dev ji, they had access to all kinds of literal material. Including I am sure some erotic, pornographic, highly spiritual with different direction, and so on. Could the Guru ji have compiled Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the type of content in Dasam Granth? I Am sure they could have. Why didn't they? Why were they selective even in including some but not all contributions of some whose writings are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? For example Bahagat Kabir ji. The reason is that Sikhism was a model that Guru ji vetted again and again. They ensured that the messages were as clearly and consistently carried forward. I sincerely do not understand who are we to now start creating or taking writings outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and putting them at the same level. There is nothing wrong about studying writings in addition to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
We need to differentiate very clearly what is meant by GUR -BANI. Gur is the one creator in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, bar none. Bani is composition about that one GUR. If we cannot even understand this much I believe we need to really question who we really are? People understanding the basics stated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and realizing some of that wisdom in our lives or simple fad seekers.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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itsmaneet

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Above are some of the writing from charitro pahkyian...doing the same..having agreed that these are stories he then asks that no one should beleive such without any evidence of his own.


"Further, am a very common Sikh & one thing is sure that i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & atleast am nvr gonna show my back to my father .... like so called Kala Afghana, Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa & their followers doing these days ..."<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Itsmaneet Ji, You have not given any iota of evidence that it is indeed wholly writen by what you call "your father".Is that why you hoping that others will follow you and beleive the same?

You have been on about charitro pakhian and its contents;perhaps you find it interesting and may also read it in the presence of your daughters, parents and females; like one can comfortably read the Gurbani of Guru Granth sahib.

Will you?Also can you tell me with precise evidence to who exactly wrote these charitr pakhiyaan.We have all heard the allegations abt the author...but it certainly is NOT Guru Gobind Singh ji.So how does that make your pita's writings?

While there is an abundance of evidence and even the scholars of the panth have factually established and agreed that NOT the whole dasam granth is of Guru Gobind Singh's bani, here is YOU that comes along and claims "i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & at least am nvr gonna show my back to my father"

But all that without offering any shred of evidence!!NOt a single iota of reference has been provided by to say this why you believe so.

To me you very much sound like those paracharaks who invent mythological stories as they go along and make it sound interesting>And it is Thanks to such story telling that there is so much confusion amongst Sikhs over these tales that are in the dasam granth!

And you expect me to believe you , just because you say so?

Let me tell you it is such story tellers who had been listening to Prof Darshan Singh Ji ,Kala afghana etc Singh,for years without quiblling... etc ; and then suddenly over night these same people[darshan singh etc] are accused of being anti panth; with the story tellers telling crooked stories turned them into so called demons.But people out there are not so foolish to believe such crooked stories.It is very apparent a bunch of fools do not want people who can rationalise to compete with their nonsense.


There is a saying if one tells lies long enough,one will start beleiving their own lies.I see that all the time with forensic mentally deranged and delusional crooks or people with personality disorders.So much so, they loose track of the reallity they have told along the line.

It is on record that the dasam granth has been diluted.For your information only yesterday I was at the British National Library [after going through the Olympic village] and went through the dasam granth for about 4 hours
Notes made by previous scholars who have researched it from 1901 all say it has been diluted.More than often even the authors of such stories in the DG are unknown.Period.

Scholars likeBhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Giani Lal singh [all had their vidya from snatan brahman orientated system]etc are of the opinion that there is certainly dilution and not the whole of dg is of Guru Gobind Singh ji.I have researched on it and in my article I have clearly stated the contents that relates to Gurbani is only 7% and no more.The rest totally contradicts the values and priciples of the Gurus and their teachings.

It is another story that the sadh sant snatan lobby being strong enough managed to get the issue shelved.But there is NO disagreement in the Panth that the whole dasam granth is not wholly the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and here you come along without any evidnce declare

"i believe DG is the creation of Dasam Pita Ji & at least am nvr gonna show my back to my father"

I find that quite amusing as an unacademic claim, and nothing more than the sadh that waffles off tales that nobody else has often heard about!

For your information, I have read the dasam granth 12 times, 7 in Punjabi and five in English.

Farsi is a language that I have learnt to speak, reasonably too along with others.There is no rockets science about braj bhasha, current day bhojpuri is near enough!

There is absolutely nothing wrong in reading any amount of literature, but what the problem is when attempts are made to declare it Guru --like it has been done in the recent past where the word Guru has been printed upon it by vested interests who wish to dilute the heritage and identity of the sikhs.Because dasam granth contains more grandmother tales and hindu kaam shashtra and vidya like to how to over come or increase sexual prowess, powers have realised it is easy to mislead the sikhs.The sadh lobby too recognises that as long they keep sikhs are interested in the tales, their own KURSI is safe;....in fact the non discussion order by the panth has created an atmosphere that encourages this negative on going controversy...as the lsser people know the truth, the easier for them to continue their stories and claims and keep people memerised.
The DG is not comparable to the Guru Granth sahib;neither is it the guardian of MIRI or whatever as opposed to Guru Granth sahib.
Dear Chan Pardesi Ji

Thanks for quite a longggg writing.

a. First thing, i never said DG as my GURU let this be very clear to all.
b. i do believe that Bani of DG is helpful & can be read by individual for his/her knowledge.
c. Who's asking you to read it with your parents, daughter etc. There are certain things that
an individual never would like to disclose to all shouting here and there.
d. There are many writings in DG that opposes Brahmical practices so it's not Brahmical
Granth as being claimed by many these days.
e. "7% Bani is authentic" don't know how you saying it. Few years later you may come
down to 1% & then to 0%.
f. Charitropakhyan is the face of society. Tell me whats not happening in society. All been
mentioned there is happening & will keep happening. As once Maskeen ji said "Excess
Lust will make a man rapist & the same will make a woman a ***** (Sorry)". It's
happening & cannot be denied. Coz its the part of human. Buttt.... if it's been explained
how to conquer these bad evils by taking reference of stories (Pakhyan) is fine to me.
g. Today these anti Dasam people have even started opposing the Ardaas...don't know
what kinda new Ardaas they want !!

DG is not our Guru but should be respected & read, that what i believe if others don't that doesn't mean to dis obey the Granth.

At present i don't think there's any who can come never Sants like Maskeen Ji. He never opposed DG & must be for some valid reason.....
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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At present i don't think there's any who can come never Sants like Maskeen Ji. He never opposed DG & must be for some valid reason.....
There is No such SANT.

Secondly if there ever was such a SANT..then he still HUMAN..while Gurbani is DIVINE...Manukh kee TEK BIRTHEE Jaan...is Gurbani Command.Litmus TEST is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. not human opinions...IF a "person" Never "OPPOSED" how does it AUTOMATICALLY prove ACCEPTANCE ??
 
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itsmaneet

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At present i don't think there's any who can come never Sants like Maskeen Ji. He never opposed DG & must be for some valid reason.....

There is No such SANT.

Secondly if there ever was such a SANT..then he still HUMAN..while Gurbani is DIVINE...Manukh kee TEK BIRTHEE Jaan...is Gurbani Command.Litmus TEST is SGGS. not human opinions...IF a "person" Never "OPPOSED" how does it AUTOMATICALLY prove ACCEPTANCE ??
Same Quest with Anti-Dasam Granth community ..... Why opposing if you don't have any intention of accepting it? Atleast they should be quiet & stop attempts to degrade DG.

Also, Gyani Ji .. Do you have a precise defination of "Sant" Who in your eyes/views is a "Sant" ?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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SANT..in Singular is...Bhgats who have composed GURBANI present in SGGS....SIKH GURU SAHIBAAN and SGGS.
SANT in PLURAL is the SAADH SANGAT.

Thus OUTSIDE of the SGGS...there is NO Individual Human Sant esp NOT one who is Alive Today. Good Sikhs, Holy Sikhs, Gurmukh Sikhs, rehatvaan dharmee sikhs..yes yes yes..kaamaaii valleh sikhs..naam jappan valleh sikhs..YES YES YES..BUT NO "SANT"..NO Brahmgyani..NO Mahapurash...( Cretaor is Karta PURAKH---a human calls himself MAHApurakh ??) Khasmeh akreh BRABERII...warning in Vaar asa KI is very CLEAR...ALL these snats mahapurash brahmgynais satgurus gurus sri 108 s all are Khasmeh kareh Braberii type. No soup from me...

Maskeen Ji wasnt a SANT..his NAME is "Sant Singh..just as the official Bollywood Painter a few decades ago was also named SANT SINGH.. !! Film STILLS were always painted by SANT SINGH !! but he wa s no SANT ha ha..
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Same Quest with Anti-Dasam Granth community ..... Why opposing if you don't have any intention of accepting it? Atleast they should be quiet & stop attempts to degrade DG.

Also, Gyani Ji .. Do you have a precise defination of "Sant" Who in your eyes/views is a "Sant" ?
Its NOT the same quest Jios...because maskeen never "Opposed" its not automatic that he "accepted". Hes DEAD..os he cannot answer. Those who QUOTE his Name in support are simply whats called Dropping names...in an attempt to IMPRESS...see Jarnail singh Bhinderawallah..never opposed..see maskeen ji never opposed..blah blah blah..so DG MUST Be 1000% GGS Kirt..Gurbani..blah blah blah..Not LOGICAL. For the record I think MY own Dad did NOT "oppose"..in fact he had most of the accepted dg banis memorised by heart...at that time i was too young to ask him..and also i dint know anything like what i do know NOW...maybe my dad would have also changed his mind....so still LOGICAL...as my dad is also dead and cant answer...

2. Those Opposing do it because Name of their GURU is attached to this. DROP the Name GGS..and its problem solved. Keep on Matha teking..whatevr..just accept its written by Kavis Sham Raam whatever..NOT Guru Gobind Singh ji. As Long as the Gurus Name is listed as AUTHOR..the OPPOSITION will NEVER die out..in fact it will INCREASE as people see for themselves whats really INSIDE DG...
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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ਕਬਿਤੁ ॥
KABIT

ਕਮਲ ਸੇ ਆਨਨ ਕੁਰੰਗਨ ਸੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਨ ਸੌ ਤਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਮੈ ਸਾਰੇ ਭਾਵਨ ਸੋ ਭਰੀਆ ॥ ਰਾਜਤ ਹੈ ਗੁਪੀਆ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਭਈ ਐਸੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਚਰੇ ਤੇ ਜਿਉ ਬਿਰਾਜੈ ਸੇਤ ਹਰੀਆ ॥
The gopis with lotus-like faces, doe-like eyes and with lustrous bodies filled with emotions looked impressive like the green and white colours on the rising of the moon;

ਰਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਬਾਤੈ ਰਸ ਰੀਤ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਹੂੰ ਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬਿ ਸਯਾਮ ਸਾਥ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਜੂ ਕੇ ਖਰੀਆ ॥ ਮਦਨ ਕੇ ਹਾਰਨ ਬਨਾਇਬੇ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਮਾਨੋ ਹਿਤ ਕੈ ਪਰੋਵਤ ਹੈ ਮੋਤਨ ਕੀ ਲਰੀਆ ॥੨੭੦॥
They are standing with Krishna, while talking about dancing and amorous pastime; they are standing like the ones standing for braiding the necklace of gems in order to vest the god of love.

270
Guru Gobind Singh, Sri Krishnavatar, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji
 

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