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Hemkunt-Sikhs Chasing Shadows Of Brahmanwaad!

Chaan Pardesi

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For a long time, I have been going through some granths that have been accepted as prime resources of Sikh references.But to me many of these sources make no logical sense.However, that would be a subject for another day.They generally third and fourth person written..often claied to have been told by the father or the grandfather told the father who then passed it on ....

It has been said Guru Gobind Singh Ji meditated to Durga Devi upon a place referred to as Hemkunt sahib in his previous birth and that he was born off the skin of a tiger which ...was used to cover devta!

Prior to 1932, following the influences of brahmincally oriented writers like Bhai Sahib Vir Singh, and Kavi Santokh Singh Ji etc, a Giani Thakur Singh declared a place near Amritsar ,in Rawalsar Hills, called Suket Mandi as THE HEMKUNT SAHIB ,- the sapat serngh [ a name given by a poet Santokh Singh the author of Suraj Prakash]and he started preaching as such very strongly.People believed and followed to the Hemkunt Sahib in the Rawalsar hills.

Screen Shot 2012-08-09 at 6.18.15 PM.png
But towards the end of 1932, Pandit Tara Singh Narotam , who was another writer with brahminical modes declared Giani Thakur Singh to be wrong and that the real sapat serngh was the CURRENT - Hemkunt Sahib in the Himalaysas. ,where thousands of pilgrims go for yatra,sometimes loosing their lives but come back feeling "rejuvenated"!

In 1936,a Sant Mohan Singh from Tehri Garhwal,sat up the building of the Gurduara.Since then hundereds of thousands of Sikhs go for their once in a life time yatra of this so called alledged place, where it is said Guru Gobind Singh ji, in his previous birth is again allegedly meditated to Durga!After that Durga then predicted the birth of Guru Gobind Singh Ji from the skin of a tiger;hence some claim it gave rise to the Singhs- lions!This is a very long story , that if time permits we can through, so people can start thinking seriously to what exacty Sikhism is and what weare doing!

My question is on what grounds and how did these Sikhs of yester years , who had learnt through brahmini influences declare that this is the right place? When already another place near Rawalsar Hills, near Amritsar was already said to be the Hemkunt sahib!How that place[Rawalsar] was declared Hemkunt sahib, is also based upon the same panktees. So we get it wrong by thousands of miles????One says it is here, another says it is there...what if someone else says all of you ...are wrong! It is ... was after all in the Tora Bora Afghan Mountains!Are we all then going to run off to the Afghan Mountain of Tora Bora!

Hemkunt is described to be a valley surrounded by 7 peaks.If one goes to any mountain range in Malaysia or anyhwere in the world,one can find dozens of such places that are surround by peaks, perhaps 5, perhaps 10 or perhaps 7 .....give a number, and I am sure such can be accomodated for .If Rawalsar in the centre of 7 hills was one place then the current Hemkunt sahib is another, then there must be dozens of others around the world, that can claim the status!

Over ten thousand people,old, young and middle ages females and males are said to have died along this trek to Hemkunt sahib, since its founding!That death is regared as a blessing!More and more people are finding opportunies to earn monies by providing all sorts of services!The first place that one reaches Badrinaath, the Hemkunt sahib trust hands out literature about Hemkunt sahib that says and talks about the vedic mythology and its history and claims that Guru Gobind Singh prayed to Durga devi etc..Excursions and flights are arranged from many countries that charge the yartees through the nose to go for the yatra.The list is long!Most have not seen Chandni Chowk, or Patna sahib, or Nander, or Sirhind in their life, but practically everybody is joining the bhed chaal and dying to visit this very fabled and allegedly mystic place call Hemkunt sahib!

I am not against any Gurduara being built.The more the better, jhoolte rahen Nishan Panth maharaj ke!But as far as I understand from having read thoroughly, there is no biologically eveloped concept that such a place ever exists!The concept is based alledgely simply upon the one single panktee of chaupai sahib...

I wonder if this belief of Sikhs is based upon myth or fact of history!Gurbani has no place for myth!But there is no fact around to show that as well.Gurbani also does not teach in multiple births before life or after life....and by the way, can some one beleive that Guru Gobind Singh the magnificient all inclusive commander could be a fan of Durga devi?

There are other interesting issues that we can cover as the debate develops......hopefuly some knowledgable person can prove that sikhs are not chasing shadows..around ....especially with this place since 1932!

My intention of writing the article was to explore whether there is myth or a fact related to Hemkunt sahib; and not distract to whether GOD is in any special place or not [just yet].

Let us get back,if Hemkunt Sahib is a myth or not.If it is for real, then what/where/who says so ? The explanations given so far,through Suraj Parkash,[Kavi Santokh Singh's Poetry] and Bachitter Natak do not look plausible or convincing enough !Neither are they specific;nor they support distinctive Gurbani uttered by Guru Gobind Singh ji.

The choice of Rawalsar Hills by Giani Thakur Singh first in January 1932; and later,at the the current site on the hearsay of Pandit Tara Singh Narotam exposes that there is really no significant certainty of a fact based decision.

If this is a myth why are Sikhs intent on chasing shadows and myths, while they claim to be followers of a great modern religion.There is a clear contradiction here.Guru Granth sahib and the Gurus did not chase myths, shadows or brahminical practices.

Even if we leave the unfounded myths and allegations of Durga puja by Guru Gobind Singh Ji aside and his previous births, I still see no constructive baseline or fact that clearly points out that is is indeed the site of so called "hemkunt sahib"

There are many more contradictions of practices here.I shall not dwell into that as yet.

The panktee that this MYTH about Hemkunt Sahib is based upon is from Chaupaii Sahib, as based in the bachitter natak, which now is composed in the alleged dasam granth.

Ab mai'n apni katha bekhano/
Tap sadat jeh'h bidh muh ano/
Hemkunt parbat hai jaha'n /
SapatseRng sobhat hai taha'n/
SapatseRng te'h naam kahava /
PanD raj jag jog kamava/
te'h hum adhik tapasya sadhi/
maha kaal kalka aradhi/

IT APPEARS that Kavi Santokh Singh, the author of Suraj Parkash, then became heavily influenced by these panktees and alledgedly created his own story story about [...as according to the panktees]the person doing the tapsiya and gave the entity the name of Dushtdaman!He goes on to say that Dushatdaman stayed to do Tapsiya at hemkunt sahib with the permission of Bhagauti Durga Devi.

It is based on these story description that Giani Thakur Singh then alledgedly identified the Rawalsar Hills to be the hemkunt sahib.Which as said , was later transferred 800 miles or more over to Utrrakhand and the current site of Hemkunt Sahib by Pandit Tara Singh Narotam.All on the hearsay and poetry of one individual who was not even around during the times of Guru Gobind Singh!

May I point out that all religions of yester years are based upon folklore and fables that cannot be verified nor substantiated and only alleged.Only Sikh religion is based upon modern rationale and as it happened.But this story about Hemkunt does not go in line with such Sikh thinking and Gurbani.No Sikh Guru associated with any previous birth, nor recored anything about life prior to their becomming Sikhs.Therea a number instances where Sikh Gurus prior to their adopting the Suikh teachings did yatra, attended dipping in pools, etc; but these ended as soon they accepted the religion of Nanak Ji.

So, if we say hemkunt was associated with Guru Gobind Singh's previous birth; why are we not searching the mandir where Guru Ramdas did pilgrimage yearly [before acceoting sikhi] and why are we not searching for the place on the river ganga where Guru teg bahadur is alledged to have practiced brahminical rituals before he adopted Sikhi?Contradictions galore!

But, finally, the question again rises, are Sikhs chasing shadows in the so called Yatra of hemkunt Sahib ?There is no constructive support to say that such a place as Hemkunt really exists?Finally by choosing such myhthical place as hemkunt are we Sikhs not demeaning other places that trully associated with Sikh history.Why is Hemkunt far more important than River Sirsa, or Anandpur Sahib, or Paonta sahib or Nancy Kaurder sahib or Patna sahib?

Gurcharan Singh Kulim
Kamuning Hills.
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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Chaan Pardesi Ji

First of all, thanks for your views on Hemkunt Sahib. The question raised by you evoked in my mind too & whomever i asked answer the same that Guruji did mediate at the present Hemunt Gurudwara but still i wasn't convinced due to certain valid quest going in my mind & those few quest were -

a) 'Sikhism' never supports to quit 'Gruhasti' and meditate in lonely forests, mountains etc. Then why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji though his previous life (as been said) would go away from home & meditate there. Also Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself opposed such practices which can be read from Swayiye "Re Mann Aeso Kar Sanyaya Ban Se Sadam Sabbe Ghar Samjo...." & if he himself has done it in his previous life, it's contradictory.

b) If Guru Gobind Singh Ji had meditated in mountain (as been said)...and was ordered by God to serve humanity he could easily have come down the hills and what was the need of rebirth ???

Few more quest .... but above are strong enough. Coz of above quest. & i also agree with pardesi sahab that such hills can be found at numerous locations around the world ..in south africa, new zealand, aus etc.. then why only the present Hemund Sahib ... ?

Actually ... the following Anngs. have a biological (scientific) meaning & will put my view in future discussion in this thread with the blessings of 'Waheguru' ..

Ab mai'n apni katha bekhano/
Tap sadat jeh'h bidh muh ano/
Hemkunt parbat hai jaha'n /
SapatseRng sobhat hai taha'n/
SapatseRng te'h naam kahava /
PanD raj jag jog kamava/
te'h hum adhik tapasya sadhi/
maha kaal kalka aradhi/


But I strongly feel "Sachkhand Wasse Nirankar" .... Guru Granth Sahib Ji is present at Hemunt Sahib so it itself is a holy place but historians got is connection with Guru Gobind Singhji incorrect. ...

Pul-Chuk Maaf ....

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh ...
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Jan 29, 2011
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It has been said Guru Gobind Singh Ji meditated to Durga Devi upon a place refered to as Hemkunt sahib in his previous birth and that he was born off the skin of a tiger which ...was used to cover devta!
I think somewhere on this forum, we have openly talked why all such theories were about Guru Gobind Singh only :)

Prior to 1932, following the influences of brahmincally oriented writers like Bhai Sahib Vir Singh, and Kavi Santokh Singh Ji etc, a Giani Thakur Singh declared a place near Amritsar ,in Rawalsar Hills, called Suket Mandi as THE HEMKUNT SAHIB
I personally think Bhai Vir Singh ji was not B-oriented, but yes, he really wanted to find and see if there was any such Gurudwara.

Hemkunt is described to be a valley surrounded by 7 peaks.If one goes to any mountain range in Malaysia or anyhwere in the world,one can find dozens of such places that are surround by peaks, perhaps 5, perhaps 10 or perhaps 7 .....give a number, and I am sure such can be accomodated for .If Rawalsar in the centre of 7 hills was one place then the current Hemkunt sahib is another, then there must be dozens of others around the world, that can claim the status!
Very true, but it is also about an icy lake in middle of 7 peaks.

My intention of writing the article was to explore whether there is myth or a fact related to Hemkunt sahib; and not distract to whether GOD is in any special place or not [just yet].
I have been twice. For me it is a feeling that just local Gurudwara is not enough, need to see more. I have felt that place is uninhabitable, how could one survive there. And it is against the philosophy of Guru to go away from society and meditate. And why it took someone 200 years after Guru sahib passed away to think of finding the place! Hmm maybe the British assault stopped any progress.

Even if we leave the unfounded myths and allegations of Durga puja by Guru Gobind Singh Ji aside and his previous births, I still see no constructive baseline or fact that clearly points out that is is indeed the site of so called "hemkunt sahib"
We all love myths, which we can never solve!

May I point out that all religions of yester years are based upon folklore and fables that cannot be verified nor substantiated and only alleged.Only Sikh religion is based upon modern rationale and as it happened.But this story about Hemkunt does not go in line with such Sikh thinking and Gurbani.No Sikh Guru associated with any previous birth, nor recored anything about life prior to their becomming Sikhs.Therea a number instances where Sikh Gurus prior to their adopting the Suikh teachings did yatra, attended dipping in pools, etc; but these ended as soon they accepted the religion of Nanak Ji.
TRUE!

So, if we say hemkunt was associated with Guru Gobind Singh's previous birth; why are we not searching the mandir where Guru Ramdas did pilgrimage yearly [before acceoting sikhi] and why are we not searching for the place on the river ganga where Guru teg bahadur is alledged to have practiced brahminical rituals before he adopted Sikhi?Contradictions galore!
Question comes back to the point, why is Guru Gobind Singh target of all such stories?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Question comes back to the point, why is Guru Gobind Singh target of all such stories?
Related..BJP is making an attempt in Parliament to have the DEH SHIVA declared National Anthem of India...wonder why ?? This is related to the rss, dg, hemkunt sants deras prolifertaion, etc etc...and why GGS is targeted...
 

itsmaneet

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Related..BJP is making an attempt in Parliament to have the DEH SHIVA declared National Anthem of India...wonder why ?? This is related to the rss, dg, hemkunt sants deras prolifertaion, etc etc...and why GGS is targeted...
Gyani Ji .....
Do you oppose "Deh Shiva Varr .." If yes, why?
Also will appreciate if you can plz let me have your views on it .....
 

Harry Haller

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The trouble with Sikhism is it just is not exciting enough. religions are supposed be mystical, magical with strange elaborate rituals and worship. What has Sikhism got, just plain follow Hukam, and find Naam through this. To study, learn, understand, practice. Some Sikhs clearly wish Sikhism was more interesting, Naam is not enough, they need to worship like donkeys, follow strange stories, the gold at the end of the rainbow, surely a Sikh should just marvel at the rainbow. Is the rainbow not enough that some have to lose thier lives in the pursuit of something that is inside them already.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Gyani Ji .....
Do you oppose "Deh Shiva Varr .." If yes, why?
Also will appreciate if you can plz let me have your views on it .....
Its a composition in the DG. This is NOT our GURU.
Thus I dont PROPOSE it rather than saying i OPPOSE it..i just dont accept without question anything besides what MY GURU, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says.
Theres a lot of matter already written on it - including books by Bhagat Singh Ambala, Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana, and is available on the SinghSabha Canada websites as well as many other sites. Bottom LIne..MY LITMUS TEST is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and according to that LT this FAILS.

2. To Confirm my hypothesis above...the Deh Shiva song firts came into prominenece when it was sung in the Kapoor Film Nanak naam jahaz Hai..and with that beginning it has now reached a stage where the RSS, Bal Thakery, BJP,( The MOST VITRIOLITIC ANTI SIKH, ANTI PUNJAB party of all time), arya samajists, etc etc have come out in Solid Support...as they have NEVER done for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Harmandar sahib, Akal Takhat or any other Sikh Institution....Read BETWEEN the LINES and reach your own conclusions. I would say..with "ENEMIES" like BJP supporting YOU who needs FRIENDS ?? ( ON RECORD..the BJP Lalas have NEVER supported or done a SINGLE pro-sikh, pro-punjab decision ever...they are the ones who distributed laddoos over Op bluestar..and they will distribute moti choor laddoos if the Deh Shiva does become the National Anthem because then as the TROJANS did centuries ago..the SIKHS would have been fooled into taking the GREEK MADE ...TROJAN HORSE right inside the GATES.

The BJP/Arya Samajists/Comrades will NEVER support the Living Sikh "HORSE"...BUT will do anything and go to any length to get SOME SIKHS ta least to ACCEPT this WOODEN HORSE...because this WOODEN TROJAN HORSE is their invention...and they will never rest until the sikhs take it in..thats the root cause of the entire DG controversy with the side dishes of namdharees,Nanksarees, rarrewallahs, Dhadriwallahs, this waalh and that wallah, Nirankarees, beas soamis, deras, fake gurus, satgurus, satguru chairs in universities, etc etc etc uprooting of the SRM inside Gurdwaras and Takhats, widespread wastage of valuable sikh resources on nagar kirtans, kirtan darbaars, multiples of akhand paaths and various rituals, festivals, on religious plane, water and other resources on physical plane, drugs, lachar geets films etc on social plane, female foeticide etc etc the SEIGE of Sikhs, Punjab is at a critical Stage...everyone knows its HIGH NOON at the Chapprall..and a SIKH Wyatt Earp is needed. I rest my case.:singhsippingcoffee:Todays Rozana spokesman article on DEH SHIVA http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?view=main&mview=Jul&dview=23&pview=7

2. http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?view=main&mview=Jul&dview=22&pview=3
 
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itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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Its a composition in the DG. This is NOT our GURU.
Thus I dont PROPOSE it rather than saying i OPPOSE it..i just dont accept without question anything besides what MY GURU, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says.
Theres a lot of matter already written on it - including books by Bhagat Singh Ambala, Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana, and is available on the SinghSabha Canada websites as well as many other sites. Bottom LIne..MY LITMUS TEST is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and according to that LT this FAILS.

2. To Confirm my hypothesis above...the Deh Shiva song firts came into prominenece when it was sung in the Kapoor Film Nanak naam jahaz Hai..and with that beginning it has now reached a stage where the RSS, Bal Thakery, BJP,( The MOST VITRIOLITIC ANTI SIKH, ANTI PUNJAB party of all time), arya samajists, etc etc have come out in Solid Support...as they have NEVER done for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Harmandar sahib, Akal Takhat or any other Sikh Institution....Read BETWEEN the LINES and reach your own conclusions. I would say..with "ENEMIES" like BJP supporting YOU who needs FRIENDS ?? ( ON RECORD..the BJP Lalas have NEVER supported or done a SINGLE pro-sikh, pro-punjab decision ever...they are the ones who distributed laddoos over Op bluestar..and they will distribute moti choor laddoos if the Deh Shiva does become the National Anthem because then as the TROJANS did centuries ago..the SIKHS would have been fooled into taking the GREEK MADE ...TROJAN HORSE right inside the GATES.

The BJP/Arya Samajists/Comrades will NEVER support the Living Sikh "HORSE"...BUT will do anything and go to any length to get SOME SIKHS ta least to ACCEPT this WOODEN HORSE...because this WOODEN TROJAN HORSE is their invention...and they will never rest until the sikhs take it in..thats the root cause of the entire DG controversy with the side dishes of namdharees,Nanksarees, rarrewallahs, Dhadriwallahs, this waalh and that wallah, Nirankarees, beas soamis, deras, fake gurus, satgurus, satguru chairs in universities, etc etc etc uprooting of the SRM inside Gurdwaras and Takhats, widespread wastage of valuable sikh resources on nagar kirtans, kirtan darbaars, multiples of akhand paaths and various rituals, festivals, on religious plane, water and other resources on physical plane, drugs, lachar geets films etc on social plane, female foeticide etc etc the SEIGE of Sikhs, Punjab is at a critical Stage...everyone knows its HIGH NOON at the Chapprall..and a SIKH Wyatt Earp is needed. I rest my case.:singhsippingcoffee:Todays Rozana spokesman article on DEH SHIVA http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?view=main&mview=Jul&dview=23&pview=7

2. http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?view=main&mview=Jul&dview=22&pview=3
Dear Giani Ji

I don't know who sung it first & when. But I personally don't have any doubt that it's the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji coz-

1) Deh Shiva Barr Mohe Eh ... Here Shiva is being referred to the destructive quality of Almighty Waheguru. Remember that people have given 1000's of names to Almighty based on the qualities, imaginative looks etc of Almighty.

I feel Guruji is requesting Waheguru to possess him with the strength & power to fight injustice & that anger is being referred as 'Shiva'.

2) Similarly in many parts of Guru Granth Sahib & DG, Waheguru is also referred as "Murari" so people like Kala Afghana would also have objection on that & one day oppose Guru Grath Sahib Ji as well. Murar means a weapon & one using it is called 'Murari'. Usually Hindu people refer Murari to Krishan as he once killed a devil with Murar (Weapon)

3) Further if someone is following people like Kala Afhana, I have no interest on talk on the rubbish findings of Kala Afghana. He's been already thrown out of Sikh Panth & Kala Afghana & his so called followers are leaving no stone unturned to degrade Dasam Pitaji. They all are just deing hard to prove the 'milk is black in color' which is not possible what ever they say.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh ....
 
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Harry Haller

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3) Further if someone is following people like Kala Afhana, I have no interest on talk on the
rubbish findings of Kala Afghana. He's been already thrown out of Sikh Panth & Kala
Afghana & his so called followers are no stone unturned to degrade Dasam Pitaji. They all
are just deing hard to prove the 'milk is black in color' which is not possible what ever
they say.
I find Kala Afghana an absolute breathe of fresh air.

There is only one Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is authenticated and audited and it is the Hukam of Guru that this is accepted as the word of God. Guru Maneo Granth.

The DG may contain some interesting and beautiful writings, as well as some downright pornographic ones, but it is NOT the word of God, NOT the path of enlightenment, NOT the very fabric of our understanding, any such opinion only dilutes the content of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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I find Kala Afghana an absolute breathe of fresh air.

There is only one Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is authenticated and audited and it is the Hukam of Guru that this is accepted as the word of God. Guru Maneo Granth.

The DG may contain some interesting and beautiful writings, as well as some downright pornographic ones, but it is NOT the word of God, NOT the path of enlightenment, NOT the very fabric of our understanding, any such opinion only dilutes the content of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Well, i too agree that Sikh have only one Guru & that 'Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj' & even Dasam Pita himself said 'Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Maneo Granth' .......

but that doesn't mean Sikhs should loud their voice to degrade writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji ... It's written by Guruji & should be respected.
 

Harry Haller

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Well, i too agree that Sikh have only one Guru & that 'Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj' & even Dasam Pita himself said 'Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Maneo Granth' .......

but that doesn't mean Sikhs should loud their voice to degrade writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji ... It's written by Guruji & should be respected.
sure it was written by Guruji, let us review some of these wonderful writings that you are saying were written by Guruji

Charratir No. 25

ਭਗ ਮੋ ਲਿੰਗ ਦਿਯੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਬ। ਰੁਚ ਉਪਜੀ ਤਰਨੀ ਕੇ ਜਿਯ ਤਬ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਆਸਨ ਤਰ ਗਈ। ਚੁੰਬਨ ਕਰਤ ਭੂਪ ਕੇ ਭਈ। ੨੫। ਗਹਿ ਗਹਿ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਗਰੇ ਲਗਾਵਾ। ਆਸਨ ਸੋ ਆਸਨਹਿ ਛੁਹਾਵਾ। ਅਧਰਨ ਸੌ ਦੋਊ ਅਧਰ ਲਗਾਈ। ਦੁਹੂੰ ਕੁਚਨ ਸੌ ਕੁਚਨ ਮਿਲਾਈ। ੨੬।
Bhug Mo Ling Deyo Raaja Jubb Ruch Upjee Turnee Kay Jeyh Tub Luppt Luppt Aassnn
Turr Gaaee Chumban Kurtt Bhoop Kay Bhaaee 25 Gahe Gahe Teh Ko Gray Lagaava
Aasan So Aasneh Shuhaava Aadhrun Sau Doaou Aadhar Lagaaee Duhoo Kuchan Sau
Kuchan Milaaee 26
When the king placed his ***** in the vagina, the woman felt desire in her heart.
Clinging and hugging, they took various sexual positions.
Both of their bodies joined with each other. 25.
Holding and holding, she gave him hugs.
They matched each other physically.
Their lips connected to each other.
Their bodies were joined to each other’s.

Hmmmm

Charritar No: 312

ਕੈ ਜੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਤਜੁ। ਕੈ ਰੁਚਿ ਮਾਨਿ ਆਉ ਮੁਹਿ ਕੌ ਭਜੁ। ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। ੧੧। ਰਾਜ ਕੁਅਰ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਤਬ ਡਰਾ। ਕਾਮ ਭੋਗ ਤਿਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਾ। ਇਹ ਛਲ ਸੈ ਵਾ ਕੋ ਛਲਿ ਗਈ। ਰਾਇ ਬਿਰਾਗਿਯਹਿ ਭੋਗਤ ਭਈ। ੧੨। ਅੰਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਨ ਕੋ ਕਿਨੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਯੋ। ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਕਿਯੌ ਸਕਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ। ਵਹੈ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਭੇਦ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਹਾਰੋ। ੧੩। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੧੨, ੫.੪ ੮੭}
[the female is saying]: Hey fool! Either forget about living or have desireful sexual intercourse with me.
Either I will cut you into seven pieces or place your ***** (lundaa) into my vagina (bhug).
11. The Prince was very scared at this moment.
He had sexual intercourse with the woman.
She played him with this ploy and had sexual intercourse with the young prince (Beraag Raaye).
12. No one has known the end of women. Even the Creator is regretting after creating them.
The one who has created this creation, even He has failed to understand women. 13. 1.

Guru Gobind Singhji may have had some writings included in the DG, but given the above content, I think it fails the litmus test...............
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Dear Giani Ji

I don't know who sung it first & when. But I personally don't have any doubt that it's the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji coz-

1) Deh Shiva Barr Mohe Eh ... Here Shiva is being referred to the destructive quality of Almighty Waheguru. Remember that people have given 1000's of names to Almighty based on the qualities, imaginative looks etc of Almighty.

I feel Guruji is requesting Waheguru to possess him with the strength & power to fight injustice & that anger is being referred as 'Shiva'.

2) Similarly in many parts of Guru Granth Sahib & DG, Waheguru is also referred as "Murari" so people like Kala Afghana would also have objection on that & one day oppose Guru Grath Sahib Ji as well. Murar means a weapon & one using it is called 'Murari'. Usually Hindu people refer Murari to Krishan as he once killed a devil with Murar (Weapon)

3) Further if someone is following people like Kala Afhana, I have no interest on talk on the rubbish findings of Kala Afghana. He's been already thrown out of Sikh Panth & Kala Afghana & his so called followers are leaving no stone unturned to degrade Dasam Pitaji. They all are just deing hard to prove the 'milk is black in color' which is not possible what ever they say.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh ....
Veer Ji,

I DONT follow anyone BLINDLY...just MY GURU..the One and ONLY sarb kala Sampooran, COMPLETE in ALL ASPECTS..the Container of The SHABAD GURU the CREATOR..the Sahib Sri GURU GRANTH JI. PERIOD.

Anything and any word can be "EXPLAINED" by anyone in any way...its the Easiest and simplest thing to do...BUT for any poetry to Pass the LITMUS TEST of SGGS is THE most difficult thing in this world...and MOST of whats in DG is far far nearer the BOTTOM of the Barrel than near the TOP as far as SGGS is concerned. NO Body has even succeeded in writing one line of GURBANI that can pass the Litmus Test...thats why the SGGS remains as it was in 1708 when Guru Gobind Singh ji Matha Tekked to it and bestowed the Gur-Gadee of Nanak ji. There was NO OTHER GRANTH BESIDE the One Copy of SGGS in 1708. So the First thing WRONG is having another granth parkash on PAR clearly disobeying the Sabh sikhan ko HUKAM HAI...mahavaak. The WORD HUKAM is self explanatory. The HUKAM has to be OBEYED 100%..not even 99.99% is acceptable. Period.

Its my contention that THOSE WHO DISOBEY this Final HUKAM of Guru ji are the Ones more GUILTY than any Kala or chittah afghana..and TWO of these GUILTY MEN sat on the Board that "kicked" out KA from the Panth !! Ultra Vires and injustice of the Grossest type. A Blackest of BLACK POT calling a slightly LIGHT GREY Kettle BLACK.

I personally MET one of the remaining THREE (stooges) when he came visiting here..i found him the SHIFTIEST LIAR. Lying to the sangat through his yellowed teeth....squirming and turning about answering direct written questions and evading..absolutely NO RESPECT for such.He was more interested in selling subscriptions to Gurmatt Parkash...via his relative who he brought along as his PA which is CORRUPT PRACTICE ( like IF PM Manmohan takes along his son in law as his Official PA !!) The Book he co-authored was actually written here while the author was pretending to be a simple Granthi....

I am a Simple SIKH whose Blood line is pure SIKH for past 250 years...so Ivichar without fear or favour to none..na ko beri nahin begannah..SAGAL saang hum ko bann ayee..I only and ONLY LOVE the SGGS. Period.:blueturban::happysingh:
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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Veer Ji,

I DONT follow anyone BLINDLY...just MY GURU..the One and ONLY sarb kala Sampooran, COMPLETE in ALL ASPECTS..the Container of The SHABAD GURU the CREATOR..the Sahib Sri GURU GRANTH JI. PERIOD.

Anything and any word can be "EXPLAINED" by anyone in any way...its the Easiest and simplest thing to do...BUT for any poetry to Pass the LITMUS TEST of SGGS is THE most difficult thing in this world...and MOST of whats in DG is far far nearer the BOTTOM of the Barrel than near the TOP as far as SGGS is concerned. NO Body has even succeeded in writing one line of GURBANI that can pass the Litmus Test...thats why the SGGS remains as it was in 1708 when Guru Gobind Singh ji Matha Tekked to it and bestowed the Gur-Gadee of Nanak ji. There was NO OTHER GRANTH BESIDE the One Copy of SGGS in 1708. So the First thing WRONG is having another granth parkash on PAR clearly disobeying the Sabh sikhan ko HUKAM HAI...mahavaak. The WORD HUKAM is self explanatory. The HUKAM has to be OBEYED 100%..not even 99.99% is acceptable. Period.

Its my contention that THOSE WHO DISOBEY this Final HUKAM of Guru ji are the Ones more GUILTY than any Kala or chittah afghana..and TWO of these GUILTY MEN sat on the Board that "kicked" out KA from the Panth !! Ultra Vires and injustice of the Grossest type. A Blackest of BLACK POT calling a slightly LIGHT GREY Kettle BLACK.

I personally MET one of the remaining THREE (stooges) when he came visiting here..i found him the SHIFTIEST LIAR. Lying to the sangat through his yellowed teeth....squirming and turning about answering direct written questions and evading..absolutely NO RESPECT for such.He was more interested in selling subscriptions to Gurmatt Parkash...via his relative who he brought along as his PA which is CORRUPT PRACTICE ( like IF PM Manmohan takes along his son in law as his Official PA !!) The Book he co-authored was actually written here while the author was pretending to be a simple Granthi....

I am a Simple SIKH whose Blood line is pure SIKH for past 250 years...so Ivichar without fear or favour to none..na ko beri nahin begannah..SAGAL saang hum ko bann ayee..I only and ONLY LOVE the SGGS. Period.:blueturban::happysingh:
Dear Giani Ji

Thanks for your views. Of course you are much more knowledgeable & experienced than me with an excellent understanding on Gurbani.

As far as board is concerned, i don't know it's member but what i know id that Shri Akal Takht is our Supreme Court & being Sikh i would accept its orders/decisions. May be the board member are or get corrupt but am least concerned on it as they'll will be answerable to Waheguru.

i also agree with you that Dasam Grath Sahib should not be prakashed on par with Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj which is a matter that should be resolved in discussions. But i know that Guru Granth Sahib Ji have 1430 Angs & Shri Dasam Granth was intentially maintained with 1429 Angs. only to confirm that Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru & will be forever.

But again, am never saying Dasam Granth is on par with Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but it being a creation of our beloved Guru Dasam Pitaji ..... it deserves respect.

Gurfateh !
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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sure it was written by Guruji, let us review some of these wonderful writings that you are saying were written by Guruji

Charratir No. 25

ਭਗ ਮੋ ਲਿੰਗ ਦਿਯੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਬ। ਰੁਚ ਉਪਜੀ ਤਰਨੀ ਕੇ ਜਿਯ ਤਬ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਆਸਨ ਤਰ ਗਈ। ਚੁੰਬਨ ਕਰਤ ਭੂਪ ਕੇ ਭਈ। ੨੫। ਗਹਿ ਗਹਿ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਗਰੇ ਲਗਾਵਾ। ਆਸਨ ਸੋ ਆਸਨਹਿ ਛੁਹਾਵਾ। ਅਧਰਨ ਸੌ ਦੋਊ ਅਧਰ ਲਗਾਈ। ਦੁਹੂੰ ਕੁਚਨ ਸੌ ਕੁਚਨ ਮਿਲਾਈ। ੨੬।
Bhug Mo Ling Deyo Raaja Jubb Ruch Upjee Turnee Kay Jeyh Tub Luppt Luppt Aassnn
Turr Gaaee Chumban Kurtt Bhoop Kay Bhaaee 25 Gahe Gahe Teh Ko Gray Lagaava
Aasan So Aasneh Shuhaava Aadhrun Sau Doaou Aadhar Lagaaee Duhoo Kuchan Sau
Kuchan Milaaee 26
When the king placed his ***** in the vagina, the woman felt desire in her heart.
Clinging and hugging, they took various sexual positions.
Both of their bodies joined with each other. 25.
Holding and holding, she gave him hugs.
They matched each other physically.
Their lips connected to each other.
Their bodies were joined to each other’s.

Hmmmm

Charritar No: 312

ਕੈ ਜੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਤਜੁ। ਕੈ ਰੁਚਿ ਮਾਨਿ ਆਉ ਮੁਹਿ ਕੌ ਭਜੁ। ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। ੧੧। ਰਾਜ ਕੁਅਰ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਤਬ ਡਰਾ। ਕਾਮ ਭੋਗ ਤਿਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਾ। ਇਹ ਛਲ ਸੈ ਵਾ ਕੋ ਛਲਿ ਗਈ। ਰਾਇ ਬਿਰਾਗਿਯਹਿ ਭੋਗਤ ਭਈ। ੧੨। ਅੰਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਨ ਕੋ ਕਿਨੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਯੋ। ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਕਿਯੌ ਸਕਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ। ਵਹੈ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਭੇਦ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਹਾਰੋ। ੧੩। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੧੨, ੫.੪ ੮੭}
[the female is saying]: Hey fool! Either forget about living or have desireful sexual intercourse with me.
Either I will cut you into seven pieces or place your ***** (lundaa) into my vagina (bhug).
11. The Prince was very scared at this moment.
He had sexual intercourse with the woman.
She played him with this ploy and had sexual intercourse with the young prince (Beraag Raaye).
12. No one has known the end of women. Even the Creator is regretting after creating them.
The one who has created this creation, even He has failed to understand women. 13. 1.

Guru Gobind Singhji may have had some writings included in the DG, but given the above content, I think it fails the litmus test...............
Dear Harry Ji

Without any surprise just like all i can see that your whole attention went on these Angs. I think there are 1000's of other Angs too in Shri Dasam Granth Ji.*

Further, i agree that "Kaam" has been openly discussed in the Granth but question yourself, can you live without Kaam & Krodh ?? You know what a person will be like in absence of above two....Both are imp but of course in limits ..... If one exceeds limit consequences can be dreadful. In many places examples are given about the misuse of Krodh, Kaam & its worst consequences just to warn the Sikhs.

In the same Granth Guruji says,*
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਹੰਕਾਰ ਲੋਭ ਹਠ ਮੋਹ ਨ ਮਨ ਸੋ ਲਯਾਵੈ ॥ਤਬ ਹੀ ਆਤਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਦਰਸੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਹ ਪਾਵੈ

Why don't people remember this written By Guruji in the very same Shri Dasam Granth???

Further, there have been numerous Sant in Sikhi like Baba Deep Singh Ji, Hari Singh Nalua, Banda Singh Bahadur, Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa, Sant Singh Ji Maskeen etc.... & history says they all use to read Dasam Granth Ji ..... why these Sants never raised their opposition to this Granth ???
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Itsmaneetji

OK, lets forget the lesson about Kaam, Krodh, let us look at it from another angle.


12. No one has known the end of women. Even the Creator is regretting after creating them.
The one who has created this creation, even He has failed to understand women. 13. 1.
So you are suggesting that, despite whatever explanation you have for the filth, that God who created women, does not understand them and has regrets? Hmmm I think I prefer the way Creator is described in the SGGS, but each to his own.
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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Itsmaneetji

OK, lets forget the lesson about Kaam, Krodh, let us look at it from another angle.




So you are suggesting that, despite whatever explanation you have for the filth, that God who created women, does not understand them and has regrets? Hmmm I think I prefer the way Creator is described in the SGGS, but each to his own.
Dear Brother

You have just posted two Angs & asking the question. Please also tell which chapters these Angs are from & in what contest the same has been written.

Even Guru Nanak Ji once said "Mayiya Rabb Rajayiyan" What you'll say on that BTW ?
 

Harry Haller

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Dearest Brother

ਭਗ ਮੋ ਲਿੰਗ ਦਿਯੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਬ। ਰੁਚ ਉਪਜੀ ਤਰਨੀ ਕੇ ਜਿਯ ਤਬ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਆਸਨ ਤਰ ਗਈ। ਚੁੰਬਨ ਕਰਤ ਭੂਪ ਕੇ ਭਈ। ੨੫। ਗਹਿ ਗਹਿ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਗਰੇ ਲਗਾਵਾ। ਆਸਨ ਸੋ ਆਸਨਹਿ ਛੁਹਾਵਾ। ਅਧਰਨ ਸੌ ਦੋਊ ਅਧਰ ਲਗਾਈ। ਦੁਹੂੰ ਕੁਚਨ ਸੌ ਕੁਚਨ ਮਿਲਾਈ। ੨੬।

you will find on page 2228 http://www.sridasam.org

ਕੈ ਜੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਤਜੁ। ਕੈ ਰੁਚਿ ਮਾਨਿ ਆਉ ਮੁਹਿ ਕੌ ਭਜੁ। ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। ੧੧। ਰਾਜ ਕੁਅਰ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਤਬ ਡਰਾ। ਕਾਮ ਭੋਗ ਤਿਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਾ। ਇਹ ਛਲ ਸੈ ਵਾ ਕੋ ਛਲਿ ਗਈ। ਰਾਇ ਬਿਰਾਗਿਯਹਿ ਭੋਗਤ ਭਈ। ੧੨। ਅੰਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਨ ਕੋ ਕਿਨੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਯੋ। ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਕਿਯੌ ਸਕਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ। ਵਹੈ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਭੇਦ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਹਾਰੋ। ੧੩। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੧੨, ੫.੪ ੮੭}

You will find on page 2122 same website

Mayiya Rabb Rajayiyan
Err, this line merely supports my argument, rather than yours, Why would Guru Gobind Singhji write the above DG quotation, in direct contradiction of Guru Nanakji?
 

itsmaneet

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Jun 13, 2012
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Dearest Brother

ਭਗ ਮੋ ਲਿੰਗ ਦਿਯੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਬ। ਰੁਚ ਉਪਜੀ ਤਰਨੀ ਕੇ ਜਿਯ ਤਬ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਆਸਨ ਤਰ ਗਈ। ਚੁੰਬਨ ਕਰਤ ਭੂਪ ਕੇ ਭਈ। ੨੫। ਗਹਿ ਗਹਿ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਗਰੇ ਲਗਾਵਾ। ਆਸਨ ਸੋ ਆਸਨਹਿ ਛੁਹਾਵਾ। ਅਧਰਨ ਸੌ ਦੋਊ ਅਧਰ ਲਗਾਈ। ਦੁਹੂੰ ਕੁਚਨ ਸੌ ਕੁਚਨ ਮਿਲਾਈ। ੨੬।

you will find on page 2228 http://www.sridasam.org

ਕੈ ਜੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਤਜੁ। ਕੈ ਰੁਚਿ ਮਾਨਿ ਆਉ ਮੁਹਿ ਕੌ ਭਜੁ। ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। ੧੧। ਰਾਜ ਕੁਅਰ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਤਬ ਡਰਾ। ਕਾਮ ਭੋਗ ਤਿਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਾ। ਇਹ ਛਲ ਸੈ ਵਾ ਕੋ ਛਲਿ ਗਈ। ਰਾਇ ਬਿਰਾਗਿਯਹਿ ਭੋਗਤ ਭਈ। ੧੨। ਅੰਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਨ ਕੋ ਕਿਨੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਯੋ। ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਕਿਯੌ ਸਕਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ। ਵਹੈ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਭੇਦ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਹਾਰੋ। ੧੩। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੧੨, ੫.੪ ੮੭}

You will find on page 2122 same website



Err, this line merely supports my argument, rather than yours, Why would Guru Gobind Singhji write the above DG quotation, in direct contradiction of Guru Nanakji?
"Mayiya Rabb Rajayiyan" was said when certain group of weird women said few things to Guru Nanak Ji but Guru Nanak Ji said this line with a smile which I feel coz he felt who will argue with these & waste time ...

Further in Charitropakhyan, 405 (in total characters) are being described on both male & female, may be to expose the various faces of human & how to deal with them. ...
 

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