Hair/ਬਾਲ

[Randip Singh]

Tejwant Ji,

Being on Sikh Form when I noticed an article on Hair, I was intrigued and wanted to read if anything good about hair is written. To my surprise within a second I realized instead of respecting the God gift and mentioning its quality, guilt and agenda of author by twisting Gurbani to different ends and reading between the lines, the emphasis is given on non-importance of God Gift. But since Moderator had approved this article, I thought to logically destroy the reasoning of author with gur sabd pankties. As I was working to destroy the third sabd, I was shocked to read generalization of gurdwaras fights and others which had no links whatsoever with hairs. I wondered if this is the state of tranquility of author, how can one continue I stoped thus comments on third sabd. But now since you have intervened, I thought I should continue.

Sikhism is about spiritual evolution and that “there is a degree of desirability, bordering on essentiality, to keep long hair in addition to the command of our tenth Guru. There was a time when if anyone member of Sikh family under some compulsion was required to shave off head, the guilt will not permit him to come out of his house for a week out of shame, but now Guru Nanak declaration fits here, 'pwp kI jM\ lY kwblhu DwieAw jorI mMgY dwnu vy lwlo ]Bringing the marriage party of sin, Bollywood has invaded Sikhism, demanding to drop our wedding gift, O Lalo. srmu Drmu duie Cip Kloey kUVu iPrY prDwnu vy lwlo ]Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood, shameless struts around like a leader, O Lalo. I have no problem if anyone shaves off and lives naked, the problem comes when you start justifying the reasoning by distorting gurbani and wants to challenge and say hey now 80% of the Sikhim has abandoned hair – come out and you also drop so that their number increase to 90% or to 99%. In addition they want to take over Gurdwara and wants to becomes role model by becoming President so that new generation completely forsake the turban and beard.

You stated we need educated people. Here I slightly differ with you, There is no shortage of educated people, it is the will to use our discriminatory intelleect. Despite best education, did we stop idol worship, blind faith. Yesterday I was reading an article of highly educated person advocating that 33 croers Devta daily comes to Darbar sahib to pay homage – the myth which Hinduism has almost droped but we sikh have borrowed from them and or promoting.

Gurbani clearly tells us, ‘piVAw mUrKu AwKIAY ijsu lbu loBu AhMkwrw ] - that scholar who is full of greed, arrogant, does not use his discriminotry intellect and believes in blind faith, justifying his wrongdowing by distorting gurbani, pride and egotist, is known to be a unwise as the amount of ego is less in an uneduacted person”, Whereas function of knowledgeable person by practicing the right knowledge is to be polite, loving, compassionate, gentle, balanced and detached, helpful and thus a better human being.

Best regrds
Sahni Mohinder

In Sikhism keeping long hair is not an imposition like a circumsition, but what people do for love.

What use is long hair when the 5 thieves run wild?

What use is long hair when drugs and alcohol are being used by that person all day and everyday?

One last thing I would say, is not to attack the authors but challenge the facts.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Sure, as Bani says, The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. The Light being the Tenth Nanak is the Bani. As Guru Nanak Dev ji infused the light in Guru Angad Dev ji and Guru Angad Dev ji infused the Light in Guru Amar Das ji and so on. In the same way Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji infused the Light in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Also Bhai Sahib do you concur with the rest of this post?

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Dear Bhai Sahib,

The complete hymn you are referring comes in Raag Natt by Guru Ramdas does not fit in here;

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥

Baṇī gurū gurū hai baṇī vicẖ baṇī amriṯ sāre. Gur baṇī kahai sevak jan mānai parṯakẖ gurū nisṯāre.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Natt, AGGS, Page,982-11


Cordially,

Virinder

 

[japjisahib04]

Read this statement of sahib sri guru Arjan sahib ji in Rag Suhi p 746 & carefully consider what Guru ji has written.
God has no sign , no mouth & no beard.
We try to think that God has SOHNE NAK & LAMRE VALA. All this is our imagination. It is not the reality. It is not the fact. It is fiction. Why don’t we put all our faith in NIRANKAR?
Why don’t we go within & meditate on formless.?
I tell you this : IF YOU DON’T GO WITHIN YOU GO WITHOUT.
with love
Mahanbir Singh

This pankti is not uttered by us but the Sabd Guru himself who is embodiment of God.
Let us not confuse by mis interrpretting. If we accept sabd guru we must accept it in its totatility. While checking on google 'which year the shaving blade was invented' I immediately got the answer it is just 15o years old. This makes further clear at during the period of our guru, shaving was not teh fashion. Since muslim had started with circumcision for want of love of woman, guru clearly warned by stating saabat soorat dastar sira. Then gurbani tells us aap pachanai ta eko jaanai - how can we understand ourselves by disfiguring ourselves.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

 

[japjisahib04]

In Sikhism keeping long hair is not an imposition like a circumsition, but what people do for love.

What use is long hair when the 5 thieves run wild?

What use is long hair when drugs and alcohol are being used by that person all day and everyday?

One last thing I would say, is not to attack the authors but challenge the facts.

Dear Randip Ji
Since we are not able to find out the usage of long hairs, we are doubting on his perfection.

On your rest of post, I would not like to comments as Giani Jarnail Singh has already commented
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

 

[vsgrewal48895]

ਵਾਦਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਲਾ ॥ਮਨੁ ਦੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਹੇਲਾ ॥

vāḏ ahaʼnkār nāhī parabẖ mėlā. Man ḏė pāvahi nām suhėlā. Ḏūjai bẖā¬ė agi¬ān ḏuhėlā.

Union with God is not obtained by arguments and egotism. But by dedicating the mind to Guru one obtains Naam and peace. In the love of duality and ignorance, you shall suffer.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 226-8

ਭੈ ਬਿਚਿ ਭਾਉ ਭਾਇ ਕੋਊ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਜੇਤੇ ਘਟ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਪੀਆਈ ॥

Bhai Bich Bhaou Bhaaey Ko-ou Boojheh Har Ras Paavai Bhaaee, Jaytay Ghat Amrit Sabh Hee Meh Bhaavai Tiseh Pee-aa-ee.

In the Fear of God, is the Love of God? Only those few who understand Its Love obtain the sublime essence of It, Brothers. As many hearts as there are - in all of them, is Its Ambrosial Nectar, when pleased makes the individual to drink it. -----Bhagat Kabir, Raag Kedara, AGGS, Page, 1123-15


ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥


ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥ ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਿਤਾ੍ਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥

Kaha Bhaeo Douo Lochan Moondkay Baith Rehio Bak Dhayan Lagaio, Baas Keo Bikhian Se Baith Ke Ais So Bais Bataio,Saach Kahou Sun Leh Sabhai Jin Prem Kio Tin He Prabh Paio.Kaho Lai Paahan Pooj Dharo Sir Kaho Lai Ling Latkaio. Kaho Lakhio Har Avchari Disa Mai Kaho Pacha Ko Sis Nivaio. Kouo Butaan Kaou Poojat Hai Paso Kaou Mitan Kaou Poojan Dhaio. Koor Kiria Ourjhio Sabh Jag Siri Bhagvan Ko Bhed Na Paeio.

What if you close your eyes and sit in meditation like a crane/heron; take ablutions in the seven seas- but this way you loose both this world and the next; if one continues to indulge in sinful things, he wastes his life; Let all listen to the truth I proclaim- only he who loves attains the God. Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize God in the south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G. Page, 14-15

Virinder

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Deat Tejwant Ji

Perhaps you didn't read my posts wherein I clarified and presented my point. Further in the article, the whole agenda was to prove non-importance of HAIR through cut and pick pankties and nothing else and I was clarifying one by one. As stated earlier I have no problem if one shaves or maintain hair or like to live in jungle or naked. For me as you stated sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai. I am nobody to judge who is right or wrong.

Sahni Mohinder

Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

I did read your posts, all of them. As I mentioned in my posts that I am sure you must have read them, that, I am not here to judge what anyone's agenda is nor am I interested in that for my own learning process as a Sikh, a learner, a seeker.

I requested you to give your side of the interpretations of the Shabads given by Virinder ji and others whose interpretation you do not agree with which will give all of us a chance to learn from each other.

Isn't that the whole essence of Sikhi?

Secondly, in my opinion, if others do not keep their hair and call themselves Sikhs, I have no problems with that because IK ONG KAAR is our only judge.

On a lighter note, if some do not keep hair and call themselves Sikhs and some Baana wearing Sikhs object to that is like an argument on gay marriage. What I mean by that is that their short hair or no hair does not affect my path to seek IK ONG KAAR same as a gay couple does not affect my married life as a hetrosexual. I still remain henpecked.

As said in my previous post, I am waiting for your interpretation of the shabads so I can learn from them.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

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Dear Bhai Sahib,

The complete hymn you are referring comes in Raag Natt by Guru Ramdas does not fit in here;

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥

Baṇī gurū gurū hai baṇī vicẖ baṇī amriṯ sāre. Gur baṇī kahai sevak jan mānai parṯakẖ gurū nisṯāre.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Natt, AGGS, Page,982-11


Cordially,

Virinder

As i read the shabad the first time and read it again now in context, it perfectly fits in. The bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani.

I would like to here your take on this and also please tell me if you concur with the bottom post of mine

Bhai Sahib, the Tenth Nanak took Amrit himself from the Panj Pyare. There was never a time where Guru Sahib said only I need to do something and my Sikhs don't have too. Guru Sahib did something and he didn't expect any less from his Sikhs. As Sikhs fought in wars so did Guru Sahib. When I read history and how Bhai Jetha ji and Bhai Lehna ji recieved the Guruship from the previous Guru it amazes me. Due to their following of every word of Guru Sahib and doing as Guru Sahib did; there faith was tested and Bhai Jetha Ji and Bhai Lehna ji passed with flying colors.

Taking of Amrit is seen as a test of faith for me. Why would Guru Sahib expect anyless of me when he took amrit himself? Surely I am not at all higher than Guru Sahib. How can I become a Gurmukh when I don't even follow in Guru Sahib foot steps.

Thanks
Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Bhai Sahib,

We differ in the application of the hymn at the place you did, "so be it". To answer your question:

("How can I become a Gurmukh when I don't even follow in Guru Sahib foot steps.")

In my case I have posted it in so many posts about myself"

"I am still arrogant, self-righteous, with no humility, even phony at times, but trying to make an honest attempt to become a better person and help my fellow men. I may be one person in the world, but whom I help; I may be the world for him/her. Sikh way of life instills humility in me to serve a greater cause than myself. It reminds me of our common humanity and our essentials of equality in it and sees us through life’s trials.

It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help.
~Author Unknown
Guess, what I will never be a saint,(Gurmukh) but what ever I am I believe in accepting to humbly live under the Will of God considering myself lowest of the low.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਨੀਚੁ ਆਤਮ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਧਾਰਉ ॥
Sabẖṯė nīcẖ āṯam kar mān¬o man meh ih sukẖḏẖāra¬o.

I judge myself to be the lowest of all; in this way, I instill peace within my mind.
-----Guru Arjan Dev, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 532-2"

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dear Bhai Sahib,

We differ in the application of the hymn at the place you did, "so be it". To answer your question:

("How can I become a Gurmukh when I don't even follow in Guru Sahib foot steps.")

In my case I have posted it in so many posts about myself"

"I am still arrogant, self-righteous, with no humility, even phony at times, but trying to make an honest attempt to become a better person and help my fellow men. I may be one person in the world, but whom I help; I may be the world for him/her. Sikh way of life instills humility in me to serve a greater cause than myself. It reminds me of our common humanity and our essentials of equality in it and sees us through life’s trials.

It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help.
~Author Unknown
Guess, what I will never be a saint,(Gurmukh) but what ever I am I believe in accepting to humbly live under the Will of God considering myself lowest of the low.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਨੀਚੁ ਆਤਮ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਧਾਰਉ ॥
Sabẖṯė nīcẖ āṯam kar mān¬o man meh ih sukẖḏẖāra¬o.

I judge myself to be the lowest of all; in this way, I instill peace within my mind.
-----Guru Arjan Dev, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 532-2"

Cordially,

Virinder

Thanks for this, but what i was simply asking do you agree with this post that Guru Sahib never expected any less from us.....well here is the post again!

Bhai Sahib, the Tenth Nanak took Amrit himself from the Panj Pyare. There was never a time where Guru Sahib said only I need to do something and my Sikhs don't have too. Guru Sahib did something and he didn't expect any less from his Sikhs. As Sikhs fought in wars so did Guru Sahib. When I read history and how Bhai Jetha ji and Bhai Lehna ji recieved the Guruship from the previous Guru it amazes me. Due to their following of every word of Guru Sahib and doing as Guru Sahib did; there faith was tested and Bhai Jetha Ji and Bhai Lehna ji passed with flying colors.

Taking of Amrit is seen as a test of faith for me. Why would Guru Sahib expect anyless of me when he took amrit himself? Surely I am not at all higher than Guru Sahib. How can I become a Gurmukh when I don't even follow in Guru Sahib foot steps.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Khalsa Ji..

1.There is no doubt that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did take AMRIT ( Khnadeh batte Dee PAHUL ) from the Five Pyaaras..in PUBLIC..in front of the massive crowd of 80,000 in 1699 Anandpur Sahib's KESHGARH !!
All contemporary accounts mention this.

2. There is no doubt also that GURU GOBIND SINGH JI was GURU at that time...HE already had in Him the JYOT of Guru nanak Ji..and He also had the "AMRIT" of GURBANI inside HIM. This is the SAME "AMRIT" in SGGS that those....... opposed to Khandeh batte da Amrit --and by extension the long KESH/KIRPAN - (..interestingly they are not that opposed to Kacha - as it cant be seen...and the karra as it is not that difficult to wear..in fact many thousands of TAMILS in Malaysia wear karras these days !! The Kangha naturally goes with the KESH....so if no kesh.no kangha naturally...BUT Karra..all wear it proudly......) mention...and say it is "ENOUGH"..We have this "Gurbani amrit" that SGGS mentions..and we DONT NEED the OTHER AMRIT that the FIVE PYAARAS GIVE. Essentlialy saying...... the Five/their amrit... are superflous...not really necessary ???

Now the Multi Billion Dollar (or British Pound) question is...WHY did GURU GOBIND SINGH JI go down on Bended KNEE to chhakk AMRIT from the FIVE..in front of thousands..IF He already had the SGGS GURBANI AMRIT to OVERFLOWING ?? ( Remember He is GURU..Jyot of Guru Nanak..so its definite He has MORE GURBANI AMRIT than anyone else on this earth ever had)..WHY ?? Whats the REASON ?
Guru nanak ji Matha Tek to Bhai Lehna Ji and accepted Him as the successor Guru...Guru Gobind Singh ji could have Matha tek to SGGS and declared the next Guru in the same way...HE DIDNT. PAUSE..and PONDER...WHY did He go through the extended ceremony of the FIVE..the Amrit..the Chhaking..and then the Long period of nearly 8 years before finally leaving for Sachkhand with the SGGS as the Guru WITH the FIVE in attendance. The FIVE now perform the SAME CEREMONY that GURU GOBIND SINGH JI performed in 1699 !! IMHO..that AMRIT is just as Vital to a SIKH as is the Gurbani Amrit in SGGS. the two are COMPLIMENTARY.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Khalsa Ji..

1.There is no doubt that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did take AMRIT ( Khnadeh batte Dee PAHUL ) from the Five Pyaaras..in PUBLIC..in front of the massive crowd of 80,000 in 1699 Anandpur Sahib's KESHGARH !!
All contemporary accounts mention this.

2. There is no doubt also that GURU GOBIND SINGH JI was GURU at that time...HE already had in Him the JYOT of Guru nanak Ji..and He also had the "AMRIT" of GURBANI inside HIM. This is the SAME "AMRIT" in SGGS that those....... opposed to Khandeh batte da Amrit --and by extension the long KESH/KIRPAN - (..interestingly they are not that opposed to Kacha - as it cant be seen...and the karra as it is not that difficult to wear..in fact many thousands of TAMILS in Malaysia wear karras these days !! The Kangha naturally goes with the KESH....so if no kesh.no kangha naturally...BUT Karra..all wear it proudly......) mention...and say it is "ENOUGH"..We have this "Gurbani amrit" that SGGS mentions..and we DONT NEED the OTHER AMRIT that the FIVE PYAARAS GIVE. Essentlialy saying...... the Five/their amrit... are superflous...not really necessary ???

Now the Multi Billion Dollar (or British Pound) question is...WHY did GURU GOBIND SINGH JI go down on Bended KNEE to chhakk AMRIT from the FIVE..in front of thousands..IF He already had the SGGS GURBANI AMRIT to OVERFLOWING ?? ( Remember He is GURU..Jyot of Guru Nanak..so its definite He has MORE GURBANI AMRIT than anyone else on this earth ever had)..WHY ?? Whats the REASON ?
Guru nanak ji Matha Tek to Bhai Lehna Ji and accepted Him as the successor Guru...Guru Gobind Singh ji could have Matha tek to SGGS and declared the next Guru in the same way...HE DIDNT. PAUSE..and PONDER...WHY did He go through the extended ceremony of the FIVE..the Amrit..the Chhaking..and then the Long period of nearly 8 years before finally leaving for Sachkhand with the SGGS as the Guru WITH the FIVE in attendance. The FIVE now perform the SAME CEREMONY that GURU GOBIND SINGH JI performed in 1699 !! IMHO..that AMRIT is just as Vital to a SIKH as is the Gurbani Amrit in SGGS. the two are COMPLIMENTARY.

I agree with your post and was asking Mr. Grewal if he agree with what I said, but he becomes hesitant to answer.

Thanks you for this post.

Also to answer the questions:

WHY did GURU GOBIND SINGH JI go down on Bended KNEE to chhakk AMRIT from the FIVE..in front of thousands..IF He already had the SGGS GURBANI AMRIT to OVERFLOWING ??

As I see it to set an example that every Sikh should take Amrit as he took it.

.WHY did He go through the extended ceremony of the FIVE..the Amrit..the Chhaking..and then the Long period of nearly 8 years before finally leaving for Sachkhand with the SGGS as the Guru WITH the FIVE in attendance.

As to create the identity of a Sikh. Then the 8 long years to guide the Khalsa.

 

[kiram]

WHY did GURU GOBIND SINGH JI go down on Bended KNEE to chhakk AMRIT from the FIVE..in front of thousands..IF He already had the SGGS GURBANI AMRIT to OVERFLOWING ?? - Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji

Pure humility ji

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Exactly and aptly put Singh Ji.
Yes Kiram Ji..Humility..yes definitely..BUT more than that. After all the other 9 Gurus also matha tek to the successor "GURU"...but didnt ask anything in RETURN. Guru Nanak Ji didnt ask Guur Angad ji for "anything"....nor did the others until...Guru Gobind Singh ji and the Khalsa..... In this case Guru ji had a REQUEST from the PAANJ that He required fulfilled..a Strictly ONE WAY ROAD from 1469-1699 was to become a TWO WAY MULTIPLE LANE HIGHWAY. This is no mean feat..its a major revolution of sorts.
1. One Human Guur is replaced by a GROUP of FIVE under the TABIAH of SGGS. The SGGS is sealed shut to any alterations/additions..BUT the FIVE have the Moral Authority to make and amend changes etc that are IN LINE with the SGGS. Previously BOTH resided in the Same ONE GURU...but not after 1699....then on its SGGS and the Guru Khalsa Panth Panj Pyaras combination.

IF our Guur ji had also left us with just "Granth GURU"....we might have ended up like the Kabir Panthis....who have a Granth of Kabir Ji but not much else...they are all pretty much reabsorbed back into Hinduism and just a sub-sect. The SGGS has so many willing "academics" and well placed persons..sants..babas..granthis..gyanis..parcharaks..kathwachaks...who.."SPEAK FOR THE GURU !!!" Each one claims..THIS IS WHAT THE SGGS MEANS...listen to ME..I KNOW the Gurbani Tuk means THIS..and nothing else !! THEY SPEAK FOR THE SGGS !! Since the SGGS is "SILENT"...its perfect opportunity to speak on HIS BEHALF..SGGS is not going to get up and say..Hey thats not what I mean ??....Thats why we have so many varied translations..various meanings..a free for all scenario..
THis is why the Guru Khalsa Panth PANJ SYSTEM was also set up and shown to be "not just a decoration" by GURU JI HIMSELF bending down before them to receive AMRIT that ONLY the FIVE can bestow...no one else...no matter how "well" he can make the SGGS speak his language !!:welcome:

 

[japjisahib04]

ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥ ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਿਤਾ੍ਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥

Kaha Bhaeo Douo Lochan Moondkay Baith Rehio Bak Dhayan Lagaio, Baas Keo Bikhian Se Baith Ke Ais So Bais Bataio,Saach Kahou Sun Leh Sabhai Jin Prem Kio Tin He Prabh Paio.Kaho Lai Paahan Pooj Dharo Sir Kaho Lai Ling Latkaio. Kaho Lakhio Har Avchari Disa Mai Kaho Pacha Ko Sis Nivaio. Kouo Butaan Kaou Poojat Hai Paso Kaou Mitan Kaou Poojan Dhaio. Koor Kiria Ourjhio Sabh Jag Siri Bhagvan Ko Bhed Na Paeio.

What if you close your eyes and sit in meditation like a crane/heron; take ablutions in the seven seas- but this way you loose both this world and the next; if one continues to indulge in sinful things, he wastes his life; Let all listen to the truth I proclaim- only he who loves attains the God. Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize God in the south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G. Page, 14-15

Virinder

Virinder Ji,
Author of above pankties are Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I think usage and acceptance of above pankties by you in order to justify, answer the question raised by your earlier, ' My point basically is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji has enough time and authority to add page 1431 making these things mandatory for every Sikh but unfortunately he did not'. When Guru Sahib didn't add above saviewh in SGGS which are part of amrit chakna then it is justified why Guru sahib didn't add mandatory amrit chakhna in SGGS and we should not raise question on it.

Virinder Ji, I don't know you personally neither have seen or know whether being a sikh you maintain turban or not. Only from your writing I know you are well known retired doctor with lot of knowledge on gurubani. Here I would like to mention wedding and departure of doli scene picturerize by Guru Sahib in Kirtan sohila, 'sambhat sah likhiya mil kar pavoh tail, deh sajan assidiya hovaih saheb so mail, ghar ghar eho pahuncha sadhdey nit pavan sadhanhara simriya ... when the brides reaches her in laws and her beloved looks at her and upon finding her hair missing and raise very first question where she left the hair gift given to her during the transit period and upon finding Him upset she tells her honey I didn't find any usage of hair so I removed and threw it away(like it was packing material) but don 't worry, I have done lot of good deeds, like treated many patients free, am honest, have good heart, have written many articles on Guru sabd. You just tell me will this count. This reminded me a pankti from SGGS which tells like this, 'bhandha dhovaih kaun jee kaccha saajia .. bhandha arngh raas ja tis bhavsi SGGS 1411.11, when the bandha itself is damaged or kachha how will it carry anything.

One Hindu guru preacher who comes on TV is highly educated and gives his sermon in English in a very effective away but the stage where he sits has many photos of devi devta. I raised this question to him, he said sardar ji Hindus mind is so much ingrained with idolatry that if I don't keep them who will call me to give my sermon.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear All,


With due respect to all of you, mu take with all of you is that your attitude is confrontation with Non-Khalsa being arrogant and no humility.

Love begets love not hate. You want your feelings to be respected-respect others. It will come back to you automatically. Let there be not two standards that others religions symbols are not as spiritual/ritualistic then yours. IMHO Guru today would have said the same thing as he did to Brahmins and Muslims and i.e. why Guru Gobind Sing did not add the third page.

Let every individual try to understand his own God in Him/Her self. Let the veil of Haomai be raised. All of you keep on talking more of baptism and turban etc but I have not seen any humility. All of you should show the same humility as shown by the 10th Master.

Spirituality is being misunderstood-I will be posting my views on that subject.

Let us love and respect each other.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dear All,


With due respect to all of you, mu take with all of you is that your attitude is confrontation with Non-Khalsa being arrogant and no humility.

Love begets love not hate. You want your feelings to be respected-respect others. It will come back to you automatically. Let there be not two standards that others religions symbols are not as spiritual/ritualistic then yours. IMHO Guru today would have said the same thing as he did to Brahmins and Muslims and i.e. why Guru Gobind Sing did not add the third page.

Let every individual try to understand his own God in Him/Her self. Let the veil of Haomai be raised. All of you keep on talking more of baptism and turban etc but I have not seen any humility. All of you should show the same humility as shown by the 10th Master.

Spirituality is being misunderstood-I will be posting my views on that subject.

Let us love and respect each other.

Cordially,

Virinder

IMHO Guru today would have said the same thing as he did to Brahmins and Muslims and i.e. why Guru Gobind Sing did not add the third page.

The Brahmins had no one and the same goes for the Muslims; all they had was their scripture. Did they have the Panj Pyare; Guru Khalsa to lead. They had Brahmins that mislead the people to start worshipping idols, same with Muslims they worship a rock at Mecca, they mislead the Muslims.

The Tenth Nanak left Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and then the Panj Pyare as the rulers to make decision when need that aline with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Here is the Hukam that the Tenth Nanak issued:

With the directive of the Almighty, initiated is the Panth. All the Sikhs are decreed to acknowledge Granth as Guru. Believing in Khalsa, epitomises the Guru as corporeal. Sikhs desirous to achieve me, (may) search in them.

All of you keep on talking more of baptism and turban etc but I have not seen any humility. All of you should show the same humility as shown by the 10th Master.

As many members are told to present there side and everyone is treated equally here, so I'm ask you where do I show egotistical behaviour. If following Guru Sahib Hukam is egotistical then I'm guilty as charged, what is my punishment.

Also in the same notion then I can say all you do is talk about why didn't Guru Sahib add his Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji when he added Guru Teg Bahadurs Sahib ji's Bani, I have not seen any humility. You should show the same humility and realize the Tenth Master took amrit to set an example, that every Sikh should take Amrit. One difference here, you speak of what should have happened based on your intellect, and I speak of what did happen.

Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Singh Ji,

I have posted 160+ responses on this forum, please go and read in the archives-including humility and Sikh Symbols. At least I put my name on all and I do not know with whom I am debating out of millions of Sikhs & non Sikh Singhs and for what? Let us end this debate-you be happy with your views and agree to disagree.
Thanks for your interaction.
Regards.
Virinder

 

[Archived_Member4]

At least I put my name on all and I do not know with whom I am debating out of millions of Sikhs & non Sikh Singhs and for what?

Your Speaking with Singh. Also this at least phrase is a plea bargain to say I do this much. Do you call this Humility!!!

Let us end this debate-you be happy with your views and agree to disagree.
Thanks for your interaction.

The only reason why you want to agree to disagree is because you have nothing else to say. The flaw in your agruement has been pointed out and your speechless, so you go to your last resort and say let's agree to disagree. Well, not too fast, if you got anything else to say then say it otherwise its clear what just happened here!!!

 

[sadhu]

singh ji

With the directive of the Almighty, initiated is the Panth. All the Sikhs are decreed to acknowledge Granth as Guru. Believing in Khalsa, epitomises the Guru as corporeal. Sikhs desirous to achieve me, (may) search in them.

where did you find these lines ?,.,.,. who wrote them?,.,.,.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Singh Ji,

Humility is thinking of your self less.

>Fullness of knowledge always and necessarily means some understanding of our ignorance that is always conducive to both humility and reverence.
>Plenty of people wish to become devout but no one wishes to be humble.

ਬੁਧ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਖਰਚੁ ਲੈਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖ ਜਾਰਹੁ॥ ਸਾਚਾ ਹਟੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਉਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਾਪਾਰਹੁ ॥

Budh Gareebee Kharch Lai-oh Haumai Bikh Jaaroh, Saachaa Hat Pooraa Sa-udaa Vakhar Naam Vaapaarahu.

Take wisdom and humility as your supplies, and burn away the poison of pride. True is that shop, and perfect the transaction; deal only in the merchandise of the Naam, the Name of the Akal Purkh. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 399-9

>Humility is the only true wisdom by which we prepare our minds for all possible changes of life.

>Pride is concerned with who is right; humility is concerned with what is right.

>Humility leads to strength and not to weakness. It is the highest form of self-respect to admit mistakes and to make amends for them.

>Humility is the most difficult of all virtues to achieve; nothing dies harder than the desire think well of self.

ਗਰੀਬੀ ਗਦਾ ਹਮਾਰੀ॥ ਖੰਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਨ ਛਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਵੇਕਾਰੀ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਏਹ ਗਲ ਸਾਰੀ॥

Gareebee Gadda Hamaree, Khanna Sagal Rayn Chaari, Iss Aagai Ko Na Tikai Vaykaaree,Gur Pooray Ayh Gal Saaree.

Humility is my mace, and being the dust of the dust of all men’s feet is my two edged sword, which no evildoer can withstand. The matter has been arranged by the perfect Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 628-13


I let you win the debate by following Guru Nanak's message in Raag Majh;

ਭੰਉਕੈ ਕੋਪੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਫਕੜੁ ਪਿਟੇ ਅੰਧੁ ॥ ਚੁਪੈ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਗੰਧੁ ॥

Bẖaʼnukai kop kẖu¬ār ho¬ė fakaṛ pitė anḏẖ. Cẖupai cẖanga nānkā viṇ nāvai muhi ganḏẖ.

Anger barks and brings ruin on itself, blindly pursuing useless conflicts. It is good to be silent, O, Nanak; without the Name, one's mouth spews forth only filth.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1288-13

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਝਖਣਾ ਦੁਖ ਛਡਿ ਮੰਗੀਅਹਿ ਸੁਖ ॥ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਿ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਮਨੁਖ ॥ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥

Nānak bolaṇ jẖakẖ¬ṇā ḏukẖ cẖẖad mangī¬ah sukẖ. Sukẖ ḏukẖ ḏu¬ė ḏar kapṛė pahirahi jā¬ė manukẖ. Jithai bolaṇ hārī¬ai ṯithai cẖangī cẖup.

O Nanak, it is absurd to ask to be spared from pain by begging for comfort. Pleasure and pain are the two garments given, to be worn in the Court of the Akal Purkh. Where you are bound to lose by speaking, there, you ought to remain silent.

Pauree:​

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅੰਦਰੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਸਚੈ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਅਲਖਿ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਉਝੜਿ ਭੁਲੇ ਰਾਹ ਗੁਰਿ ਵੇਖਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਚੇ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਪਾਇਆ ਰਤਨੁ ਘਰਾਹੁ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ਸੁਖੀਏ ਸਚ ਵਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਨਿਡਰਿਆ ਡਰੁ ਲਗਿ ਗਰਬਿ ਸਿ ਗਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਵਹੁ ਭੁਲਾ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥੨੪॥

Cẖārė kundā ḏėkẖ anḏar bẖāli­ā. Sacẖai purakẖ alakẖ siraj nihāli­ā. Ujẖaṛ bẖulė rāh gur vėkẖāli­ā. Saṯgur sacẖė vāhu sacẖ samāli­ā. Pā­i­ā raṯan gẖarāhu ḏīvā bāli­ā. Sacẖai sabaḏ salāhi sukẖī­ė sacẖ vāli­ā. Nidri­ā dar lag garab se gāli­ā. Nāvhu bẖulā jag firai bėṯāli­ā.

After looking around in the four directions, I looked within my own self. There, I saw the True, Invisible Creator. I was wandering in the wilderness, but now the Guru has shown me the Way.
Hail to the True Guru, through whom we merge in the Truth. I have found the jewel within the home of my own self; the lamp within has been lit. Those who praise the True Word of the Sabd, abide in the peace of Truth. But those who do not have the Fear of God are overtaken by fear. They are destroyed by their own pride. Having forgotten the Name, the world is roaming around like a wild demon. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 149

Then you refer to;

Rattan Singh Bhangu, a historian records his feelings towards AGGS as under, about 100 + years after the death of Guru Gobind Singh, which has become a Sabd by ignorant tradition.
Ratan Singh Bhangu (d. 1846) - a descendant of Mahtab Singh (who had, along with young Sukha Singh, assassinated Massa Ranghar, the tyrannical Zakariya Khan’s deputy, in 1740, as punishment for desecrating the precincts of Harimandir Sahib) wrote the following, which Sikh rabble think to be written by 10th Master;

ਆਗਿਆਭਈਅਕਾਲਕੀਤਬੀਚਲਾਇਓਪੰਥ।
ਸਭਸਿਖਨਕੋਹੁਕਮਹੈਗੁਰੂਮਾਨਿਯੋਗ੍ਰੰਥ।
ਗੁਰੂਗ੍ਰੰਥਜੀਮਾਨਿਯੋਪ੍ਗਟਗੁਰਾਂਕੀਦੇਹ।
ਜੋਪ੍ਭਕੋਮਿਲਬੋਚਹੈਖੋਜਸ਼ਬਦਮੈਂਲੇਹ। -----Ref ਪੰਥਪਰਕਾਸ਼ (Panth Parkash)

Aagia Bhaee Akal Ki Tabi Chalaeo Panth.
Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manio Granth.
Guru Granth Ji Maneo Pargat Guran Ki Deh.
Jo Prabh Ko Milbo Chahai Khoj Sabd Main Leh.

The above reference is given in the book “Safarnama & Zafarnama” by Giani Ishwar Singh Nara and translated in to English by Joginder Singh M. A. Page, 280.

Have a good day.

Debate ends.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
virindergrewal@cablespeed.com
517-992-9134
Williamston, MI