God = The Universe?

[Charan]

According to Sikhism, is it ok to interpret God as the universe itself?
If yes, then why do we as Sikhs talk about the creation of the universe?

All answers appreciated.

Charan 8)

 

[Seeker9]

Dear Charan Ji

It's late and I'm tired and this will probably be a poor analogy but I will give it a shot anyway!

The dancer can have a number of dances....

When HE starts dancing, is it possible to separate the Dancer from the dance?

I will develop this further tomorrow!

 

[Charan]

Dear Charan Ji

It's late and I'm tired and this will probably be a poor analogy but I will give it a shot anyway!

The dancer can have a number of dances....

When HE starts dancing, is it possible to separate the Dancer from the dance?

I will develop this further tomorrow!

Thanks for answering.

Yes, i understand, God resides in all his creations. But then why do we say God was never created? When there was nothing, was that nothing God as well? Then that nothing becomes something if its God, but if nothing is nothing, then God must have been created at some point. Of course, not by anyone else but by himself. *Not stating a point, just asking.


Sorry if my questions are stupid, I am just a tiny bit confused.

 

[Bahadar S]

Dear Charan Ji

God has always existed he created himself to his own liking, and assumed his name. For countless ages there was pure darkness and the Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam,and when he wanted to he projected himself and created the Universes and created souls from himself thats how we came to be ,and the entire point of human life is to become one with that Lord again so we will never be seperated. Its difficult to describe but the Universe is in God and God is the Universe.Let me know if i made mistake

 

[Charan]

Dear Charan Ji

God has always existed he created himself to his own liking, and assumed his name. For countless ages there was pure darkness and the Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam,and when he wanted to he projected himself and created the Universes and created souls from himself thats how we came to be ,and the entire point of human life is to become one with that Lord again so we will never be seperated. Its difficult to describe but the Universe is in God and God is the Universe.Let me know if i made mistake

Thanks for answering Bahadar ji.

I think I understand what you are saying, but this is what confuses me:

God has always existed he created himself ...

How can he be eternal and at the same time be created?

And also, you say

Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam

what do you mean by this?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Charan ji,
Bahadur ji has given you what is enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Page 250, Line 9

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਓਅੰ ਸਾਧ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ ॥
ओअं साध सतिगुर नमसकारं ॥
O▫aʼn sāḏẖ saṯgur namaskāraʼn.
ONG: I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru.
ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੰ ॥
आदि मधि अंति निरंकारं ॥
Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ niraʼnkāraʼn.
In the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, He is the Formless Lord.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਖ ਆਸਨ ॥
आपहि सुंन आपहि सुख आसन ॥
Āpėh sunn āpėh sukẖ āsan.
He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of peace.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥
आपहि सुनत आप ही जासन ॥
Āpėh sunaṯ āp hī jāsan.
He Himself listens to His Own Praises.
ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥
आपन आपु आपहि उपाइओ ॥
Āpan āp āpėh upā▫i▫o.
He Himself created Himself.
ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥
आपहि बाप आप ही माइओ ॥
Āpėh bāp āp hī mā▫i▫o.
He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥
आपहि सूखम आपहि असथूला ॥
Āpėh sūkẖam āpėh asthūlā.
He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious.
ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥
लखी न जाई नानक लीला ॥१॥
Lakẖī na jā▫ī Nānak līlā. ||1||
O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1||

That was an echo of what Guru Nanak Devji had said earlier.

Page 463, Line 4

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ ॥
आपीन्है आपु साजिओ आपीन्है रचिओ नाउ ॥
Āpīnĥai āp sāji▫o āpīnĥai racẖi▫o nā▫o.
He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name.
ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥
दुयी कुदरति साजीऐ करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥
Ḏuyī kuḏraṯ sājī▫ai kar āsaṇ diṯẖo cẖā▫o.
Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.
ਦਾਤਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਸਿ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
दाता करता आपि तूं तुसि देवहि करहि पसाउ ॥
Ḏāṯā karṯā āp ṯūʼn ṯus ḏevėh karahi pasā▫o.
You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.
ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੋਈ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇ ਲੈਸਹਿ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
तूं जाणोई सभसै दे लैसहि जिंदु कवाउ ॥
Ŧūʼn jāṇo▫ī sabẖsai ḏe laisahi jinḏ kavā▫o.
You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.
ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥੧॥
करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥१॥
Kar āsaṇ diṯẖo cẖā▫o. ||1||
Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||

As per the Hindu tradition in general Ishvar sits in meditation, absorbed in himself. When he dances the world comes into being. When he stops dancing the world comes to an end, restarting the whole process, in an infinite cycle of creation, preservation and destruction. A very similar idea exists in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
Its metaphorical , poetic language.
For example, in Vishishtadvaita Vedanta creation is described through human procreation as a metaphor.

...or you can view it as an attempt of man to understand the cosmos. I won't tell you what to make of it.

And you are quite right to point out "eternal vs self-created" contradiction. It might have to do with the cyclical nature or samsara nature of the cosmos (no begining no end but cyclical, again as per Hindu tradition) but not too sure. I await responses from other members on this one.

One may choose to believe God = Universe but according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. God is much greater than the universe but his presence is found in every part of the universe, its not pantheistic "all = God", its pan-EN-theistic "all within God". Thus everyone has an essence of God, leading to the notion of equality among races, gender, sex, etc that is found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Charan ji,

As I see it Sikhi is panentheistic and monotheistic.

Pantheistic belief says that the universe is God.

PanENtheistic belief says that that God is both the universe and also "bigger" than the universe.

In other words, panENtheism says not that the universe = God, but that the Universe is in God. Think about this. I believe it will answer most of your questions here - and probably raise some new ones.

 

[Charan]

Thank you so much Bhagat Singh ji for your answer, and Mai ji, thank you as well. So God is not only the universe, but that plus everything else… that makes sense 8) Can one say that God is the existence itself then? Things are a bit clearer now, but I’m still confused about the question about eternal vs. self-created … Maybe someone else can put some light on that question. Anyway, appreciate your contribution.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Charan ji,

I hope this doesn't irritate you. I try not to get esoteric in my answers, but the answer to your "self-created vs. eternal" will probably sound a bit weird.

Both "self-created" and "eternal" are time-dependent. Time is an artifact of Maya in the form of the spacetime continuum. If you step outside of Maya into timelessness, the contradiction disappears. I cannot really explain that; I think it may be one of those things that must be experienced for oneself.

Remain in chardi kala!icecreamkaur

 

[Charan]

Charan ji,

I hope this doesn't irritate you. I try not to get esoteric in my answers, but the answer to your "self-created vs. eternal" will probably sound a bit weird.

Both "self-created" and "eternal" are time-dependent. Time is an artifact of Maya in the form of the spacetime continuum. If you step outside of Maya into timelessness, the contradiction disappears. I cannot really explain that; I think it may be one of those things that must be experienced for oneself.

Remain in chardi kala!icecreamkaur

Wow, that’s deep. Mai ji, it does not irritate me at all, but I have to admit that I find it very difficult to fully understand your statement. I get stuck at the timelessness part, it’s difficult for me to even imagine what that is. As my philosophy teacher once said, think till your head hurts! So maybe, hopefully, I’ll get it if I think hard enough 8)

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Wow, that’s deep. Mai ji, it does not irritate me at all, but I have to admit that I find it very difficult to fully understand your statement. I get stuck at the timelessness part, it’s difficult for me to even imagine what that is. As my philosophy teacher once said, think till your head hurts! So maybe, hopefully, I’ll get it if I think hard enough 8)

I have the advantage of having died and experienced timelessness. I do not suggest you take this route. It is a bit extreme.

I would also suggest not too much thinking; that'll give you a headache, for sure, but little else. I actually suggest Naam-jap, but that really needs to be done for its own sake without an goal in mind.

I wrote a blogpost about time a while back which you might find interesting and you might just find confusing. Time is inherently weird and confusing. Anyway, feel free to take a peak. A brief, er, Short History of Time.

Happy searching! icecreamkaur

 

[Charan]

I have the advantage of having died and experienced timelessness. I do not suggest you take this route. It is a bit extreme.

Mai ji... huh? :{-

I would also suggest not too much thinking; that'll give you a headache, for sure, but little else. I actually suggest Naam-jap, but that really needs to be done for its own sake without an goal in mind.

<?"urn:

<v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" oreferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> 8)</v:shapetype>
Happy searching! icecreamkaur


Searching for what? :tongue:

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Mai ji... Huh?




Yes, I guess I’ll understand it when it’s His will.




What you write about time is indeed very interesting. Although I probably didn’t understand all of it, it sure made me think.8)


Searching for what? :tongue:

I didn't understand half of what I wrote about time. (BTW, I just now updated that post. I am now in the time machine and there are YouTube links to the songs.)


Searching for whatever it is the Hukam of Vawheguru that you find, of course!cheerleader


Now go do some jap-naam. It's good for the soul and probably the waistline.

 

[Charan]

I didn't understand half of what I wrote about time. (BTW, I just now updated that post. I am now in the time machine and there are YouTube links to the songs.)


Searching for whatever it is the Hukam of Vawheguru that you find, of course!cheerleader


Now go do some jap-naam. It's good for the soul and probably the waistline.

Ah, sorry about that messy text. For some reason i can't seem to get up all of what i wrote.

Anyway, that time machine picture of yours is SO COOL!

Oh, i didn't notice the songs. Let me quickly take a look before I go do some Naam-jap. Thanks for thinking about my soul... and waistline, hahah.


BUT MAI Ji, you didnt explain the part about you dying? That is what huh? :{- was for...

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Charan ji

BUT MAI Ji, you didnt explain the part about you dying? That is what huh?

was for...

Actually I have died - flat-lined 5 times in this life. I know that's extreme, but I gave up being normal a long time ago.

The most significant deaths came on 26-27 April 2006 when I had a major/massive stroke and died two times in one night. I guess I was only dead for a very few minutes here, but I lived what seemed like several lifetimes there. Of course, it's hard to convey where there is no time; I do the best I can. I really am not comfortable discussing this in an international forum where the whole world can read it. If you send me a PM, I'll try to answer your questions personally.

I will say this: Dying is not a bit scary. And I really didn't want to come back.

Before you get excited, I make an observation: Nobody really knows what an NDE (Near Death Experience) really is.
Is it real (whatever that means)? Is it hallucination? Is it merely the wild imaginations of a brain starved for oxygen? I have no idea. It was/is all very real to me, but my subjective experience is just that. One dead woman's subjective experience.

BTW, overcoming the fear of death makes life much, much more interesting and enjoyable.