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Opinion Equality & Inequality

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by IJSingh, Aug 15, 2016.

  1. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh
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    We should be careful I think about welcoming more control and oversight by a quasi-judicial akal takht. We don't know where it will lead to, recently in the panjab the sgpc excluded sehajdhari Sikhs from elections. The adoption of legalese measures and the exploitation of said legal infrastructure has led to the current political - religious power nexus that is afflicting sikhi today.
     
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  2. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur United Kingdom
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    Well right now shunning that code of conduct / control has directly resulted in:

    - interfaith anand karaj - and serious protests at weddings. There is not only the SRM on this but a hukamnama issued in 2007 by Akal Takht. Do we keep anand Karaj / lavaans for those who follow Sikhi or allow anyone? (Remembering the lavaans describe the spiritual progression towards Waheguru and not even the married life of the couple so it's a commitment the couple make to have SGGSJ be the centrenof their lives together).

    - women being treated inferior. What's the point of writing down panthic decision that women should be treated equally if it's only a guideline and Gurdwaras can do whatever they want? The misogynistic feelings of many pervade the panth still (most likely due to cultural influence) and if they are given a choice will continue to marginalize women's participation in Sikhi. A good example was the Toronto Nagar Kirtan this year when female flag bearers were kicked out of the parade by force (after receiving blessing from Panj Pyaras to be there) because the parade marshalls felt that 'girls can't do that' and even called the police to remove them. The police again were told 'this position is not for women. Only men can do it' They forced the girls away from being anywhere near SGGSJ. So that SGGSJ was surrounded by / escorted by only Singh's and no Kaurs. Other examples are refusal to allow women to do seva as kirtanis, granthi, some don't even allow women to participate in AKhand paths. And of course the big one. 'No woman' can do seva as Panj Pyaras even if they give their head same as any singh when they take Amrit. If code of conduct is followed there is no question as it explicitly says that women and men can both do all seva including as Panj Pyaras. SGGSJ of course tells us every human is equal however it's obviously not enough for some.

    - there are other conduct issues as well in SRM pertaining to how SGGSJ should be housed, refraining from Hindu rituals, etc and yes some deras have crept in those Hindu rituals into their Gurdwaras.
     
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  3. sukhsingh

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    As I have mentioned I believe protests about so called Interfaith marriages to be outrageous. However, I totally agree misogyny has no place in sikhi.
     
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  4. Harkiran Kaur

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    The reason they are against interfaith anand karaj (not interfaith marriages as the couple can always do court marriage) is that the lavans (read them for yourself) speak of the soul's journey to Waheguru. During the lavans you mathatek to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and you make a commitment together as a couple to make Guru Granth Sahib Ji the center of your married life together.

    Now if one partner was not following Sikhi, but some other religion, then how can they mathatek to SGGSJ, make a commitment to have SGGSJ be centre of their married life, and then forget all about it as soon as they leave the Gurdwara? Wouldn't that be a farce and disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

    It would be like taking your Hindu friend along to Amrit Sanchar, and saying ok you can go through the whole ceremony and then just forget about it once you leave the Gurdwara. It's ok right? Anand Karaj and Amrit Sanchar are two equally important events in a Sikh's life. (sorry, not sure what to call us now because the Christian Sikhs obviously don't have to nor the Muslim Sikhs etc. you know what I mean, followers of Sikhi). They are considered sacraments not just a cultural ceremony.

    I hope that makes it somewhat more clear.
     
  5. sukhsingh

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    Surely if someone matheteks to sggsj they are demonstrating obsequious to sggsj. What would you have them do?
     
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  6. sukhsingh

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    And the problem is only a issue when the girl is panjabi not the boy. Doesn't really sit well with bringing equality in to the gurdwara?
     
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  7. Harkiran Kaur

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    How does it matter which partner is Sikh? If a Sikh woman marries a Hindu man and that Hindu man mathateks to SGGSJ during he lavaans meaning he is agreeing to follow Gurbani and make SGGSJ the centre of their married life, but then go and completely forget that commitment he agreed to in front of Guru Ji? Same scenario if it's a Sikh boy and Hindu girl. In fact this is why SRM states it's better for a Sikh to marry a Sikh. (By Sikh I mean follower of Sikhi). I am not against interfaith marriage, I'm only against interfaith anand Karaj. They can always have a secular marriage. But how can one make a commitment in front of our Guru when they don't mean it or it's just for show?? It's same feeling as if you suggest taking someone to do Amrit sanchar how has no intentions to follow the commitment made during Amrit sanchar. It just makes it a farce.

    And no the mathatek during anand Karaj is not just obsequious its acknowledgement that the couple agrees and makes the commitment to the Guru that they will follow Sikhi and put SGGSJ at the centre of their married lives. They can't do that and then have Hindu idols in the house for example. How is that making SGGSJ centre of their lives?
     
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  8. sukhsingh

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    Very interesting
     
  9. sukhsingh

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    I think most of what you have wrote here is not only scary but ultimately ridiculous.
     
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  10. sukhsingh

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    Its not me who has a problem, but I believe the hukumnama from Akal Takht (I've never actually seen it)
     
  11. sukhsingh

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    Could you please point me in the direction of this research please
     
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  12. Harkiran Kaur

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    Here it is... It's not directed at only one gender...

    Original text in English (scanned copy attached of original in Punjabi):

    Giani Joginder Singh, Jethadar
    Date: 16-8-2007

    anand Sanskar
    " Marriage Ceremony"

    This is a message to all the Sikh Sangat that according to the Rehat Maryada only Sikh couples (male/female) can engage in the anand Karaj Ceremony. If the couple or either one of them is not a Sikh, then they must embrace the Sikh faith. This includes that they must change their second name to Singh or Kaur in their official document before the Marriage Ceremony.(e.g. driving licence, identity card, passport).
    (signed)
    (Joginder Singh)
    Jethadar


    [​IMG]
     
  13. sukhsingh

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    So anand karaj is only open to those who have taken amrit. Some hindu Rajputs have the name singh would they be allowed to marry a 'kaur'?
     
  14. Harkiran Kaur

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    It doesn't say they have to be Amritdhari. But the idea behind the name change is that someone like me... I was born in Christianity, a gori. They want to know that I am taking Sikhi and anand Karaj seriously so those commitments I'd be making were true and not just for show and then dump them as soon as I left the gurdwara. It's less worrisome for someone born in a Sikh family to prove they are following Sikhi. But all Sikhs should not be using surname anyway. Anyway I had to change my name prior to the marriage and have that show on my passport prior to the anand Karaj in India (which was at a historical Gurdwara).
     
  15. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Qatar
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    What of the millions of Brown 'Sikh' women and men who do Anand Karaj in the morning and get smashed off their faces at the reception party in the evening?

    And you being a 'gori' shouldn't have anything to do with anything. Truth is Truth and is nondiscriminatory towards caste and creed because the reality is that we have no caste or creed. Ik Oankar.
     
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    #35 Sikhilove, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  16. sukhsingh

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    My brother was married at a historical gurdwara (sukhchain sahib, 6th master phagwara) to his 'gori' wife nearly 20 years ago. Neither was she required to change her name nor any one flinch. This whole thing is a modern concoction.
     
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  17. sukhsingh

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    Whilst I totally respect you for your decision to take amrit sanchar and change your name, I personally do not see it as a prerequisite to anand karaj. Moreover if someone tells others (in your instance you said you had to change your name prior to marriage) that it is then as far as I am concerned it amounts to something similar to forced conversion.

    All of this to me is anathema to the sikh way,
     
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  18. Harkiran Kaur

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    It was explained to me that at least by changing your name, you are showing you are at least serious about following Sikhi. After all, anand karaj is on the same level as amrit sanchar.

    And yes, anyone who does anand karaj (putting Guru as centre of their lives) and then going to get smashed is HUGE wrong. It's their own spiritual path that will be affected. Intoxicants are spoken against in gurbani. At least Amritdhari don't go near alcohol.

    But still the hukamnama can't be just blatantly ignored.
     
  19. Harkiran Kaur

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    No forced conversion would be forcing someone to follow Sikhi. I chose that on my own long before.
    Sure we could have done a court marriage and that was it, but as an Amritdhari, anand karaj is the only accepted way of marriage.
     
  20. sukhsingh

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    anand karaj is no only open to amritdari Sikhs and and millions of sikh people have been married without ever taking amrit sanchar
     
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