Don't Turn Down God

[Tejwant Singh]

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh. Very well said and explained. No one could have done a better job. Your Gurmat vision and love for Ik Ong kaar is nitidly visible and commendable.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth.

As I have mentioned many times before that for me Moolmanter is the benchmark and blue print of Sikhi. All Gurbani revolves around Moolmanter. If we interpret anything that contradicts the concept expressed by Guru Nanak in the Moolmanter then it our understanding of Gurbani that is flawed and we should look into it again and again. After all we are all Sikhs- learners and it is our duty to do so.

Now some may disagree with what I mentioned above, which is OK but it does not give them the right to impose their own way of thinking rather expressing it which is a true essence of Gurmat Vichaar.Our Gurus talk to all of us not just to those who want to impose their views because they claim that theirs is the only right one.

One thing I hope we can agree upon that our Gurus have not mentioned anything that they wrote or added from other people in SGGS which would contradict Mool manter.

The fact mentioned by Guru Nanak in the Moolmanter is that Ik Ong Kaar is Nirbhau and Nirvair, which means all loving with no strings attached. Not a punisher, vengeful God who throws us in literal hell when angry. This is the main difference between Sikhi and the Semitic religions and Hinduism.

I totally agree with Mahanbir ji in that matter. Love is the only answer in SGGS.

Yes, Gurbani does say as you have mentioned beautifully above about that Ik Ong Kaar is all powerful.It is the acceptance of His power in the beautiful poetry written by our Gurus, but we also know that cows are not created by Him/Her/It to eat meat and lions to eat grass. We have to accept that fact too.That is the beauty of this poetry but as our language is very limited, the description, praise and power of Ik Ong Kaar can not be described in words no matter how much we try.

Animals have been given the instinct by Ik Ong Kaar to survive. You are right when you say they can not sow and reap. That trait has been bestowed upon us humans with the help of intellect which gives us the choice. So it is our duty as humans to make the right choice. Gurbani gives us the tools. Gurbani acts as a catalyst so we can channelise the Energy to breed goodness within and evolve so that we can become better. Animals have already been created better in that sense.

I will talk about other things mentioned in the post a bit later.

Once again, thanks for your insights. This is the only way many can pitch in and savour and relish the flavour, and soul food that Gurbani brings.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

Dear Sangat Ji
After reading a few posts, it’s amazing to see why Absolute Lord’s being Nirvair or not is being debated.
What I say or other say about Nirvair Akalpurakh is not the issue. That is not the issue at all. Who called Him Nirvair(Guru Nanak) is very well aware of this fact even when he expresses His immense power over His creation and His justice system( Aasa Dee Vaar).
The issue is that Guru Nanak is questioned and questioned without understanding him. The questioning of Guru Nanak is very crystal clear

The issue is Mahabir Singh Ji’s questioning of Guru Nanak’s Guru Vaak where Guru Nanak says that under His Justice system, kings are reduced to nothing, according to Mahabir Singh, God is not as Guru Nanak describes Him as scary who dethrones kings, if his post is read, this is the thing, I have made an issue and kept telling him that Guru Nanak is saying these things in different context and His God is of course Nirvair.
I have never tried to define God as other than Nirvair so on what commentary is going on? Issue is to defend Guru Nanak’s concept where Mahabir Singh ji questions Guru Nanak without understanding Guru Nanak’s concept of God and his Ordinance (Hukam)
The irony of all this is that Mahabir Singh is eager to understand those Guru Vaakas of Guru Nanak to clear any doubt ( As per his PM)and here to my surprise another music is being played !!!
It’s sad that Guru is questioned and we are debating which is not the Issue (at least I feel in context of Guru Ji). In Assa Dee Var, Guru Nanak makes very well clear how through His own creation God keeps everything aligned, who reads His big show described by Guru Nanak in Asa Dee Vaar, shouldn’t even debate His being Nirvair or not because Guru Nanak is very well aware of Mool Mantra( For God’s sake he wrote it!) When expressing God in Raag Maru to the extreme length, Guru keeps Mool Mantra in mind, it is so obvious. Guru’s Mool Mantra is not the end of his description of God any way, if it was, nowhere in Gurbani, God would have been ever defined further as He has been by all Guru Mehalas along with Guru Nanak himself. Guru is not ambiguous about his concept. While expressing His Sargun Swroop, Guru Never misses to call Him “Nirankar(formless) lest anyone should misunderstand his concept of God. Gurmat always should be discussed not according to what people think but what Guru says. My own thinking is meaningless in concept of Gurbani.

Regards
G Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Maybe we need to go back to the beginning to get a fresh perspective. The thread started with Don't Turn Down God when he comes to you. So in Gurbani the same idea is expressed.

This is the spiritual neurosis that is described by Nanak, a kind of living hell, that rises within the heart. A kind of living hell.

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
naanak raakhanehaar apaar ||3||
O Nanak, the Infinite Lord is our Saving Grace. ||3||


ਰਤਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕਉਡੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਚੈ ॥
rathan thiaag kouddee sang rachai ||
Forsaking the jewel, they are engrossed with a shell.


ਸਾਚੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਝੂਠ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਚੈ ॥
saach shhodd jhooth sang machai ||
They renounce Truth and embrace falsehood.


ਜੋ ਛਡਨਾ ਸੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
jo shhaddanaa s asathhir kar maanai ||
That which passes away, they believe to be permanent.


ਜੋ ਹੋਵਨੁ ਸੋ ਦੂਰਿ ਪਰਾਨੈ ॥
jo hovan so dhoor paraanai ||
That which is immanent, they believe to be far off.


ਛੋਡਿ ਜਾਇ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਸ੍ਰਮੁ ਕਰੈ ॥
shhodd jaae this kaa sram karai ||
They struggle for what they must eventually leave.


ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥
sang sehaaee this pareharai ||
They turn away from the Lord, their Help and Support, who is always with them.


ਚੰਦਨ ਲੇਪੁ ਉਤਾਰੈ ਧੋਇ ॥
chandhan laep outhaarai dhhoe ||
They wash off the sandalwood paste;


ਗਰਧਬ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਭਸਮ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
garadhhab preeth bhasam sang hoe ||
like donkeys, they are in love with the mud.


ਅੰਧ ਕੂਪ ਮਹਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਬਿਕਰਾਲ ॥
andhh koop mehi pathith bikaraal ||
They have fallen into the deep, dark pit.


ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਢਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਇਆਲ ॥੪॥
naanak kaadt laehu prabh dhaeiaal ||4||
Nanak: lift them up and save them, O Merciful Lord God! ||4||


ਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਪਸੂ ਕੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
karathooth pasoo kee maanas jaath ||
They belong to the human species, but they act like animals.


ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰਾ ਕਰੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥
lok pachaaraa karai dhin raath ||
They curse others day and night.


ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਲੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
baahar bhaekh anthar mal maaeiaa ||
Outwardly, they wear religious robes, but within is the filth of Maya.


ਛਪਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ਕਛੁ ਕਰੈ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥
shhapas naahi kashh karai shhapaaeiaa ||
They cannot conceal this, no matter how hard they try.


v ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਇਸਨਾਨ ॥
baahar giaan dhhiaan eisanaan ||
Outwardly, they display knowledge, meditation and purification,


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਸੁਆਨੁ ॥
anthar biaapai lobh suaan ||
but within clings the dog of greed.

Guru Arjan Dev,
Ang 267

 

[kiram]

"When expressing God in Raag Maru to the extreme length, Guru keeps Mool Mantra in mind, " - PK70 Ji

Which Ang Sahib and Shabad is this Ji that you are referring to.. Please let me know, thank you!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Dear Sangat Ji
After reading a few posts, it’s amazing to see why Absolute Lord’s being Nirvair or not is being debated.
What I say or other say about Nirvair Akalpurakh is not the issue. That is not the issue at all. Who called Him Nirvair(Guru Nanak) is very well aware of this fact even when he expresses His immense power over His creation and His justice system( Aasa Dee Vaar).
The issue is that Guru Nanak is questioned and questioned without understanding him. The questioning of Guru Nanak is very crystal clear

The issue is Mahabir Singh Ji’s questioning of Guru Nanak’s Guru Vaak where Guru Nanak says that under His Justice system, kings are reduced to nothing, according to Mahabir Singh, God is not as Guru Nanak describes Him as scary who dethrones kings, if his post is read, this is the thing, I have made an issue and kept telling him that Guru Nanak is saying these things in different context and His God is of course Nirvair.
I have never tried to define God as other than Nirvair so on what commentary is going on? Issue is to defend Guru Nanak’s concept where Mahabir Singh ji questions Guru Nanak without understanding Guru Nanak’s concept of God and his Ordinance (Hukam)
The irony of all this is that Mahabir Singh is eager to understand those Guru Vaakas of Guru Nanak to clear any doubt ( As per his PM)and here to my surprise another music is being played !!!
It’s sad that Guru is questioned and we are debating which is not the Issue (at least I feel in context of Guru Ji). In Assa Dee Var, Guru Nanak makes very well clear how through His own creation God keeps everything aligned, who reads His big show described by Guru Nanak in Asa Dee Vaar, shouldn’t even debate His being Nirvair or not because Guru Nanak is very well aware of Mool Mantra( For God’s sake he wrote it!) When expressing God in Raag Maru to the extreme length, Guru keeps Mool Mantra in mind, it is so obvious. Guru’s Mool Mantra is not the end of his description of God any way, if it was, nowhere in Gurbani, God would have been ever defined further as He has been by all Guru Mehalas along with Guru Nanak himself. Guru is not ambiguous about his concept. While expressing His Sargun Swroop, Guru Never misses to call Him “Nirankar(formless) lest anyone should misunderstand his concept of God. Gurmat always should be discussed not according to what people think but what Guru says. My own thinking is meaningless in concept of Gurbani.

Regards
G Singh

Sadh Sangat ji,

Guru Fateh.

The above post is full of self contradictions. Allow me to point out a few.

The issue is that Guru Nanak is questioned and questioned without understanding him. The questioning of Guru Nanak is very crystal clear

Says who? Whose understanding or interpretation of Gurbani are we talking about here?

The issue is Mahabir Singh Ji’s questioning of Guru Nanak’s Guru Vaak where Guru Nanak says that under His Justice system, kings are reduced to nothing, according to Mahabir Singh, God is not as Guru Nanak describes Him as scary who dethrones kings, if his post is read, this is the thing, I have made an issue and kept telling him that Guru Nanak is saying these things in different context

First and foremost, the name is Mahanbir. We should have the decency and courtsey to address people with the right name.

Who claims about the different context? Whose interpretation is that which contradicts Mahanbir ji's?

Guru is not ambiguous about his concept. While expressing His Sargun Swroop, Guru Never misses to call Him “Nirankar(formless) lest anyone should misunderstand his concept of God.

Once again who claims the above in bold?

And here comes the Mother of all contradictions after what is mentioned above.

My own thinking is meaningless in concept of Gurbani.

All the above is nothing but personal interpretation and thinking which is ok but under the same token Mahanbir ji's or others' interpretations should not be rejected. Disagreements enrichen us.

Imposition of one's own thoughts unto others is not a Sikhi way. Accepting others' views is a must as long as they are not anti Gurmat. Let's not be blind to the reality that our Gurus talk to all of us, not to the chosen few.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

"When expressing God in Raag Maru to the extreme length, Guru keeps Mool Mantra in mind, " - PK70 Ji

Which Ang Sahib and Shabad is this Ji that you are referring to.. Please let me know, thank you!

Kiram Ji,
Guru ji goes in detail about Akalpurakh especially in Raag Maru. My reference was not a particular Shabada since you have asked me, let me give you , the Ang 1038, you read a Shabada that starts with “Jah dekha ta deen dyaala………( Its about His being all pervading=onkaar not /Ram), you will see how Mool Mantra concept is kept alive while describing His Sargun Swroop. As a matter of fact, all Sikhs should study Raag Maru in depth to understand Guru Nanak’s concept of God and His Ordinance, Asa Dee Vaar clears all doubts. Guru’s Message is complete, no contradiction, no doubt or ambiguity as some see and keep sticking to one Guru Vaak. It is sad people don’t make sincere efforts to understand how Guru keeps expressing various issues by repeating them which are interpreted by other Gurus as well. Even in Maru Raag, Third Mehal, Fourth Mehal and Fifth Mehal keep interpreting what Guru Nanak said in Raag Maru before them. Dr Sahib also asks the readers to keep complete Gurbani concept in mind while studying because he found some people questioning Bhgatas Ji unnecessarily ( Gurugranth sahibDarpan)
I also recommend you to study In Assa dee Vaar, look Stanza number 3., you will see how he is clear about His eternal Ordinance we all are subject to( In Japji it is stressed a lot though with reference without going in detail). There is no pick and choose in Gurbani, either one should go by what Guru says or swing around one’s own rationality.

Thanks
G Singh

 

[kiram]

"Jeh Dekhaa Teh Deen Dayaalaa.... Aaye Na Jaaye Prabh Kirpaalaa
Jeeyaa Andar Jugat Samaayee Raheyo Niraalam Raaeyaa "

Just saw the Shabad , thank you so much! Will check Aasaa dee vaar too..

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

a missing "bindi"....or missing "n" ??
Jinnah ne dekh ke unditth keeta...:idea::idea::idea::idea:
Jios..???? lets be kinder...so much to do and so little time to do it....PLEASE.

 

[spnadmin]

Asa ki Vaar is a different topic. Let's keep the thread on course. Thanks so much. aad0002

 

[Tejwant Singh]

a missing "bindi"....or missing "n" ??
Jinnah ne dekh ke unditth keeta...:idea::idea::idea::idea:
Jios..???? lets be kinder...so much to do and so little time to do it....PLEASE.

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you. We all make typos and have slips while posting. When I was addressed as Tejinder instead of Tejwant in a couple of posts, I gently reminded the gentleman concerend a couple of times and his response rather than realising and apologising for the slip was," I do not care what your name is". This is all part of the record in this forum. So it is not about a slip but the attitude.

No offense intended.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

aad jio

I beg to differ with your comments "Asa ki Vaar is a different topic" Mahanbir Singh Ji questioned Guru Nanak on the base of Guru Vaak from Assa Dee Vaar, how Asa Dee Vaar is of different topic? Wasn't it his first question about " Nadr upathee" from Asa Dee Var? Will you elaborate how it is different topic than what we have been discussing about His being mercyful, kind and NIRVAIR as portrayed by Guru Nanak?
Thanks

Regards
G singh

 

[spnadmin]

pk70 ji

Although I understand your point -- here is the rub. Every part of Gurbani overlaps with every other part of Gurbani. That is the beauty of SGGS. But the thread topic is about Don't Turn Down God. It wouldn't be a problem to illustrate this point using Asa ke Var with an explanation. I just provided a reminder so that the discussion did not go off course. And it was not directed at anyone in particular, but more a general statement so that future posts do not go off course.