Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear shangar ji

I see from an earlier post that you were insisting that logic be applied to religion.

i assume you will agree that it should apply to science as well

i trust then you are aware of aspects of quantum physics that defy logic.

are you as eager to dismiss quantum physicss as well?

 

[findingmyway]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Depends on outlook. I'll explain below in blue.

Requires people to mediate on gods name.
Define meditation? Repeating a 'mantra' or buddhist style meditation is not the way for everyone but does help others. For some Sikhs mediation is applying the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib ji into your life. There are different types of 'meditation' so I don't understand your point. Everyone has coping mechanisms for life and many of these could come under the umbrella of meditation.

Avoid halal meat (or meat full stop for some people but that is another discussion).
Avoiding Halal meat is for 2 reasons; 1, in some countries and way back then eating Halal meat made you Muslim in the authorities eyes, and 2, Halal meat is a ritual. So not eating it is empowering and moving you away from rituals that don't make sense.

Avoid alcohol.
Alcohol makes you lose control of your mind so again avoiding intoxicants is empowering you to retain FULL control of your life. Peer pressure is such a powerful force that my choice not to drink is actually very liberating and provides me with much respect as many don't have the strength to not join in as they are expected to. So really the control is over your OWN life. Mandating alcohol and drugs would give others more control over you!

The 5Ks.
If you understand the reasoning behind them then they are empowering. If you don't then you shouldn't keep them. They are all about freedom and defending that freedom. If you don't believe in them then don't keep them as that's not true to yourself or the cause.

I'm sure there are more, chastity etc.
Again, they all have a good reason. Chastity for example stops lust controlling your mind and dictating your actions. It's all about you keeping control over your own mind rather than being controlled by your environment, peer pressure, hormones, emotions etc.

They are instructions to control people however you look at it. You can become the best person you can be without judging the world, without religion. That is why I ask why should one follow sikhi at all? Why not secular humanism or something like that?

Being the best person is one part, the other is feeling spirituality for the ultimate peace of mind.

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

You are looking for the wrong things. You mention the big bang but what came before, how was it created, how has everything worked out so perfectly for us to exist, why do I feel so much wonder when looking at a waterfall or watching wildlife on safari? These are proof enough of God for me. The beauty of the Guru Granth Sahib ji is that there is nothing contradictory, nothing that stops you living in the real world (quite the opposite) and nothing that science refutes. Without spirituality you don't get true peace of mind and emotions are harder to handle. Challenges and happiness is dealt with in a different way. (I'm not there yet but working on it). You can live successfully without but I feel life is enriched with having spirituality otherwise there is a hole there. Everyone is different so you have to choose your own path and that includes doing some more of your own research starting from SGGSJ.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

!et's not go off at a tangent here but current thinking from leading theoretical physicists such as Prof Stephen Hawking is that the above is a cyclical process so that the universe has always existed

But it still happened right? Then I'm asking whether SGGSJ refers to it, and how so.

Dear Shangar Ji

You appear to have confirmed the futility of this debate by stating you have no need for spiritual progression

I and many others do have a need which is why people follow a particular path that suits them

May I ask if you are an Atheist as there are already a number of good Atheist threads on this forum

as stated before, I consider the science thing to be irrelevant unless you suggest we should start worshipping the builders of Stonehenge or the Pyramids

there are a number of things that make Sikhism stand out from the crowd but is there much point going into them as if a miracle is what you seek, then i doubt any religion would pass that test

Can I ask you- what is it about SGGSJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?

I'm not an atheist.

Maybe miracle is a strong word, but something special to show the religious scripture is valid is surely not an unreasonably request?
What kind of things maybe sikhi stand out from the crowd? - & I don't just mean the differences (like there are man paths to god etc) I mean in terms of it not being a farce.

Thanks for replies

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear all

Apologies for the quality of my recent posts as I am doing this from a phone !

Dont worry theyre fine

Dear shangar ji

I see from an earlier post that you were insisting that logic be applied to religion.

i assume you will agree that it should apply to science as well

i trust then you are aware of aspects of quantum physics that defy logic.

are you as eager to dismiss quantum physicss as well?

I don't really know anything about quantum physics, could you give me an example of something that defies logic?

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Depends on outlook. I'll explain below in blue.

Define meditation? Repeating a 'mantra' or buddhist style meditation is not the way for everyone but does help others. For some Sikhs mediation is applying the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib ji into your life. There are different types of 'meditation' so I don't understand your point. Everyone has coping mechanisms for life and many of these could come under the umbrella of meditation.

Either way you have to take action in meditating/praying. My point was about sikhi controlling your life, I was asked how, and this is one example, you're told to do pray etc

Avoiding Halal meat is for 2 reasons; 1, in some countries and way back then eating Halal meat made you Muslim in the authorities eyes, and 2, Halal meat is a ritual. So not eating it is empowering and moving you away from rituals that don't make sense.

I could argue that the 5Ks are rituals that do not make sense though. And that eating meat dedicated to god makes you more higher on a spiritual level and closer to god etc.

Alcohol makes you lose control of your mind so again avoiding intoxicants is empowering you to retain FULL control of your life. Peer pressure is such a powerful force that my choice not to drink is actually very liberating and provides me with much respect as many don't have the strength to not join in as they are expected to. So really the control is over your OWN life. Mandating alcohol and drugs would give others more control over you!

In moderation alcohol is fine, but it is forbidden full stop, which is again sikhi controlling your life.

If you understand the reasoning behind them then they are empowering. If you don't then you shouldn't keep them. They are all about freedom and defending that freedom. If you don't believe in them then don't keep them as that's not true to yourself or the cause.

It is quite the opposite to freedom, I would have to refrain from buying food at a halal chicken shop, I would have to refrain from drinking alcohol even if I only wanted one glass etc.

Again, they all have a good reason. Chastity for example stops lust controlling your mind and dictating your actions. It's all about you keeping control over your own mind rather than being controlled by your environment, peer pressure, hormones, emotions etc.

Someone can have a few sexual partners in their life and not be an obsessed sexual deviant overcome with lust, also they can also wear contraception, so all in all there will be no harm done as it doesnt mean that their life will be taken over.

You are looking for the wrong things. You mention the big bang but what came before, how was it created, how has everything worked out so perfectly for us to exist, why do I feel so much wonder when looking at a waterfall or watching wildlife on safari? These are proof enough of God for me. The beauty of the Guru Granth Sahib ji is that there is nothing contradictory, nothing that stops you living in the real world (quite the opposite) and nothing that science refutes. Without spirituality you don't get true peace of mind and emotions are harder to handle. Challenges and happiness is dealt with in a different way. (I'm not there yet but working on it). You can live successfully without but I feel life is enriched with having spirituality otherwise there is a hole there. Everyone is different so you have to choose your own path and that includes doing some more of your own research starting from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ.

If the big bang and what came before it was explained then sure would add a lot of credibility.

I get that you feel wonder when looking at things, and that you think that only a powerful external force like god could be responsible, but there is also another angle to look at, why are there so many flaws? e.g. why do many animals go extinct, why do thousands of small turtles etc get eaten before making adulthood, why do millions of sperm get wasted when only 1 is required , many scientists say that less than 1 in a million planets in our galaxy and other galaxies may be able to support life. In our own solar system just 1 out of 9 planets is habitable. There are many imperfections. Therefore the idea of a great perfect god doesnt seem rational to me.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

shanger ji

Your question can be turned around easily and will be just as impossible to answer. Your question

Can I ask you- what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?

Now turn it around "Can I ask you - what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe it was created by unintelligent men with special levels of spirituality, and they did not want to control people (for any reason)?"

The only way to demonstrate points made in Question 1 is to read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then highlight shabads where you think intelligence, along with the intention to "control" and lack of "spirituality" are present.

The only way to demonstrate the points made in Quesiton 2 is to highlight shabads where you believe there is evidence of stupidity, accompanied by a high degree of spirituality and no desire to control.

Now I can predict that either way you are going to have one or more people, argue and say, NO you are wrong! Their problem will be that they are reacting from their guts and do not see how you are asking trick questions.

Seems like a huge waste of time and energy.

Take one issue at a time. Talk about intelligence, spirituality, and whether there is or is not evidence of trying to control behavior one issue at a time.

Final point - If you are looking for proof, no one will be able to convince you, unless you state up front what kind of proof you are looking for, and what tests the proof has to meet. Otherwise we are indulging in a guessing game.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger Ji,
You will have to look for the relevnat material yourself. No spoon feeding from my end.
Btw there are various Threads on SPN itself on Gurbani/Sggs/Science etc. Very informative and containing quotes etc and written by experts in their fields. Shouldnt be a problem locating them and going through them if due diligence is exercised. SGGS has to be studied by ones-self..it cannot be taught via quotes.
Regards

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

shanger ji

Your question can be turned around easily and will be just as impossible to answer. Your question

Now turn it around "Can I ask you - what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe it was created by unintelligent men with special levels of spirituality, and they did not want to control people (for any reason)?"

The only way to demonstrate points made in Question 1 is to read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then highlight shabads where you think intelligence, along with the intention to "control" and lack of "spirituality" are present.

Do you mean to ask

"what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe it was created by intelligent men without special levels of spirituality, because they want to control people (for any reason)?"

-because that is the point that I am getting at.

The only way to demonstrate the points made in Quesiton 2 is to highlight shabads where you believe there is evidence of stupidity, accompanied by a high degree of spirituality and no desire to control.

I think there has been a misunderstanding, I am saying that the Gurus could have been intelligent people who not special level of spirituality, who wrote SGGSJ to control people.

I never used the word stupidity either.

I could highlight shabads where I believe that there is no evidence of spirituality & there is desire to control.

Now I can predict that either way you are going to have one or more people, argue and say, NO you are wrong! Their problem will be that they are reacting from their guts and do not see how you are asking trick questions.

I'm not asking trick questions.

Seems like a huge waste of time and energy.
Take one issue at a time. Talk about intelligence, spirituality, and whether there is or is not evidence of trying to control behavior one issue at a time.

Ok I shall start from the beginning.

Final point - If you are looking for proof, no one will be able to convince you, unless you state up front what kind of proof you are looking for, and what tests the proof has to meet. Otherwise we are indulging in a guessing game.

Ok, I already said above I would like this kind of proof-

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

Removing my comment thanking you earlier because I have changed my mind.

I'm not trying to convert people to atheists or get them to leave sikhi if thats what you think, I am trying to get a better understanding, if my points across like an attack its because I dont know how to word them any different.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger Ji,
You will have to look for the relevnat material yourself. No spoon feeding from my end.
Btw there are various Threads on SPN itself on Gurbani/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/Science etc. Very informative and containing quotes etc and written by experts in their fields. Shouldnt be a problem locating them and going through them if due diligence is exercised. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to be studied by ones-self..it cannot be taught via quotes.
Regards

I've done thread title searches for words such as "science" "evolution" "earth" etc but not much comes up, abstracts to books etc such as this-

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs/drdpsn/83-scientific-vision-sri-guru-granth-sahib.html - this was on scientific vision in SGGSJ but there was no sources/shabads given. probably all in the full book though


anyway I guess me going through SGGSJ shabad after shabad will be more constructive.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji

I do not mean to ask anything regarding this subject. My intention is to get you to clarify. Now we have a question that I hope is the one you want to focus on.

Do you mean to ask

"what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that makes you believe it was created by intelligent men without special levels of spirituality, because they want to control people (for any reason)?"

-because that is the point that I am getting at.

Thanks

I think there has been a misunderstanding, I am saying that the Gurus could have been intelligent people who not special level of spirituality, who wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ to control people.

I do not think there was a misunderstanding. Your restatement clarifies a grammatical ambiguity in your earlier question.

I never used the word stupidity either.

I know.

I could highlight shabads where I believe that there is no evidence of spirituality & there is desire to control.

So then please quote the shabads in their entirety, in Gurmukhi and English, with Ang numbers - no single verses or tuks - so that we may see what you are talking about in black and white - and explain why you believe there is "no spirituality" and a "desire to control."

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

Suppose someone would give examples that they honestly felt fit the bill from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And suppose you did not agree and critiqued their answers asking for more proofs and better logic. What would that accomplish?

I'm not trying to convert people to atheists or get them to leave sikhi if thats what you think, I am trying to get a better understanding, if my points across like an attack its because I dont know how to word them any different.

I actually do not get the feeling you are trying to convert people, or attack. I get the feeling that you are asking for objective proofs in matters that are fundamentally subjective. Or where formal logic rather than scientific method are better tools. Thus, Q and A will take us in circles. Your motivations are your business.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Ok 1st ang

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&Param=1

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
जपु ॥
Jap.
Chant And Meditate:

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
आदि सचु जुगादि सचु ॥
Āḏ sacẖ jugāḏ sacẖ.
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
है भी सचु नानक होसी भी सचु ॥१॥
Hai bẖī sacẖ Nānak hosī bẖī sacẖ. ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
चुपै चुप न होवई जे लाइ रहा लिव तार ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
भुखिआ भुख न उतरी जे बंना पुरीआ भार ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
सहस सिआणपा लख होहि त इक न चलै नालि ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
किव सचिआरा होईऐ किव कूड़ै तुटै पालि ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
हुकमि रजाई चलणा नानक लिखिआ नालि ॥१॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥
हुकमी होवनि आकार हुकमु न कहिआ जाई ॥
Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī.
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
हुकमी होवनि जीअ हुकमि मिलै वडिआई ॥
Hukmī hovan jī▫a hukam milai vadi▫ā▫ī.
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
हुकमी उतमु नीचु हुकमि लिखि दुख सुख पाईअहि ॥
Hukmī uṯam nīcẖ hukam likẖ ḏukẖ sukẖ pā▫ī▫ah.
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
इकना हुकमी बखसीस इकि हुकमी सदा भवाईअहि ॥
Iknā hukmī bakẖsīs ik hukmī saḏā bẖavā▫ī▫ah.
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
हुकमै अंदरि सभु को बाहरि हुकम न कोइ ॥
Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e.
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
नानक हुकमै जे बुझै त हउमै कहै न कोइ ॥२॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਤਾਣੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਿਸੈ ਤਾਣੁ ॥
गावै को ताणु होवै किसै ताणु ॥
Gāvai ko ṯāṇ hovai kisai ṯāṇ.
Some sing of His Power-who has that Power?

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਦਾਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
गावै को दाति जाणै नीसाणु ॥
Gāvai ko ḏāṯ jāṇai nīsāṇ.
Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia.

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਗੁਣ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਚਾਰ ॥
गावै को गुण वडिआईआ चार ॥
Gāvai ko guṇ vaḏi▫ā▫ī▫ā cẖār.
Some sing of His Glorious Virtues, Greatness and Beauty.

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਵਿਖਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
गावै को विदिआ विखमु वीचारु ॥
Gāvai ko viḏi▫ā vikẖam vīcẖār.
Some sing of knowledge obtained of Him, through difficult philosophical studies.

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸਾਜਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥
गावै को साजि करे तनु खेह ॥
Gāvai ko sāj kare ṯan kẖeh.
Some sing that He fashions the body, and then again reduces it to dust.

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਜੀਅ ਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥
गावै को जीअ लै फिरि देह ॥
Gāvai ko jī▫a lai fir ḏeh.
Some sing that He takes life away, and then again restores it.

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਪੈ ਦਿਸੈ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
गावै को जापै दिसै दूरि ॥
Gāvai ko jāpai ḏisai ḏūr.
Some sing that He seems so very far away.

Basically this to me-

• is focusing on the greatness of god, how god is the truth, always has been always will be, you cannot deceive god etc.
  
• You're brain cannot comprehend the maginificent qualities of god.
  
• God is responsible for everything.

All things that a regular human could have wrote in my opinion, this is just the start I am not saying the entire SGGSJ is like this, but for the sake of discussion I will stop here for now so we can discuss the ang.

There is nothing which makes me see how there is anything spiritual.
Nothing here is controlling yet.

Also would it be better for me to analyse shabads together instead of individual angs? I would have done so now but I didnt know where it began and ended so just stopped at the end of the ang.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Well before I go into more detail, Let me offer some corrections.

Also would it be better for me to analyse shabads together instead of individual angs? I would have done so now but I didnt know where it began and ended so just stopped at the end of the ang.

You seemed to have stopped at the end of the pauree 3. Not at the end of a raag. Also Japuji is not written as a raag. Usually Japuji is discussed pauree by pauree.

So you could discuss one pauree at a time, or discuss all 3 of them together.


And you omitted the end of the 3rd pauree, as follows

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਹਾਦਰਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
gaavai ko vaekhai haadharaa hadhoor ||
गावै को वेखै हादरा हदूरि ॥
Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present.


ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਟਿ ॥
kathhanaa kathhee n aavai thott ||
कथना कथी न आवै तोटि ॥
There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.

ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ॥
kathh kathh kathhee kottee kott kott ||
कथि कथि कथी कोटी कोटि कोटि ॥
Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.

ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
dhaedhaa dhae laidhae thhak paahi ||
देदा दे लैदे थकि पाहि ॥
The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving.

ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
jugaa juganthar khaahee khaahi ||
जुगा जुगंतरि खाही खाहि ॥
Throughout the ages, consumers consume.


ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
hukamee hukam chalaaeae raahu ||
हुकमी हुकमु चलाए राहु ॥
The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.


ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੩॥
naanak vigasai vaeparavaahu ||3||
नानक विगसै वेपरवाहु ॥३॥
O Nanak, He blossoms forth, Carefree and Untroubled. ||3||

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Ok I think I get it now, I see the numbers.
||3|| = 3rd pauree?
||4|| = 4th pauree etc?


I will start where I left off and finish the paurees

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਹਾਦਰਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
गावै को वेखै हादरा हदूरि ॥
Gāvai ko vekẖai hāḏrā haḏūr.
Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present.

ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਟਿ ॥
कथना कथी न आवै तोटि ॥
Kathnā kathī na āvai ṯot.
There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.

ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ॥
कथि कथि कथी कोटी कोटि कोटि ॥
Kath kath kathī kotī kot kot.
Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.

ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
देदा दे लैदे थकि पाहि ॥
Ḏeḏā ḏe laiḏe thak pāhi.
The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving.

ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
जुगा जुगंतरि खाही खाहि ॥
Jugā juganṯar kẖāhī kẖāhi.
Throughout the ages, consumers consume.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
हुकमी हुकमु चलाए राहु ॥
Hukmī hukam cẖalā▫e rāhu.
The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੩॥
नानक विगसै वेपरवाहु ॥३॥
Nānak vigsai veparvāhu. ||3||
O Nanak, He blossoms forth, Carefree and Untroubled. ||3||

This to me is saying similar things to the previous pauree.

God is all-knowing and responsible for everything we have, god is great and flawless unlike humans and will lead us towards him (leads us to walk on the Path).

Again nothing special/spiritual in my opinion, nothing a normal human could not have wrote.

(all from ang 2)

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

OK that you see how the paurees are marked off, and thanks for reposting. I am not going to respond for right now. But let's see what other people come up wiht. Thanks.

 

[jnanavan]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Fair points, however the fact that Sikhi says that there is a god, and Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ instructs people to meditate on gods name etc means that there is a god. That is a big claim to make that surely should require proof? Or Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ should contain something which shows it is not just man-made in terms of a controlling device right?

Yes you are right. This proof is in the very first word that nanak uttered after attaining enlightment, the problem is you lack two things and no it is not faith. You lack 1)wisdom and 2)awareness. This proof is stated in the beginning of every ragga/shabbad.

EK-ONGKAR

Out of the thousands of names that humans have attributed to god(allah, yahweh, dios, bhagavan,god etc) there is only ONE and ONE true name that was not assigned by any man in any language but is a product of god himself, that true name of the creater is ONGKAR.

Onkar means "the sound of OM" which i believe in rooted in the ancient vedas and eventually hinduism. When a person reaches a state of SAMADHI or ENGLIGHTMENT one finaly gets to hear "the melody of existence". The universe is made of ENERGY and sound is an expression of ENERGY or VIBRATION. In eastern philosophy(throught the whole ancient world really) sages discovered this thousdands of years ago, they discovered that existence,sound and energy are all one. As a matter a fact every single planet is ommiting certain harmonic tones and together form a CELESTIAL ORCHERTRA. Also the harmonic notes which we use to play music derived from the distance(i could be wrong) or spot which the planets occupy.

YouTube - Jupiter sounds (so strange!) NASA-Voyager recording

Omkar is also knows as the "unstruck sound" or "Ananhat Naad" because it is beyond all DUALITY. For sound to be created a DUALITY is needed. For example in a string instrument you need 1)the strings 2) the plucking of the fingers. This duality creates a sound and all sound is created out of this DUALITY. God is beyond DUALITY, timeless, formless, beyond birth and rebirth, uncaused cause, beyond casuality(as the merovingian would say in Matrix 2).

But then I have to ask what makes the 10 Gurus masters, why do their teachings need to be followed?

I have no problem accepting that the majority of their teachings was for a more peaceful world, but I don't see how it can be related to god.

With regards to the "sublime and timeless poetry", could you give an example along with an explanation so I can see where you are coming from please.

A man of god recognises another man of god. A thief recognises a thief. A philosopher can spot out another philosopher. A sorcerer can spot out another sorcerer. Only the wise will be able to recognise the TRUE GURU(any teacher) , so if you cannot see the wisdom of the 10 masters of the world then it is not their fault or prolem. It is youres. Here goes a shabad which i consider SUBLIME and TIMELESS and which YOU can benefit a lot from.

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Third Mehla, Ashtpadeeaa:fficeffice" /><?"urn:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

The pollution of the mind is the love of duality.

Deluded by doubt, people come and go in reincarnation. ||1||

The pollution of the self-willed manmukhs will never go away,

as long as they do not dwell on the Shabad, and the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

All the created beings are contaminated by emotional attachment;

they die and are reborn, only to die over and over again. ||2||

Fire, air and water are polluted.

The food which is eaten is polluted. ||3||

The actions of those who do not worship the Lord are polluted.

Attuned to the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mind becomes immaculate. ||4||

Serving the True Guru, pollution is eradicated,

and then, one does not suffer death and rebirth, or get devoured by death. ||5||

You may study and examine the Shaastras and the Simritees,

but without the Name, no one is liberated. ||6||

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, only the Gurmukhs cross over. ||7||

The True Lord does not die; He does not come or go.

O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains absorbed in the Lord. ||8||1||

animatedkhanda1

 

[jnanavan]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji, one more thing. Gurus understood the power of NAAD/SOUND/VIBRATION and employed a RAGA(indian classical tunes/alchemical formulas) to every shabad. This way you get to

1)cognitively or analiticaly understand the message
2)emotionaly or intuivly feel the message thorugh the specific RAGA.

So this beutiful shabbad i posted above is only doing half of its effect if it is only READ. This shabbad should be accompanied by the RAGA and sung to have its full affect on youre soul.

Also i read something about science , not sure if you where advocating this but either ways. Science is a bloody joke and only measures the universe according to our 5 senses. This is great for understanding and controling small aspects of the universe(build a damn, harness electricity) but when you are trying to use science to asnwer the great mysterious of the universe it is like mowing the lawn with scissors.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji, For me Sikhism provides a cure to all suffering. That's right, ALL suffering. It is quite simple to grasp the general idea of it, yet it gets very difficult when you delve into the details and the practice of it. The spirituality in Sikhism is focused on one's ego and creating sangats to help each other break down this ego. Ego is manifested in the 5 "vices", it shows its ugly face through these: greed, pride, anger, etc. Once you have reached God, and by that I mean once you have broken down your ego, you will start seeing oneness. You will start seeing the BIG picture of the world, you will feel a sense of unity. These words are not enough to describe this indescribable experience it can only be felt, it can only be experienced. Once you experience it you will no longer doubt that experience. But in order to get there you need to believe (have some belief) that it is indeed possible.

We do things to makes us happy. We take part in pleasures like eating delicious foods, enjoying company, watching TV, reading a good book, etc. After performing these tasks, you feel good for about an hour. You go back, and repeat this. Again, you feel good for about an hour. You go back and repeat this. You feel good about yourself yet again, however, you find yourself seeking out these same things over and over and over. You may even look for something new to do, yet you find yourself going back to it and repeating it. In our daily life, we constantly reiterate these things to keep us well and happy.
Do you realize that this is the dumbest thing ever!?! Think about it. If you are solving a solution to a math problem you have never seen ,and you've tried about 5 different ways of solving it. Once you solve using those 5 ways, you go back and repeat... doesn't work, you go back and repeat yet again... and again and again... until you are dead...sad...:motherlylove:


There was only one thing to do for the people who realized how stupid this was! They tried a simple experiment and isolated themselves from these things. They would go in to an isolated cave or in the middle of a desert, when they would not be inclined to repeat their old habits of simply repeating **** over and over. There they started to uncover secrets of happiness, they started to uncover the solution to the end of suffering. They found that there is an alternative source of happiness that is not contingent upon having friends or family around, or always having that promotion you wanted. They found that this alternative source of happiness is limitless, you can draw as much as you want and it never runs out. It is beyond anyone's grasp, beyond anyone's understanding or capacity to understand. "It is there, if only you believe us", they said, "we have some idea of how to get there."

Over many more centuries, you have many developments in this field, especially in the East... by humans just like us...

Fast forward this development to the time of the Gurus. This was during the rise of the Bhakti Movement, more can be found here: http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhakti.html and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_movement

The developments in that search for happiness had developed to the point where one did not need isolate them from the world. Spiritual practices were being included as part of daily life by many intelligent saints. In fact, practices like social service was being preached by great saints of this 'marg' like Bhagat Kabir, Sheikh Farid, etc. Social service, where the mind is focused on the service and the humility of such service, was a great for diminishing the ego (see the very beginning of this reply). This applied to all practices.

Sikhism in its spirituality and social relations is heavily influenced by the Bhakti movement. However, unlike other Bhakti preachers, Gurus were keen on making their ideals being put into practice rather than remain mostly in theory, and with one man Guru Nanak, Sikhism had began to develop into a religion in its own right, covering not only spirituality and social services but also the field of politics and military. The latter two turned out to be more important than estimated (if ever considered) by the previous saints of the Bhakti movement. However Gurus were quick to prepare for them. These aspects (of Sikhism) became essential when it came to protecting the spiritual and social system (of Sikhism). The Mughals in order to protect their own power, started to undermine the power of those gaining power including the Sikh Gurus, Maratha Kings. Knowledge of politics and military, and learning to defeat their tyrannical government both politcally and through use of arms and armour became necessary. ....Thus Sikhism developed into a complete system that it is today. (in a nutshell)

You asked "why Sikhism?" This is why Sikhism.
Unlike the Western system which is focused on individual material gain, power and control (it sees only itself in every other system)... Sikhism is the latest "technology" of the development of systems of well-being; it is focused around individual and universal well-being. It brings into play politics and military if it needs to defend this well being.

Cheers

 

[findingmyway]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,
I am only going to comment on 2 points at this stage.
1) Alcohol is a mind altering substance, there is no denying this fact. That is why people like taking it. I have heard the moderation argument by so many people trying to justify themselves but it doesn't hold so if you want to drink accept it for what it is. Even 1 drink will change you (maybe not dramatically). Also there are some situations where 1 drink is enough to know someone over the edge, eg on empty stomach, when feeling down, and it is not always predictable when this would happen. If this wasn't the case why would some countries have zero limit for driving and why do health professionals have zero tolerance to alcohol in work? The choice is yours-drugs controlling your mind or you retaining full control at all times. So I stick by what I said about not drinking being empowering.

2) Japji is very deep, beautiful and meaningful. You are only scratching the surface. In my gurmat classes we spend 40 minutes each week discussing 1 pauri!! It's like me knowing only high school genetics and asking whats the point of studying it. Try reading through some things here to get you started http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/
Here is an essay I wrote a while ago which will also give you food for thought http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33504-blind-faith-in-sikhism-is-possible.html

In school, university etc, you don't expect to spoon fed as you learn less and are less engaged. The same applies here.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Basically I'm asking what reasons you have for believing in Sikhi.

I ask this because at the moment I'm reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I am near the beginning and so far I have not read anything that convinces me, that could change though I have much to read.

I just want to know from people who consider themselves sikh now, what is it in GGSJ that makes you so sure that Sikhi is the true religion?

For example muslims will usually say stuff like, "the quran speaks about the stages of embyology, which was discovered much later by science proving it was from god as no one could have known it at the time" etc When trying to explain why their religion is true and from god etc.

(For the record Im not a muslim and I think their religion is heavily flawed including the parts on embryology)

I haven't been able to find much from searching around on the main arguments pro sikhism (other than moral/ethical reasons e.g. equality), maybe because in general sikhs don't try to actively convert lots of people. So I am hoping you guys can share your thoughts.

Reasons why I like Sikhism:

1) I like the idea of God being in everyone.
2) I like the idea that in order to realise that God you must control Krodh, Kam, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar
3) I like the idea of heaven and hell not being actual places but about those who dwell in self and unselfishly.
4) I like the idea there is no classic fight between good and evil, but that everyone is capable of being good or evil my resorting to self.
5) I like the idea of Munmukh (Self willed) and Munmook (God willed)
6) I like the fact that God is just seen as the creator of the laws of nature and we are free to operate within them, either for good or bad (it is up to us)

I could go on.

Do I think Sikhism is right? Well its right for me, can't say whether it is right for you.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dont worry theyre fine


I don't really know anything about quantum physics, could you give me an example of something that defies logic?

Dear Shangar Ji

I don't want to go off topic and it is probably better if you engage in a little research and learning. To that end, just Google the experiment where physicists proved the simulateneous existence of a particle in 2 places at once........how can something be in 2 places at once? Logical?? I think not!

If you read a bit more about the workings of the Universe at the Quantum state, you will hopefully appreciate there is no logic to explain behaviour at this level

As for the Big bang stuff, I'm not sure why the Big Bang explanation and the existence of God are mutually exclusive? In fact, you may be aware that teh Vatican officially endorsed this theory as in their mind, it left plenty of room for a Creator

That aside, I am sure you are aware that the concept of God in Sikhism is very different from the bearded patriarch in the Abrahamic faiths....in Sikhism, the Universe and God are one....so a cyclical universe that has always existed is absolutely fine

Now a couple more questions for you..

1) If you are looking for supernatural evidence to prove Scriptures are not man made, I guess you will believe in the divine authenticity of the Ten Commandments which God inscribed with his fiery finger on Mount Sinai? Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?


2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP

You have asked us to explain why we believe what we do and all the replies have been thorough and true.

I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....ultimately I think we will find it comes down to personal choice...you either choose to believe or you don't.............
:blueturban: