Do We Sikhs Have Too Much Arrogance?

[Lionchild]

Whoa! Harjas Kaur Khalsa, calm down! It's just a forum.

Better be careful LOL... or else someone who is more knowledgeable will school you on sikhi, hehe

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

It's not a matter of schooling. All are students. But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching. Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct? If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint? I don't get what your criticisms are all about. If it's not a path for you, then fine. But why the antagonism?

 

[sachchasoda]

So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse.

I had a strong impression that a SIKH has to be true to his/her words. No difference in Kathni(word) and Karni(deed).
Not that I want anybody gone just curious how a person can believe in what anybody said is the truth,​

when his/her deeds don't match with what he/she says.​

bhul chuk maaf karna please​

 

[kaur-1]

It's not a matter of schooling. All are students. But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching. Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct? If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint? I don't get what your criticisms are all about. If it's not a path for you, then fine. But why the antagonism?

Dear Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji, I do agree with your comments and I also sincerely hope that you wont be leaving this forum.

 

[Lionchild]

It's not a matter of schooling. All are students. But I'm trying to tell you, your explanations of Sikhism are not even what Sikhi is teaching. Why are you doing this when people are telling you it's not correct? If you renounced Sikhism, was it to correct Sikh teaching from a Bahai Standpoint? I don't get what your criticisms are all about. If it's not a path for you, then fine. But why the antagonism?

So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.

I have been noticing your angry and negative posts, not with me, but with others. You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.

Also, i hope you do not leave the forums too

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa

So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse.

I had a strong impression that a SIKH has to be true to his/her words. No difference in Kathni(word) and Karni(deed).
Not that I want anybody gone just curious how a person can believe in what anybody said is the truth,​

when his/her deeds don't match with what he/she says.​

Yes, I thought it over and wondered why bullies would have the right to chase me away and silence my opinion. Would that be right? It's a philosphy forum for open discussion on controversial topics. What I don't tolerate is personal abusiveness. That is not right. When someone doesn't like my positions and publically attacks me as being a horrible person, a fake Sikh, full of hatred toward the innocent, full of panj dhoots...

not because I said something against them personally, but because I presented an opinion on strict Gurmat Gursikhi they didn't like, I ask, what kind of a forum is this? What kind of forum moderation is this? It's a fair question. It's obvious I can't share in the same way as others do without a personal attack against my character. But likewise, while not throwing the same kind of personal low blows or insults, why should I be intimidated into silence? Would that be the Khalsa way? So re-evaluating my position on leaving, which is my free choice unless and until some moderator decides to ban me. Why am I a hypocrite if I change my mind? Why can't I change my mind about being bullied away and still be true to my words? Who says a Sikh is someone who can't change their mind or form a better opinion? Why tie anyones hands with such a ridiculous limitation, as if we are powerless people with no rights or freedoms? Wouldn't our enemies just love for us to be unable to think and reason and get all tangled up with that kind of justification of blame? My deeds do match what I say. I simply am changing my position because I don't accept being intimidated, abused or bullied. Why should I give rude people the satisfaction? What right do you have to insinuate I'm a hypocrite and add to the list of slanders against my person?

But certainly, if all I receive on this forum are personal attacks and slander against my reputation, there would be no point in staying, since I would be effectively silenced anyway. It's unfortunate that after blistering personal attack by a moderator, people defended the moderator and continued the slander against me by referencing all these accusations on other posts, accusing me of negativity and hatred, when all I did was post an unpopular rehitnama to explain my position against visiting Hindu mandirs as part of bibek. So where is the justice in this forum? I didn't even accuse the moderator of being bad for calling me horrible and all these things. The hostility did not come from me. I was attacked for taking a position someone obviously didn't agree with. And the thing, its a debatable position. There are views within the Panth that disagree even with rehitnamay. I just shared my opinion and gave supporting rehitnama to explain why. I can accept that other Sikhs can and do visit Hindu mandirs. But I myself will not support it. If I'm wrong, may Guruji's kirpa explain to me so I understand better.

It's a forum! Debate! Discuss! Explain! Why make personal attacks?

rihq ipAwrI muJ ko isK ipAwrw nwih ]
"I love a Sikh’s disciplined way of life, not the Sikh."

So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.

I have been noticing your angry and negative posts, not with me, but with others. You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.

Also, i hope you do not leave the forums too

1. My posts are not angry and negative. You do nindya of me. If I believe it is wrong to eat from the hand of a non-amritdhari, you may not like or agree with that position, fine. But the position has validity in Gurmat Gursikhi. It's not hateful or negative to support this position if you are trying to conform to Gurmat. Likewise, I am not hateful and horrible to Hindu people. I have stated their temples have presence of Akal Purakh and should be shown utmost respect. I simply took position that it is not Gurmat position for Sikhs to be visiting Hindu temples or Muslim mosques and getting spiritual traditions mixed up in casual way. Not everyone agrees. Obviously it's a minority view. But why abuse it? Why try to make it say what it is not saying? A lot of the Khalsa rehitnamas have to do with segregating the Khalsa. this is practice of bibek/discrimination. Not everyone has to follow that. Not everyone is baptised Khalsa. The most negative thing I said was no one should be badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat, whether it is popular or not. For this I got personally blasted as being all these terrible things as a person. And you people don't even know me as a person. this is not fair, and it is not right.

You need to step back and calm down Harjas Kaur Khalsa.

Why don't you be specific and tell me in what way? I was called many abusive things by your forum moderator, and did not make personal attack in retaliation. Mainly because I was disappointed in this person, not angry. So explain why you are jumping in to accuse me of being negative, angry and in need of calm. All you people are doing is twisting my words to say what I didn't say, and accusing me literally of being a horrible person, a fake Sikh, someone who thinks Gurbani is a joke, distorting and mistranslating the Guru's teachings (when I took the issue to Gurmat Gursikh elders and simply quoted the rehitnama they gave me.)

Why join in personal attack on me Lionchild? Is it because you so strongly disagree with my positions that you also want to invalidate them by personal slander and discrediting of me as a person rather than a debate on the issues themselves? That's like trying to gain spiritual insight by throwing mud.

So I chose to follow another path, and i cannot talk about another way of life now? BTW, thanks for explaining that we are all students and learners of god.

2. Those who are trying to follow a spiritual path are all students. But I explained to you the abuse of the word Sikh/shishya in this context is not correct. Simply because people are trying to learn and be sincere does not make everyone in the world a Sikh. A Sikh by definition is someone committed to Guruji. A Shishya is part of a dual concept, and without the Guru there is no Shishya. To be a shishya, you must belong to the Guru. It's more than mere student. The more correct translation is not student, but disciple. A Sikh is a sincere devotee, he is devoted to following the path/teachings/discipline which the Satguru gives His sikh. For one thing, according to Gurbani, God has the aspect of nirguna, meaning He is unknowable, inconceivable, not manifest to human intellect. To reach God requires a Guru, who is the sargun saroop of Waheguru. A Sikh is not a student of God, but a disciple of Guruji who is the manifest Shabad-Jyote of God. Guru makes God comprehensible to us. That is why we can cross the world-ocean by grace of Guru. He is like the speaking voice of silent God who human beings can understand. Also, not every prophet, not every teacher, not every spiritual person is equal to Satguruji. Gurbani also says that even the gods, like Parvati and Lakshmi and Shiva can take their disciples only so far. But Guru is greater. Guru is greater than Brahma, because Guru is the direct light of Waheguru, and Brahma was created from Waheguru. Gurbani says that Guruji is the only salvation for the age of Kaliyug. The Naam is the boat to carry you across the ocean of maya. Only Guru can give the Naam. So other prophets, teachers, gods, spiritual paths are not equivalent to Guru.

To be tolerant of something does not mean we undermine our own faith or give it second status. To be a disciple, a cheela, that means to you Guru is everything. Otherwise you are lukewarm, and your commitment is divided among other loves and interests. The thread is titled "Do we Sikhs have too much arrogance." Arrogance derives from the word arrogate, from the Latin arro*gate, which literally means "to take for oneself the right." Every spiritual disciple should grasp and cling to their own faith as a means of salvation. No one authentically believes in a half-hearted faith which they doubt and question and undermine and give away for cheapest purpose. You follow a path with all your love and devotion, or you don't follow at all. Unless you take faith into your heart grasping it as a love above all else, you are not really a disciple and you will sell out that which you do not really value. Cling to Guru without looking to the right or to the left. Grasp Him to yourself as your very own. You can't follow two masters. Choose one and truly follow, truly love, arrogate to your heart as if there were no other love in the world. Then you will be a devotee. You do not look at other available husbands and say, well any of these is as good as my love. Your spiritual love is the deepest love. It should be an exclusive love. It should be a sincere love. Fidelity. Loyalty. those are signs of love, not betrayal, not infidelity. Guruji is your Divine Beloved. No one in the world can take His place. If you betray Him, if you give Him up, if you flirt with a million other loves instead of spend time with Him, how far as His beloved do you think you will go?

3. Lionchild, all you have done in your posts and blog is criticize Gursikhi. What in the world is the point? And you accuse me of being negative!!! C'mon man! Is there need to be pointing out all the personal shortcomings of a religious path you rejected? Is that fair to new people who might want to come to this path to read all your criticisms and corrections about it? If you left this path and found a new one, well and good. just start saying positive things you learn about your new path. And here is the thing, people are telling you that your understanding of Sikh positions is not complete, or not correct, yet you still criticize Sikhism based on your flawed understanding, and take the role to correct and teach against the things Sikhs are telling you are wrong understanding. Do you really think in 1 years time you are in a position to teach and correct Sikhs about Sikhism? I ask you honestly, did you ever practice Sikhi according to rehit Maryada and take initiation with Guru as a Sikh? If you did not, how can you say that path is all wrong which you have never even tried to practice? How can that not receive a respectful challenge? And I am showing you respect, not abuse, because I want to win you to my opinion if possible. I want you to be able to understand at least, even if you don't accept.

4. I was happy you came back to the forum, because I was hoping to engage you in discussion really. If you're open-minded enough anyway. I took amrit with Akhand Kirtani Jatha and I know from your posts you're totally opposed to those views. But to me they're very beautiful. And I would be happy to try my best to explain any contentious thing. Again, I neither speak for, nor represent the Jatha, only myself but would be happy to discuss my best understanding about any misconceptions or prejudice. Unfortunately, I think I won't be exactly welcome to do that. At least we can be up front about discrimination on this forum.

5. If my positions are in error, give me your best understanding why, but please don't be abusive to me as a person. And my positions don't speak for or represent the AKJ. So if I'm making a mistake or wrong, that's my error, but I try very hard to be fair to the truth as I best conceive it. And also do not believe only Gianis and scholars can understand Gurmukhi. Guru speaks to His disciples through Gurbani, exactly where they are at. Everybody should be reading Gurbani. Go to the Guru directly, not through some self-important person doing katha explaining it for you or invalidating your approach to Guru Sahib Ji. But by the same token, learn from wiser people and submit your opinion to Panthic teachings. To the best of my knowledge, and never was explained otherwise, I did not take a position which was anti-Panthic, although I have been publically accused of distorting, mistranslating, twisting Gurbani for my own ignorant purpose. The Rehitnamay I cited may reflect a minority opinion, but it's still a PANTHIC position. So it doesn't really amount to abuse of me but to abuse of a minority opinion within the PANTH.

~Please correct my mistakes. But don't trash me as a person.

 

[sachchasoda]

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa,

your words

The most negative thing I said was no one should be badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat, whether it is popular or not.

where in today's world a Sikh is badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat. I see everywhere everybody is doing their freewill. OR IS THERE A PLACE IN TODAY'S WORLD THIS THING IS HAPPENING? We all must know about it.


Sharing information on a forum cannot lead to pressure as no body knows anybody personaly. If one is blindly following what others say on a public forum, that shows this person is totally weak minded. One must use one's God Given discriminative intellect without any pressure from others(this is what True Sikhs DO). If I am not stupid- it seems all are simply sharing information on this forum- (me stupid just thinking loud).

Respected all,

One very important thing I want to share with all- this arrogance against going to temple is useless. When I look at this as a point of view of a friend- WHY ONE MADE A HINDU HIS/HER FRIEND if this person doesn't want to be with this person at CERTAIN occasions of this person's life(usualy the important ones as only the important ones one tends to celebrate in a religious place). ISN'T THIS FUNNY FRIENDSHIP.

If one doesn't want to eat from a non-sikh or a non-amritdhari or a non-similarkindAmritdhari then SIMPLY DON'T BE FRIENDS WITH THEM AT ALL. SIMPLE AS THAT.

Just a reminder I am only sharing my views on the subject based on the continued discussion.

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karni

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

your words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa

The most negative thing I said was no one should be badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat, whether it is popular or not.
-------------------------------------------------
where in today's world a Sikh is badgered, pressured or shamed into accepting an opinion against Gurmat. I see everywhere everybody is doing their freewill. OR IS THERE A PLACE IN TODAY'S WORLD THIS THING IS HAPPENING? We all must know about it.

The better question is where in the world is a Sikh NOT badgered, shamed, pressured into compromising on principles of Gurmat? Everywhere in the world is pressure to conform to the world, to cut hairs, to remove dastaar, to avoid nitnam, to remove panj kakkars, to have relations with person not your spouse. Everywhere maya is giving this pressure because that is the nature of temptation and the fake world.

Sharing information on a forum cannot lead to pressure as no body knows anybody personaly.

We weren't discussing pressure on a forum, we were discussing the pressuring, shaming and badgering of Sikh kids who had REFUSED for personal reasons NOT to go to Hindu mandir.

As to the forum, yes, I believe blistering personal attack and invalidation with assassination of the charater of someone who posts is a pressure to silence and shame that voice from having any legitimate opinion. So yes, this kind of thing can also be done online, although the original comment had to do with real life situations where family and friends would pressure someone into doing something they feel is not right.

One must use one's God Given discriminative intellect without any pressure from others(this is what True Sikhs DO).

True Sikhs are human beings who have a right not to be unduly influenced by the prejudices of others. Although in this maya world, Guruji is testing all of us and our resolve to commit to Gursikhi absolutely against the odds. What true Sikhs do, and what our kids do and are influenced by may be different things, realistically. It is our duty to promote principles of Gurmat, not expect kids will be able to resist every influence contrary to Gursikhi.

One very important thing I want to share with all- this arrogance against going to temple is useless. When I look at this as a point of view of a friend- WHY ONE MADE A HINDU HIS/HER FRIEND if this person doesn't want to be with this person at CERTAIN occasions of this person's life(usualy the important ones as only the important ones one tends to celebrate in a religious place). ISN'T THIS FUNNY FRIENDSHIP.

You are altering essential facts. The discussion was about a casual invitation to visit Hindu mandir as equally as Sikh Gurudwara. I have already agreed to the position to attend Hindu mandir for important life events of a friend such as wedding and funeral would not be of the same character as interchangeably visiting Hindu mandir and Gurudwara, as this poster said his mother is a Hindu, his father is a Sikh, and his friend comes to Gurudwara all the time. And Hindu friend resented that no one accepted her equal invitation. I did advocate kindness to this girl and spoke against mistreating her or saying negative things about her faith. But that the kids should gently explain reasons why they felt uncomfortable to visit Hindu mandir. It is their right after all, NOT to go if they don't want to. And that was the point.

If one doesn't want to eat from a non-sikh or a non-amritdhari or a non-similarkindAmritdhari then SIMPLY DON'T BE FRIENDS WITH THEM AT ALL. SIMPLE AS THAT.

It isn't a matter of what one wants to do. Gurmat Gursikhi has a principle of bibek where you are not supposed to. One thing, it's not just accepting food from an amritdhari, but this discipline is also about accepting food which has been made into langar by an amritdhari who is japping Naam while preparing the food. It's not a rejection of anyone, it's a purification process. If anything, how much easier to go to fast food restaurant and care less? It's a discipline, not a hatred of others. The key is you don't want to consume the vibration of negative tendancies and influences, like food from hand of a smoker, food from hand of an atheist, food from hand of someone living an immoral lifestyle. You don't want to pull yourself into the temptation of those kind of thoughts. This article may explain it better. And I agree, it's better for Khalsa to avoid negative influence of non-Khalsa friendships, especially the kids. You can be friendly, but don't be overly familiar and start adopting those non-Khalsa values and influences.

http://naam-jor.blogspot.com/2007/01/sarbloh-bibek.html

Apart from sarbloh bibek which is a hard discipline, consider these quotes from the SGPC Rehit Maryada, which is actually the most liberal. They all have to do with making a point that Khalsa should keep distinct Identity, not participate in Hindu rituals or customs or associate with elements antagonistic to the Panth like RSS, (political realities are acknowledged). Mind you these apply only to amritdhari Sikhs. But they do apply, and if someone has received amrit, they have to follow the Rehit Maryada of the Panj Piare they received amrit from. Taksali Rehit Maryada and AKJ Rehit Maryada are much stricter and include supportive Rehitnamay which are only briefly alluded to in SGPC Maryada. But even in SGPC version, it is clear that Khalsa are to separate themselves from common social practices. Khalsa live a life of discipline, not popularity. It's the opposite of arrogance. You can't eat the things everybody around you in school or work are eating. And it's very humbling sometimes to go without food instead of breaking the rehit. And more than that, it's one of the most deliberately misrepresented practices and a cause for social rejection and abuse by other Sikhs, many of whom eat meat and smoke and have no spiritual practice at all. No one gives you any special respect to keep this discipline. And it does have basis in Gurmat Gursikhi.

a. Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.

b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.

...(Most, though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise...)

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.

e. The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiments of any person professing another religion.

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_four.html

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]q. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. One who dyes his beard; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.); [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]r. After this sermon, one from among the five beloved ones should perform the Ardas. [/SIZE]

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html
[/SIZE]

~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji

 

[sachchasoda]

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa

Aren't these two things totaly contradictory to each other:

I have already agreed to the position to attend Hindu mandir for important life events of a friend such as wedding and funeral

and

They all have to do with making a point that Khalsa should keep distinct Identity, not participate in Hindu rituals or customs or associate with elements antagonistic to the Panth.......

just thinking out loud and I am not altering anything. Just stating what I think and what I Practice.

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna Ji.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Being a support to a friend in time of need during significant life events is not the same thing as casually mixing two religious paths by attending both Hindu mandir and Gurudwara.

For one thing, as a Sikh, you can't take prasad offered to idols. You can't sing bhajans praising Hindu gods. For what purpose are you even there? Because you're friend wants you to be there?

How is it contradictory if your friend is attending a funeral or wedding, you would have a purpose to support him/her without participating in practices contrary to Gursikhi?

A wedding or funeral is an unusual event. This isn't the same as someone whose father is Sikh, whose mother is Hindu and who attends both Hindu mandir and Gurudwara interchangeably, or whose Hindu friend always attends Gurudwara and Sikh events and wants to know why Sikhs don't do likewise with Hindu mandir. One is mixing traditions and exposing a Sikh to anti-Gurmat influences, and the other is being a friend in time of need as a friend while remaining aloof from all such practices. They are entirely different scenarios as per the original topic thread.

 

[sachchasoda]

Not in my view Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.


Anyways while I was reading your post

It's not a rejection of anyone, it's a purification process. If anything, how much easier to go to fast food restaurant and care less? It's a discipline, not a hatred of others. The key is you don't want to consume the vibration of negative tendancies and influences, like food from hand of a smoker, food from hand of an atheist, food from hand of someone living an immoral lifestyle. You don't want to pull yourself into the temptation of those kind of thoughts.

I was thinking about PURIFICATION. just remembered Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Bani:
Page 951
sloku mÚ 1 ]
sqI pwpu kir squ kmwih ]
gur dIiKAw Gir dyvx jwih ]
iesqrI purKY KitAY Bwau ]
BwvY Awvau BwvY jwau ]
swsqu bydu n mwnY koie ]
Awpo AwpY pUjw hoie ]
kwjI hoie kY bhY inAwie ]
Pyry qsbI kry Kudwie ]
vFI lY kY hku gvwey ]
jy ko puCY qw piV suxwey ]
qurk mMqRü kin irdY smwih ]
lok muhwvih cwVI Kwih ]
caukw dy kY sucw hoie ]
AYsw ihMdU vyKhu koie ]
jogI igrhI jtw ibBUq ]
AwgY pwCY rovih pUq ]
jogu n pwieAw jugiq gvweI ]
ikqu kwrix isir CweI pweI ]
nwnk kil kw eyhu prvwxu ]
Awpy AwKxu Awpy jwxu ]1]

Page 1195
bsMqu ihMfolu Gru 2
<> siqgur pRswid ]
mwqw jUTI ipqw BI jUTw jUTy hI Pl lwgy ]
Awvih jUTy jwih BI jUTy jUTy mrih ABwgy ]1]
khu pMifq sUcw kvnu Twau ]
jhW bYis hau Bojnu Kwau ]1] rhwau ]
ijhbw jUTI bolq jUTw krn nyqR siB jUTy ]
ieMdRI kI jUiT auqris nwhI bRhm Agin ky lUTy ]2]
Agin BI jUTI pwnI jUTw jUTI bYis pkwieAw ]
jUTI krCI prosn lwgw jUTy hI bYiT KwieAw ]3]
gobru jUTw caukw jUTw jUTI dInI kwrw ]
kih kbIr qyeI nr sUcy swcI prI ibcwrw ]4]1]7]


thinking how and why many people are going totally the opposite way what Guru Ji is telling us to follow.

again when I am supposed to see Akaal Purkh in all how can I differentiate between a hindu hand and a muslim hand and a sikh hand? How can I figure out who sowed the wheat I am eating? who harvested it, who packed it? what water was used by the Farmer- HINDU/MUSLIM/CHRISTIAN/ATHIEST? How can I distinguish who installed the wires I am using to send my message to SPN- CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM/BAHAI/OTHER/ATHIEST?
And Gurbani tells me: SSGS page 25

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 Gru 4 ]
qU drIAwau dwnw bInw mY mCulI kYsy AMqu lhw ]
jh jh dyKw qh qh qU hY quJ qy inksI PUit mrw ]1]
n jwxw myau n jwxw jwlI ]
jw duKu lwgY qw quJY smwlI ]1] rhwau ]
qU BrpUir jwinAw mY dUir ]
jo kCu krI su qyrY hdUir ]
qU dyKih hau mukir pwau ]
qyrY kMim n qyrY nwie ]2]
jyqw dyih qyqw hau Kwau ]
ibAw dru nwhI kY dir jwau ]
nwnku eyk khY Ardwis ]
jIau ipMfu sBu qyrY pwis ]3]
Awpy nyVY dUir Awpy hI Awpy mMiJ imAwnuo ]
Awpy vyKY suxy Awpy hI kudriq kry jhwnuo ]
jo iqsu BwvY nwnkw hukmu soeI prvwnuo ]4]31]

confusing

Saadh Sangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna ji

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

qurk mMqRü kin irdY smwih ] (951-15, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
turak mantar kan ridai samaahi.
The Muslim scriptures are in their ears and in their hearts.
lok muhwvih cwVI Kwih ] (951-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
lok muhaaveh chaarhee khaahi.
They plunder the people, and engage in gossip and flattery.
caukw dy kY sucw hoie ] (951-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
cha-ukaa day kai suchaa ho-ay.
They anoint their kitchens to try to become pure.
AYsw ihMdU vyKhu koie ] (951-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
aisaa hindoo vaykhhu ko-ay.
Behold, such is the Hindu.
jogI igrhI jtw ibBUq ] (951-16, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
jogee girhee jataa bibhoot.
The Yogi, with matted hair and ashes on his body, has become a householder.
AwgY pwCY rovih pUq ] (951-17, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
aagai paachhai roveh poot.
The children weep in front of him and behind him.
jogu n pwieAw jugiq gvweI ] (951-17, rwmklI, mÚ 1)
jog na paa-i-aa jugat gavaa-ee.
He does not attain Yoga - he has lost his way.

I will assume the operative part of the shabad relating to the issue of dietary bibek is they anoint their kitchens trying to become pure. First one must consider the entire context, and not simply refer to a line here or there for understanding. It's talking about inner corruption such as plundering people and ignoring weeping children while attempting to engage in purifying practices.

BrIAY hQu pYru qnu dyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
bharee-ai hath pair tan dayh.
When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,
pwxI DoqY auqrsu Kyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
paanee Dhotai utras khayh.
water can wash away the dirt.
mUq plIqI kpVu hoie ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
moot paleetee kaparh ho-ay.
When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine,
dy swbUxu leIAY Ehu Doie ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
day saaboon la-ee-ai oh Dho-ay.
soap can wash them clean.
BrIAY miq pwpw kY sMig ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
bharee-ai mat paapaa kai sang.
But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,
Ehu DopY nwvY kY rMig ] (4-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
oh Dhopai naavai kai rang.
it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name.

If one doesn't wash one's hands it introduces bacteria into food. So it is a health practice to keep your hands clean when touching and preparing food. Also, the kind of diet you eat has a profound effect on the health of the body, and in subtle ways on states of mind by affecting brain chemistry and hormonal balance influencing mood. If you are a vegetarian, you don't want meat contaminating your food. We've come to a point in society today where all kinds of garbage contaminate the food. You know about the mad cow disease epidemic? Well, cows are vegetarian, yet it was common practice to put in commercial feed rotting carcasses of dead beef, so the cows were ingesting dead cows, and thats what got them sick and spread the disease. Why would society be so unclean, so insane in its practices? What tolerance encouraged this mentality?

In the month and a half since a case of mad cow disease was discovered in Washington State, Americans have been learning more than they wanted to know about what cattle in this country have been eating.
Though consumers may imagine bucolic scenes of nursing calves and cows munching on grass or hay, much of American agriculture no longer works that way. For years, calves have been fed cow's blood instead of milk, and cattle feed has been allowed to contain composted wastes from chicken coops, including feathers, spilled feed and even feces...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9505EED7103BF935A35751C0A9629C8B63

First of all discernment is a spiritual practice that allows a person to use common sense. Bibek strictly prohibits meat-eating so ingesting of diseased and contaminated food like this would be avoided. Check labels of foods to avoid secondary contamination of things like gelatin or rennet which contain ground fish bones, pigs hoofs and cow's stomachs found in things like cheese and yoghurt. If you want to talk about actual arrogance, consider science which develops all these weird and ghastly permutations of food products in order to cater to business industries that care nothing for the disease promoting qualities of the food they contaminate.

Traditionally, the first step in making cheese was to kill a newly-born, milk-fed calf and remove its stomach to make rennet. The rennet was derived from the inner lining of the abomasum, the fourth stomach of the calf or any other animal classified as a ruminant. After scraping the stomach, the cheesemaker would dry it in the sun by stretching it on a rack. After the stomach was dry, it was cut it into squares or strips. Before the strips or squares were used, they were soaked in cold water and washed thoroughly before being placed in milk.

http://www.vegparadise.com/news32.html

It's true almost everything in the world is impure, and our attempts at spiritual purification are futile. Guruji gives us the Naam, through which the whole body-mind-atma are purified. Bibek is first about about avoiding jhooth. Since the atma is encased in physical form, the nature of body-mind have a direct effect on one's spiritual jeevan. Bibek is a practice not only of rejecting food from non-amritdharis, but a bibeki Singh will reject food from amritdhari. The food is supposed to be prepared in a special way by chanting Naam while you prepare it. So bibek is secondly about putting the Naam, the power of spiritual liberation into the food itself so it has power to wash the mind and body.

so ikau mnhu ivswrIAY jw ky jIA prwx ] (16-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
so ki-o manhu visaaree-ai jaa kay jee-a paraan.
How can you forget the One who created your soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life?
iqsu ivxu sBu ApivqRü hY jyqw pYnxu Kwxu ] (16-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tis vin sabh apvitar hai jaytaa painan khaan.
Without Him, all that we wear and eat is impure.
hoir glW siB kUVIAw quDu BwvY prvwxu ]4]5] (16-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
hor galaaN sabh koorhee-aa tuDh bhaavai parvaan. ||4||5||
Everything else is false. Whatever pleases Your Will is acceptable. ||4||5||

kuVImwr msMd jo mIxy kw pRswid ley ju ien ky hwQ kw jnm gvwvih bwd]20]
kurreemaar masa(n)dh jo meenae kaa prasaadh leae j ein kae haathh kaa janam gavaavehi baadha||20||
Do not eat food made by those who are excommunicated from the Panth The life of those who take from their hands will go avail.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

corw jwrw rMfIAw kutxIAw dIbwxu ] vydInw kI dosqI vydInw kw Kwxu ] (790-1, sUhI, mÚ 1)
choraa jaaraa randee-aa kutnee-aa deebaan. vaydeenaa kee dostee vaydeenaa kaa khaan.
Thieves, adulterers, prostitutes and pimps, make friendships with the unrighteous, and eat with the unrighteous.
isPqI swr n jwxnI sdw vsY sYqwnu ] (790-2, sUhI, mÚ 1)
siftee saar na jaannee sadaa vasai saitaan.
They do not know the value of the Lord's Praises, and Satan is always with them.
gdhu cMdin KaulIAY BI swhU isau pwxu ] (790-2, sUhI, mÚ 1)
gadahu chandan kha-ulee-ai bhee saahoo si-o paan.
If a donkey is anointed with sandalwood paste, he still loves to roll in the dirt.

Yes, the whole world is impure. But the Guru's Sikh is set apart from the world and given the Naam, the door to liberation because he belongs to Guru. Naam is what will purify the mind and body.

mwqw jUTI ipqw BI jUTw jUTy hI Pl lwgy ] (1195-5, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
maataa joothee pitaa bhee joothaa joothay hee fal laagay.
The mother is impure, and the father is impure. The fruit they produce is impure.
Awvih jUTy jwih BI jUTy jUTy mrih ABwgy ]1] (1195-6, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
aavahi joothay jaahi bhee joothay joothay mareh abhaagay. ||1||
Impure they come, and impure they go. The unfortunate ones die in impurity. ||1||
khu pMifq sUcw kvnu Twau ] (1195-6, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
kaho pandit soochaa kavan thaa-o.
Tell me, O Pandit, O religious scholar, which place is uncontaminated?
jhW bYis hau Bojnu Kwau ]1] rhwau ] (1195-6, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
jahaaN bais ha-o bhojan khaa-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Where should I sit to eat my meal? ||1||Pause||
ijhbw jUTI bolq jUTw krn nyqR siB jUTy ] (1195-7, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
jihbaa joothee bolat joothaa karan naytar sabh joothay.
The tongue is impure, and its speech is impure. The eyes and ears are totally impure.
ieMdRI kI jUiT auqris nwhI bRhm Agin ky lUTy ]2] (1195-7, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
indree kee jooth utras naahee barahm agan kay loothay. ||2||
The impurity of the sexual organs does not depart; the Brahmin is burnt by the fire. ||2||
Agin BI jUTI pwnI jUTw jUTI bYis pkwieAw ] (1195-8, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
agan bhee joothee paanee joothaa joothee bais pakaa-i-aa.
The fire is impure, and the water is impure. The place where you sit and cook is impure.
jUTI krCI prosn lwgw jUTy hI bYiT KwieAw ]3] (1195-8, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
joothee karchhee parosan laagaa joothay hee baith khaa-i-aa. ||3||
Impure is the ladle which serves the food. Impure is the one who sits down to eat it. ||3||
gobru jUTw caukw jUTw jUTI dInI kwrw ] (1195-9, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
gobar joothaa cha-ukaa joothaa joothee deenee kaaraa.
Impure is the cow dung, and impure is the kitchen square. Impure are the lines that mark it off.
kih kbIr qyeI nr sUcy swcI prI ibcwrw ]4]1]7] (1195-9, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi kabeer tay-ee nar soochay saachee paree bichaaraa. ||4||1||7||
Says Kabeer, they alone are pure, who have obtained pure understanding. ||4||1||7||

Kabeer says they alone are pure who obtain pure understanding. So who are those pure people and what is that pure understanding? Later the pauri goes on to say,

gur kw sbdu kwtY koit krm ]3]1] (1195-15, bsMqu ihMfol, Bgq rwmwnµd jI)
gur kaa sabad kaatai kot karam. ||3||1||
The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||

So the word of the Guru's shabad is itself the purifier that makes pure people. The Naam makes mind and body pure.

ijn sbid gurU suix mMinAw iqn min iDAwieAw hir soie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
jin sabad guroo sun mani-aa tin man Dhi-aa-i-aa har so-ay.
Those who hear and believe in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, meditate on the Lord in their minds.
Anidnu BgqI riqAw mnu qnu inrmlu hoie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
an-din bhagtee rati-aa man tan nirmal ho-ay.
Night and day, they are steeped in devotion; their minds and bodies become pure.
kUVw rMgu ksuMB kw ibnis jwie duKu roie ] (27-19, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
koorhaa rang kasumbh kaa binas jaa-ay dukh ro-ay.
The color of the world is false and weak; when it washes away, people cry out in pain.
ijsu AMdir nwm pRgwsu hY Ehu sdw sdw iQru hoie ]3] (27-19, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
jis andar naam pargaas hai oh sadaa sadaa thir ho-ay. ||3||
Those who have the Radiant Light of the Naam within, become steady and stable, forever and ever. ||3||

So in context of Gurbani, the Naam actually is what washes the mind and body of spiritual filth and all uncleaness. So the practice of bibek takes only that food which has been made into langar by an amritdhari who is also a Naam abiyaasi who is japping Naam while preparing the food. This practice is a way of intensifying the purification properties of the Naam by ingesting vibration of the Lord's praise with every breath and with every morsel of food.

siB rs imTy mMinAY suixAY swloxy ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
sabh ras mithay mani-ai suni-ai saalonay.
Believing, all tastes are sweet. Hearing, the salty flavors are tasted;
Kt qursI muiK bolxw mwrx nwd kIey ] (16-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
khat tursee mukh bolnaa maaran naad kee-ay.
chanting with one's mouth, the spicy flavors are savored. All these spices have been made from the Sound-current of the Naad.
CqIh AMimRq Bwau eyku jw kau ndir kryie ]1] (16-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
chhateeh amrit bhaa-o ayk jaa ka-o nadar karay-i. ||1||
The thirty-six flavors of ambrosial nectar are in the Love of the One Lord; they are tasted only by one who is blessed by His Glance of Grace. ||1||
bwbw horu Kwxw KusI KuAwru ] (16-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa hor khaanaa khusee khu-aar.
O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false.
ijqu KwDY qnu pIVIAY mn mih clih ivkwr ]1] rhwau ] (16-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jit khaaDhai tan peerhee-ai man meh chaleh vikaar. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||

Gurbani is saying chanting with one's mouth gives a spice, a flavor from the Sound current of the Naad, and eating other foods give false pleasure which ruins the body and is an opening for wickedness and corruption to enter the mind.

qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tan soochaa so aakhee-ai jis meh saachaa naa-o.
That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.
BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
bhai sach raatee dayhuree jihvaa sach su-aa-o.
One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness,
scI ndir inhwlIAY bhuiV n pwvY qwau ]2] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
sachee nadar nihaalee-ai bahurh na paavai taa-o. ||2||
is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||
swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
saachay tay pavnaa bha-i-aa pavnai tay jal ho-ay.
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.
jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jal tay taribhavan saaji-aa ghat ghat jot samo-ay.
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.
inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
nirmal mailaa naa thee-ai sabad ratay pat ho-ay. ||3||
The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||

Gurbani is very clear that Naam is what cleanses the pollutions.

Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] (53-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
an-din sach salaahnaa sachay kay gun gaa-o.
Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.
scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] (53-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
sach khaanaa sach painnaa sachay sachaa naa-o. ||2||
True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2||
swis igrwis n ivsrY sPlu mUriq guru Awip ] (53-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
saas giraas na visrai safal moorat gur aap.
With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.
gur jyvfu Avru n idseI AwT phr iqsu jwip ] (53-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
gur jayvad avar na dis-ee aath pahar tis jaap.
None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.

Here Gurbani is talking about saas giras simran, where every breath (in breath and out breath with Waheguru mantar and in every morsal of food (langar of food prepared with Naam abiyaasi japping Naam to put Shabad current into the food).

qU srb jIAw pRiqpwlhI lyKY sws igrws ] (20-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
too sarab jee-aa partipaalahee laykhai saas giraas.
You are the Cherisher of all beings; You keep the account of our breaths and morsels of food.
AMqir gurmuiK qU vsih ijau BwvY iqau inrjwis ]1] (20-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
antar gurmukh too vaseh ji-o bhaavai ti-o nirjaas. ||1||
You abide within the Gurmukh. As it pleases You, You decide our allotment. ||1||
jIAry rwm jpq mnu mwnu ] (20-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jee-aray raam japat man maan.
O my soul, chant the Name of the Lord; the mind will be pleased and appeased.

sohMdVo hB Twie koie n idsY fUjVo ] (80-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
sohandarho habh thaa-ay ko-ay na disai doojrho.
He is Beautiful in all places; I do not see any other at all.
Kul@Vy kpwt nwnk siqgur Bytqy ]1] (80-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
khulHrhay kapaat naanak satgur bhayttay. ||1||
Meeting with the True Guru, O Nanak, the doors are opened wide. ||1||
CMqu ] (80-14)
chhant.
Chant:

qyry bcn AnUp Apwr sMqn AwDwr bwxI bIcwrIAY jIau ] (80-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
tayray bachan anoop apaar santan aaDhaar banee beechaaree-ai jee-o.
Your Word is Incomparable and Infinite. I contemplate the Word of Your Bani, the Support of the Saints.
ismrq sws igrws pUrn ibsuAws ikau mnhu ibswrIAY jIau ] (80-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
simrat saas giraas pooran bisu-aas ki-o manhu bisaaree-ai jee-o.
I remember Him in meditation with every breath and morsel of food, with perfect faith. How could I forget Him from my mind?
ikau mnhu byswrIAY inmK nhI twrIAY guxvMq pRwn hmwry ] (80-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
ki-o manhu baysaaree-ai nimakh nahee taaree-ai gunvant paraan hamaaray.
How could I forget Him from my mind, even for an instant? He is the Most Worthy; He is my very life!

Here Gurbani is talking about all the doors being wide open. These are the spiritual centers of the body and includes the tenth door/dasam duar all being opened wide by the Satguru, and with practice of saas giras simran japping Gurmantra with every breath, and every bite of food. So Gurbani is clear that spiritual practice of bibek belongs to Gursikhi as a means of purification and liberation.

pihrY bwgw kir iesnwnw coAw cMdn lwey ] (213-1, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
pahirai baagaa kar isnaanaa cho-aa chandan laa-ay.
You wear white clothes and take cleansing baths, and anoint yourself with sandalwood oil.
inrBau inrMkwr nhI cIinAw ijau hsqI nwvwey ]3] (213-1, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
nirbha-o nirankaar nahee cheeni-aa ji-o hastee naavaa-ay. ||3||
But you do not remember the Fearless, Formless Lord - you are like an elephant bathing in the mud. ||3||
jau hoie ik®pwl q siqguru mylY siB suK hir ky nwey ] (213-2, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
ja-o ho-ay kirpaal ta satgur maylai sabh sukh har kay naa-ay.
When God becomes merciful, He leads you to meet the True Guru; all peace is in the Name of the Lord.

myry mn guru guru guru sd krIAY ] (213-3, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
mayray man gur gur gur sad karee-ai.
O my mind, dwell always upon the Guru, Guru, Guru.
rqn jnmu sPlu guir kIAw drsn kau bilhrIAY ]1] rhwau ] (213-4, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
ratan janam safal gur kee-aa darsan ka-o baliharee-ai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The Guru has made the jewel of this human life prosperous and fruitful. I am a sacrifice to the Blessed Vision of His Darshan. ||1||Pause||
jyqy sws gRws mnu lyqw qyqy hI gun gweIAY ] (213-4, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
jaytay saas garaas man laytaa taytay hee gun gaa-ee-ai.
As many breaths and morsels as you take, O my mind - so many times, sing His Glorious Praises.
jau hoie dYAwlu siqguru Apunw qw ieh miq buiD pweIAY ]1] (213-5, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
ja-o ho-ay dai-aal satgur apunaa taa ih mat buDh paa-ee-ai. ||1||
When the True Guru becomes merciful, then this wisdom and understanding is obtained. ||1||
myry mn nwim ley jm bMD qy CUtih srb suKw suK pweIAY ] (213-6, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 5)
mayray man naam la-ay jam banDh tay chhooteh sarab sukhaa sukh paa-ee-ai.
O my mind, taking the Naam, you shall be released from the bondage of death, and the peace of all peace will be found.

qU BrpUir jwinAw mY dUir ] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
too bharpoor jaani-aa mai door.
You are present everywhere. I had thought that You were far away.
jo kCu krI su qyrY hdUir ] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jo kachh karee so tayrai hadoor.
Whatever I do, I do in Your Presence.
qU dyKih hau mukir pwau ] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
too daykheh ha-o mukar paa-o.
You see all my actions, and yet I deny them.
qyrY kMim n qyrY nwie ]2] (25-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tayrai kamm na tayrai naa-ay. ||2||
I have not worked for You, or Your Name. ||2||
jyqw dyih qyqw hau Kwau ] (25-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jaytaa deh taytaa ha-o khaa-o.
Whatever You give me, that is what I eat.
ibAw dru nwhI kY dir jwau ] (25-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
bi-aa dar naahee kai dar jaa-o.
There is no other door-unto which door should I go?
nwnku eyk khY Ardwis ] (25-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
naanak ayk kahai ardaas.
Nanak offers this one prayer:
jIau ipMfu sBu qyrY pwis ]3] (25-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jee-o pind sabh tayrai paas. ||3||
this body and soul are totally Yours. ||3||
Awpy nyVY dUir Awpy hI Awpy mMiJ imAwnuo ] (25-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
aapay nayrhai door aapay hee aapay manjh mi-aano.
He Himself is near, and He Himself is far away; He Himself is in-between.
Awpy vyKY suxy Awpy hI kudriq kry jhwnuo ] (25-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
aapay vaykhai sunay aapay hee kudrat karay jahaano.
He Himself beholds, and He Himself listens. By His Creative Power, He created the world.

Guru gives you Naam to eat, to breathe, to open all your bodies doors of perception. The door of Naam/praise is that which you should go through. Gurbani cannot contradict itself. If you research there are also supporting Rehitnamay which support bibek.

Various Puraatan rehitnamas also make clear the importance of Bibek for a Sikh. Bhai Daya Singh rehitnaama contains the following bachans: "Bhojanaad Moundit naal chhakey, Tankhaiyaa" or One who eats food with a Mona/non-Sikh, is guilty of a breach of conduct (Piara Singh Padam’s Rehitnamay pg. 72); also "Patr sarb loh kay, bhougtay asan souaad....loh patr mai chhakai," meaning: using utensils of sarbloh, one eats tasty food...one should eat in sarb loh utensils" (Padam, 75)

The Rehitnama Hazooree by Chaupa Singh says "Guru kaa Sikh...apaNy langar rasoee vich Sikh rakhey. Hukaie, Topeeaa, BhaadNee, chor, yaar, jooaybaaz, kurehiteeyaa na rakhai" meaining "A Guru ka Sikh...should keep only a Sikh in his langar and kitchen. Smokers, hat-wearers, shaven people, theieves, gamblers, kurehitees should not be kept" (Padam, 85).

In Sau Sakhee, sakhee #8’s rehitnama it says clearly "So Sikh gur ka janeeay, Monay ann na khai" meaning: such is a Sikh of The Guru who does not eat the food of Monay/Non-Sikhs.

http://www.tapoban.org/langar.htm

jy kurihqIey jg drswvq pwhul pIie kukrm kmwvq ] iqn soN vrqx nwihM imlwvY rih inrlyp prm suK pwvY ]
jae kurehitheeeae jag dharasaavath paahul peee kukaram kamaavath || thin so(n) varathan naahi(n) milaavai rehi niralaep param sukh paavai ||
Those who after taking Amrit but commit a cardinal sin; Their company should be avoided (until they retake Amrit) to maintain the Guru's blessings.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

 

[sachchasoda]

Respected Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji,
Your message includes a lot of misinterpretations of Gurbani and mixed messages.

If I am understanding the purpose though- you are saying that everything can be purifed by NAAM VIBRATIONS, but still one must avoid the jooth.

Why avoid it when you are so purified?
Why avoid it when ALL IS WAHEGURU?
Why avoid it when Guru Ang Sang all the time to take care of you?
Why avoid it when you can purify it by the Naam Vibrations?



SadhSangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna Ji.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Your message includes a lot of misinterpretations of Gurbani and mixed messages.

Why don't you prove me wrong, and not just make a claim. How is this misinterpretation?

If I am understanding the purpose though- you are saying that everything can be purifed by NAAM VIBRATIONS, but still one must avoid the jooth.

nrml sbdu inrml hY bwxI ] (121-1, mwJ, mÚ 3)
nirmal sabad nirmal hai banee.
The Word of the Shabad is Immaculate and Pure; the Bani of the Word is Pure.

inrml joiq sB mwih smwxI ] (121-2, mwJ, mÚ 3)
nirmal jot sabh maahi samaanee.
The Light which is pervading among all is Immaculate.

inrml bwxI hir swlwhI jip hir inrmlu mYlu gvwvixAw ]1] (121-2, mwJ, mÚ 3)
nirmal banee har saalaahee jap har nirmal mail gavaavni-aa. ||1||
So praise the Immaculate Word of the Lord's Bani; chanting the Immaculate Name of the Lord, all filth is washed away. ||1||

haumY mYlu gur sbdy DovY ] (121-8, mwJ, mÚ 3)
ha-umai mail gur sabday Dhovai.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the filth of egotism is washed away.

inrml vwjY Anhd Duin bwxI dir scY soBw pwvixAw ]4] (121-8, mwJ, mÚ 3)
nirmal vaajai anhad Dhun banee dar sachai sobhaa paavni-aa. ||4||
The Immaculate Bani and the Unstruck Melody of the Sound-current vibrate, and in the True Court, honor is obtained. ||4||

Naam is the Purifier. Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad. Sound is a wave. Thus it is vibration on a deeper level of reality.
Yes, we have to live a disciplined life and avoid Jhooth. Otherwise people will get physically sick from carelessness. You need to have common sense. We have to avoid evil or we become corrupt. We have to live a state of purification inner and outer. Guruji doesn't live our life for us. He gives us Naam, we have to make use of it. After receiving Gurmantar if you never jap Naam, will you be purified just because Akal Purakh is in you? Akal Purakh is in the child molester too. But unless he stops doing evil deeds, he can't get pure. You have to live your life in such a way that you avoid pollutions inner and outer. Guruji says he loves the rehit, not the Sikh. It is the disciplined life that Guru loves.

Did I not quote:

BrIAY hQu pYru qnu dyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
bharee-ai hath pair tan dayh.
When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,
pwxI DoqY auqrsu Kyh ] (4-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
paanee Dhotai utras khayh.
water can wash away the dirt.
mUq plIqI kpVu hoie ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
moot paleetee kaparh ho-ay.
When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine,
dy swbUxu leIAY Ehu Doie ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
day saaboon la-ee-ai oh Dho-ay.
soap can wash them clean.
BrIAY miq pwpw kY sMig ] (4-12, jpu, mÚ 1)
bharee-ai mat paapaa kai sang.
But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,
Ehu DopY nwvY kY rMig ] (4-13, jpu, mÚ 1)
oh Dhopai naavai kai rang.
it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name.

Why avoid it when you are so purified?

Why avoid it when ALL IS WAHEGURU?
Why avoid it when Guru Ang Sang all the time to take care of you?
Why avoid it when you can purify it by the Naam Vibrations?

Veerji, everything that exists in material reality has the property of duality. So, everything that exists is both an object in time and space...and it is also a wave which at higher dimensions is sound and light. Just because something has a dual nature, doesn't mean it is manifesting as sound and light. Objects and things in the world manifest as what they are. A virus is still a virus which can cause disease. A tiger is still a tiger which can attack and kill you. What kind of fool would go around in the world and say, "All is God. I am God. Guru Ang Sang will take care of me. And take no care to protect himself from harms that exist in the material world? Are you saying there is no evil because all is Waheguru? Are you saying evil people don't have an evil effect that we should avoid? Purification is a process. People become pure. But until someone is jeevan mukt, he can spiritually fall from that great height. Most of us aren't even close. So yes, influences can bring us down.

iqsu ivxu sBu ApivqRü hY jyqw pYnxu Kwxu ] (16-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tis vin sabh apvitar hai jaytaa painan khaan.
Without Him, all that we wear and eat is impure.

But Gurbani says the Naam is what will lead us to liberation. Gurbani says the Naam will help us conquer our panj vikaars. Gurbani says the only thing of true value in this world is the Naam.

ijn sbid gurU suix mMinAw iqn min iDAwieAw hir soie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
jin sabad guroo sun mani-aa tin man Dhi-aa-i-aa har so-ay.
Those who hear and believe in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, meditate on the Lord in their minds.
Anidnu BgqI riqAw mnu qnu inrmlu hoie ] (27-18, sRIrwgu, mÚ 3)
an-din bhagtee rati-aa man tan nirmal ho-ay.
Night and day, they are steeped in devotion; their minds and bodies become pure.

mnu mYlw hY dUjY Bwie ] (121-11, mwJ, mÚ 3)
man mailaa hai doojai bhaa-ay.
The mind is polluted by the love of duality.

mYlw caukw mYlY Qwie ] (121-11, mwJ, mÚ 3)
mailaa cha-ukaa mailai thaa-ay.
Filthy is that kitchen, and filthy is that dwelling;

mYlw Kwie iPir mYlu vDwey mnmuK mYlu duKu pwvixAw ]7] (121-12, mwJ, mÚ 3)
mailaa khaa-ay fir mail vaDhaa-ay manmukh mail dukh paavni-aa. ||7||
eating filth, the self-willed manmukhs become even more filthy. Because of their filth, they suffer in pain. ||7||

mYly inrml siB hukim sbwey ] (121-12, mwJ, mÚ 3)
mailay nirmal sabh hukam sabaa-ay.
The filthy, and the immaculate as well, are all subject to the Hukam of God's Command.

sy inrml jo hir swcy Bwey ] (121-13, mwJ, mÚ 3)
say nirmal jo har saachay bhaa-ay.
They alone are immaculate, who are pleasing to the True Lord.

nwnk nwmu vsY mn AMqir gurmuiK mYlu cukwvixAw ]8]19]20] (121-13, mwJ, mÚ 3)
naanak naam vasai man antar gurmukh mail chukaavani-aa. ||8||19||20||
O Nanak, the Naam abides deep within the minds of the Gurmukhs, who are cleansed of all their filth. ||8||19||20||

I don't even understand the nature of your objection. What person driving a car would put a blindfold on because "Ang Sang Waheguru will take care of me?" Did I quote something in Gurbani which says something ridiculous like this? Please show me. Or are you making ridiculous analogies which defy common sense? You don't wipe when you use the bathroom? Oh course you do. To practice uncleaness promotes disease. Not to have discrimination around the company you keep, the influences you put into your mind, the vibration you put into your body would be foolishness and take you on a wrong road. Are you implying jhooth does not exist? Are you implying Naam does not purify the mind/body spiritually and lead to liberation? What exactly is your point?

Veerji I said very little by way of commentary. Most of what I did was quote Gurbani and Rehitnamay. Are you saying Gurbani is ridiculous? You are saying the post has a lot of mistranslations. Why don't you clarify with your own translations and prove this by doing a better job? Otherwise it's just a groundless accusation proving nothing and another form of nindya.

 

[Parma]

So harjas. I say all men and women are sikh/ If everyone is not a sikh. Then how does the religion grow? Who is then? I gues its just you isnt it. The sikh religion has no space to grow. If that is the case then the intire sikh religion begins and ends with you then, because no one else is a sikh in your eyes unless they follow your views. I follow the gurbarni. The intire view that we have too much arrogance is because why? Some people do not wish to follow your view. Realise that everyones life is different or yours our religion does not tie people down into it. So why do you try. Work along side the world not against it. Like a wall whenever I try to make sense all you come up with is a wall. I like you because you try hard to make people learn the texts, but then you try and judge them aswell. Its not your place to judge. If i'm wrong then i'm wrong and I will learn from my own mistakes. Not from a diffensive point of view. If you dont like my comments just tell me ****** off. I leave you alone hopefully its somthing to think about

 

[Sahota]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Harjas ji your sending mixed messages. One sikhi de anukool, duja sikhi de khilaaf, teeja who knows what>>>>>

long long message that ends up in no sense at all.

A lot of Gurbani though, which is not readable either, is everybody have the same problem or it is my computer. I am able to read all the others but not the ones posted by her!

Back to the Arrogance- Dear SS0606 ji, very sorry to hear what treatment your friend got from her Sikh friends. This is happening a lot. We must educate our fellow Sikhs not to behave like this with our friends who belong to other religions. Like you say a Sikh must respect all, and not just in talk but in deed as well. Our Gurus have taught us this thing several times in gurbani. What happened to that 'sagal kee rainkaa' temprament.

Kaur-1 ji, my wife does the same thing you are talking about, saying Waheguru everytime we pass by church or other temples, I use to laugh at her before but now I am learning too. I guess growing up .

Surinder Ji, you really made me think-??WHY ARROGANCE??

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Harjas ji your sending mixed messages. One sikhi de anukool, duja sikhi de khilaaf, teeja who knows what>>>>>
long long message that ends up in no sense at all. A lot of Gurbani though, which is not readable either, is everybody have the same problem or it is my computer. I am able to read all the others but not the ones posted by her!

1. First I apologize because I have a lot of problems posting Gurbani on this forum. If I make translation, it changes English to Gurmukhi making no sense. If I fix English and Roman, the Gurmukhi changes also, making unreadable. This goes on back and forth for a long time trying to make it work. Often I lose the clear Gurmukhi script, and have to use personal fonts which are hard to read. But no one is asking clarification of any particular shabad. I would be happy to clarify any shabad that appears unclear. It's not a discussion. It's an attack on Gurmat.

2. You say I am saying some things according to Sikhi, and some things against Sikhi. Yet every single point I have supported with Gurbani, with Rehitnamay. The points I am conforming my own opinion to are Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha point of view. While maybe not a popular view, it is still Gurmat and completely Panthic. As I read carefully these numerous objections. I see a very calculated attempt to force the acceptance of Hinduization of Gursikhi by making a Panthic Tat-Khalsa Gurmat position seem false, and a sanatan God-is-in-ALL-every-practice-is-Sikh view seem the only correct view. That is really the issue here.

3. If I explain the Khalsa rehits which explain how Khalsa is to keep distinct identity which was orally transmitted to the original Panj Piare and left to us in various Rehitnamay, you people say I am mistranslating, misquoting, distorting, or even a horrible person, a fake Sikh.

4. If I explain principles of dietary bibek, you say that I am against Gurbani, even when I explain from Gurbani, and clarify supportive interpretation from vaaran of Bhai Gurdas and rehitnamay. I even provide links to Gurmat sites for further clarification and independant study. But no one cares about clarification. In one simple sentence you are accusing of being against Sikhi. So I caution you, my opinion is nothing and I encourage all to correct my personal mistakes. But Gurmat Gursikhi is everything. If you disregard these points of view entirely, what you are doing is discrediting independant Sikh identity by spreading anti-Gurmat propaganda and sanatan dharam world-view. All while pretending to be Sikhi. You do not espouse the Gurmat position. And you have no supporting context for your translations of Gurbani.

5. There is nothing I have posted which is against Sikhi. What is against Sikhi is the sanatan assimilation position. What you all are promoting here. One says Guruji is just another teacher equal to all great relious teachers. One says Sikhi is interchangeable with Hindu worship. One says ALL is Waheguru and thus their practices should be accepted as equal to Sikhi. One says all men are Sikhs. Anything which asserts the independance of Sikh identity is labeled "against (khilaaf) Sikhi." Even if it is a Gurmat Gursikhi interpretation. Because the attempt is to badger, shame, and force the assimilation viewpoint.

What is against Sikhi is this Hindu blending; notion of equality with every religion having no pride or dignity or loyalty to one's own faith; and rejection of Gurmat interpretations of Gurbani.

6. Sikh identity has always been under attack. Since 1978 the Panth has been under extreme stress and diabolical pressure. And the Panth acknowledges that the greatest attack is the assimilation of Gursikhi into the Hindu fold by fundamentalist Hindutva missionaries. It is more insidious than any genocidal killing spree. It is negligent to ignore this present-day reality.

Not every Muslim will visit a Buddhist temple. Not every Jewish person will visit a Christian church. But all can be friends if they have RESPECT for the DIFFERENCES in religious belief. And not keep trying to force the acceptance of any other way and blending of beliefs/practices as one.

7. What we are witnessing on this message board are people with the name of Sikh who are REJECTING any right to difference, DISRESPECTING any non-sanatan viewpoint, and personally attacking, discrediting, and devaluing someone who promotes a strictly Gurmat view.

The Sikh friends of this Hindu girl did not hurt her in any way by "choosing for themselves the right" NOT to attend Hindu worship services. It is her problem if she, and the entire sanatan community, take offense.

NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO DISRESPECT HIS OWN UNIQUE IDENTITY IF HE WANTS TO KEEP HIS RELIGION DISTINCT!

IT SHOWS RESPECT OF THE RELIGION NOT TO WATER IT DOWN WITH FALSE AND REJECTED TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF ANOTHER FAITH.

Parma:
I say all men and women are sikh/ If everyone is not a sikh. Then how does the religion grow? Who is then? I gues its just you isnt it. The sikh religion has no space to grow. If that is the case then the intire sikh religion begins and ends with you then, because no one else is a sikh in your eyes unless they follow your views. I follow the gurbarni.


Parma:
In hasnt defined it as WRONG, to be of another faith. RELIGION IS MAN MADE NOT MADE BY GOD.

Parma:
god is the only perfect thing. If that is the case then all other things are in-perfect. whether that be a guru jesus buddha whoever. If you accept the fact that god is perfect then you cannot deny they were in-perfect. If that is the case which in my view god is the most perfect thing ever. Then even the guru's prophets, massiahs as well as all other human beings can make mistakes.

Parma:
There are many sikhs out there that believe you have to have amrit or wear 5 k's to be a true sikh. Is that not the reason why guru nanak started off the sikh religion to obolish such practices and weird superstitions that god is in a stone or how you may proclaim in your appearance... As that is the sikh religion I believe in if that is not the sikh religion then i can no longer call myself a sikh. And niether would i want to be one as there is no difference between the muslim 5 times praying or hindu idol worshipping then that to maintain a certain appearance would make you closer to god.


Parma:
THE SIKH RELIGION DOES NOT DEFINE ANY OTHER THOUGHT AS WRONG, BUT PRACTICES THE SAME SYSTEMS... WHICH TO ME DEFINES EVERYONE AS A SIKH!!!

Parma:
The sikh religion was made so men could exsist in normal life and still believe in god. Not to change and follow codes. Like I said before the only perfect thing is god makes all else in-perfect.

Parma, you don't follow Gurbani, you haven't cited one time any single pauri in Gurbani which supports your views. You are mischevious in defining teachings of Sikh religion. This is anti-Gurmat to call Sikh what is clearly not Sikh and thus confuse and further divide the Panth. The entire Sikh religion begins and ends with Guruji and in His sargun manifestation as Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, Panj Piares, Akal Takht and Khalsa Panth. It has nothing to do with anyone's personal opinions or sanatan Hindutva assimilation.

You do not even know what Gurbani teaches. All you do is espouse nonsense.

 

[simpy]

-----
What happened to that 'sagal kee rainkaa' temprament.
------
------
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Respected Sahota Ji,

sagal ki reinkaa temptamaent is a Satyugi Gun, Not a common thing in Kalyug, in Kalyug this can happen only with GuruKirpa


tan man kaat kaat sabh arpee
vich agnee aap jalaaee.

Naam Simran, Kirtan, Shabad Vichaar iss rastay de moti ne chug laoo, vakt bahutaa nahee.......

forgive me please

 

[avt_1966]

I don't think that we sikhs have too much arrogance. sikhs are not harsh to others Rather they are comparatively polite. Sometimes it depends upon the atmosphere in which one lives or works. Social status also makes a person polite or arrogant. Actually when one psersn is at his/her top position or comparatively on higher position, and how he/she behaves with others and to what extent he make/maintains relations with others, this is the real test for him/her. If he behaves sensibly with others at this status he/she can never be avoided with any one.