Do We Sikhs Have Too Much Arrogance?

[kds1980]

harjas kaur ji

i am a middle class sikh living in india.and one thing i want to say is that rss itself has very limited support among hindu's.from past 60 years their political wing
bjp has tried to gain majority but each and every time they failed.they only formed
government in 1998 with support from other seculer parties.so calling each and every hindu as rss missionary is a joke.infact the main fight of rss is with muslims and christians.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

so calling each and every hindu as rss missionary is a joke.infact the main fight of rss is with muslims and christians.

It's a little more complex than that veerji. RSS was also involved in the anti-Sikh riots although prefers to blame this all on Congress party. But I never said every Hindu is an RSS missionary. I said there are valid reasons why Sikhs should not be mixing too much with other religions. It isn't Gurmat to assimilate with other religious teachings and practices.

The Indian government, the Punjab government definitely have an agenda of assimilating Sikhi. Maybe you're not as aware as you should be. RSS-BJP-VHP has limited support? Why are they in control of Punjab via CM Badal? Why are they in control of Uttar Pradesh? Why are they in control in Gujarat?

Panthic Weekly: Reaction to Badal/BJP/RSS Victory in Punjab
Khaleej Times Online - The many faces of BJP=
http://www.indiaprwire.com/businessnews/20070420/22057.htm

"The Sikh community is fully cognizant that the same extremist Brahmanic forces that have attempted to annihilate the Sikh nation via actions such as 'Operation Bluestar' and the November 1984 Anti-Sikh Pogroms, are also the driving forces behind terrorist organizations such as the RSS. Where in the past few decades, the primary objective of these Brahmanic forces was the physical annihilation of the Sikh Nation; the RSS has now coordinated with them to destroy the fundamental institutions and core-principals of the Sikh religion through other means.

In January 2001, the RSS organization made plans of holding Akhand Paths of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in various Hindu temples throughout India but directives from Akal Takht Sahib banning their participation helped preserve the reverence of Guru Granth Sahib at that time.

Panthic Weekly: RSS Attempt to Infiltrate Panth using counterfeit Sikh organizations

 

[simpy]

Respected Harjas Ji,

this is everywhere and all the time-

there are few who are against Sikhs.

please try to understand- ALL HINDUS ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE- they are just like us.
in india even in punjab- we all live together on the same street, our kids play together, even at occassions we spend days and days together.
in general masses there is no hatred.

these are political issues, these dirty polititians are polluting minds of the sensitive people.

One must think rationaly.
i myself pactically lived through-84 and all that in punjab and Delhi- we cannot shut our eyes from the goodness of the masses- YOU THINK THAT GOVERNMENT COULD HAVE DONE THAT WITHOUT EMERGENCY CALLS AND CURFEWS- because no body would have let this happen at that scale-GOODNESS IS STILL THERE AND ALWAYS BE.

i am very busy today- i will wrie in more detail later.

PLEASE REMEMBER DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU TEGH BAHADAR JI GAVE HIS PRECIOUS LIFE TO SAVE THIS SAME HINDU RELIGION- SO HOW IT CAN BE BAD

forgive me please

 

[lovely_silky]

Sadh Sangat ji,

every community has good and bad people, what if everybody equate each and every Sikh to a few bad Sikhs :hmm: ; should we all be answerable?

i think not

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

please try to understand- ALL HINDUS ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE

I never said Hindus are bad people, but I can assure you the average Hindu thinks our sangat is bad people. Hindu's may visit some Gurudwara's, but I doubt they would stay in a langar hall where they have darshan of 1984 shaheeds. I really thought I was promoting an understanding view of the girl's invitation and not want the kids to disrespect Hindu faith.

The float has prompted the government of India to launch a diplomatic protest. (They ignore decades of torture and do this over one single picture in a float?)

Mr. Parmar, a militant Khalistani advocate, has been identified in a B.C. court case as the alleged mastermind behind a mid-air bomb explosion aboard an Air-India flight in 1985, en route from Canada to London. Born in Punjab and later made a Canadian citizen, he was killed by police in India in 1992. Dave Hayer, a Liberal MLA, said people should not be allowed to organize events where alleged terrorists are glorified.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070419.NATS19-2/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia/

What about the terror of the Indian Government? Shaheed Singh Parmar was identified as being the "mastermind of a plot" in which the principal participants WERE COMPLETELY EXONERATED. This is character assassination OF AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY!

The Indian consulate in Vancouver is aware of the views of those who attend the Surrey temple and does not associate with their events, Mr. Singh said. The diplomats however support events sponsored by the Vancouver temple.

"We know the difference," he said, adding that he thought that Canadian politicians should also be aware of the differences. The politicians should know that the charitable status of the banned groups has been revoked and about the Khalistan issue, he also said.
"All politicians must be aware of what is going on. They know about the Air-India disaster and what happened," Mr. Singh said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070418.BCPARADE18/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia/

The Khalistan issue? Why is he still blaming Sikhs for Air India when they have been EXONERATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? They probably have the Gurudwara wiretapped.

Shadow over Sikh celebration http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=73&cat=23&id=&more=​

Talwinder Singh Parmar, identified in the Air India bombing trial as the mastermind
behind the terrorist act, is pictured (third from right) on a float in Surrey’s Vaisakhi parade.

See the scary pro-Khalistanis?

“This event has no place for terrorists, or criminal elements in there,” Hayer said Wednesday. “All political parties, and people from every government level should say ‘no person, regardless of what their religion is, regardless of what their colour is, should be carrying around in public, terrorists, or people who promote terrorism, or who kill Canadian citizens, (promoting them) as heroes.’ ”

He said if politicians don’t take a stand, “it will happen over and over again.” Federal Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh was equally critical of the Parmar float. “We have our soldiers dying in Afghanistan to fight against terrorism, and we can’t allow the promotion of that terrorism on Canadian soil with respect to another country,” Dosanjh said Thursday. “That kind of display of violence, essentially based on hate and anger, deserves the strongest denunciation from political leaders...” ​

http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=73&cat=23&id=966855&more=

Why are people always accusing us of hate and anger? What's with hating pictures of people who were tortured to death? They are so slippery with their words they keep calling us terrorists. Yet everyone in those pictures was someone that government of India killed. Someone who was fighting back because of all their killing and humiliation of Sikhs. They just want to create bad feeling and backlash of blame. They want us to be persecuted.

Can you understand the reluctance to visit a Hindu mandir? What's the point to pressure anyone. It's not going to make these political realities go away. Hindus are not respecting us. Not even. And don't say it's just the politicians. It's everything. Do you know what I hear from Hindu's at work? I hear how India was justified to use all forms of force and torture to kill the "terrorists." Now stop talking to me about who thinks who is bad people. Thats just more propaganda.

 

[simpy]

Respected Harjas ji,

my effort is plainly to tell others -please don't feed hatred and krodh to yourself. It is not good.


this is plainly your own choice, we can only tell our fellow sikhs to follow Guru Ji's teaching- CANNOT FOLLOW IT FOR THEM.

plainly your choice. but every time this kind of hatred talk goes beyond limits, somebody has to speak up, unfortunately there are few of us who do so....

I never said Hindus are bad people, but I can assure you the average Hindu thinks our sangat is bad people. Hindu's may visit some Gurudwara's, but I doubt they would stay in a langar hall where they have darshan of 1984 shaheeds. I really thought I was promoting an understanding view of the girl's invitation and not want the kids to disrespect Hindu faith.

may i ask you- have you ever lived among Hindus in India?
i guess never, even you are using-'may' in your statements. You are judging all Hindus from the statements made by a few people at work.
Please be real Harjas Ji. This is not truth.


And THE REALITY IS-A true Sikh promotes only LOVE, and always respond to the circumstances and debates, never reacts.

KRODH IS NOT GOOD- doesn't matter for whom it is.

let us concentrate on making ourself the way Guru Ji wants us to be-

PrIdw jo qY mwrin mukIAW iqn@w n mwry GuMim ]
AwpnVY Gir jweIAY pYr iqn@w dy cuMim ]



sUry eyih n AwKIAih AhMkwir mrih duKu pwvih ]
AMDy Awpu n pCwxnI dUjY pic jwvih ]
Aiq kroD isau lUJdy AgY ipCY duKu pwvih ]
hir jIau AhMkwru n BwveI vyd kUik suxwvih ]
AhMkwir muey sy ivgqI gey mir jnmih iPir Awvih ]


EAMkwr Akwr kr mKI iek aupweI mwXw]
iqMn loA cOdW Bvn jl Ql mhIAl Cl kr CwXw]
bRhmw ibSn mhyS qRY ds Avqwr bzwr ncwXw]
jqI sqI sMqoKIAW isD nQ bhu pMQ BvwXw]
kwm kroD ivroD ivc loB moh kr DRoh lVwXw]
haumY AMdr sBko syrhUM Gt n iknY AKwXw]
kwrx krqy Awp lukwXw ]

And i am surprised how you think that going to another place of worship just for a visit(on friends invitation) can effect our own faith in our religion- ARE WE THAT SHALLOW- i don't think a true Sikh can be that weak from inside that something can effect him or her this way.

forgive me please

 

[kds1980]

s a little more complex than that veerji. RSS was also involved in the anti-Sikh riots although prefers to blame this all on Congress party. But I never said every Hindu is an RSS missionary. I said there are valid reasons why Sikhs should not be mixing too much with other religions. It isn't Gurmat to assimilate with other religious teachings and practices.

guru gobind singh ji had 52 poets in his court and many of them were hindu's.was guru gobind ji afraid that the these assimilate sikhs into hinduism.i am not saying
that sikhs should start visiting other religious places but for the sake of their friends
of other religions their is nothing wrong going to these places.

e Indian government, the Punjab government definitely have an agenda of assimilating Sikhi. Maybe you're not as aware as you should be. RSS-BJP-VHP has limited support? Why are they in control of Punjab via CM Badal? Why are they in control of Uttar Pradesh? Why are they in control in Gujarat?

religion is not the sole issue in life their are many other things in life on which people decide to whom to vote.the fact is badal has not captured power forcefully.people of punjab has voted him into power.if people of punjab feels that badal is good for them then there is nothing you and i could do.

and let me tell me tell you one thing rss is not in control of uttar pradesh though they are trying very hard to capture it.and gujarat is no.1 state in india in terms of development.people of india are now voting for development.our gurudwara's authorites have betrayed sikhs again.there are very few sikh colleges in india
and the condition of sikh schools are really pathetic

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

our gurudwara's authorites have betrayed sikhs again.there are very few sikh colleges in india and the condition of sikh schools are really pathetic

RSS is for development. And our Gurudwara's authorities and Sikh colleges are really pathetic...?

and you don't see this as the result of 20 plus years of genocidal oppression and slaughter of Sikh leaders in 1984? And followed by intensive campaign to infiltrate and dilute Sikh teachings, promote dissident Sikh scholars? Or promoting multitude of fake babas, sants, and dehdari gurus subsidizing them with state monies? Not to mention persecution and alienation of any sign of Sikh independance. What a policy. Murder Sikhs who have integrity by the hundreds of thousands. Buy off stooges afraid for their lives who will betray the Panth, even killing and assaulting their own for money (black cats). And then wonder why you have a new generation of corrupt officials. India didn't tolerate leaders with integrity, they destroyed them utterly.

Thanks India for such support of Sikh parchaar and continued persecutions and propaganda. We are all endlessly grateful for your patronage.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

isMG isMG pr SsqR n kry ] jwn gurU Kwlsy qy fry]43]​

si(n)gh si(n)gh par shasathr n karae || jaan guroo khaalasae thae ddarae||43||​

A Sikh should never attack another Sikh. He should recognise others as the Guru Khalsa and should remain fearful of them.​

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh​

--------------------------​

gurU kw isK jy adwsI krY qW Apxy gurW dy AsQwn dyKy​

guroo kaa sikh jae ouadhaasee karai thaa(n) apanae guraa(n) dhae asathhaan dhaekhae​

The Sikh of the Guru should only visit Sikh Gurdwaras when on pilgrimage.​

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​

----------------------------------​

gurU kw isK gor, mVHI, kbr, dyhrw, msIq, mu~lw, kwzI nUM nw mMny, ibnW gurU Apxy​

guroo kaa sikh gora marrhee kabara dhaeharaa maseetha mulaa kaazee noo(n) naa ma(n)nae binaa(n) guroo apanae​

The Sikh of the Guru should never pray to graves, cemetries, cremation grounds. ​

Nor should they pray in Hindu Temples or Mosques. ​

They should not accept sermons from non-Sikh priests but should only have faith in their Guru.​

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​

----------------------------------​

Sbd igAwn ibn krih ju bwq ] qW kY kCu nw Awvih hwQ ]]​

shabadh giaan bin karehi j baath || thaa(n) kai kashh naa aavehi haathh ||||​

Those who speak words which do not reflect on the Guru's teachings will never attain even an iota of spiritual bliss.;​

Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​

-----------------------------​

siqgur kI bwxI ibnw rsnw rtih jo hor so mwirAw krqwr kw pVw nrik mD Gor]26]​

sathigur kee baanee binaa rasanaa rattehi jo hor so maariaa karathaar kaa parraa narak madhh ghora||26||​

Those who disregard the Guru's Bani and chant or speak anything else. will be punished by God Himself.​

Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​

-----------------------------​

^wlsw soie duSt kau gwlY ]​

khhaalasaa soe dhushatt ko gaalai ||​

He is the Khalsa who destroys the tyrant enemy.​

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​

---------------------------------​

^wlsw soie ju cBY qurMg ]​

khhaalasaa soe j chabhai thura(n)g ||​

He is the Khalsa who is forever ready for battle.​

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​

---------------------------------​

Akwl purK ko Cwf kir BjY dyv koeI Aaur jnm jnm BRmqw iPrih lhih n suK kI Taur ]16]​

akaal purakh ko shhaadd kar bhajai dhaev koee aour janam janam bhramathaa firehi lehehi n sukh kee t(h)our ||16||​

Those who forget God and worship deities instead. The will be born again and again in delusion and will never attain peace.​

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee​

---------------------------------​

GURBANI​

qorau n pwqI pUjau n dyvw ] rwm Bgiq ibnu inhPl syvw ]2]​

thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa || raam bhagath bin nihafal saevaa ||2||​

I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols. Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless. ||2||​

Page 1158 Bhagat Kabeer Jee Raag Bhairo​

----------------------------------------​

^wlsw soie krY inq jMg ]​

khhaalasaa soe karai nith ja(n)g ||​

He is the Khalsa who fights the enemies each and every day.​

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee

--------------------------------​

​

Taken from Sikhitothemax, 101 REHATS OF A DISCIPLINED SIKH
SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji ,

one must learn Gurmukhi and Farsi to actually understand what is written. Translators are giving only their own prospective. And taking the Panth to a totally distructive way. This is solely me neech understand. Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.

just like for a long long time -these Pandit Teekakaars used to do the translations of Gurbani and taught everybody the wrong meanings of Gurbani. The same is going on with all the rest of the writtings now- leave alone what is even true out of the rest of the stuff that is not qouted in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and other SGPC approved writtings, as people make up poetry that sound similar and tell others it is written by so and so. And so many people out there MISTRANSLATING GURBANI in every language these days- no dearth of them. look where that will take the Sikh Religion. i have no idea what OUR BIG SPOKESMEN SAY ABOUT THAT.

WE SAY THIS VERY PROUDLY THAT IN SIKHI BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE TREATED EQUALLY- WHY WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN AND ARDAAS IN SIRI HARMANDIR SAHIB JI????????????????

i would like to know who wrote this RULE.....................



khalse di jang apne andar de vikaaran naal hai na ke lokaan naal. The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings.
and fight that has to be done as fight is with injustice not with innocent people of another faith. if we do the same then what is the difference between them and us.

Guru sahib ne aapney jaannasheen vaar dittay dujiaan nu julam to ajjaad karoun lai, nasamjhi di daldal cho kaddan lai, te asi usee hi daldal ch aapney aap nu dabbo rahe haan.

forgive me please

 

[kds1980]

harjas kaur ji i am not saying that rss is for development.but nobody could deny the fact that gujarat is the no.1 state of india terms of economic development.

i just have 1 simple question from you if badal is such an oppressive person then why the hell people of punjab voted him into power.this time there was 71% turnout in punjab.btw i don't live in punjab.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

just like for a long long time -these Pandit Teekakaars used to do the translations of Gurbani and taught everybody the wrong meanings of Gurbani.

You can read the Gurmukhi. Everything is very clear. What part of it would you like to translate in a different way? It needs no katha. What you are maligning as "wrong translations" and "taking down the Panth in a destructive way" is actually Tat-Khalsa Singh Sabha Gurmat reform. These positions have a valid history within the Panth.

Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.

These are the some of the Rehitnamay which were brought together to create the Rehit Maryada. Many of these writers of rehitnamay spoke directly to the Guru and understood more than we the context of His Gurbani and codes of Khalsa conduct. You can look these up yourself. You can read Gurbani directly, and check disputed definitions with vaars of Bhai Gurdas, and the Purataan Rehatnamay, and the Rehit Maryada for clarification. Not everyone in the Panth has the same positions. But it is irrefutably clear what the Gurmat Rehtnamas are saying. No need to distort and invalidate them as "mere" translations because you don't agree with Gurmat positions. Can you read Gurumukhi? Then what the Rehitnama says is also clearly NOT a distortion or deliberate mistranslation. Whether you accept it, agree with it or not is another matter. There are always matters of dispute within the Panth. There is room for disagreement. But, please don't invalidate legitimate Gurmat positions on issues like visiting Hindu mandirs which some Gursikhs will consider to be wrong based on literal reading of Purataan Rehitnamas. It may not be wrong for you. Obviously it is wrong for others, based on cited sources.

The badgering, shaming, pressuring of Sikhs to take a position contrary to Gurmat is also a negative indicator. There is no hatred implied by realistic appraisal of the true political affairs of Sikhs with respect to powerful and persuasive forces of assimilation.

And so many people out there MISTRANSLATING GURBANI in every language these days

These are not my own translations. These are not my own personal positions. I submit myself to the positions of the elder Gursikhs, and to the sources of authority they have directed me to, namely Gurbani, the vaars of Bhai Gurdas (brahmgyani) and the Rehitnamay and Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). If you have a problem with these positions which all compliment each other, then you have a problem with Gurmat Gursikhi.

WE SAY THIS VERY PROUDLY THAT IN SIKHI BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE TREATED EQUALLY- WHY WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN AND ARDAAS IN SIRI HARMANDIR SAHIB JI????????????????

i would like to know who wrote this RULE.....................

The matter was taken up before the Panj Piare of the Akal Takht. A hukam was given that closes this matter. Consider it may have less to do with what is "right" than what is the current state of the Panth and need to create no more divisions and controversy at this time. Moreover this position is not any legitimate refutation of Purataan Rehitnamay about whether Gursikhs should visit Hindu mandirs. I have provided you with citations for why Gurmat does not promote that practice. If you begin to undermine the Purataan Rehitnamay and even Akal Takht and the Panj Piare because you don't like a certain position, then I would caution you to consider who is being destructive to the Khalsa Panth.

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings.

The Khalsa has always had enemies in the physical world, and injunctions by Guruji to fight jangs. Even the Zafernama of Guru Gobind Singh Ji states clearly the position of chardhi kala in physical combat despite losses of his own sons, and the commitment of the Panth to oppose oppression in a physical way. Nowhere could anyone misinterpret these positions of Guruji as being solely of a spiritual dimension or pacifistic toleration of injustices. It is both, secular AND spiritual warfare. This does not give license to become oppressors, or to become unjust, or to malign or harm innocent people. But there remain political realities which require opposition. What is the very meaning of Rehit Maryada? It means "Continue to remember death 'marna' in the way you live your life." Now, if these codes of conduct had only to do with spiritual ideologies, why the soldierly admonition?

Hinduism as a religion is not to be maligned because the Akal Purakh is present in it and lot of truths are in its teachings. Hindu's as sincere practitioners of these varied teachings and faiths of Bharat are not to be targeted or mistreated. But HINDUTVA, which is a militant political and racist philosophy is AT WAR WITH SIKH TEACHINGS is to be resisted and opposed. The present political realities require it. Or be assured, assilimation and distortion of Sikhism into sanatan Hindu Dharam will result. This was precisely the goal of the original Singh Sabha movement, to protect the interests of Purataan Sikh Dharam. It aimed to exclude Hinduized corruptions and protect Sikhism from being absorbed into Hinduism. That's why we have these strict definitions in the first place. How can you say these rehitnamaey are "distortions?" Their intent is very clear and consistent...to prevent assimilation.

Badal won majority in Punjab, because Punjab has for decades annihilated strong, independant Sikh opposition. Naturally if you kill off your opponents by the hundreds of thousands, opposition will lose credibility and political status. The condition of Punjab right now is one of domination by the Hindutva sponsors as well as corruption of the Congress Government. Why else would Punjab be in support of a man and party who actively promote and finance guru RAM SINGH and the Naamdhari lineage of gurus as LEGITIMATE Sikhism? RSS backs this because Naamdharies are part of the Hindu Parivaar. And that's the intended political message.

Now more than ever, the Gurmat positions of clearly distinguishing Sikhi and not mixing religious traditions and practices, is self-evident survival necessity.

~Please correct my mistakes.

 

[dalsingh]

Yes, in my, for whatever it's worth, opinion, we have way too much pride based on what our ancestors did.

Sikhs today aren't a fragemnt on them. Especially the ones who pray all the time but couldn't handle a street fight let alone a guerilla movement like the original Khalsa did.

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji ,

still not sure about the reason WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN IN SIRI DARBAAR SAHIB JI. Where this rule is written and by whom???

and khalse di jang-

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)...

About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths .....

Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....

humbly asking for your forgiveness

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji ,

still not sure about the reason WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO KIRTAN IN SIRI DARBAAR SAHIB JI. Where this rule is written and by whom???

Panthic Weekly: Panj Piare rejects plea to have Amritdhari women Perform Sewa at Harmandir Sahib

and khalse di jang-

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us....

Then why are shastars physical weapons and not spiritual ideals? How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...." How dare you distort the Khalsa Fauj as anything other than protectors of the innocent! As if by saying this anyone would believe that evil and oppression do not exist, which is why the Khalsa exist on this earth.

About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths .

Some people even think that by becoming a Sikh it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, it is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo.

humbly asking for your forgiveness

You are doing nindya of me to defend your view that it's okay for Sikhs to visit Hindu mandirs. I submit my views to accepted Gurmat positions, not to something indiscriminately read online, to personal translations, or to contradicting Guru Ji's teachings. But you would go this far in personal slander to invalidate a Gurmat Rehitnama which I quoted, which contradicts your opinion. You dare say Guru Ji's teachings are a "joke" to me because I do not support visiting Hindu mandirs? How do you know what is in my heart or intent? Do you think I write opinions without consulting Gursikhs? You want so much to invalidate this position, but you falsely try to make it my opinion alone.

You may or may not accept this position, but there is no error in translation. And the source is not my independant thought, but Bhai Chaupaa Singh Ji. Rehitnamay are the basis for the Rehit Maryada which every amritdhari follows. It isn't some spurious, erroneous or mistranslated opinion.

it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then streach it to unlimited lengths

You should take care who you are referring to as a Pandit teekakaar.

gurU kw isK gor, mVHI, kbr, dyhrw, msIq, mu~lw, kwzI nUM nw mMny, ibnW gurU Apxy​

guroo kaa sikh gora marrhee kabara dhaeharaa maseetha mulaa kaazee noo(n) naa ma(n)nae binaa(n) guroo apanae​

The Sikh of the Guru should never pray to graves, cemetries, cremation grounds. ​

Nor should they pray in Hindu Temples or Mosques. ​

They should not accept sermons from non-Sikh priests but should only have faith in their Guru.​

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​

​

Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji got the chance of having Darshan of four Gurus (Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji, Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji, Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib Ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji)...​

According to Kesar Singh Chhibbar, Guru Ji tasted the nectar, and then first of all, he distributed it to Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji. ​

When the need of written 'Rahat-naama' (book of code of conduct) was felt, it was Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji, who was ordered by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to write the 'Rahat-naama'. Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji wrote this, which is famous as 'Rahat-naama Bhai Chaupa Singh'. ​

http://www.amritworld.com/guruhistory/chaupasingh.html​

 

[simpy]

Respected Harjas Ji ,
i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs. and as a nimani Sikh i am only putting my concerns. sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....

Wow!

How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...."

WHY DO WE ASK FOR SARBAT DA BHALAAAAAAA IN ARDAAS ALL THE TIME-i wonder
Respected Harjas Ji !!!!ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT SIKHS ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT WITH THE INNOCENTS!!!!

please forgive me


Respected Saadh Sangat Ji ,

Our Sikh Veers are getting the opportunity to get the Aanad to do Kirtan in Siri Darbaar Sahib Amritsar(SACHKHAND ON THIS EARTH FOR SIKH JAGAT), and no Sikh Bhen has gotten that Golden Chance. Why Women are considered not worthy of this. This is all i am asking-who originated this idea- is it written somewhere, if it is who did it. BECAUSE I CONSIDER IT SAME AS- people who know Sikh History very well, there was a time period women were not allowed in the premises of Siri Darbaar Sahib Ji, that thing is taken care, this will be too one day. i am just looking for -how this whole shamole started. Please correct me Saadh Sangat Ji if asking for the truth is wrong in this case....

'Khalsa Soi jo kareh nit Jang' ,
Here Bhai Nand Lal Ji is talking about the inner war- with panch doot.

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)... so both fights- inner with the panj vikaar. Outer- with the tyrants of the world (who are smothering the human rights like some gajar mooli). Khalsa is pure, nirmal; it protects everybody not just me mine i or we us ours, but ALL...

About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have endless time for all the other useless things to fight about ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language. And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then stretch it to unlimited lengths ..... and this is perfectly true we have already seen many times on our SPN, any doubts...

Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...

Respected Bhai Nand Lal Ji says 'Ma bapa-e-Shah sar afganah em, Az do alam dast ra afshandah em' ......


humbly asking for your forgiveness

 

[sachchasoda]

Khalsa in the words of Bhai NandLal Jee:

English Translations:
Khalsa is one who does not speak ill of others;
Khalsa is one who fights in the front ranks;
Khalsa is one who conquers the five evils;
Khalsa is one who destroys doubt;
Khalsa is one who gives up ego;
Khalsa is one who keeps away from woman, except his wife;
Khalsa is one who looks upon all his own;
Khalsa is one who attunes himsef with God.

bhul chuk maaf

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Respected Harjas Ji ,
i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs. and as a nimani Sikh i am only putting my concerns. sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....

Did you also just write all this extreme reaction following my citation and tearing it apart as false translation, deliberate distortion, hatred of Gurbani, Horrible for such a person to call themselves a Sikh? So one would have to imply this venom was intended for whoever posted the Rehitnama which you disagreed with. Did you not also spew similar attack in private PM where you accuse me of being filled with krodh, maya and panj dhoots? So how can I not feel it is directed to me personally? Why do you hide behind fake talk like this and smiley faces when you do character assassination?

Did you not say,

one must learn Gurmukhi and Farsi to actually understand what is written. Translators are giving only their own prospective. And taking the Panth to a totally distructive way. This is solely me neech understand. Somepeople use just one line from somewhere and give it their own meaning.

So here you are implying something is wrong in translation, something is false because translators only give their perspective. And this falsehood in the Rehitnama is taking the Panth in a totally destructive way.

Yet, you do not clarify what is wrong in the translation. I had fluent Gurmukhi and Punjabi speakers read it through carefully and there is no error in translation. I do not assume things on my own. Yet, you are stating that what is written is false, mistranslated and incorrect. But you do not say in what way.

Did you not also say,

About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue,

This is not a general statement, but follows the post where I quoted Rehitnamay. So by implication one must conclude that you accuse me of mistranslating, not having sufficient knowledge, and something is so dire that our leaders are sleeping and must wake up over this destructiveness to the Panth. Yet you fail to clarify how the rehitnamay are false.

Did you not also say,

And some people still believe that they can learn Gurbani through translations...it is very funny when some people take one line from somewhere and try to make a meaning of its own and then stretch it to unlimited lengths ..... and this is perfectly true we have already seen many times on our SPN, any doubts...

Are you implying I am learning Gurbani only through translations when I have said I am learning from Gursikhs who are native and fluent speakers of Gurmukhi and Punjabi? Since what you have attacked is my ability to translate this Rehitnama, about visiting Hindu Mandirs, I am still waiting for your clarification and correction. But instead, it is character assassination of my capability, the destructiveness in my intent, and the falsehood of the translated Rehitnama, which you directly say is stretched to unlimited lengths, implying unlimited distortion.

But still you do not state how this Rehitnama is distorted.

Did you not also say,

Some people even think that by True Sikhi it means nothing to do with Guru Ji's Teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them. What is Sikhi without understanding and Living the Teachings of our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan Jeeo. A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...

Since all this venomous writing follows my post where I quoted Rehitnama which contradicts your position on Sikhs visiting Hindu mandirs, and all you are writing about is gross destructive distortion, falsehood, and now "some people"

Whose Sikhi means nothing to do with Guru Ji's teachings.

Explain? The Rehitnama is clear. Gursikhs are not to visit temples outside of Gurudwara. Why would this Rehitnama, cited to evaluate for better understanding have anything to do with assassinating the character of anyone as not following Guruji's teachings, Gurbani is like a joke for them.

How would you know what Gurbani means for another person? Who are you talking about on this thread, following my post citing Rehitnamay which you already accused of gross mistranslation and destructive falsehood?

You already told me the same thing in private PM, so I know you are referring to me personally when you publically write,

A person who has Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha....i still stand by what i said before...

So you are saying now I am a horrible person who thinks Gurbani is a joke, who is destructive to the Panth, who is lost inassaa mansa trishnaa and unbelievable that I should call myself a Sikh....

all because I quoted a Rehitnama after consulting with Gursikhs about what is proper for a Gursikh regarding visiting Hindu mandirs.

Did you not say,

i don't know how you are connecting what i wrote in my post to you about every thing. it is a thread about Sikhs.

But no, it is a thread in which you attacked the translation of a Rehitnama as being false, stretched to unlimited degree (implying deliberate distortion), that Gurbani is a joke to this person, that this person calling themself a Sikh is HORRIBLE. And I know and you know you meant me because in private PM you accused that I was same bad qualities. You are dishonest. But you can play this game on your forum. Who can stop you? You have attacked me worse than Naamdharis and cultists. And I did not attack you. I tried to explain a Gurmat position, which I conform to but wasn't even my own opinion. I asked others why is it Gurmat NOT to visit Hindu mandirs? And I shared with the forum the answer I received.

Did you not say,

and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....

Yet, all over you are saying the translation of the Rehitnama is false, the translators are deliberately distorting Gurbani and mistranslating, yet I know for a fact the translation is correct. And you do not even explain where it is false, or what is the proper meaning. Thus, since the Rehitnama is not incorrect, not distorted, you are calling something as false.

Did you not say,

About Gurbani Translations- a lot of mistranslation of Gurbani and other Gurmat literature is going on and our leaders are sleeping over this issue, they have all other useless things to fight about ... in the past it were Pandit Teekakaars, now a days it is being done in every well known language.

It's very clear that you are rejecting the Rehitnama as it stands, and directly accusing mistranslation. So I say very clearly, if the translation is NOT false, be careful who you are calling a pandit translator, because you will be speaking badly of the author of the Rehitnama itself if it is not false. So it is a very big assumption that the Rehitnama is false without any proof otherwise to make these big accusations of falsehood, distortion, Gurbani is a joke, not following teachings of Guru, someone like this calling themselves a Sikh is HORRIBLE, is UNBELIEVEBLE...

But still you do not show what is wrong in what the Rehitnama says or any proof to support your abusive position against what is written.

Did you not say,

Wow!

Quote:
How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...."
WHY DO WE ASK FOR SARBAT DA BHALAAAAAAA IN ARDAAS ALL THE TIME-i wonder
Respected Harjas Ji !!!!ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT SIKHS ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT WITH THE INNOCENTS!!!!

But you are the one distorting because originally you said,

and khalse di jang-

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)...

Here you say the war is fought with one's inner nature ONLY, and NOT WITH OTHERS WHO ARE INNOCENT..... To which I clarified fight is both inner and outer, miri and piri, spiritual and temporal. Within oneslef and against enemies who abuse human rights. But you are twisting, that it is either fight one's inner nature OR FIGHT AGAINST INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS.

This is false. Khalsa is not to fight innocent human beings, and not only to purify inner self BUT ALSO TO FIGHT AGAINST OPPRESSIVE EVIL HUMAN BEINGS. So you are leaving out this part of the equation. And that implies that when Khalsa Panth is fighting external enemy in the physical world, that according to your formulation, Khalsa is WRONG for not only fight inner nature, and thus fighting others who are innocent, who are human beings like us. After I mentioned this, you changed position and clarified,

The fight khalsa has to do with his/her own inner filth and koor To make our innerself pure, and to keep it pure on a regular basis. this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us. we are supposed to fight for the Human Rights (for ALL not for me me me)... so both fights- inner with the panj vikaar. Outer- with the tyrants of the world (who are smothering the human rights like some gajar mooli). Khalsa is pure, nirmal; it protects everybody not just me mine i or we us ours, but ALL...

So I thank you for the clarification. Because the other way, only inner cleaning and to fight evil people is somehow to hurt the innocent is incorrect.

sorry if it hurts you respected sister Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.... and FYI i have not said a word against Rehatnamas ever, please check the facts before making the allegation. anyways it is your own problem....

Wow!

Quote:
How dare you say, "this fight is not with others who are innocent other human beings just like us...."

If this is the worst thing I had to say to you personally in this thread where you are calling me "a fake Sikh, destructive to the Panth, Panch Chor Ruling all over him/her and claims to be a Sikh-HORRIBLE. Lost in Assaa Mansaa Trishna and calls himself/herself a true sikh-UNBELIEVABLE. Haumai ch sarr reha hai te aapne aap nu Guru Da Sikh Aakh reha-panth di nak vadaa reha...." If this was the worst thing I had to say, you should look at your attack and ask what in the world that was about.

Khalsa in the words of Bhai NandLal Jee:

English Translations:
Khalsa is one who does not speak ill of others;
Khalsa is one who fights in the front ranks;
Khalsa is one who conquers the five evils;
Khalsa is one who destroys doubt;
Khalsa is one who gives up ego;
Khalsa is one who keeps away from woman, except his wife;
Khalsa is one who looks upon all his own;
Khalsa is one who attunes himsef with God.

bhul chuk maaf

Indeed. To make this much attack on a fellow Sikh in order to defend visiting of Hindu Mandirs. To call any disagreement with this position as filled with Krodh and hatred of innocent human beings, tells me exactly what kind of Hindutva is behind this forum. I gave very valid reasons why I did not believe it was correct. And even cited Rehitnamay. If I am wrong, why the hysterical character assassination? Your positions and comments are completely indefensible. I have not spoken ill of you one single time. I even acknowledged not all Sikhs agree with this position.

But it's your message forum. I can debate with anyone. But you are not debating, or discussing, or even having heated disagreement. What you are doing no one can even support. So I hearby take my leave from your forum before your ugly attacks against me get even worse. It is too bad really, because I was trying to be friendly to you and even explain why I took the position I did, which was not intended to harm anyone least of all innocent Hindus. And I even shared with you pictures and links of very holy and saintly Hindu spiritual teachers who I have great respect for. But enjoy your extreme negativity and call it anything you like, blame anyone you want. Make me out to be your worst enemy if you want. You're a forum moderator. Who could even stop you?

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

in response to the above post-

i never ever asked to be a moderator. ASK THEM WHO MADE ME ONE, Respected Ms Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji.

i been with SPN for over a year now- several people like me, several hate me, several are neutral.


if i have made a mistake- i humbly ask for everybody's forgiveness.
if truth hurts to some-i am sorry, it will hurt doesn't matter it is coming from which direction.

if Sangat decides to take this SPN LEADER Title away from me- no problem, i never ever asked for it.

i was humbly doing Seva, i am humbly doing Seva, i will humbly keep doing Seva.

and this Seva will always be for spreading goodness that's all.

ibsir geI sB qwiq prweI ]
jb qy swDsMgiq moih pweI ]1] rhwau ]
nw ko bYrI nhI ibgwnw sgl sMig hm kau bin AweI ]1]
jo pRB kIno so Bl mwinE eyh sumiq swDU qy pweI ]2]


forgive me please

 

[kaur-1]

Firstly I would like to explain that my dad is Sikh and mum is Hindu and so I associate with people of both religions but mostly Sikh. I can honestly say that I go to Gurdwara more than I go to Mandir and consider myself a Sikh and to be honest, my mum has never reinforced me to go Mandir, it was always entirely up to me.

I have a very close Hindu Punjabi friend. She is the only Hindu in our group of friends, but because she is Hindu PUNJABI she never felt out of place and we never treated her differently. Well so I thought....

Her family recently had a havan at the local Mandir and I went, once I got there I realised I was the only person (Sikh person) from our friend group there. I asked my friend where everyone else was and her answer to me was 'I don't think they like the idea of coming to the Mandir' I was quite offended by what she said, but when I rang my friends after the havan to my suprise she was right! They made comments like 'what are we gonna do at the temple with stupid brahmins praying around fire'

It made me quite angry, because whenever any of us have had a Kirtan at the Gurdwara she always makes the effort to come and sits throughout the paat. She has enough respect to come and show us that she cares. I felt as if my friends had given Sikhs a bad name. It was completely disrespectful.

To add to the disrespect - as we know Vaisakhi is round the corner, each year we ask my Hindu friend to come to the Nagar Kirtan with us and she always would. She would participate equally, do seva, keep her head covered things which are essential and things which even our young SIKHS don't do at the Kirtan and just come for a joke and laugh to meet friends. This weekend one of my friends said to her 'Why are you comming? You're not even Sikh' and now for that reason she said she isn't going to come.

Whatever she did was out of respect and I feel as if we have thrown it in her face and said we don't want it! My mum is Hindu, she goes to Gurdwara with my grandma every Sunday and my Grandma will probably go twice a year if that.

It suprises me because Sikhism teaches us to respect other religions! I wish I could say that maybe it is just the younger generation but then where do they learn this from?

Is this arrogance? To me it looks like school kids argueing about who's painting is better apart from in this case it's who's religion is better?


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Dear SS0606 ji,

Personally, I have been to a Mandir, once as a tourist and once with relatives in the evening during some event invite and was asked to join in to eat food served on banana leaves which was delicious. Yummy.

As Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present, it feels akward to see them praying to stone idols. So if there is a prayer and I was invited, I would recite Gurbani in my heart and not to the stone idols or maybe not be involved in the prayer at all as they go against Guru Nanaks teachings. Not too sure what I would do actually.

I have also been to churches especially when younger as we went to a catholic school as long as we did not take their amrit. My parents attitude was that Akal Purakh is everywhere so if they would see a Mosque or a Church or a Mandir or a Buddhist temple, they would say "Waheguroo Satnaam" too. The only place I would not go to is a mosque for various personal reasons. Again the same applies as regards to prayers. Do their prayers go against Guru Nanak ji's teachings?
Visiting to do seva of cleaning.. yes. I went to a church a few years ago with a friend as she had to do cleaning seva before we went shopping. She said that she will drop me off at home first or something like that, but I said i will came along and helped in the cleaning seva to the Christians sangat amazement so I explained briefly "Selfless Seva" in Sikhi way of life to my friend. He..he..

I think the same applies to going to caste name Gurdwara's. Difficult choice. What should we really do.?