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Hard Talk Disgraced At Our Communities Commitment To Equality

Harkiran Kaur

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At least skin colour in Sikhism doesn't get you a 'limited' license to practice the religion like being female does.
 

Admin

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At least skin colour in Sikhism doesn't get you a 'limited' license to practice the religion like being female does.
Harikiran ji, you are a very strong character. Please don't judge a philosophy by its followers... you will be disappointed always... Sikhi is your personal journey, do not be distracted by how it is being practiced by others for their ulterior gains...
 
Apr 12, 2007
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maintain a personal relationship god and guru granth sahib. Don't bother so much about belonging to the sikh community
That's the thing too many people confuse culture with views that are many amongst all communities religious opinions people need to work out and study or understand what they believe in themselves. As for people humans they act an react differently according to cultural norms situations and scenarios to justify people's actions as a result of religion is totally unfair. Individual's exist the differences of humans exist but to define that as a religion is totally false. People should educate themselves on a topic if they are to debate it. As for individual's; small mind's discuss us insignificant individual's. Great mind's discuss idea's!
 

Brother Onam

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Jul 11, 2012
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I still do not seem to see black members of society in our temples!
Sat Sri Akaal ji,
I can comment about one angle, in West Africa.
Sikhs, like many Indians in Africa, have come primarily to make money. There are some individuals who are genuinely motivated to be curious about Africa or seek to learn about and maybe aid African people in need, but on the whole, Africans observe Sikhs as being fat (let's be honest!) foreigners in big SUV's, who keep amongst themselves, gather for worship amongst themselves and go back to their isolated communities. If there be interaction, it is usually either when going to Sikhs for business or else menial labour around home or temple. I knew one wonderful African youth who was always polite and cheerful, who worked at a Gurudwara. When I ran into him some time later and asked him why I hadn't seen him for some months, he said he had been scolded for something, slapped, and had his shirt torn by one of the Sikhs whom he worked for. (he was quite poor and probably didn't have many shirts)
All of this is just to say, if we genuinely want to see Black faces sharing in the blessing of Sikh dharma, we need to be conscious of how we interact with our neighbors. With the best of intentions we may go about our lives not realizing how we are perceived by those whom we would gladly draw into our sanghat.
Having said that, there is also the flip-side. When you have the tradition of langar in an impoverished place, you're sure to draw those who come only for the free food. We know them: those with shaved faces who show up at the tail-end of the service, put on a pretense of devotion and are quickly in place for the food hand-out. That will certainly breed a degree of cynicism or alienation on the part of Sikh sanghat in time.
This is all in reference to Africa. I personally feel that Sikhi is a most natural and needful religion for Black people, if only the right outreach be established. If the Black community had an avenue of discovery and dialogue with Sikhi, it would be a great fit all the way around.
Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru
 
Apr 12, 2007
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Sat Sri Akaal ji,
I can comment about one angle, in West Africa.
Sikhs, like many Indians in Africa, have come primarily to make money. There are some individuals who are genuinely motivated to be curious about Africa or seek to learn about and maybe aid African people in need, but on the whole, Africans observe Sikhs as being fat (let's be honest!) foreigners in big SUV's, who keep amongst themselves, gather for worship amongst themselves and go back to their isolated communities. If there be interaction, it is usually either when going to Sikhs for business or else menial labour around home or temple. I knew one wonderful African youth who was always polite and cheerful, who worked at a Gurudwara. When I ran into him some time later and asked him why I hadn't seen him for some months, he said he had been scolded for something, slapped, and had his shirt torn by one of the Sikhs whom he worked for. (he was quite poor and probably didn't have many shirts)
All of this is just to say, if we genuinely want to see Black faces sharing in the blessing of Sikh dharma, we need to be conscious of how we interact with our neighbors. With the best of intentions we may go about our lives not realizing how we are perceived by those whom we would gladly draw into our sanghat.
Having said that, there is also the flip-side. When you have the tradition of langar in an impoverished place, you're sure to draw those who come only for the free food. We know them: those with shaved faces who show up at the tail-end of the service, put on a pretense of devotion and are quickly in place for the food hand-out. That will certainly breed a degree of cynicism or alienation on the part of Sikh sanghat in time.
This is all in reference to Africa. I personally feel that Sikhi is a most natural and needful religion for Black people, if only the right outreach be established. If the Black community had an avenue of discovery and dialogue with Sikhi, it would be a great fit all the way around.
Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru

All I can say to that is mate. If you have a feed the world programme and the only programme you are establishing doesn't include the world then realistically what is your service. On the contrary of who is feeding who you need to take a closer look and further examination on understanding the ground and roof that each individual is standing under. Waheguru ji ki Khalsa and Waheguru ji ki fathe. Always remember the steps you take to stand they can also help you remember how you learnt to walk. Knowledge and Perseverance = Mat and Santokh.
 
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Apr 12, 2007
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Another disgrace a Sikh joined the armed forces of the Pakistan regiments on the wagh border parade and no mention of it on here not even a trace. Disgusting politics how much of our lives, families cultural heritages have been wasted on policy an not on diplomacy is beyond belief. Disgraceful.
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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Another disgrace a Sikh joined the armed forces of the Pakistan regiments on the wagh border parade and no mention of it on here not even a trace. Disgusting politics how much of our lives, families cultural heritages have been wasted on policy an not on diplomacy is beyond belief. Disgraceful.
How is a Sikh joining the parade on the Pakistan side a disgrace?
 

Admin

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Another disgrace a Sikh joined the armed forces of the Pakistan regiments on the wagh border parade and no mention of it on here not even a trace. Disgusting politics how much of our lives, families cultural heritages have been wasted on policy an not on diplomacy is beyond belief. Disgraceful.
@Parma ji, a little confused and perturbed by your response. :confused: SPN is a forum powered by its members. If you find something worthy of posting on SPN, you should simply post it. SPN is as apolitical forum as they come these days. Our sincere apologies if we do not meet your benchmarks...
 
Apr 12, 2007
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How is a Sikh joining the parade on the Pakistan side a disgrace?
Please note to the reader to read posts as well as the title of this thread it properly explains out my definition even before they consider to respond to the full post it is showing that your opinions maybe misguided as well as devisive as i do not see any responses aplauding the Sikh community when they are performing a service that is different from the normal an out reaches to further extend the welcome to Sikhs in different places. Sikhism was always a humanitarian service not a political asylum an I hope that Sikh's will always be prepared to take up issues of humanity rather than issues of politics to further enhance its peaceful message. All though the world exists in all spheres of mind frames itself I guess we reserve the right to respond an keep things in a balance as an when the service or seva to keep its shaan is required. Just pointing out issues of concern of course the evident response is to the public and not to anyone individual as individually I also require issues pointing out on occasions I'm not perfect but the panth of course the full embodiment the sat sangat in all its glory should be.
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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We're do you live? ? Sikism is the most welcoming religion to females ever!!!!
Then why do so many "Singhs" still want to see women in a subordinate role??

- Women can't do kirtan at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do Palki Sahib Seva at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do washing of sanctum sanctorum and most other seva at Darbar Sahib.
Since Darbar Sahib is the most prominent Sikh holy place this place more than any other, should demonstrate equality!!!

- Some sects who have their own Rehet Maryada, keep women from seva as Panj Pyaras, even though there is nothing in gurbani to say they should limited from anything. And even though Sikh Rehet Maryada, the only accepted RM by Akal Takht says men or women can do seva as Panj Pyaras.
- The same sects, in their same RM also instruct women to see their husband as a God (Parmeshwar) over them, while the husband is told to see his wife as only a "faithful follower".
- The same sects, are the ones who oppose women doing seva on par with men at Darbar Sahib.
- Their RM also states women can not do seva during menstruation, even though Gurbani is clear that there is no such thing as sootak in Sikhi, Gurbani states that impurity is only in the mind.

- Most Gurdwara management everywhere across the planet is done by all men. I am one of the rare ones who as a female served on the executive now two years. Last year I was treasurer for my local Gurdwara. But may places, the Singhs would think it absolutely scandalous if a woman was elected to the Management Committee.

- I have interacted with a Singh online who said that being born a woman is result of bad karma and that it is a downgrade from a male body and a punishment. That males are higher status than females. That wives should bow to their husbands out of respect (but not the other way around) because the husband is higher status than the wife. Yes this guy is a Singh.

This is only a few examples. I am actually really depressed by the thoughts of some Singhs and really wondering if I was born into this body as a punishment...
 

Ishna

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Please note to the reader to read posts as well as the title of this thread it properly explains out my definition even before they consider to respond to the full post it is showing that your opinions maybe misguided as well as devisive as i do not see any responses aplauding the Sikh community when they are performing a service that is different from the normal an out reaches to further extend the welcome to Sikhs in different places. Sikhism was always a humanitarian service not a political asylum an I hope that Sikh's will always be prepared to take up issues of humanity rather than issues of politics to further enhance its peaceful message. All though the world exists in all spheres of mind frames itself I guess we reserve the right to respond an keep things in a balance as an when the service or seva to keep its shaan is required. Just pointing out issues of concern of course the evident response is to the public and not to anyone individual as individually I also require issues pointing out on occasions I'm not perfect but the panth of course the full embodiment the sat sangat in all its glory should be.
Sadly, we can't be across all of the Sikh news worldwide. As Admin Ji said, please feel free to share such good news with the sangat.

I did not intend to offend you by asking you for clarity...

However, the theme of the thread is largely about gender equality, so I'm not sure where the 'misguided opinions' and the 'divisiveness' that you perceive exists.

Can you please tell me what "shaan" means? Thank you.
 
Apr 12, 2007
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Sadly, we can't be across all of the Sikh news worldwide. As Admin Ji said, please feel free to share such good news with the sangat.

I did not intend to offend you by asking you for clarity...

However, the theme of the thread is largely about gender equality, so I'm not sure where the 'misguided opinions' and the 'divisiveness' that you perceive exists.

Can you please tell me what "shaan" means? Thank you.
Shaan is a punjabi word that has a varied use as it's hard to translate to English terminology but is commonly used as a metaphor as an exemplary for standard or praise.


Sorry but I have responded to your post as to how the subject was perceived without your further clarification on the subject. Where I believe my post was clearly intentioned not only from the start of the title of the thread but also from further points in further postings. Also you mention that my posting emphasises a disgrace in its message to the Sikhs performance. If you read my post it reiterates my position on my point that it's a disgrace to not mention any praise on an individual who has progressed in some of the most harshest environments to gain a recognition as a member of a communities achievements as our under achievers are provided enough ample attention.:bluekhanda:
 
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Harry Haller

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Then why do so many "Singhs" still want to see women in a subordinate role??
I think most Sikhs see women as complete equals, I think you have issues with those that run Sikhism at the present time.

- Women can't do kirtan at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do Palki Sahib Seva at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do washing of sanctum sanctorum and most other seva at Darbar Sahib.
Since Darbar Sahib is the most prominent Sikh holy place this place more than any other, should demonstrate equality!!!
I could say that since you are new to the religion, you could possibly show a bit more respect for rules and traditions that have clearly been there for centuries. It does beg the question as to why you converted to a religion where the above points have been in place for many many years. I personally do not agree with the above points, however, I would have thought the complete lack of direction, complete lack of information and complete lack of understanding of Sikhism across the quom is probably more important than who washes what. It confuses me, did you become a Sikh to change Sikhism, albeit possibly for the better, but you could end up banging your head against a brick wall,.

Some sects who have their own Rehet Maryada, keep women from seva as Panj Pyaras, even though there is nothing in gurbani to say they should limited from anything. And even though Sikh Rehet Maryada, the only accepted RM by Akal Takht says men or women can do seva as Panj Pyaras.
- The same sects, in their same RM also instruct women to see their husband as a God (Parmeshwar) over them, while the husband is told to see his wife as only a "faithful follower".
- The same sects, are the ones who oppose women doing seva on par with men at Darbar Sahib.
- Their RM also states women can not do seva during menstruation, even though Gurbani is clear that there is no such thing as sootak in Sikhi, Gurbani states that impurity is only in the mind.
who cares? I know of sects where a sexual orgy is part of the initiation ceremony, in the world today there are sects that come up with all sorts of difference of opinion, surely your Sikhism is between you and whoever you call God, why are you so worried about what other people think or do?

Most Gurdwara management everywhere across the planet is done by all men. I am one of the rare ones who as a female served on the executive now two years. Last year I was treasurer for my local Gurdwara. But may places, the Singhs would think it absolutely scandalous if a woman was elected to the Management Committee.
These Gurdwaras that make it difficult for female members are invariably mired in much more corruptive practices than just sexual discrimination, there will be financial irregularities, mutual back scratching, all sorts, unfortunately corruption and bribery are seen as quite normal in our society.
- I have interacted with a Singh online who said that being born a woman is result of bad karma and that it is a downgrade from a male body and a punishment. That males are higher status than females. That wives should bow to their husbands out of respect (but not the other way around) because the husband is higher status than the wife. Yes this guy is a Singh.
If I took seriously every conversation I had with someone on line, I could be here all day, just the other day, someone on line kept calling me an atheist, basically inferring that I am not a Sikh because I do not believe in the same Sikhism that they believe in, we are all entitled to our own opinions are we not?

This is only a few examples. I am actually really depressed by the thoughts of some Singhs and really wondering if I was born into this body as a punishment...
that sounds quite fickle, I expected you to have a bit more strength of mind
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught us by example to challenge rules which were not just.
No I did not follow Sikhi because I wanted to change it. But I also don't think limiting all the women was what our Gurus had in mind. So yes, the way it's being run is an issue. It's hard to have respect for rules that make no sense and serve only to discriminate and build a hierarchy based on gender where males have more privilege. Strength of mind is all well and good. It's all well and good to ignore those who want to discriminate... that is until they say "no sorry you're a woman" when you go to do seva etc. and they are the ones controlling things.
 

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The shabd under discussion in this article is composed by Guru Teg Bahadur ji and is contained on Page 633 of the SGGS. The complete shabd is as follows:

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