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Hard Talk Disgraced At Our Communities Commitment To Equality

Harkiran Kaur

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You sound really condescending Harry Ji. I don't have time for it. I'm actually at home with probably gallbladder attack.

I'm not the only female who believes these self serving men in control are wrong. And vast majority were born into Sikhi. Those 'rules' are not Sikh rules or else they would be universally enforced. Case in point i'm on the executive here!
 

Harry Haller

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You sound really condescending Harry Ji. I don't have time for it. I'm actually at home with probably gallbladder attack.

I'm not the only female who believes these self serving men in control are wrong. And vast majority were born into Sikhi. Those 'rules' are not Sikh rules or else they would be universally enforced. Case in point i'm on the executive here!

I hope you get well soon, I hope one day Sikhism allows you to do all the things you wish to do that you cannot at the moment.
 
Apr 11, 2007
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I was going to challenge your interpretation of Guru Nanak on this issue but I'll leave it for a more detailed analysis of response for anyone else who wants. God bless. What time is it?:closedsingh:.
 
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Ishna

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Harry Ji, a reminder to discuss issues/topics and not personalities. Your post has been deleted because it's more like it's putting Harkiran Ji under the microscope than discussing equality, equal opportunity and discrimination.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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I was going to challenge your interpretation of Guru Nanak on this issue but I'll leave it for a more detailed analysis of response for anyone else who wants. God bless. What time is it?:closedsingh:.

Parma Ji,

Please discuss. Do you believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for or against equality? And if so, was gender equality included in that? Is the picture of Sikhi all across the net, in books etc trying to tout Sikhi is egalitarian and welcoming for women, really just lip service? Everywhere you go you see it written that Sikhi considers men and women as equal- not just gender but every human is equal. "As Gurmukh, look upon ALL with a single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained" There should be no need to post the full shabad that line is pretty self evident.
 

ActsOfGod

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Harkiran Ji,

I would surmise that when you were first exposed to Sikhi, it appealed to you in no small measure due to the emphasis on egalitarianism and especially gender equality. This has been, still is and always will be in the message that Guru Sahib has delivered to us. This is what Guru Sahib lived, and this is the ideal that we all are to strive for.

Human beings, as they are, are flawed creatures. And the fact remains that whenever there is an institution that is managed or run by humans, there will invariably be failings.

I daresay that today, we have a very very minuscule number of Singhs and Singhnee's who could compare to the Great Sikhs of days gone by. Some poets have likened the present situation of the Sikh Quom as that of a gravely wounded lion, bleeding and left for dead. It perhaps would not be an exaggeration to state that the Sikhs today are nowhere near the strength or inspiration that they had been once. Sometimes it even seems that all that's left is a mere shadow of the greatness that once was.

By and large, Sikhs have disconnected from Bani. The result can be seen in these all too frequent news reports of fighting breaking out in Gurudwara's. The latest news is from Turlock, California. Seeing all the sangat engaged in what appears like a petty bar-room brawl is painful enough, and then the really heartbreaking sight of the local police with shoes on and uncovered heads, and with weapons drawn, walking inside Darbar Sahib, will just about break any Sikhs heart. (I understand the police were called in to keep the peace, so the sangat really have only themselves to blame. They, most of all, should understand the meaning of Guru's Darbar in the Sikh ethos.) Furthermore, this is really not the type of publicity that Sikhs needs to be creating for themselves these days.

http://www.punjabspectrum.co/news/fight-inside-california-gurdwara-sahib/

http://www.abc10.com/story/news/loc...service-leads-brawl-among-attendees/78609284/

With the Quom in this state today, is it any wonder that problems such as the ones you've highlighted abound? Gender equality is only one issue. There are many, many, many other equally wrong things that are happening that must be corrected. And with great urgency.

A few thoughts on your questions below:

Then why do so many "Singhs" still want to see women in a subordinate role??

Those Singhs are ignorant of the teachings of Guru Sahib regarding gender equality. I would not get into heated arguments trying to convince them otherwise, they are on their own journey and they must learn and discover as part of their own learning., just as we all must. I would try instead to focus on my own inner spiritual development. However, if you must engage with them regarding this topic, it is helpful to commit a shabad to memory (Guru Nanak Sahib, Raag Aasaa, M1, Ang 473), which I will copy at the very end of this message.

Guru Sahib's Bani is supreme. Nobody can argue with it. If any Singh or Singhnee attempts to put you in a subordinate role or to argue with you that you or any female belongs in a subordinate role, kindly quote them Guru Sahib's Bani, and the important thing here is to do it with all the love in your heart, do it kindly and sweetly, with no malice or hatred or anger. You may recite it with your mouth and words, or you may write it, or reference it on your phone or Gutka Sahib. And then leave them to ponder and reflect. No amount of arguing or persuasion from facts, data, statistics, biology, etc. or your intellect will have as much impact or power as one Shabad from Guru Sahib.

The important thing here, if you want to be a positive agent of change, is to do it with love. I know this is probably the hardest thing to ask you to do, especially when these people vex you so much. But that is precisely the challenge, and that is where all the spiritual growth lies. It's the people who get to us, who have the most to teach us about ourselves and of life. If it helps, you may view them as uneducated, maybe like schoolchildren who just didn't have the correct teacher to explain things to them. But always, love them. Even if they may be performing such discrimination against you, don't hold anger in your heart for them. Love them, and they will learn. They need your love.

- Women can't do kirtan at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do Palki Sahib Seva at Darbar Sahib
- Women can't do washing of sanctum sanctorum and most other seva at Darbar Sahib.
Since Darbar Sahib is the most prominent Sikh holy place this place more than any other, should demonstrate equality!!!

It should be. However, this is just one of a long list of problems with the current leadership. Corruption is rife, blasphemy and sacrilege are regular occurrences, and the truthful and just people are being locked up in jails and tortured. Justice has taken wings and fled. The very Sikh institutions that the leaders are supposed to protect and uphold are being attacked and undermined. Even the panj pyare are not exempt. This is the sorry state to which Sikhism has been reduced to. It is notable that the elected interim Jathedar stated that in all of Sikh history, there has not been more sacrilege done than in the last several months. Where does this road lead?

- Some sects who have their own Rehet Maryada, keep women from seva as Panj Pyaras, even though there is nothing in gurbani to say they should limited from anything. And even though Sikh Rehet Maryada, the only accepted RM by Akal Takht says men or women can do seva as Panj Pyaras.

Sects are a dime a dozen. If you have not pledged allegiance to them, then don't let it bother you this much. You are not beholden to their rules. Gurbani should be your ultimate guide.

- The same sects, in their same RM also instruct women to see their husband as a God (Parmeshwar) over them, while the husband is told to see his wife as only a "faithful follower".
- The same sects, are the ones who oppose women doing seva on par with men at Darbar Sahib.
- Their RM also states women can not do seva during menstruation, even though Gurbani is clear that there is no such thing as sootak in Sikhi, Gurbani states that impurity is only in the mind.

These are Hindu beliefs and anyone practicing them is not following Sikhi or the teachings of Guru Sahib. Anyone who has any doubts can consult Guru Sahib directly.

- Most Gurdwara management everywhere across the planet is done by all men. I am one of the rare ones who as a female served on the executive now two years. Last year I was treasurer for my local Gurdwara. But may places, the Singhs would think it absolutely scandalous if a woman was elected to the Management Committee.

This is changing, but as with all things, all too slowly I'm afraid. But it is going in the right direction.

- I have interacted with a Singh online who said that being born a woman is result of bad karma and that it is a downgrade from a male body and a punishment. That males are higher status than females. That wives should bow to their husbands out of respect (but not the other way around) because the husband is higher status than the wife. Yes this guy is a Singh.

This is also a mistaken belief that was derived from the Hindu philosophy of life. According to Gurbani, there is no downgrade or upgrade. If you're born as a human being, we're all here equally due to our merit. And it is an equal chance for male and female to aspire to the Divine. If this Singh believes he is of a higher status than a female, then he is falling prey to the same thinking like caste-ism or racism etc. The proposed remedy for him is to study Gurbani (because clearly he hasn't). When his mind is illuminated, then he will achieve realization, with Gurus kirpa.

This is only a few examples. I am actually really depressed by the thoughts of some Singhs and really wondering if I was born into this body as a punishment...

I will state a few things that I know to be unequivocally true: you are born as a human due to your merit (karma). Being a female and embodying the feminine is a great honor that the entire world does cherish and respect. Far from being a punishment, it is a privilege.

It really is irrelevant what others say or think, what's most important is what you think. If you keep putting your power into the hands of other folks, especially these Singhs, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

My advice is to reclaim your power, and reveal your heart to Guru Sahib. He has already provided all the answers, now do Ardas to have the courage to walk in His way, according to His Hukam.

To be clear, the issues about women's rights at Darbar Sahib will not be solved overnight (although I am optimistic that they will be solved, but it may take a long, long time). If you place your happiness and contentment on the condition that women be allowed to perform seva at Darbar Sahib, then you shall be unhappy for a very long time.

Since the primary focus in Sikhi is between the Creator and the soul, it would be more fruitful (and ultimately more rewarding), to strengthen your connection with Waheguru while at the same time working to address the issues of womens rights.

Also, take heart from the fact that Guru Sahib is on your side. When you look around, you see corruption and ignorance surrounding you. But Mai Bhago, how blessed she was to serve as a bodyguard for Guru Sahib. So don't give up or get depressed because of some peoples ignorance.

How do you know what Guru Sahib's mission for you is? Perhaps it's staring you right in the face all this time and you never recognized it ....

Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan.

[AoG]



ਮਃ

1st Guru.
ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ
Within a woman, the man is conceived and from a woman he is born. With a woman he is betrothed and married.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ
With the woman man contracts friendship and with a woman the system of propagation keep on going.

ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ
When one's wife dies, another lady is sought for. It is through a woman that man restraints his passions.

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ
Why call her bad, from whom are born the king.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੀ ਭੰਡੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਕੋਇ
From a woman, a woman is born, Without a woman, there, can be none.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ
Nanak, only the one True Lord, is without a woman.

ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਭਾਗਾ ਰਤੀ ਚਾਰਿ
The mouth which ever praises the Lord, is fortunate, rosy and beautiful.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
Nanak, those faces shall be bright in the court of that true Lord.

ਪਉੜੀ
Pauri.

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੋ ਚੁਣਿ ਕਢੀਐ
All call Thee their own, O Lord, He, whose Thou art not, is picked up and thrown away.

ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਲੇਖਾ ਸੰਢੀਐ
Every one has to reap the fruit of his own actions and adjust his accounts.

ਜਾ ਰਹਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਐਤੁ ਜਗਿ ਤਾ ਕਾਇਤੁ ਗਾਰਬਿ ਹੰਢੀਐ
Since, one is not to remain in this world; then why should he practise pride?

ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸੈ ਆਖੀਐ ਪੜਿ ਅਖਰੁ ਏਹੋ ਬੁਝੀਐ
Call not any one bad, understand this by reading these words.

ਮੂਰਖੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਲੁਝੀਐ ॥੧੯॥
Argue not with a fool.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Why call her bad from whom Kings are born... is this not just saying that women are only valued for their ability to produce male children?? Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders? Is it implying that only males can be leaders and women are only valued for their ability to give birth to them?? Why are women never discussed in Gurbani in a leadership position? It's always in reference to males... and Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)? I am confused lately. As I am sure Ishna is since she posted that shabad. I read that whole thread, and it seems people are trying to 'force' some meaning out of it which might not be seen as sexist. But all of the attempts seem forced as if they are trying to make it what they want it to be and not reading what's actually there. And this worries me...
 

ActsOfGod

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Why call her bad from whom Kings are born... is this not just saying that women are only valued for their ability to produce male children?? Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders? Is it implying that only males can be leaders and women are only valued for their ability to give birth to them??

That is not the intention of the verse. The term King is used in this context to denote royalty, someone whom would be seen and treated with extreme importance in the society. That does not imply that the Queen has no value as a leader or a VIP.

Why are women never discussed in Gurbani in a leadership position? It's always in reference to males... and Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)? I am confused lately. As I am sure Ishna is since she posted that shabad. I read that whole thread, and it seems people are trying to 'force' some meaning out of it which might not be seen as sexist. But all of the attempts seem forced as if they are trying to make it what they want it to be and not reading what's actually there. And this worries me...

English translations are notoriously inaccurate and usually fail to convey the message as intended. To obtain understanding, context (something which none of the translations can provide) is critical. It is difficult enough as it is, but the language idiosyncracies further complicate matters. The Guru's and other Sikh writers often used cultural constructs that existed in their time to describe concepts and ideas of the of Divine.

I always suggest to people to make the effort to learn and read Gurbani in Gurmukhi. Yes, it takes longer, requires more effort, and progress is sometimes painfully slow. But, the rewards far, far outweigh the required effort and struggle. And once a person has a basic understanding, the growth is accelerated exponentially. The method of introspection on a particular shabad, of reading and learning and contemplating, is how Guru Sahib has advised us to approach Gurbani. It takes time, but in order to obtain an understanding of what Guru Sahib is saying to us, we need to invest that time.

It has been said that Gurbani is a like a mirror. You see your own spiritual growth and your own mind reflected in it. That's one of the reasons why it's different every time. Because you are always growing, always evolving.

If you are hitting what appears to be a brick wall, and you are struggling, it's not that the world is wrong, or that Gurbani is wrong, or that you are wrong. It's a part of your spiritual growth. It happens to all of us. The details may be different, but the process is the same.

I read on a different forum somewhere, a post by a woman who said that after 19 years of learning about and practicing Sikhism, she had decided to leave the religion because of all the sexism and hypocrisy regarding the same issues you've highlighted. Her thoughts were that Sikhism was not the perfect lifestyle she thought she had found. My thoughts were that she had lost the prize because of a misguided focus. What's relevant when Guru Sahib gives instruction or teaching?

The focus is between the soul and the Creator. No matter what else you do, don't lose that.

The other issues, like the sexism in the institutions, needs to be addressed and reformed. But you have to take things in perspective. Railing against the system and then getting depressed and starting to doubt Gurbani, this process is leading you down a path which won't serve you well in the long run.

It's like someone being really passionate about solving world hunger, because truthfully nobody should die of starvation in this modern age when we can easily feed everyone in the world, and then getting depressed because that one person can't change everything overnight.

There are many, many injustices in the world today. There are many wrongs happening, especially in religious institutions. Reformation is needed. But it won't come overnight. It takes time to sort things out. You should take heart in the fact that the types of folks you have encountered are in the minority.

[AoG]
 

ActsOfGod

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Why call her bad from whom Kings are born... is this not just saying that women are only valued for their ability to produce male children?? Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders? Is it implying that only males can be leaders and women are only valued for their ability to give birth to them?? Why are women never discussed in Gurbani in a leadership position? It's always in reference to males... and Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)? I am confused lately. As I am sure Ishna is since she posted that shabad. I read that whole thread, and it seems people are trying to 'force' some meaning out of it which might not be seen as sexist. But all of the attempts seem forced as if they are trying to make it what they want it to be and not reading what's actually there. And this worries me...

If you are still not satisfied, then the only thing left to do is to ask Guru Sahib.

Take some quiet time that is unrushed, and perform Ardas, ask Guru Sahib your questions regarding the above. And then take a Hukamnama. Guru Sahib will answer your questions directly.

[AoG]
 

Ishna

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I cringe a little when the verse about giving birth to kings is quoted to support gender equality in Gurbani.

What I've learned, Harkiran Ji, is that Gurbani really doesn't spruik gender equality, despite what salespeople of Sikhi say.

Gurbani is beyond talking about gender. You are aware - it talks about Oneness of all Creation, which is total and complete equality of everything, ever. Gender is merely a product of Maya. This is another example of how perfect Gurbani is, because it teaches concepts that can be applied to anyone, at any time, in any place. By teaching ultimate Oneness, everyone is automatically equal, even aliens we haven't met yet.

I agree 100% with Acts of God Ji; "Human beings, as they are, are flawed creatures. And the fact remains that whenever there is an institution that is managed or run by humans, there will invariably be failings."

Please don't fall out of love with Sikhi because some people are misguided and burning in the mud of Maya. Hold tight to your Sikh philosophy, and let that light be what helps you be a force for change in the world, separate from your spirituality which is safely entwined in the bliss that is Gurbani, the essence of Sikhi.

Believe me, I've been on this merry-go-round of in/out of Sikhi for more reasons that I can count, equality being one of them. It has only been in the last year or so that I've left all that in Maya where it belongs, and hold the essence of Gurbani close and dear. That way, you'll be protected against any discrimination, be it about your gender, your heritage, the colour of your skin, your native language, your job, whether you choose to have children or not, etc.
 

Sherdil

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Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)?

Actually, it is the men who are being critiqued in that shabadh. Their actions are motivated by lust for their women rather than respect.

Kaam is a part of Maya / Haumai.

The poetry in Gurbani also serves as social commentary. The time period examples used to illustrate the message shouldn't distract you from the message itself, which is timeless.
 
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Harry Haller

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Why call her bad from whom Kings are born... is this not just saying that women are only valued for their ability to produce male children?? Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders? Is it implying that only males can be leaders and women are only valued for their ability to give birth to them?? Why are women never discussed in Gurbani in a leadership position? It's always in reference to males... and Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)? I am confused lately.

I think any intelligent person could answer this given the period of time that the SGGS was written, and the events taking place. I am surprised that you are not able to navigate through this and see beyond the words to the message contained, but you seem to be focused on the literall.

Let us look at the first statement, 'Why call her bad from whom Kings are born', given that the attitude towards women at the time was quite repressive, such a statement is actually quite a milestone, it actually means that it is through women that we all achieve birth, and therefore the importance and respect of women is paramount, well that is what it says to me. I do not think you are confused at all, I think you have started reading the SGGS with a very warped view that suits your own agenda.

You write:-

does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)

I am surprised you ask the question, in my mind there is absolutely no doubt as to the answer, the answer is no, that you have to ask the question and are confused about it bemuses me.
 

Ishna

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I do not think you are confused at all, I think you have started reading the SGGS with a very warped view that suits your own agenda.

Don't we all, though? It is our human nature to interpret the poetry with the best of our intellect at any given time, and since we are all so different, we're bound to read the Gurbani differently.

It's part of what makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji a living Guru for Sikhs; the lessons change depending on the student's level of study of Gurbani and through living life. To be perfectly clear, the Gurbani never changes; it is the student who changes relative to the Gurbani.

I don't think Harkiran Ji has an "agenda". She is who she is at this moment in time, just as we are who we are.

But again, lets refrain from turning the discussion on to individuals and focus on the topic at hand. Thanks.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Why call her bad from whom Kings are born... is this not just saying that women are only valued for their ability to produce male children?? Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders? Is it implying that only males can be leaders and women are only valued for their ability to give birth to them?? Why are women never discussed in Gurbani in a leadership position? It's always in reference to males... and Ishna brought up a good shabad awhile back that basically tells men it is wrong to consult their women. (does this mean that Gurbani is actually saying we as women should be in a subordinate role and have no input or say in society or even home life)? I am confused lately. As I am sure Ishna is since she posted that shabad. I read that whole thread, and it seems people are trying to 'force' some meaning out of it which might not be seen as sexist. But all of the attempts seem forced as if they are trying to make it what they want it to be and not reading what's actually there. And this worries me...


Harkiran ji,

Guru fateh.

Many Sikhs misunderstand the true meaning of this shabad. It is not about "Why not say Kings and Queens or Leaders"?- our words. Many people today have a very regal opinion about the Kings and Emperors of yestercenturies. They are worshipped and revered which is far from the reality.

Kings were the most cruel and fiendish people of their times. They were the true looters while sitting on their gilded thrones.

And Guru Nanak called them as he saw them, with no clothes on.

So, the interpretation according to me about the Shabad is, " Why do you talk ill about the woman who even gave birth to the fiends- the kings".
 
Apr 11, 2007
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Parma Ji,

Please discuss. Do you believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for or against equality? And if so, was gender equality included in that? Is the picture of Sikhi all across the net, in books etc trying to tout Sikhi is egalitarian and welcoming for women, really just lip service? Everywhere you go you see it written that Sikhi considers men and women as equal- not just gender but every human is equal. "As Gurmukh, look upon ALL with a single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained" There should be no need to post the full shabad that line is pretty self evident.


When it comes to equal opportunities policy via Guru Nanaks philosophical expressions I find it affords the equal reverence to let's say a blade of grass as it does to a humanoid so work that one out as an equal opportunities policy. Also as humans the crazy female wishes to add value to her pert nipples. The crazy male wishes to add value to his mentally muscle headed blade. And I love the idea in which Guru Nanak says stuff like the whole lot of you are temporary its God that provided for my service now work that one out for yourselves you bunch of {censored} because he tried to enforce a new system and everyone ripped it off. So look at yourselves the ones who have the finance and have control of monetary policies to review and change the way they view finance, humanity, cosmos and stop blaming the poor cultivar whom has to abide by the financial systems put in place as you've disrupted a peaceful existence giving the Amazon rain forest people as some sort of example then people blame the rest of humanity for its problem's or businesses. Equally male and female are both measurable to blame for the crisis of the world's system operations and so that makes you both humans responsible for delivering in its assistance and us humble minded people have no option but to abide by practice in order to defraud the same notion back. Good day. God bless.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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When it comes to equal opportunities policy via Guru Nanaks philosophical expressions I find it affords the equal reverence to let's say a blade of grass as it does to a humanoid so work that one out as an equal opportunities policy. Also as humans the crazy female wishes to add value to her pert nipples. The crazy male wishes to add value to his mentally muscle headed blade. And I love the idea in which Guru Nanak says stuff like the whole lot of you are temporary its God that provided for my service now work that one out for yourselves you bunch of {censored word, do not repeat.} because he tried to enforce a new system and everyone ripped it off. So look at yourselves the ones who have the finance and have control of monetary policies to review and change the way they view finance, humanity, cosmos and stop blaming the poor cultivar whom has to abide by the financial systems put in place as you've disrupted a peaceful existence giving the Amazon rain forest people as some sort of example then people blame the rest of humanity for its problem's or businesses. Equally male and female are both measurable to blame for the crisis of the world's system operations and so that makes you both humans responsible for delivering in its assistance and us humble minded people have no option but to abide by practice in order to defraud the same notion back. Good day. God bless.


Parma ji,

Pardon my ignorance. Can you please put the above in lay man's terms because it is difficult for me to decipher what message are you trying to convey or what lesson are you trying to teach?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
 
Apr 11, 2007
351
262
Parma ji,

Pardon my ignorance. Can you please put the above in lay man's terms because it is difficult for me to decipher what message are you trying to convey or what lesson are you trying to teach?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Yeh there's a mention of nipples in the Granth an I guess I am explaining how the female form is used in regards to the male form an how people interpret it to form an outlook to inequality. Also equality is always financial in respects as the physical form of equality is hard for anyone to change but the financial equality is just civilized policy they are asking the individual to look beyond the physical scope an see the nature of who individual's are. Getting a bit off topic here but on another point I was reading an article on a; Sardar Saini, without getting caught up with the political motivation for it but a Mr Saini who seems to be a saint of a figure seems to be getting fitted up under pretences of charges without any real evidence as equal rights would be afforded to him in the UK. Who knows what the real motivations are I would just like to show my support to the gentleman a fellow member of society.
 
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Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
Yeh there's a mention of nipples in the Granth an I guess I am explaining how the female form is used in regards to the male form an how people interpret it to form an outlook to inequality. Also equality is always financial in respects as the physical form of equality is hard for anyone to change but the financial equality is just civilized policy they are asking the individual to look beyond the physical scope an see the nature of who individual's are. Getting a bit off topic here but on another point I was reading an article on a; Sardar Saini, without getting caught up with the political motivation for it but a Mr Saini who seems to be a saint of a figure seems to be getting fitted up under pretences of charges without any real evidence as equal rights would be afforded to him in the UK. Who knows what the real motivations are I would just like to show my support to the gentleman a fellow member of society.

Please share with us your vision of Equality.

Thanks
 
Apr 11, 2007
351
262
Please share with us your vision of Equality.

Thanks

My vision of equality I do not have one mine is the same as what i have learned from the following mention above I am also a servant too of the formless as mentioned throughout history and throughout space from every atom signifying existence having said that though who isn't without getting deep on the philosophy of it but I guess it comes down to what individual's or society is willing to accept as equal rights and responsibilities and what it isn't. Personally I don't wish to accept to be a burden an neither do I wish to accept to become one. That's as simple and as deep as my philosophy bears upon my thoughts mention of equal rights.
 
Last edited:

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
My vision of equality I do not have one mine is the same as what i have learned from the following mention above I am also a servant too of the formless as mentioned throughout history and throughout space from every atom signifying existence having said that though who isn't without getting deep on the philosophy of it but I guess it comes down to what individual's or society is willing to accept as equal rights and responsibilities and what it isn't. Personally I don't wish to accept to be a burden an neither do I wish to accept to become one. That's as simple and as deep as my philosophy bears upon my thoughts mention of equal rights.

If I understand what you are trying say which is that you are a follower of equality depending on others, not a pioneer as Guru Nanak wants us to be in our every day lives, a very important part of Miri which is the fruit of Piri.
 

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