Atheism Did God Create An Imperfect World?

[Tejwant Singh]

“This world is full of pain, misery and sickness. God, being omni potent could easily created a perfect world”
Dear brothers/ Sisters,
We come to the point. The pain, misery and sickness. Every body has a different definition of these three words.
Misery: First of all I come to the history when Bhai Mati Dasji was offered earthly boons to agree to the points of Aurangzeb. But Bhaiji had no attraction of his offerings. When one has no attraction and temptation then the miseries have no significance in his/her life.
Pain: When Bhai Mati Dass saw two cruel butchers ready to cut him alive in to two haves. His steadfast faith in the almighty was so great that the pains, Gold and dust were equal to him. He has not bothered about the pleasure which he can have or pain which he will have to face. He did not even care to look towards his family members at the time of his execution.
Sickness: Bhai Mati Das adorned the crown of martyrdom. Why? Because he was permanenty entrenched in the Lotus feet of his beloved Satguru, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahibji. Points to be considered:

• He drank the cup of sorrow, misery, pain, brutal torture and affliction as delightfully as if it was Nectar.
• His face radiated like a sun even when being brutally tortured and cut. Aurangzeb severed his body in two but could not saw and cut his Love to the almighty.
• Kindly go through Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (534) ----

“Raj Na Chahau Mukat Na Chahau
Man Preet Charan kamalaray”
“I crave not for kingdom or Mukti (Salvation), My soul thirsts for the love Your Lotus feet.

• We come to another example of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib. He sat on the bruning hot griddle under the Cruel Shower of burning hot sand. The same scstasy was manifest on the Holy face of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib when the most cruel death was handed out to him by the most DOGMATIC EMPEROR of the time.

Conclusion:
The Divine lover who is immersed in Guru’s love, in Guru Consciousness, loses body –consciousness and hence feels no pain or torture being inflicated on him. In true love of the Gur, the perfect state of Guru consciousness affords requistie insulation of the soul from body consciousness.

So dear Jasbir Singh Kalekaji, The person who has immersed in Almighty’s love has no reflection of pain and torture misery and sickness.

Rajneesh Madhok

Rajneesh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my bluntness but I do not think it is true that Guru Arjan Dev ji, Guru Teg Bahadur ji did not feel pain while being tortured to death, nor is it true that all other Shaheeds like Bhai Mani Singh ji, Bhai Taru Singh ji, Bhai Mati Das and many others who sacrificed their lived for Sikhi did not feel any pain. It is not possible.

The lesson we receive from these events is that we should be ready to fight for justice no matter what cost one has to pay.

Pain is a phyisical thing. It is part of the human construct. Yes, some can bear more pain than others, but no one is immune to it.

So, by claiming that these wonderful people did not feel any pain do not do any justice to their sacrifices.

And this kind of thinking makes us delve into the realm of miracles which Sikhi rejects.

The proof is in the sacrifices mentioned above.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Astroboy]

YouTube- a killing song by Nusrat fateh ali khan

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Rajneesh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my bluntness but I do not think it is true that Guru Arjan Dev ji, Guru Teg Bahadur ji did not feel pain while being tortured to death, nor is it true that all other Shaheeds like Bhai Mani Singh ji, Bhai Taru Singh ji, Bhai Mati Das and many others who sacrificed their lived for Sikhi did not feel any pain. It is not possible.

The lesson we receive from these events is that we should be ready to fight for justice no matter what cost one has to pay.

Pain is a phyisical thing. It is part of the human construct. Yes, some can bear more pain than others, but no one is immune to it.

So, by claiming that these wonderful people did not feel any pain do not do any justice to their sacrifices.

And this kind of thinking makes us delve into the realm of miracles which Sikhi rejects.

The proof is in the sacrifices mentioned above.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant ji,

I respect you highly, but here I must disagree with you. I know from my own experience that it is possible to not experience pain because this happened to me. It comes from a particular sort of consciousness. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the pain simply doesn't matter, it doesn't penetrate into the consciousness. I have recorded my experience in my post, The Last Time I Was In Amritsar in my blog, The Road To Khalistan.

I certainly would not presume to say what our beloved Gurus and great shaheeds might or might not have experienced; I can only say that the realm of the possible is wider than is generally believed.

BTW, I do not believe in miracles. I believe this is the operation of some natural law that is beyond our present knowledge.

 

[japjisahib04]

Rajneesh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my bluntness but I do not think it is true that Guru Arjan Dev ji, Guru Teg Bahadur ji did not feel pain while being tortured to death, nor is it true that all other Shaheeds like Bhai Mani Singh ji, Bhai Taru Singh ji, Bhai Mati Das and many others who sacrificed their lived for Sikhi did not feel any pain. It is not possible.

The lesson we receive from these events is that we should be ready to fight for justice no matter what cost one has to pay.

Pain is a phyisical thing. It is part of the human construct. Yes, some can bear more pain than others, but no one is immune to it.

So, by claiming that these wonderful people did not feel any pain do not do any justice to their sacrifices.

And this kind of thinking makes us delve into the realm of miracles which Sikhi rejects.

The proof is in the sacrifices mentioned above.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

S. Tejwant Ji,

Your statement is in contradiction to Guru Nanak's claim and even personally experienced by me, 'Nanak bhagata sada veegas'

Best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

S. Tejwant Ji,

Your statement is in contradiction to Guru Nanak's claim and even personally experienced by, 'Nanak bhagata sada veegas'

Best regards

Japji Sahib ji,

Guru Fateh,

Would you be kind enough to elaborate your one liner from Gurbani and how it is related to my post? And please explain it how you understand it, not by just copying and pasting the literal translation from the net.

You can use other whole Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru, as well if you like.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Japji Sahib ji,

Guru Fateh,

Would you be kind enough to elaborate your one liner from Gurbani and how it is related to my post? And please explain it how you understand it, not by just copying and pasting the literal translation from the net.

You can use other whole Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru, as well if you like.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh Ji

The Japji is the key to the Mool Mantar and the quintessence of the teachings and philosophy of Guru Nanak and is the only baani in the Guru Granth Sahib without any Rahao and which can be read and understood as a sustained piece without any ragas. Japjisahib opens the Ek-Onkaar whereas SGGS elborates it. In Japjisahib Guru Nanak has recited four-four stanzas only on one subject and among those stanzas, listening is first and they are in four stanzas. In these four Stanzas he has said persistently and repeatedly that if the devotee listens to the Name of God quite attentively he will enter into a state of bliss, a state of masti (sub-due). However, as wish I am listing a sabd which elobrates and state of devotees.

Bgqw dI sdw qU rKdw hir jIau Duir qU rKdw AwieAw ] (637-13, soriT, mhlw 3)
You always preserve the honor of Your devotees, O Dear Lord; You have protected them from the very beginning of time.
pRihlwd jn quDu rwiK ley hir jIau hrxwKsu mwir pcwieAw ] (637-13, soriT, mhlw 3)
You protected Your servant Prahlaad, O Dear Lord, and annihilated Harnaakhash.
gurmuKw no prqIiq hY hir jIau mnmuK Brim BulwieAw ]1] (637-14, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Gurmukhs place their faith in the Dear Lord, but the self-willed manmukhs are deluded by doubt. ||1||
hir jI eyh qyrI vifAweI ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
O Dear Lord, this is Your Glory.
Bgqw kI pYj rKu qU suAwmI Bgq qyrI srxweI ] rhwau ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
You preserve the honor of Your devotees, O Lord Master; Your devotees seek Your Sanctuary. ||Pause||
Bgqw no jmu joih n swkY kwlu n nyVY jweI ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Messenger of Death cannot touch Your devotees; death cannot even approach them.
kyvl rwm nwmu min visAw nwmy hI mukiq pweI ] (637-16, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Name of the Lord alone abides in their minds; through the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they find liberation.
iriD isiD sB Bgqw crxI lwgI gur kY shij suBweI ]2] (637-16, soriT, mhlw 3)
Wealth and all the spiritual powers of the Siddhis fall at the feet of the Lord's devotees; they obtain peace and poise from the Guru. ||2||
mnmuKw no prqIiq n AwvI AMqir loB suAwau ] (637-17, soriT, mhlw 3)
The self-willed manmukhs have no faith; they are filled with greed and self-interest.
gurmuiK ihrdY sbdu n ByidE hir nwim n lwgw Bwau ] (637-18, soriT, mhlw 3)
They are not Gurmukh - they do not understand the Word of the Shabad in their hearts; they do not love the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
kUV kpt pwju lih jwsI mnmuK PIkw Alwau ]3] (637-18, soriT, mhlw 3)
Their masks of falsehood and hypocrisy shall fall off; the self-willed manmukhs speak with insipid words. ||3||
Bgqw ivic Awip vrqdw pRB jI BgqI hU qU jwqw ] (637-19, soriT, mhlw 3)
You are pervading through Your devotees, O Dear God; through Your devotees, You are known.
mwieAw moh sBlok hY qyrI qU eyko purKu ibDwqw ] (637-19, soriT, mhlw 3)
All the people are enticed by Maya; they are Yours, Lord - You alone are the Architect of Destiny.
haumY mwir mnsw mnih smwxI gur kY sbid pCwqw ]4] (638-1, soriT, mhlw 3)
Overcoming my egotism and quieting the desires within my mind, I have come to realize the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||4||
AicMq kMm krih pRB iqn ky ijn hir kw nwmu ipAwrw ] (638-2, soriT, mhlw 3)
God automatically does the work of those who love the Name of the Lord.
gur prswid sdw min visAw siB kwj svwrxhwrw ] (638-2, soriT, mhlw 3)
By Guru's Grace, he ever dwells in their minds, and He resolves all their affairs.
Enw kI rIs kry su ivgucY ijn hir pRBu hY rKvwrw ]5] (638-3, soriT, mhlw 3)
Whoever challenges them is destroyed; they have the Lord God as their Savior. ||5||
ibnu siqgur syvy iknY n pwieAw mnmuiK Bauik muey ibllweI ] (638-3, soriT, mhlw 3)
Without serving the True Guru, no one finds the Lord; the self-willed manmukhs die crying out in pain.
Awvih jwvih Taur n pwvih duK mih duiK smweI ] (638-4, soriT, mhlw 3)
They come and go, and find no place of rest; in pain and suffering, they perish.
gurmuiK hovY su AMimRqu pIvY shjy swic smweI ]6] (638-5, soriT, mhlw 3)
But one who becomes Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar, and is easily absorbed in the True Name. ||6||
ibnu siqgur syvy jnmu n CofY jy Anyk krm krY AiDkweI ] (638-5, soriT, mhlw 3)
Without serving the True Guru, one cannot escape reincarnation, even by performing numerous rituals.
vyd pVih qY vwd vKwxih ibnu hir piq gvweI ] (638-6, soriT, mhlw 3)
Those who read the Vedas, and argue and debate without the Lord, lose their honor.
scw siqguru swcI ijsu bwxI Bij CUtih gur srxweI ]7] (638-6, soriT, mhlw 3)
True is the True Guru, and True is the Word of His Bani; in the Guru's Sanctuary, one is saved. ||7||
ijn hir min visAw sy dir swcy dir swcY sicAwrw ] (638-7, soriT, mhlw 3)
Those whose minds are filled with the Lord are judged as true in the Court of the Lord; they are hailed as true in the True Court.
Enw dI soBw juig juig hoeI koie n mytxhwrw ] (638-8, soriT, mhlw 3)
Their praises echo throughout the ages, and no one can erase them.
nwnk iqn kY sd bilhwrY ijn hir rwiKAw auir Dwrw ]8]1] (638-8, soriT, mhlw 3)
Nanak is forever a sacrifice to those who enshrine the Lord within their hearts. ||8||1||
Best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh Ji

The Japji is the key to the Mool Mantar and the quintessence of the teachings and philosophy of Guru Nanak and is the only baani in the Guru Granth Sahib without any Rahao and which can be read and understood as a sustained piece without any ragas. In Japjisahib Guru Nanak has recited four-four stanzas only on one subject and among those stanzas, listening is first and they are in four stanzas. In these four Stanzas he has said persistently and repeatedly that if the devotee listens to the Name of God quite attentively he will enter into a state of bliss, a state of masti (sub-due). However, as wish I am listing a sabd which elobrates and state of devotees.

Bgqw dI sdw qU rKdw hir jIau Duir qU rKdw AwieAw ] (637-13, soriT, mhlw 3)
You always preserve the honor of Your devotees, O Dear Lord; You have protected them from the very beginning of time.
pRihlwd jn quDu rwiK ley hir jIau hrxwKsu mwir pcwieAw ] (637-13, soriT, mhlw 3)
You protected Your servant Prahlaad, O Dear Lord, and annihilated Harnaakhash.
gurmuKw no prqIiq hY hir jIau mnmuK Brim BulwieAw ]1] (637-14, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Gurmukhs place their faith in the Dear Lord, but the self-willed manmukhs are deluded by doubt. ||1||
hir jI eyh qyrI vifAweI ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
O Dear Lord, this is Your Glory.
Bgqw kI pYj rKu qU suAwmI Bgq qyrI srxweI ] rhwau ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
You preserve the honor of Your devotees, O Lord Master; Your devotees seek Your Sanctuary. ||Pause||
Bgqw no jmu joih n swkY kwlu n nyVY jweI ] (637-15, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Messenger of Death cannot touch Your devotees; death cannot even approach them.
kyvl rwm nwmu min visAw nwmy hI mukiq pweI ] (637-16, soriT, mhlw 3)
The Name of the Lord alone abides in their minds; through the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they find liberation.
iriD isiD sB Bgqw crxI lwgI gur kY shij suBweI ]2] (637-16, soriT, mhlw 3)
Wealth and all the spiritual powers of the Siddhis fall at the feet of the Lord's devotees; they obtain peace and poise from the Guru. ||2||
mnmuKw no prqIiq n AwvI AMqir loB suAwau ] (637-17, soriT, mhlw 3)
The self-willed manmukhs have no faith; they are filled with greed and self-interest.
gurmuiK ihrdY sbdu n ByidE hir nwim n lwgw Bwau ] (637-18, soriT, mhlw 3)
They are not Gurmukh - they do not understand the Word of the Shabad in their hearts; they do not love the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
kUV kpt pwju lih jwsI mnmuK PIkw Alwau ]3] (637-18, soriT, mhlw 3)
Their masks of falsehood and hypocrisy shall fall off; the self-willed manmukhs speak with insipid words. ||3||
Bgqw ivic Awip vrqdw pRB jI BgqI hU qU jwqw ] (637-19, soriT, mhlw 3)
You are pervading through Your devotees, O Dear God; through Your devotees, You are known.
mwieAw moh sBlok hY qyrI qU eyko purKu ibDwqw ] (637-19, soriT, mhlw 3)
All the people are enticed by Maya; they are Yours, Lord - You alone are the Architect of Destiny.
haumY mwir mnsw mnih smwxI gur kY sbid pCwqw ]4] (638-1, soriT, mhlw 3)
Overcoming my egotism and quieting the desires within my mind, I have come to realize the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||4||
AicMq kMm krih pRB iqn ky ijn hir kw nwmu ipAwrw ] (638-2, soriT, mhlw 3)
God automatically does the work of those who love the Name of the Lord.
gur prswid sdw min visAw siB kwj svwrxhwrw ] (638-2, soriT, mhlw 3)
By Guru's Grace, he ever dwells in their minds, and He resolves all their affairs.
Enw kI rIs kry su ivgucY ijn hir pRBu hY rKvwrw ]5] (638-3, soriT, mhlw 3)
Whoever challenges them is destroyed; they have the Lord God as their Savior. ||5||
ibnu siqgur syvy iknY n pwieAw mnmuiK Bauik muey ibllweI ] (638-3, soriT, mhlw 3)
Without serving the True Guru, no one finds the Lord; the self-willed manmukhs die crying out in pain.
Awvih jwvih Taur n pwvih duK mih duiK smweI ] (638-4, soriT, mhlw 3)
They come and go, and find no place of rest; in pain and suffering, they perish.
gurmuiK hovY su AMimRqu pIvY shjy swic smweI ]6] (638-5, soriT, mhlw 3)
But one who becomes Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar, and is easily absorbed in the True Name. ||6||
ibnu siqgur syvy jnmu n CofY jy Anyk krm krY AiDkweI ] (638-5, soriT, mhlw 3)
Without serving the True Guru, one cannot escape reincarnation, even by performing numerous rituals.
vyd pVih qY vwd vKwxih ibnu hir piq gvweI ] (638-6, soriT, mhlw 3)
Those who read the Vedas, and argue and debate without the Lord, lose their honor.
scw siqguru swcI ijsu bwxI Bij CUtih gur srxweI ]7] (638-6, soriT, mhlw 3)
True is the True Guru, and True is the Word of His Bani; in the Guru's Sanctuary, one is saved. ||7||
ijn hir min visAw sy dir swcy dir swcY sicAwrw ] (638-7, soriT, mhlw 3)
Those whose minds are filled with the Lord are judged as true in the Court of the Lord; they are hailed as true in the True Court.
Enw dI soBw juig juig hoeI koie n mytxhwrw ] (638-8, soriT, mhlw 3)
Their praises echo throughout the ages, and no one can erase them.
nwnk iqn kY sd bilhwrY ijn hir rwiKAw auir Dwrw ]8]1] (638-8, soriT, mhlw 3)
Nanak is forever a sacrifice to those who enshrine the Lord within their hearts. ||8||1||
Best regards

JapjiSahib ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I can not read the fonts somehow. We all know SGGS, our only Guru is full of 1429 pages of breeding goodness within and hence creating inner strength. But that does not mean that it goes against the nature which Ik Ong Kaar has created. It does not say that when one is tortured to death one does not feel pain. Yes, one is ready to die for the sake of justice. The will to sacrifice one's own life is instilled in us. However physical pain of a continuous torture for days can not miraculously disappear. A Sikh has the strength within to bear it but it is still there. The grit bred within with the help of Gurbani can lessen it but can not eliminate it and no where in Gurbani it indicates that. If this were true then as I mentioned in my other post then we get into the realm of miracles which Sikhi rejects.

Lastly, please share with us what do you understand by the Shabad you have posted in your own words. In other words, please transfer this beautiful poetry into prose of your own understanding to share with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[rajneesh madhok]

Rajneesh Madhok ji,
Even if we believe,for for argument"s sake, that a man who has immersed himself in Almighty"s love will have no reflection of pain and torture,misery and sickness,should he also be oblivious of the pain and misery he sees around him?

Dear Jasbir Kalekaji,
Sorry for making arguments, I agree to your point that the person who has immersed in Almighty’s love will not be oblivious with the pain. The kind and loving word of Almighty can be described as complicated It’s a mystery
Now we come to the point in holy books of all religions one can learn many aspects of self descipline or learn how to master our own lives. With the reading of holy scriptures our dominant thoughts will certainly change If we go to find the practical value in reading the holy books instantly we will not get anything.
A farmer plants his seed, he waits and in due time he gets the crop he planted. Thus all the holy books teach us that what you sew is what you reap.
I mean to say that the person who is totally dedicated to God must be having more powerful strength to bear all the miseries, pain.
Now we came to Karma theory: I hope the answer to your question is based on Karma theory. This is certain that your deeds will come back to you in some form or another in Karma theory or Cosmic Law. But still most of us will not agree to Karma theory.
Concluding part:
SURRENDER YOURSELF IN ALMIGHTY’S FEET---There is nothing more meaningful, nothing more beautiful, nothing more peaceful, nothing more perfect that living in eternal Bliss!
So when Almighty is with us who can be against us?
Rajneesh Madhok

 

[japjisahib04]

JapjiSahib ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I can not read the fonts somehow. We all know SGGS, our only Guru is full of 1429 pages of breeding goodness within and hence creating inner strength. But that does not mean that it goes against the nature which Ik Ong Kaar has created. It does not say that when one is tortured to death one does not feel pain. Yes, one is ready to die for the sake of justice. The will to sacrifice one's own life is instilled in us. However physical pain of a continuous torture for days can not miraculously disappear. A Sikh has the strength within to bear it but it is still there. The grit bred within with the help of Gurbani can lessen it but can not eliminate it and no where in Gurbani it indicates that. If this were true then as I mentioned in my other post then we get into the realm of miracles which Sikhi rejects.

Lastly, please share with us what do you understand by the Shabad you have posted in your own words. In other words, please transfer this beautiful poetry into prose of your own understanding to share with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji

When you are in masti, you don't think of the pained thus don't get pain at all. When you have a jazba of donating blood, you don't think of pain thus don't get pain at all. Though we have example of Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Taru who was cut into pieces, I cite my own example. The other day I went for medical check up. Doctor insisted to shave my chest hair, upon my refusal he said you will feel lot of pain. I said don't worry and I didn't feel slightest of pain while removing the strong adhesive. Again Sunieh sidh pir sur nath and Gaveh jodh maha bal sura - by singing in His bliss the great warrior feel proud to sacrifice their life so what to talk of pain.
Best regards

 

[dalbirk]

Dear Mohinder Ji ,
Thanks for reminding , when I went for a check up some three years ago , I got my chest shaved because I did not know ABC of Sikhism or SRM , but indeed when I go for the same in future , I will be clear what I have to do .

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am glad you did not feel any pain but that it not the point. We can not presume things about others because of the personal experience we may have had for a short period of time. I did not feel any pain either when my defibrillator gave me the shock in the Gurdwara and I mentioned it in my essay " Miracles in Sikhi" posted in this forum.

No where do our Gurus tell us about non existent of pain in the Gurbani. Hence it is our own presumption.

Secondly about not shaving chest hair, I beg to differ with you. I will tell you why. When my device was installed, my chest was not shaved properly and the whole thing got infected. I was put back into the hospital with heavy antibiotics which raised my BP which was more dangerous for the heart. Then they decided to install it on the right side of the chest, if the last and the heaviest dose of antibiotic did not work. Fortunately it did. So they did not have to re operate me.

On Dec 4th, last year when I had a new device put in, I made sure that my chest was shaved very well by the nurses.

Let us not confuse our Sikh history where our brave Sikhs were forced to convert by getting their hair cut or die.They chose the latter.

Sikhi is not a dogmatic religion but a pragmatic way of life. It would be rather foolish and dogmatic on our part if we take things to extreme without being open minded. If shaving chest can save one's life due to medical reasons, then there is no reason for the one stop being on ther Sikhi path. That would be parochial, myopic and narrow mindedness.

Most of the Ayurvedic medicines have heavy doses of alcoholic contents in them and people in India and abroad take them without giving it a second thought. This is harmful, not shaving body parts for the sake of medical reasons.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Sikhi is not a dogmatic religion but a pragmatic way of life. It would be rather foolish and dogmatic on our part if we take things to extreme without being open minded. If shaving chest can save one's life due to medical reasons, then there is no reason for the one stop being on ther Sikhi path. That would be parochial, myopic and narrow mindedness.

Most of the Ayurvedic medicines have heavy doses of alcoholic contents in them and people in India and abroad take them without giving it a second thought. This is harmful, not shaving body parts for the sake of medical reasons.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji,

If tempering with His perfection is a pragmatic way of life, then I feel God is really imperfect who has grown hair on our chest and perhaps God didn't realize that it will hinder medical treatment. I humbly request you to kindly advise how do you interpret 'Nanak bhagta sada veegas sunieh dukh paap ka nash' which is repeated four times in Japjisahib.

Best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh Ji,

If tempering with His perfection is a pragmatic way of life, then I feel God is really imperfect who has grown hair on our chest and perhaps God didn't realize that it will hinder medical treatment. I humbly request you to kindly advise how do you interpret 'Nanak bhagta sada veegas sunieh dukh paap ka nash' which is repeated four times in Japjisahib.

Best regards

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Why do you tamper with perfection by cutting your nails?

Why do you tamper with perfection when your kara shaves your hair away?

Why do you tamper with perfection when your thighs hitting each other shave your hair?

Why do you tamper with perfection when your whiskers get into your teeth by accident and are chopped off?

Why do you tamper with perfection when your appendix has to be taken out or your teeth have to get pulled for some reason?

Why does one tamper with perfection when one has a habit of pulling his whiskers and beard?

Do you mean when Bhai Mani Singh was chopped into pieces, his bodily hair did not get chopped off?

Why do you tamper with perfection if you need a by pass surgery?

One can go on and on ceaselessly but it is futile.

Or,do you mean only hair is part of Ik Ong Kaar's perfection in our body, nothing else?

It seems from you post and I hope I am wrong, that for you Ik Ong Kaar is some kind of personified deity rather than how Guru Nanak explains Ik Ong Kaar in Mool Mantar.

Sikhi breeds common sense, knowledge, open mindedness,not dogmatic ignorance.

how do you interpret 'Nanak bhagta sada veegas sunieh dukh paap ka nash' which is repeated four times in Japjisahib

.

It is me who has requested you many times about sharing the meanings of the Shabads you post in your own words but you have refused to do that for some reason and are quick to copy and paste the literal translations.

Please share with us what the above means in your own words as requested before. It would be much better if you shared the message you receive from all 4 stanzas. One liners do not do any justice to Gurbani nor to our Gurus.It is like picking and choosing parts of Gurbani to prove our point rather than understanding the concept. You may use literal translation as a comparison but please put the stanzas of Jap in your own words. Only by this we can have a great interaction and learn from each other.

Hope to learn from you.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Tejwant singh Ji
Cool down. Let me admit you are right list can go on e.g. to remove dead skin from heels by pedicure is tempering with his perfection, to remove black head from face or facial cleansing is tempering with His perfection. Even removing dead hairs by combing is tempering with His perfection and so removing dead nails by manicure is tempering with His perfection and even permitting extra fat on our body or in between our thigh is also tempering with His perfection. In this case I suppose cremating dead body is also tempering with His perfection.
With regards to your assertion by stating, ‘It seems from your post and I hope I am wrong, that for you Ik Ong Kaar is some kind of personified deity rather than how Guru Nanak explains Ik Ong Kaar in Mool Mantar. Though Guru Nanak has addressed ek onakar in Mool Mantar as formless but same Guru Nanak also in his imaganization has sketeched image of God by stating, ‘qyry bMky loiex dMq rIswlw ] sohxy nk ijn lµmVy vwlw ] (567-9, vfhMsu, mhlw 1)and I hope Guru Nanak was not praising some kind of personified deity in this case.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

In this case I suppose cremating dead body is also tempering with His perfection.

You mean all our Gurus who got cremated were tempering with perfection of Ik Ong Kaar?

Though Guru Nanak has addressed ek onakar in Mool Mantar as formless but same Guru Nanak also in his imaganization made image of God by stating, ‘qyry bMky loiex dMq rIswlw ] sohxy nk ijn lµmVy vwlw ] (567-9, vfhMsu, mhlw 1)and I hope Guru Nanak was not praising some kind of personified deity in this case.

First of all I can not read the fonts. Secondly as mentioned in my other post that it is disrespectful to our Gurus to quote one liners just trying to prove our point rather than trying to understand the whole message. It does not do Gurbani any justice, to the contrary.

So, for me to understand what you are trying to say, you have to explain in your own words what you understand by the Shabad. Please explain the whole Shabad in your own words and do you mean that this Shabad contradicts Mool mantar and what Ik Ong Kaar is described as in the blueprint of Sikhi?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Please forgive my rude interruption. But, yesterday I could not read the fonts, and fixed them. Today Mohinder ji has quoted some gurbani and the fonts are indeed different from the day before, but I can read them as they are. Without any problem.

Here is the problem with fonts. Unless someone has copied bani from a site using Unicode fonts, which are universally readable on all platforms and in all browsers, there is bound to be a problem somewhere.

The post reader has to have the same fonts installed on his/her computer as the writer has installed on his/her computer. On top of that, the forum software has to support the fonts that the writer of the post is using. If one or the other is not true, then the reader cannot read what has been posted.

I know that Mohinder did download fonts supported by SPN last week sometime. So the only way I can be helpful is for Mohinder to tell me what is the source of the Gurbani that he just posted with the red Gurmukhi followed by English in blue. The shabad seems to be posted using the AmolLipi font, which is supported by SPN. I just checked. Mohinder please let me know your source so I can fix the shabad.

Tejant please let me know if you can read each line below. If not, which one/s are unreadable. That will help me on your end.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Unicode
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ WebAkharThick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ GurbaniWeb Thick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Gurbani Lipi
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ AmolLipi

To me they all look the same. But they are all different fonts.

 

[japjisahib04]

Please forgive my rude interruption. But, yesterday I could not read the fonts, and fixed them. Today Mohinder ji has quoted some gurbani and the fonts are indeed different from the day before, but I can read them as they are. Without any problem.

Here is the problem with fonts. Unless someone has copied bani from a site using Unicode fonts, which are universally readable on all platforms and in all browsers, there is bound to be a problem somewhere.

The post reader has to have the same fonts installed on his/her computer as the writer has installed on his/her computer. On top of that, the forum software has to support the fonts that the writer of the post is using. If one or the other is not true, then the reader cannot read what has been posted.

I know that Mohinder did download fonts supported by SPN last week sometime. So the only way I can be helpful is for Mohinder to tell me what is the source of the Gurbani that he just posted with the red Gurmukhi followed by English in blue. The shabad seems to be posted using the AmolLipi font, which is supported by SPN. I just checked. Mohinder please let me know your source so I can fix the shabad.

Tejant please let me know if you can read each line below. If not, which one/s are unreadable. That will help me on your end.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Unicode
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ WebAkharThick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ GurbaniWeb Thick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Gurbani Lipi
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ AmolLipi

To me they all look the same. But they are all different fonts.

Narayajot Kaur Ji

I am not facing any problem with the fonts and clearly read them. Before I was using gurbaniakhar used by Sant Singh Khalsa but ever since S. Tejwant Singh complained about fonts, I started using anmol lipi as supplied by you. I suggest S. Tejwant Singh to download gurbani akhar heavy also on his PC, then there will be no problem. I have download Sant singh khalsa interpretation which shows in red.

Further S. Tejwant Singh Ji I am not able to find any sabd in gurbani which tells me that it is disrespect to our guru or gurbani to use one complete stanza especially when there is no rahao in that complete sabd. According to gurbani kinka ek jees jee basavai ta ki mahima gani na avvaih. In addition, on the contrary guru sahib when found additional revelation wrote slok varan teh vadheek. I think veechar on this topic is taking some personal level and I am no match to S.Tejwant Singh, so I must quit.
Best regards

 

[spnadmin]

Narayajot Kaur Ji

I am not facing any problem with the fonts and clearly read them. Before I was using gurbaniakhar used by Sant Singh Khalsa but ever since S. Tejwant Singh complained about fonts, I started using anmol lipi as supplied by you. I suggest S. Tejwant Singh to download gurbani akhar heavy also on his PC, then there will be no problem. I have download Sant singh khalsa interpretation which shows in red.

Thank you japjisahib04 ji - That gives me some start-up clues.

 

[Aulakh]

Dera Jasbirkaleka ji Gur Fateh
Everything that comes of the Perfect can never be imperfect. God created the world along with the unfailing law that each and every action will be followed by a reaction,"Jeha bije so lune karma sandra khet".It is our conditioning which makes us see the misery in the "Hukam"(Hukme ander sab ko )
Humbly
Gian singh Aulakh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Please forgive my rude interruption. But, yesterday I could not read the fonts, and fixed them. Today Mohinder ji has quoted some gurbani and the fonts are indeed different from the day before, but I can read them as they are. Without any problem.

Here is the problem with fonts. Unless someone has copied bani from a site using Unicode fonts, which are universally readable on all platforms and in all browsers, there is bound to be a problem somewhere.

The post reader has to have the same fonts installed on his/her computer as the writer has installed on his/her computer. On top of that, the forum software has to support the fonts that the writer of the post is using. If one or the other is not true, then the reader cannot read what has been posted.

I know that Mohinder did download fonts supported by SPN last week sometime. So the only way I can be helpful is for Mohinder to tell me what is the source of the Gurbani that he just posted with the red Gurmukhi followed by English in blue. The shabad seems to be posted using the AmolLipi font, which is supported by SPN. I just checked. Mohinder please let me know your source so I can fix the shabad.

Tejant please let me know if you can read each line below. If not, which one/s are unreadable. That will help me on your end.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Unicode
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ WebAkharThick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ GurbaniWeb Thick
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ Gurbani Lipi
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ AmolLipi

To me they all look the same. But they are all different fonts.

Narayanjot Kaur ji,

Guru Fateh.

I can read all the fonts you have in your post but I still can not read Mohinder Singh ji's font. I have all possible Punjabi fonts on my lap top. It seems that perhaps some are missing.

Regards

Tejwant