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Atheism Did God Create An Imperfect World?

japjisahib04

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Japjisahib04 ji Sat Sri Akal.
Where is the fun when millions die in earth-quacks or epidemics?
When an infant, who is not even aware of the world around him, dies of cancer or some other disease, where is the justice?
Do we ever torment or torture our children just to make them remember that we are their parents?
Sorry,I fail to find any logic in your answer.:(
Let me present it in different way. Who are these people sufferings? We or God. Do the creation have its own entity and or is separate from creator. No - it is 'sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahi koi' so if anyone is sufferings it is the God Himself. Gurbani tells us 'kar kar vaikhai keeta appna' - He has created this creations and than observing it. And then further states, 'dueI kudrat saajjeiy kar assan deetha chao' When even guru nanak after observing evils and worse things says, 'Nanak neech kaihai veechar varia na java ek var jo tudh bhavai sai bhali kar - since this is your game and it please you oh perfect God who am I to question you.
When we say WHY did He created pains, misery, sufferings, then we are assumimg we are separate from God and are independent entity and can fight.
 

BhagatSingh

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Jasbir Kaleka ji,
Your questions remind me of questions that Shaheed Bhagat Singh, quite intelligently, raised in his "Why am I an atheist?" essay. I added colour to make it easier to read on the computer.
.....

As for the negative side. we ask a few questions from the 'believers'.
If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.
Pray, don't say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves. Please don't say that it is his enjoyment. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.
One Changezkhan sacrificed a few thousand lives to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Then how are you going to justify your almighty, eternal Nero, who has been, and is still causing numberless tragedies every day, every hour and every minute? How do you think to support his misdoings which surpass those of Changez every single moment? I say why did he create this world � a veritable hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest? Why did the Almighty create man when he had the power not to do it? What is the justification for all this ? Do you say to award the innocent sufferers hereafter and to punish the wrong-doers as well? Well, well: How far shall you justify a man who may dare to inflict wounds upon your body to apply a very soft and soothing liniment upon it afterwards? How far the supporters and organizers of the Gladiator Institution were justified in throwing men before the half starved furious lions to be cared for and well looked after if they could survive and could manage to escape death by the wild beasts? That is why I ask, 'Why did the conscious supreme being created this world and man in it? To seek pleasure? Where then is the difference between him and Nero'?
You Mohammadens and Christians : Hindu Philosophy shall still linger on to offer another argument. I ask you what is your answer to the above-mentioned question? You don't believe in previous birth. Like Hindus you cannot advance the argument of previous misdoings of the apparently quite innocent sufferers? I ask you why did the omnipotent labor for six days to create the world through word and each day to say that all was well. Call him today. Show him the past history. Make him study the present situation. Let us see if he dares to say, "All is well".
From the dungeons of prisons, from the stores of starvation consuming millions upon millions of human beings in slums and huts, from the exploited laborers, patiently or say apathetically watching the procedure of their blood being sucked by the Capitalist vampires, and the wastage of human energy that will make a man with the least common sense shiver with horror, and from the preference of throwing the surplus of production in oceans rather than to distribute amongst the needy producers�to the palaces of kings built upon the foundation laid with human bones.... let him see all this and let him say "All is well".
Why and wherefore? That is my question. You are silent.
All right then, I proceed. Well, you Hindus, you say all the present sufferers belong to the class of sinners of the previous births. Good. You say the present oppressors were saintly people in their previous births, hence they enjoy power. Let me admit that your ancestors were very shrewd people, they tried to find out theories strong enough to hammer down all the efforts of reason and disbelief. But let us analyze how far this argument can really stand.
From the point of view of the most famous jurists punishment can be justified only from three or four ends to meet which it is inflicted upon the wrongdoer. They are retributive, reformative and deterrent. The retributive theory is now being condemned by all the advanced thinkers. Deterrent theory is also following the same fate. Reformative theory is the only one which is essential, and indispensable for human progress. It aims at returning the offender as a most competent and a peace-loving citizen to the society. But what is the nature of punishment inflicted by God upon men even if we suppose them to be offenders. You say he sends them to be born as a cow, a cat, a tree, a herb or a best. You enumerate these punishments to be 84 lakhs. I ask you what is its reformative effect upon man? How many men have met you who say that they were born as a donkey in previous birth for having committed any sin? None. Don't quote your Puranas. I have no scope to touch your mythologies. Moreover do you know that the greatest sin in this world is to be poor. Poverty is a sin, it is a punishment.
I ask you how far would you appreciate a criminologist, a jurist or a legislator who proposes such measures of punishment which shall inevitably force man to commit more offences? Had not your God thought of this or he also had to learn these things by experience, but at the cost of untold sufferings to be borne by humanity? What do you think shall be the fate of a man who has been born in a poor and illiterate family of say a chamar or a sweeper. He is poor, hence he cannot study. He is hated and shunned by his fellow human beings who think themselves to be his superiors having been born in say a higher caste. His ignorance, his poverty and the treatment meted out to him shall harden his heart towards society. Suppose he commits a sin, who shall bear the consequences? God, he or the learned ones of, the society? What about the punishment of those people who were deliberately kept ignorant by the haughty and egotist Brahmans and who had to pay the penalty by bearing the stream of being led (not lead) in their ears for having heard a few sentences of your Sacred Books of learning-the Vedas? If they committed any offence-who was to be responsible for them and who was to bear the brunt? My dear friends: These theories are the inventions of the privileged ones: They justify their usurped power, riches and superiority by the help of these theories. Yes: It was perhaps Upton Sinclair, that wrote at some place, that just make a man a believer in immortality and then rob him of all his riches, and possessions. He shall help you even in that ungrudgingly. The coalition amongst the religious preachers and possessors of power brought forth jails, gallows, knouts and these theories.
I ask why your omnipotent God, does not stop every man when he is committing any sin or offence? He can do it quite easily. Why did he not kill war lords or kill the fury of war in them and thus avoid the catastrophe hurled down on the head of humanity by the Great War? Why does he not just produce a certain sentiment in the mind of the British people to liberate India? Why does he not infuse the altruistic enthusiasm in the hearts of all capitalists to forgo their rights of personal possessions of means of production and thus redeem the whole laboring community � nay the whole human society from the bondage of Capitalism. You want to reason out the practicability of socialist theory, I leave it for your almighty to enforce it.
People recognize the merits of socialism in as much as the general welfare is concerned. They oppose it under the pretext of its being impracticable. Let the Almighty step in and arrange everything in an orderly fashion. Now don't try to advance round about arguments, they are out of order. Let me tell you, British rule is here not because God wills it but because they possess power and we do not dare to oppose them. Not that it is with the help of God that they are keeping us under their subjection but it is with the help of guns and rifles, bomb and bullets, police and millitia and our apathy that they are successfully committing the most deplorable sin against society- the outrageous exploitation of one nation by another. Where is God ? What is he doing? Is he enjoying all I these woes of human race ? A Nero; A Changez : Down with him.
Do you ask me how I explain the origin of this world and origin of man? Alright I tell you. Charles Darwin has tried to throw some light on the subject. Study him. Read Soham Swami's "Commonsense". It shall answer your question to some extent. This is a phenomenon of nature. The accidental mixture of different substances in the shape of nebulae produced this earth. When? Consult history. The same process produced animals and in the long run man. Read Darwin's 'Origin of Species'. And all the later progress is due to man's constant conflict with nature and his efforts to override it. This is the briefest possible explanation of this phenomenon.
Your other argument may be just to ask why a child is born blind or lame if not due to his deeds committed in the previous birth? This problem has been explained away by biologists as a more biological phenomenon. According to them the whole burden rests upon the shoulders of the parents who may be conscious or ignorant of their own deeds led to mutilation of the child previous to its birth.
.....
Why I Am An Atheist by Bhagat Singh
 

spnadmin

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Bhagat Singh ji

Forgive me however I do not see anything particularly "intelligent" in Shaheed Bhagat Singh's argument. Bottom line: His plea may be a good argument against believing in God. It is not a good argument against the existence of God. Belief and proof of existence are not the same thing.

Shaheed Bhagat Singh's argument is basically:

If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.

He is using one of the many arguments that atheists use, Argument from Evil, against the idea that there is a God. In so many words, the existence of Evil is incompatible with the existence of God. It goes like this (courtesy of the 3rd Century BCE Greek philosopher Epicurus).

Either God

  • wants to abolish evil and cannot,
  • or he can but does not want to,
  • or he cannot and does not want to,
  • or lastly he can and wants to.

If he wants to remove evil, and cannot,
he is not omnipotent;

If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;

If he neither can nor wants to,
he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent;

But if God can abolish evil and wants to,
how does evil exist?

So "argument from evil" calls in to question God's omnipotence, or God's benevolence, or both. Jasbirkaleka ji has asked a similar question: if there is pain and suffering then how can there be a God, what kind of God would permit this? Jasbirkaleka ji has raised the question as a honest question. Shaheed Bhagat Singh ji on the other hand had already decided that capitalism was the greatest evil, and the cause of suffering worse than any suffering wreaked by Changez Khan or any other tyrant.

In order for this argument to work God has to be defined very narrowly and very specifically. You can see from Shaheed's statement above that he has done exactly that. He has restricted his description of the divine very narrowly, and in terms of Hindu and Christian beliefs that he claims justify evil in the name of some divine principle. For his argument to hold, one has to first agree to his definition of terms. If one does not agree or if one has other understandings of "God" or "Divine" -- then his argument for atheism fails.

Austin Cline, the atheism expert on About.com, does a pretty good job of explaining the weaknesses of the Argument from Evil. (He on occasion done a pretty bad job of explaining concepts from religions other than atheism.) For more information from Mr. Cline, I post his link on the subject. Having discussed Evil with trained philosophers in my recent and distant past, I am comfortable posting the link. It measures up to some respectable philosophical argument. All the other arguments for atheism are there too.

Evil Conflicts with the Existence of God: God Doesn't Care or God Doesn't Exist - How Can Perfect Gods Exist With So Much Evil, Suffering in the World

Do permit me to point out that both Taranjeet ji and Mohinder ji have given at least 2 of the arguments that are used to refute the Argument from Evil. Spot on!
 

spnadmin

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Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


That would certainly be an example of a narrowly defined concept of God. But it is not the only concept of God. In this particular view of God, the Divine is in the habit of making pronouncements in the first person singular "I" thereby creating a sense of an almost human personality. Probably one of the concepts of the Divine that Shaheed Bhagat Singh was referring to.

(Added later)

In this view of God we have the following attitude toward removing evil:
If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;


From my observations above -- and this is on a completely different topic -- I have never subscribed to the notion that all religions worship the same God.
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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From my observations above -- and this is on a completely different topic -- I have never subscribed to the notion that all religions worship the same God.

I take that particular argument to mean that - since there is only one God - we all worship the same one, whether we know it or not and however different our notions of the Supreme Being. Irene, however, has very firmly told me, "Your God doesn't hate evil. He is not right-eous!! WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD!!!" And who am I to argue with the good Irene?

But, as you say, that's off-topic.

khandaa
 
Last edited:

Tejwant Singh

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As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy. One has to fight one's battle oneself. God is there to help every one including those who are in misery. May be in their misery lies their good. Who Knows.?

Taranjeet ji,

Guru fateh.

1.Would you be kind enough to list the things in the Divine Order?

2.Are all kinds of diseases and sicknesses included in this?

3.How can good lie in someone's misery? Can you please give some examples?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
 

spnadmin

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I take that particular argument to mean that - since there is only one God - we all worship the same one, whether we know it or not and however different our notions of the Supreme Being. Irene, however, has very firmly told me, "Your God doesn't hate evil. He is not right-eous!! WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD!!!" And who am I to argue with the good Irene?

But, as you say, that's off-topic.

khandaa

I agree with Irene for once. She and I don't worship the same god.
 

japjisahib04

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Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Similary in Gita, Krishna in chapter four item 6 says, ' Though I am eternal, imperishable, and the Lord of all beings; yet I (voluntarily) manifest by controlling My own material nature using My Yoga-Maya., the mystic power of Brahman. (See also 10.14).

07. Whenever there is a decline of Dharma and the rise of Adharma, O Arjuna, then I manifest (or incarnate) Myself.

08. I incarnate in every age for protecting the good, for punishing or
transforming the wicked, and for the establishment of Dharma

Best regards
 
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Taranjeet ji,

Guru fateh.

1.Would you be kind enough to list the things in the Divine Order?

2.Are all kinds of diseases and sicknesses included in this?

3.How can good lie in someone's misery? Can you please give some examples?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
Respected Tejwant ji

The expression or words ‘Divine order’ have been used in context of Sikhism and would mean ‘Hukum.’

Answer1.

The entire creation is the manifestation of His Hukum [‘shabda’ or ‘naam’]. Earlier writers have addressed this to be sabad-Guru as differentiated from the Guru Granth sahib ji which also we call as ‘shabad-Guru’. Hukum or Will have been used interchangeably by the translators.

Hukum [sabda] existed before the coming of our Gurus or before sikh religion came into being. It is through hukum that the entire creation came into being. The body of the mortal and its journey through the womb, birth and death, cycle of re-incarnations and the transmigration of soul is governed by Hukum. Every one is within the Hukum. Our status in this material world whether Low or high, is also decided as per Hukum. To what extent we shall rise in our spiritual journey and material world is also as per Hukum. Our liberation and bondage or wanderings i.e. reincarnation is as per Hukum. Above all the directory force to mind, where the inter-play of the thoughts related to Siva and Sakti takes place, is also governed by Hukum. In nutshell, right from the inception of soul and its journey to this world through the womb till it meets its final destination is as per Hukum. This is the small list that I can think of. You may kindly advise.

Answer.2

Coming to the specifics it can be stated that God is the giver of pain and pleasure and working with the basic premise that everything that comes from Him has to be good for the mortal, the pain and pleasure are to be treated at par or same.

Pain is the outcome of excessive indulgence in pleasures derived from senses when the mind remains constantly engaged in Maya or attachment to the worldly professions through the senses and the five evils prevail. Sickness is also to be treated in the category of pain. This can be made tolerable by treating this as the gift of God. Whatever the Lord orders has to be treated as gift from Him. It is the only way to accept Hukum.

Going back to the discussion of the causes of the pain. The pain is the direct outcome of making our ‘self ‘deprived of His remembrance. Physical pleasures are only transitory. The tendency to seek physical pleasures is distraction for the mind. Guru Sahibs have cautioned to not to indulge in physical pleasures as this is not the purpose of life:
ਬਾਰੂ ਭੀਤਿ ਬਨਾਈ ਰਚਿ ਪਚਿ ਰਹਤ ਨਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
baaroo bheeth banaaee rach pach rehath nehee dhin chaar ||
Like a wall of sand, built up and plastered with great care, which does not last even a few days,
ਤੈਸੇ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸੁਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਗਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
thaisae hee eih sukh maaeiaa kae ourajhiou kehaa gavaar ||1||
just so are the pleasures of Maya. Why are you entangled in them, you ignorant fool? ||1||

The soul has also to be fed by making it in contact with the Lord through various methods. This pleasure is not temporary. If practiced for a long period of time one can attain the state of bliss. Thus following this route one becomes contended and mind tends to become stable. Once the fickle mindedness is gone one can practice the formula of treating pain and pleasure alike and remain in self. Mind’s wandering can also be arrested. Thus the superiority of the spiritual life vis a vis materialistic way of life, where the soul gets its feed through simran, meditation or practicing Bani, has been accepted as the basic principle of life in Sikhism.

I sum up this with a very beautiful shabad of Ninth Nanak

Forgive me but I have edited with a font adjustment

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
sorath mehalaa 9 ||
Sorat'h, Ninth Mehl:

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
jo nar dhukh mai dhukh nehee maanai ||
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,


ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sukh sanaehu ar bhai nehee jaa kai kanchan maattee maanai ||1|| rehaao ||
who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||


ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
neh nindhiaa neh ousathath jaa kai lobh mohu abhimaanaa ||
Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;


ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
harakh sog thae rehai niaaro naahi maan apamaanaa ||1||
who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||


ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
aasaa manasaa sagal thiaagai jag thae rehai niraasaa ||
who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;


ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
kaam krodhh jih parasai naahan thih ghatt breham nivaasaa ||2||
who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, God dwells. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
gur kirapaa jih nar ko keenee thih eih jugath pashhaanee ||
That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
naanak leen bhaeiou gobindh sio jio paanee sang paanee ||3||11||
O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||
(Ang 633)​

Answer.3

After answering the first two questions there remains no need for answering the third question as the answer is contained in the second answer.

However, for the sake of completeness I shall touch upon the subject as per my little understanding of the things. The aim of life or the objective of life has been summed up beautifully in the single line:

Bhai Prapat Manukh Dehoria
Gobind Milan Ki eh Teri baria


The more I grow the more I feel that it is so.
For this we have to remember the Almighty and practice Naam/keeratn in sangat etc.

If one falls sick and is in pain or is in misery one tends to remember God which is generally forgotten when we are happy. Hence sickness is a blessing in disguise to remind us that there is someone who has given us all that He has given us and we should remember Him and also fulfill the purpose of coming on the earth that has been stated above. Thus Dukh becomes Daru for the Rog that has evolved on account of ‘sukh’.

Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya.

There is also another line that I remember:

Har Bisrat sda Khuari.

There is another line that speaks almost the same:

ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
[Forgetting the Beloved, even for a moment, the mind is afflicted with terrible diseases.]

Thus the pain makes one to return back to the Path and the soul is put back on track to be in touch with the Almighty, the Super-consciousness.


Regards,

I hope Gurmukhi fonts are Ok.
E& OE
 

Astroboy

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Lokas Or Planes: The Seven Planes

By Sri Swami Sivananda




There are seven planes. They are Bhuloka (earth plane), Bhuvarloka (Antariksha or the astral plane), Svargaloka (heaven or the mental plane), Maharloka, Janaloka, Tapoloka and Satyaloka (Brahmaloka or the world of Brahma, the Creator). Tapasvins dwell in Tapoloka. If you keep different kinds of lights in a room such as kerosene , mustard oil light, petromax, candle light, electric light; the various lights interpenetrate in the room. Even so, the Lokas interpenetrate. Each plane has its own matter of an appropriate degree of destiny, which interpenetrates the matter of the plane next below it.
The astral plane, or Bhuvarloka, interpenetrates the earth plane and extends for some distance beyond it. The mental plane interpenetrates the astral but also extends further into space than does the latter. The vibrations of the astral world are more rapid or quicker than those of the physical plane. The vibrations of the mental plane are more rapid or quicker than those of the astral plane. The vibrations of the Satyaloka are more rapid or quicker than those of the mental plane. In each plane the soul develops a new and higher sense of power.
When you pass from one plane to another you do not move in space. You simply change your consciousness. You change your focus of consciousness. You can have different sorts of vision through the or microscope by using lenses of different degrees of potency or power. You have got different vehicles within yourself which correspond to different planes and which can function in different planes.
In the dreaming state your astral body functions. In the deep sleep state your causal body functions. Even so, in the astral plane your astral body operates, in the mental plane your mental body operates, in the Brahmaloka your causal body functions. Each plane is formed by matter of different degrees of density. In the mental plane the matter is subtler than in the astral plane. In the causal plane the matter is subtler than the matter of mental plane. The planes occupy the same position in space. Heaven is here. Brahmaloka is here. Have a different vehicle or body and a different subtler eye. You can function in any plane.
In the physical plane one gets knowledge of objects through the five Jnana-Indriyas or organs of knowledge, viz., ear, skin, eye, tongue, nose. In the mental plane or heaven he does not hear, see and feel by separate and finite organs. He gets a Divya Chakshus or divine eye, an extraordinary new power or faculty. He can hear, see, feel and know everything of an object instantaneously, through this new mental eye. He gets an accurate and perfect knowledge of all objects. He is not deceived or misled by any external appearance. There is no misunderstanding.
In the mind all the powers of all the senses are blended. Mind is a mixture or compound of all the organs. It can hear, see, taste, smell and feel.
He can get everything by mere Sankalpa or willing. If he thinks of a celestial , it is there before him at once. If he thinks of a place, he is there immediately. If he thinks of a person, he is before him at once. There is no distance for him. There is no feeling of separation for him. He reads the thoughts of others. Hence, questions and answers are not necessary in the mental plane. The interchange of ideas is very quick.
He can know the past and the future also. He is endowed with clairvoyance and clairaudience. He can simultaneously manifest himself in various forms.
Heaven is a plane of enjoyment only. It is a place to reap the of one�s good Karmas done in the earth-plane. One cannot do fresh Karmas there. He cannot attain Moksha or the final emancipation from there. He will have to come down to this earth again for trying for his salvation.
Indra, Varuna, Agni, etc., are the original Devatas or gods of heaven. There are Karma-Devas also here. These are men who have raised themselves to the status of Devas through meritorious actions done in the earth-plane. A Deva has a luminous fire body. Fire preponderates. The Devas exhibit different degrees of brilliance in accordance with different degrees of advancement.
There is neither day nor night for a Deva, or an inhabitant of the mental plane, or heaven. He is neither sleeping nor waking. When he enters heaven he experiences intense happiness. This is his waking state. He sinks into a state of unconsciousness when the term of life in heaven terminates.
Brahmaloka is the world of Brahma or Hiranyagarbha. This is also known by the name Satyaloka. Those who go by the path of Devayana reach this plane. Those who perform meritorious actions without expectation of fruits and who lead the life of purity and righteousness and those who worship Hiranyagarbha and all realised Bhaktas will go to this realm.
They attain Krama-Mukti or emancipation. They enjoy all the Divine Aisvaryas of the Lord and in the end of the cycle merge themselves in Para Brahman along with Brahma, the Creator.
Brahmaloka becomes Vaikuntha or appears as Vaikuntha for a devotee of Lord Hari. It becomes Kailasa or Sivaloka or appears as Sivaloka for a devotee of Lord Siva. It is the attitude that works.

* * *
Lokas Or Planes: The Seven Planes
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant ji,
Guru Fateh,
Thanks for sparing some moments from your precious time to communicate with me, in-spite of a somewhat provocative post.And,like a true Sikh of the Gurus, I truly appreciate your full faith in Wahe-Guru and His Hukum.:happysingh:

Jasbir ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. This forum in my opinion is like a Spiritual well where we all gather to quench out thirst, no matter what our belief or understanding of "God" is. Only by interacting in an honest and open manner we can understand our inner selves better.

So, interacting with people like you in this forum is more about my own selfish reasons.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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Respected Tejwant ji

The expression or words ‘Divine order’ have been used in context of Sikhism and would mean ‘Hukum.’


Answer1.

The entire creation is the manifestation of His Hukum [‘shabda’ or ‘naam’]. Earlier writers have addressed this to be sabad-Guru as differentiated from the Guru Granth sahib ji which also we call as ‘shabad-Guru’. Hukum or Will have been used interchangeably by the translators.

Hukum [sabda] existed before the coming of our Gurus or before sikh religion came into being. It is through hukum that the entire creation came into being. The body of the mortal and its journey through the womb, birth and death, cycle of re-incarnations and the transmigration of soul is governed by Hukum. Every one is within the Hukum. Our status in this material world whether Low or high, is also decided as per Hukum. To what extent we shall rise in our spiritual journey and material world is also as per Hukum. Our liberation and bondage or wanderings i.e. reincarnation is as per Hukum. Above all the directory force to mind, where the inter-play of the thoughts related to Siva and Sakti takes place, is also governed by Hukum. In nutshell, right from the inception of soul and its journey to this world through the womb till it meets its final destination is as per Hukum. This is the small list that I can think of. You may kindly advise.

Answer.2

Coming to the specifics it can be stated that God is the giver of pain and pleasure and working with the basic premise that everything that comes from Him has to be good for the mortal, the pain and pleasure are to be treated at par or same.

Pain is the outcome of excessive indulgence in pleasures derived from senses when the mind remains constantly engaged in Maya or attachment to the worldly professions through the senses and the five evils prevail. Sickness is also to be treated in the category of pain. This can be made tolerable by treating this as the gift of God. Whatever the Lord orders has to be treated as gift from Him. It is the only way to accept Hukum.

Going back to the discussion of the causes of the pain. The pain is the direct outcome of making our ‘self ‘deprived of His remembrance. Physical pleasures are only transitory. The tendency to seek physical pleasures is distraction for the mind. Guru Sahibs have cautioned to not to indulge in physical pleasures as this is not the purpose of life:
ਬਾਰੂ ਭੀਤਿ ਬਨਾਈ ਰਚਿ ਪਚਿ ਰਹਤ ਨਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
baaroo bheeth banaaee rach pach rehath nehee dhin chaar ||
Like a wall of sand, built up and plastered with great care, which does not last even a few days,
ਤੈਸੇ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸੁਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਗਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
thaisae hee eih sukh maaeiaa kae ourajhiou kehaa gavaar ||1||
just so are the pleasures of Maya. Why are you entangled in them, you ignorant fool? ||1||

The soul has also to be fed by making it in contact with the Lord through various methods. This pleasure is not temporary. If practiced for a long period of time one can attain the state of bliss. Thus following this route one becomes contended and mind tends to become stable. Once the fickle mindedness is gone one can practice the formula of treating pain and pleasure alike and remain in self. Mind’s wandering can also be arrested. Thus the superiority of the spiritual life vis a vis materialistic way of life, where the soul gets its feed through simran, meditation or practicing Bani, has been accepted as the basic principle of life in Sikhism.

I sum up this with a very beautiful shabad of Ninth Nanak

Forgive me but I have edited with a font adjustment

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
sorath mehalaa 9 ||
Sorat'h, Ninth Mehl:

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
jo nar dhukh mai dhukh nehee maanai ||
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,


ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sukh sanaehu ar bhai nehee jaa kai kanchan maattee maanai ||1|| rehaao ||
who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||


ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
neh nindhiaa neh ousathath jaa kai lobh mohu abhimaanaa ||
Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;


ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
harakh sog thae rehai niaaro naahi maan apamaanaa ||1||
who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||


ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
aasaa manasaa sagal thiaagai jag thae rehai niraasaa ||
who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;


ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
kaam krodhh jih parasai naahan thih ghatt breham nivaasaa ||2||
who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, God dwells. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
gur kirapaa jih nar ko keenee thih eih jugath pashhaanee ||
That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
naanak leen bhaeiou gobindh sio jio paanee sang paanee ||3||11||
O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||
(Ang 633)​

Answer.3

After answering the first two questions there remains no need for answering the third question as the answer is contained in the second answer.

However, for the sake of completeness I shall touch upon the subject as per my little understanding of the things. The aim of life or the objective of life has been summed up beautifully in the single line:

Bhai Prapat Manukh Dehoria
Gobind Milan Ki eh Teri baria


The more I grow the more I feel that it is so.
For this we have to remember the Almighty and practice Naam/keeratn in sangat etc.

If one falls sick and is in pain or is in misery one tends to remember God which is generally forgotten when we are happy. Hence sickness is a blessing in disguise to remind us that there is someone who has given us all that He has given us and we should remember Him and also fulfill the purpose of coming on the earth that has been stated above. Thus Dukh becomes Daru for the Rog that has evolved on account of ‘sukh’.

Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya.

There is also another line that I remember:

Har Bisrat sda Khuari.

There is another line that speaks almost the same:

ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
[Forgetting the Beloved, even for a moment, the mind is afflicted with terrible diseases.]

Thus the pain makes one to return back to the Path and the soul is put back on track to be in touch with the Almighty, the Super-consciousness.


Regards,

I hope Gurmukhi fonts are Ok.
E& OE

Taranjeet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the responses.

I want to apologise from the off set that I quite did not understand what you mean in them. It is my own inability.

I am not very good at understanding abstract things. For me they are "utopically intangible" if I may use the term especially when things are required in a direct and clear manner, meaning that understanding of Gurbani in simple terms should take precedent so we can use it in our daily lives. This can only happen once it is put into prose in the simplest of forms so anyone can grasp the message and make it his/her own part.

My questions were based on your following statement:

As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy. One has to fight one's battle oneself. God is there to help every one including those who are in misery. May be in their misery lies their good. Who Knows.?
Allow me to elaborate what I was trying to ask. As Divine Order is the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar, then there can not be any intervention much less acceptance.

When you use the term" As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy", it gives the inference as if someone has tried to intervene in the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar.

Is that so? If that is the reason, can you share with us who and how is it possible to intervene in the Hukam?

Now, let's try to see the other side of the coin a bit.

We now know that the Dinosaurs and many species were destroyed by the asteroid, which we can call Hukam.

Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

Today, if the same thing takes place, we will come to know many many years in advance and we will find the way to destroy the asteroid before it destroys us.

Is this intervening in the Hukam in your opinion?

If we do not do anything knowingly and are very aware that this will destroy us, can we consider doing nothing to avoid this a Hukam as well?

The same can be said for the diseases, miseries and other calamities that can be foreseen.

Secondly,you have also posted many verses from SGGS, our only Guru, to prove/express/elaborate your points in responses to my questions.

I would like to request one thing so this interesting interaction can be a wonderful learning experience for all of us who visit and contribute to this forum.

Please elaborate one Shabad at a time in your own words ( even if you copy and paste the literal translation from the net) and share with us how this message affects you as a person and is related to your response, especially keeping the RAHAO- the central idea in mind.

You may do one Shabad for each post as for a Sikh learning is a life long experience. This will allow others to pitch in with their own understanding of the same.

This will solve the problem of being from the abstract to something concrete that one can use as tools in one's own life.

What do you think?

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Now, let's try to see the other side of the coin a bit.

We now know that the Dinosaurs and many species were destroyed by the asteroid, which we can call it Hukam.

Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

Today, if the same thing takes place, we will come to know many many years in advance and we will find the way to destroy the asteroid before it destroys us.

Is this intervening in the Hukam in your opinion?

If we do not do anything knowingly and are very aware that this will destroy us, can we consider doing nothing to avoid this a Hukam as well?

The same can be said for the diseases, miseries and other calamities that can be foreseen.

Baba Fareed ji says,

ਬੁਢਾ ਹੋਆ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦੁ ਕੰਬਣਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਹ
बुढा होआ सेख फरीदु क्मबणि लगी देह ॥
Budẖā ho▫ā Sekẖ Farīḏ kambaṇ lagī ḏeh.
Shaykh Fareed has grown old, and his body has begun to tremble.

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਜੀਵਣਾ ਭੀ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਖੇਹ ॥੪੧॥
जे सउ वर्हिआ जीवणा भी तनु होसी खेह ॥४१॥
Je sa▫o varėh▫ā jīvṇā bẖī ṯan hosī kẖeh. ||41||
Even if he could live for hundreds of years, his body will eventually turn to dust. ||41||
 
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Taranjeet Singh ji,

My questions were based on your following statement:

When you use the term" As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy", it gives the inference as if someone has tried to intervene in the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Respected Tejwant singh ji,

I am grateful to you for such a lovely post that one rarely gets to see.You have very lucidly explained as to how the things should be presented.I have noted it for compliance.

I again thank you for advising me that instead Full shabad should be posted along with the meaning. It will be complied with.

Coming back to the statement, it will not out of place to mention as to why the statement was made.In his post/ thread Jasbeer ji had stated that there is lot of misery and trouble in the world and probably it is not the perfect creation.

The idea of making the bold statement as above was that:


  • There is pain and misery in the world.
  • It is on account of Divine Order.
  • We cannot change it as we have no power.
  • In nut shell We are helpless as the Hukum cannot be changed or intervened or influenced in any manner by the human beings.

However, after going through your post I think yes, the expression employed by me was ambiguous.You have very rightly observed that the sentence leads to some meaning that may have no relevance to the context.I should have used some other word in place of intervention.

But I am envious of you for the clarity that you bring in your writing.

I am sincerely grateful for pointing out the unintended mistake that crept in. It is a case of usage or 'onion' in place of 'garlic' and you would be gracious enough to forgive me.

Best of Regards
Taranjeet

P.s You may not address me with 'ji'. I am not worthy of it. I am happy if you address me as 'Taran' that is my nick name.
 
Jan 1, 2010
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“This world is full of pain, misery and sickness. God, being omni potent could easily created a perfect world”
Dear brothers/ Sisters,
We come to the point. The pain, misery and sickness. Every body has a different definition of these three words.
Misery: First of all I come to the history when Bhai Mati Dasji was offered earthly boons to agree to the points of Aurangzeb. But Bhaiji had no attraction of his offerings. When one has no attraction and temptation then the miseries have no significance in his/her life.
Pain: When Bhai Mati Dass saw two cruel butchers ready to cut him alive in to two haves. His steadfast faith in the almighty was so great that the pains, Gold and dust were equal to him. He has not bothered about the pleasure which he can have or pain which he will have to face. He did not even care to look towards his family members at the time of his execution.
Sickness: Bhai Mati Das adorned the crown of martyrdom. Why? Because he was permanenty entrenched in the Lotus feet of his beloved Satguru, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahibji. Points to be considered:

  • He drank the cup of sorrow, misery, pain, brutal torture and affliction as delightfully as if it was Nectar.
  • His face radiated like a sun even when being brutally tortured and cut. Aurangzeb severed his body in two but could not saw and cut his Love to the almighty.
  • Kindly go through Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (534) ----
“Raj Na Chahau Mukat Na Chahau
Man Preet Charan kamalaray”
“I crave not for kingdom or Mukti (Salvation), My soul thirsts for the love Your Lotus feet.

  • We come to another example of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib. He sat on the bruning hot griddle under the Cruel Shower of burning hot sand. The same scstasy was manifest on the Holy face of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib when the most cruel death was handed out to him by the most DOGMATIC EMPEROR of the time.

Conclusion:
The Divine lover who is immersed in Guru’s love, in Guru Consciousness, loses body –consciousness and hence feels no pain or torture being inflicated on him. In true love of the Gur, the perfect state of Guru consciousness affords requistie insulation of the soul from body consciousness.

So dear Jasbir Singh Kalekaji, The person who has immersed in Almighty’s love has no reflection of pain and torture misery and sickness.

Rajneesh Madhok
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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As for the negative side. we ask a few questions from the 'believers'.
If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.
Pray, don't say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves. Please don't say that it is his enjoyment. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History?

He is not bound by any law, on the contrary laws are made by Him.In japjisahib Sahib Guru Nanak says,

'
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥
naanak niragun gun karae gunavanthiaa gun dhae ||
O Nanak, God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.
Ang 2

ਕੀੜਾ ਥਾਪਿ ਦੇਇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਆਹ ॥
keerraa thhaap dhaee paathisaahee lasakar karae suaah ||
He could appoint a worm as king, and reduce an army to ashes. Guru Granth ang.144-11. Likewise God can make a non-virtuous person to be virtuous. He bestows more and more blessings on the virtuous. And Guru Nanak says, there is none in the universe who could conceive competence to possess such virtues to confer excellence upon God.

Best regards
 
Feb 19, 2007
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Yes Jasbirkaleka ji, we have all thought about it many times over but none has been able to arrive at any definite answer. All we can see that it must be part of a large plan which we will never be able to comprehend. Hence the word "Hukam"

Guru Nanak who we all know had probabaly the highest IQ ever among all the beings to ever have inhabited this planet says that none can comprehend HIM completely. He made probably the greatest discovery of "Ek Onkar" and for ordinary mortals like me further simplified it to "Naam".

So just because we are not able to understand it, it does not mean that there is no system at work.

Great scientists and thinkers like Stephen hawkins and Charles darwin have tried to explain in a very imperfect manner these sytems but they have at best touched "the tip of the iceberg"

But inspite of all these limitations, Man can never stop trying (and should not stop trying) to understand the ultimate truth. Because as we go along this path, we discover and invent several bye products which are materially beneficial to Man!
All great discoveries and inventions are result such continuos search!

Jasbirkaleka ji, I think I have deviated from your original query. I am sorry for that. I just got carried away. But the answer again is that we do not know!
 

Tejwant Singh

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My quote:
Now, let's try to see the other side of the coin a bit.

We now know that the Dinosaurs and many species were destroyed by the asteroid, which we can call it Hukam.

Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

Today, if the same thing takes place, we will come to know many many years in advance and we will find the way to destroy the asteroid before it destroys us.

Is this intervening in the Hukam in your opinion?

If we do not do anything knowingly and are very aware that this will destroy us, can we consider doing nothing to avoid this a Hukam as well?

The same can be said for the diseases, miseries and other calamities that can be foreseen.


Namjap ji's quote:

Baba Fareed ji says,

ਬੁਢਾ ਹੋਆ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦੁ ਕੰਬਣਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਹ
बुढा होआ सेख फरीदु क्मबणि लगी देह ॥
Budẖā ho▫ā Sekẖ Farīḏ kambaṇ lagī ḏeh.
Shaykh Fareed has grown old, and his body has begun to tremble.

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਜੀਵਣਾ ਭੀ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਖੇਹ ॥੪੧॥
जे सउ वर्हिआ जीवणा भी तनु होसी खेह ॥४१॥
Je sa▫o varėh▫ā jīvṇā bẖī ṯan hosī kẖeh. ||41||
Even if he could live for hundreds of years, his body will eventually turn to dust. ||41||




Namjap ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what Farid ji's salok has to do with my above statement.

It seems more like a riddle to me that I am not able to solve and I do apologise for that.

Can you please shed some light in the relevance and also what the Salok means to you in your own words. What kind of message does it give it to you? Please share with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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Oct 11, 2006
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Rajneesh Madhok ji,
Even if we believe,for for argument"s sake, that a man who has immersed himself in Almighty"s love will have no reflection of pain and torture,misery and sickness,should he also be oblivious of the pain and misery he sees around him?:(:(:(
 

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