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Devanagari As A Writing System For Punjabi: Plus Or Minus For Punjabi?

spnadmin

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I am going to repeat Gyani's words in a different format. A list ... so we can judge for ourselves if this is a recipe toward elimination of a language

Ingredients

1. Replace valid Punjabi words with Hindi and/or English words
2. Write Hindi words in Gurmukhi script
3. Write Punjabi words in Devenagari script

Preparation:

After thoroughly mixing everything up

1. Declare that this is necessary because the Punjabi is deficient and not up to the task of advanced learning

2. Encourage learning regional variants of Punjabi, as spoken local languages, and discourage the study of the written standard in schools

3. Look the other way as officials walk away from the problem

4. Ignore the growing evidence that youth in Punjab are increasingly disabled reading/writing Punjabi.

Why Punjab?
 
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Jan 26, 2012
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There are many practical questions rising from all of this. One of the least important: Should Hindi and Latin scripts be abolished from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Are we sleeping with the enemy? Or can we simply change our preferences to see what we want to see?
My own experience with Sri Guru Granth Sahib was that firstly I accessed it through English translations as a child. Occasionally I tried to use the Roman transliteration, but as many people know this can be problematic. I knew Gurmukhi but very poorly and reading Gurbani can be hard with all the extra vowel symbols that denote singular/plural and all the other grammatical stuff. Eventually when the need grew, I finally polished up my Gurmukhi skills to be able to give myself a reasonable chance at direct access. Despite this I still frequently use translations (be they in Panjabi like Prof. Sahib Singhs, or English like the recent ones by Shackle and Mandair) as support tools.

I don't know if I'm being off point here but what I'm trying to get at is that the wider the access points to the Panjabi language the more people with be able to take the first tentative steps towards deeper immersion into the language.

What we maybe need to focus on in the meanwhile is facilitating and encouraging the growth of quality literature in Panjabi that rivals any other communities. I mean fiction, history, novels, film scripts, SF, short stories. Because right now the majority of stuff being produced is very pedestrian. A lot of it is pendu navel gazing. Most of it would barely stoke the interest of anyone outside the community bar a few specialists.
 

angrisha

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I am going to repeat Gyani's words in a different format. A list ... so we can judge for ourselves if this is a recipe toward elimination of a language

Ingredients

1. Replace valid Punjabi words with Hindi and/or English words
2. Write Hindi words in Gurmukhi script
3. Write Punjabi words in Devenagari script

Preparation:

After thoroughly mixing everything up

1. Declare that this is necessary because the Punjabi is deficient and not up to the task of advanced learning

2. Encourage learning regional variants of Punjabi, as spoken local languages, and discourage the study of the written standard in schools

3. Look the other way as officials walk away from the problem

4. Ignore the growing evidence that youth in Punjab are increasingly disabled reading/writing Punjabi.

Why Punjab?

Spn and Gyani Ji

Please forgive my ignorance in this topic, I'm not totally familiar with what's going on in schools in Punjab.

So the question for me becomes, is this a problem that is recognized on a local day to day level? Or is this something that is already been absorbed into the daily lots of people? If it is true as you say, the policy makers are looking another way, then it has to come from the people in order to influence change.

It is one thing to have academics observe this, quite another to see it observed by those directly influenced with it. So again forgive me, but is what you describe appreciated on a house hold bases? If not, then the first step to ensuring Punjabi is upheld needs to be general education of the problem.

The second step needs to be done locally in the house hhold... What we can do to teach our children and learn ourselves

I'm not convinced that it's only Punjab... I wonder if this is the idea why wouldn't something like Gujarati also be targeted?
 

spnadmin

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Spn and Gyani Ji

Please forgive my ignorance in this topic, I'm not totally familiar with what's going on in schools in Punjab.

So the question for me becomes, is this a problem that is recognized on a local day to day level? Or is this something that is already been absorbed into the daily lots of people? If it is true as you say, the policy makers are looking another way, then it has to come from the people in order to influence change.

It is one thing to have academics observe this, quite another to see it observed by those directly influenced with it. So again forgive me, but is what you describe appreciated on a house hold bases? If not, then the first step to ensuring Punjabi is upheld needs to be general education of the problem.

The second step needs to be done locally in the house hhold... What we can do to teach our children and learn ourselves

I'm not convinced that it's only Punjab... I wonder if this is the idea why wouldn't something like Gujarati also be targeted?
angrisha ji

in order to keep track of this issue, one has to have been tracking it for about 15 years. State and national politics are part of the mix. So to apologize - don't!

One of the shining lights in the story is that - true to the general model where diasporas keep culture and language alive - that is happening for Punjabi. Your observations drawn from Canada are the beacon. I know many young people there, immigrants or born in Canada, who are pursuing the study of Punjabi - and Braj and Urdu - with enthusiasm.

The same is happening in some areas of the US where there are large Punjabi neighborhoods.

Is it happening in other states? That is the 64,0000 million dollar question! Tamil is not so denigrated as Punjabi in areas where the Tamil language predominates. The kind of persistent will to bring the government to terms over the integrity of language and culture was part of the push back by Tamil-Nadu. The study of Tamil is thriving, in India and in the diaspora.

Gujarati has a different profile. It is recognized as an official language of India and by the state of Gurjarat. I don't know enough about the language wars in connection to Gujurati to see any patterns raised in this article.

I agree with you about the importance of educating the public about the problem. It goes without saying because to do less than that puts children at risk
 
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Ambarsaria

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Our chief representative on behalf of Punjab speaking in Punjabi :mundafacepalm:. Present day Punjab, founded (diminished and destroyed) on the basis of Punjabi language.

Prakash Singh Badal's speech during Sadbhavna Mission - YouTube

Akali Dal President Sukhbir Singh Badal In Aamne Samne - YouTube

Might as well burn Punjab down as far as Punjabi is concerned :}--}:

I rest my observation.

PS: Listen to Tamil Nadu Chief minister speak. He has an interpreter for non-Tamil audience, while he speaks in Tamil. That is how project and protect a language, etc.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Angrisha Ji,

Punjab-Punjabi-Sikh - these three ingredients are the reason why for instance GUJARATI or Tamil or Marathi would be out of the "question" in the way you have asked in your post. Gujrati doesnt have the 3 ingredients - its not Punjab its not Punjabi and its not Sikh related.

For you to get at what i am saying is you have to go deep into the History of Punjab and SIKHS...way way back and certainly until 1947-1960 to see why the Punjab-Punjabi-Sikh equation is so UNIQUE or Made out to be "unique".

In 1947 when India got its independence Punjabi was Offcially already recognised as one of the major and 15 Offcial languages. The Nehru Administration started the AUTOMATIC BREAK UP of Pre-Independence states into LINGUISTIC STATES...and thats how Maharashtra for marathi..Gujrat for Gujrati, etc etc came into being from the Pre Independence states of Hyderabad etc. These LINGUISTIC STATES were "born" naturally...and without a single protest form any quarter...BUT when it came to the Turn of PUNJAB...the Nehru Administration decided that this "baby" was not to see the light of Day..at any cost.."Over my DEAD BODY" are the words of Nehru. The Punjabi SUBA Movement was a BANNED MOVEMENT..50,000 SIKHS Marching on the streets of Delhi to demand a Punjabi LINGUISTIC STATE was Lathi Charged by Mounted Police of Independent India of the First time after 1947. The Slogan Punjabi Suba Zindabad was declared Banned and and for saying it out loud one was jailed. 50,000 Sikhs were indeed JAILED. The Story is too long to write here but you need to study it to find the answers to questions like "why not Gujrati" you asked ..Today Punjab still HAS NOT got its legitimate RIGHTS..like its WATERS, its CAPITAL..Chandigarh..etc etc..THESE are ALL part and parcel of WHY PUNJABI ?? why Punjabi in devnagree and not Gujrati ?? The SIKH ingredient is the CAUSE of all this. As long as there are SIKHS..Punjab and Punjabi in INDIA will continue to get this treatment.

The Most POWERFUL REASON why GURMUKHI is at its PEAK TODAY..is solely due to its usage in the GURU GRANTH SAHIB. The GURMUKHI FONTS in use today on the INTERNET were ALL solely invented for the purpose of GURBANI propogation..it was always GURBANI/SGGS..that is the DRIVING FORCE behind the GURMUKHI that we can see on the Internet. For the past 400 YEARS the SGGS has been the major preserving cause of GURMUKHI....if not for the SGGS...this "script would have long disappeared. The FONT invention and dedicated work was all done by INDIVIDUAL SIKHS in their private capacity - such as Dr THIND and many others whose FONTS still hold SWAY over all "download" sites.
On the Internet there is also an ongoig attempt to get people to discard Gurmukhi for Roman spoken Punjabi by popularising softwares that transliterate spoken or written Punjabi in Roman script into Gurmukhi. This can work BOTH ways...

More later..
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Ambarsarish ji has hit the nail on its head...when the CM of PUNJAB speaks in HINDI..then what can we call the State ? Hindipun ?? Maybe... But certainly NOT Punjab.

For an example just take a look at Public GOVT SIGNBOARDS in PUNJAB...just take a look at the Subject PUNJABI in Punjab School results and see how "high" the scores are ?? And just write a letter in PUNJABI to any Punjab Govt Office and watch what happens..

BOTTOMLINE is that its all POLITICAL...POLITICAL will to destroy the SIKHS via Punjab and Punjabi's destruction. Plain and simple logic. The Same Political Will to destroy Punjabi is taking place in Pakistani Punjab - where only the SIKH ingredient is missing but the PUNJAB and PUNJABI determination is still there and that is a threat to those who rule. Thats why URDU is being pushed so hard even to the detriment of the other states that have Urdu as an alien language mostly IMPORTED from Uttar pardesh/Bihar after partition. Balochistan, Peshawar, SINDH..all have their own langauges which are being killed too.
 

Guglani

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Now onto Dr. Joga Singh


Dr. Joga Singh, Dr. Japinder Singh Sidhu and Dr. Sikhandar Singh agree that national language policies and other emerging cultural trends are undermining Punjabi as a language that defines the identity and culture of a people.

However, the picture is far more complicated that the use of Devanagari script.
www.sikhsiyminar-report-experts-worried-about-marginalization-of-punjabi-in-education-media-and-social-use/

There are a number of issues

1. Unnecessary infiltration of foreign words into the Punjabi language, including Hindi and Engish

2. Distortion of the Punjabi language by media that reflect government views that Punjabi is not technically sophisticated enough for technical educaton

3. Commercialization of language by media where revenues depend on integrating Punjabi with Hindi to reach a larger market share

4. Marginalizing Punjabi by reflecting Hindi as the language of an elite class

5. Deliberate efforts were being made by state governments to to establish kangri, dogri, lehndi and other sub-forms of Punjabi as independent languages and thereby reduce the area of Punjabi in social use

6. Attempts to detach Punjabi from the Gurmukhi script in favor of the Devanagari script

So is the mischief being done by Professor Bathia who is observing and reporting? Or is the damage done elsewhere.



There are many practical questions rising from all of this.
spnadmin has analysed various aspects of issues,i will take up first
"Should Hindi and Latin scripts be abolished from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Are we sleeping with the enemy? Or can we simply change our preferences to see what we want to see? ( I do this on search engines because the Devanagari drives me crazy) IN INDIA most cannot simply change their preferences."
Writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in other scripts does not result in another script of Punjabi.Any text in todays world can be transliterated to any script may be by machine translation . That is to give taste of original text to those who do not know language or script of text,but that does not change the script of Original language in which it is written.

If that were the case Roman script would become earlier a script of punjabi and Devanagri comes much later.because Roman is understood and used by a much larger segment of people to know something of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Rather Roman is in paractice by a no. of facebook users to make comments in Punjabi.

Another point, what is more suited Roman(Latin) or Devanagri for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is irrelevant here.Nothing is more suitable than Gurmukhi for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it for user preference ,one who does not know Gurmukhi ,then he choose Devanagri, Roman,Tamil ,Oriya ,Kannara or what script he knows better to read original text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

One of the least important: Professor Bathia, the "outsider," is keeping Punjabi alive. Isn't it a matter of common sense that keeping Punjabi alive will have to take many forms and a lot of will?
For being a script to be belonging to a language , a linguistic expert can better tell what is criteria for it.I can only ennumerate some,<br>

  1. that script must be used by native speakers of the language while learning their mother tongue .
  2. In daily routine while corresponding ,speakers of that language should use that script while corresponding with relations , friends etc.
  3. .A no of newspapers ,periodicals, books print media should be available to prove fact that this script is in common use by speakers of that language.
  4. In modern times Availability of wikipedia web site in that script of language , which is an interactive method of cration of reference material in that language by a no. of users spread across the nations of the World,is another indication or proof that this script is commonly used for writing that language.
Is Prof Bhatia while concluding Punajbi is written in three scripts including Devanagri ,writing a fact or hypothesis.If that is not a fact at this moment,it may become a fact in future that might be an apprenhension, but should a linguistic expert do this in his reporting? deleted



  • Taking his writing as sources , Books like encyclopedia of World Languages speak about three writing methods of Punjabi, which evidence can be produced in courts , at Legistaive councils etc to get Official recognition for this.Encyclopedia book reference I have quoted earlier is in context that how Bhatia's source can be used.It is not bad intention of Encyclopedia editor who is writing on basis of already published material.another evidence of using source is
  • http://awesomescreenshot.com/0911k5ib31 ,which is an article at link http://pa.wikipedia.org/wiki/ਪੰਜਾਬੀ_ਭਾਸ਼ਾ
  • Based on such recognition ,teaching Punjabi in schools can be started in Devanagri script in future ,which will definitely go for undermining Gurmukhi and Punjabi language.
  • There are many more manifestations of Prof Bhatia,s version which are well understood like Infilteration of foreign words, hidinizing of Punjabi language etc.
So to give kudos to Prof Bhatia for popularizing Punjabi is certainly an underestimation of the threat posed by it.


Scope of present topic is being extended to discuss what is future situation of Punjabi by discussing attitudes of Punjabis themselves towards their language , that is welcome but importance of points raised towards title of this thread should not be lost or diluted while discussing.
 
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Guglani

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Is Prof Bhatia while concluding Punajbi is written in three scripts including Devanagri ,writing a fact or hypothesis.If that is not a fact at this moment,it may become a fact in future that might be an apprenhension, but should a linguistic expert do this in his reporting?Is he honest about the subject or some other motive is working behind it to report him like that.Is he keeping Punjabi alive by this or posing dangers to it by popularizing that Punjabi is written in Devanagri ,in terms of infilteration of foreign words,disinsentive to learn Gurmukhi and other undermining processes .Here are some manifestations of his writing.



  • There are many more manifestations of Prof Bhatia,s version which are well understood like Infilteration of foreign words, hidinizing of Punjabi language etc.
So to give kudos to Prof Bhatia for popularizing Punjabi is certainly an underestimation of the threat posed by it.
Here i give some more screen shots of undermining of Punjabi Language deletion Please note that screenshots available at awsomescreenshot site will be erased by site owner after about a month of creation, so those who want to refer after 1 month may ask for links to original sites of these shots to me.


http://awesomescreenshot.com/08f1k89l18


How some people are bent on hindinizing Punjabi is evident from this screen shot.Why Punjabi Native speakers do not form a lobby to join Punjabi wikipedia and contribute there at http://pa.wikipedia.org What is wrong with habits of Punjabis to write in their own language and share it with others ,when becoming users and uploading ones,s own version of an article is totally free without any cost at wikipedia sites?Why wikipedia is in search of users?Why there are so less no. of articles there , whereas small communities like oriya wikipedia ,which is much backward a community has impressive record?


http://awesomescreenshot.com/01a1k88n15











 
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spnadmin

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Guglani ji

Why are you painting Dr. Bhatia a culprit? All he is doing is holding up a mirror to what has already occurred.

You have said and my answers are in blue
that script must be used by native speakers of the language while learning their mother tongue . Agreed. However it is already too late. Devanagari is being used extensively in all kinds of written texts in Punjab. And when native speakers are learning their "mother" tongue in Punjab, they are not learning Punjabi, unless they are learning it at home where they are learning the spoken language not the written one. That is a major reason why this discussion has to look at more than Devanagari script.
In daily routine while corresponding ,speakers of that language should use that script while corresponding with relations , friends etc. Agreed. They should use that script, but they are not using it, or they are using it in combination with other scripts and the English language.
.A no of newspapers ,periodicals, books print media should be available to prove fact that this script is in common use by speakers of that language. Agreed. But take a look at a number of newspapers written in Punjabi, using Gurmukhi font. There are many of them. The print media is there. The script is there. This observation does nothing to discount the use of Devanagari. There is always a difference between the way the world is and the way it should be.
In modern times Availability of wikipedia web site in that script of language , which is an interactive method of cration of reference material in that language by a no. of users spread across the nations of the World,is another indication or proof that this script is commonly used for writing that language. I have not checked wikipedia for the Punjabi language in Gurmukhi script. I can tell you after years of searching that the popular translation apps that are free and for sale do not offer Punjabi. Rosetta stone doe not offer Punjabi. There is a project underway to create a machine application to translate Hindi into Punjabi for business purposes. Note that translation of Punjabi into Hindi is not on the books because Punjabi is not considered that important - in India.
When you brought up the issue of the Devanagari script you opened a can of worms, the bigger problem: the inferior status that is actually accorded to Punjabi and its proper scripts.

How can this be?
So to give kudos to Prof Bhatia for popularizing Punjabi is certainly an underestimation of the threat posed by it.
Who has given him kudos? Who has underestimated the threat posed? Who should we report him to? There is a lot on this thread to suggest that officials are not interested. What you commented below is proof that the official policies tend to sanction the use of Devanagari. Dr. Bhatia is the messenger not the message.

You say
Taking his writing as sources , Books like encyclopedia of World Languages speak about three writing methods of Punjabi, which evidence can be produced in courts , at Legistaive councils etc to get Official recognition for this.Encyclopedia book reference I have quoted earlier is in context that how Bhatia's source can be used.It is not bad intention of Encyclopedia editor who is writing on basis of already published material.another evidence of using source is
http://awesomescreenshot.com/0911k5ib31 ,which is an article at link http://pa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A8%...A8%BC%E0%A8%BE
Based on such recognition ,teaching Punjabi in schools can be started in Devanagri script in future ,which will definitely go for undermining Gurmukhi and Punjabi language.
There are many more manifestations of Prof Bhatia,s version which are well understood like Infilteration of foreign words, hidinizing of Punjabi language etc.
How does one unring the bell? How does one put the toothpaste back in the tube? The Devanagari bell was rung years back and it is already out of the tube. The use of Devanagari script as a writing system for Punjabi is a symptom, and not the problem itself. Some would say and have said that it is better to expend energy, effort and heart on fixing the problem. That is where we are with this conversation. We are looking at efforts to turn things around that have been effective, can reverse this problem and achieve more integrity in the way Punjabi is taught, learned, written and read.
 
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spnadmin

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Guglani ji

I am editing now to upload sceenshots from the 2 links you just posted. These are pictures of how things are. Maybe things should not be this way, but they are. How is Dr. Bhatia to blame? All he has done is write books about grammars and writing systems.

You know, you and I, and others writing on this thread, should join hands and go through this thread point by point. Then we should create a comprehensive list of ways to support Punjabi in Gurmukhi script, and to support learning the mother tongue in its proper script. From that we can devise our own Punjabi Language Movement at SPN. This effort will make a bigger difference than staying fixated on the misuse of the Devanagari writing system. It will achieve more than standing aside watching many factors undermine the integrity of Punjabi. It will further language education in Punjabi because it will underline the causes of problems and put forward directions for the future.
 

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Guglani

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spnadmin jee



How does one unring the bell? How does one put the toothpaste back in the tube? The Devanagari bell was rung years back and it is already out of the tube. The use of Devanagari script as a writing system for Punjabi is a symptom, and not the problem itself. Some would say and have said that it is better to expend energy, effort and heart on fixing the problem. That is where we are with this conversation. We are looking at efforts to turn things around that have been effective, can reverse this problem and achieve more integrity in the way Punjabi is taught, learned, written and read.
Difference lies here in perception.My perception is measuring on yardstick suggested by me that Devanagri is not existing a script for Punajbi Language .So Professor cannot report like that .I have taken this argument with UCLA people , they have changed their website and given me a thanks letter for pointing this mistake in reporting . Read at link http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=95&menu=004 in orthography section of their article.I have further changed the text at http://en.wikipedia.org in an rticle on Punjabi Language . I had to fight with other users and ultimately on evidence of UCLA site one of the rollbackers has retained my version of two scripts and prevented other users form further editing wthout evidence.You may read by exploring there or ask me a link for it.If we give up our hands like this and agree to that already Devanagri is out of tube that will be catastrophic.Gur Angad never succumbed to, that persian is well recognized script or language for expression of Punjabi thoughts at that time and in that very times improved,strengthened native script already in use ,called it Gurmukhi and empowered it for expression of thoughts among the local people.

It is our scholars who have to be so vocal in media worldwide that their version gets acclaimed by the world , and not some outsiders like Bhatia.
But i do not prevent from self analysis, I am only safeguarding against invaders.It was invaders earlier who forced Punjabi people to declare that their mother tongue is not Punjabi but Hindi. It is invaders again telling, look Punjabis! writing script for your mother tongue is not Gurmukhi but Devanagri.Whether these Punjabis are inside or surrounding Indian Punjab. And which print media or web media exists in Punjabi(Devanagri) which you are talking about? .leave Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji aside for the time being.So please recognize the threat causing damages.

GurFateh Jee.
 

spnadmin

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Again Guglani ji

You are very quick to attribute negative motives to other people, now including me. No one has argued that Devanagari is the right way to go. No one has argued that it does not undermine Punjabi.

Writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in other scripts does not result in another script of Punjabi.Any text in todays world can be transliterated to any script may be by machine translation .
Who said it did?

Dr. Bhatia - how is he an outsider? Why do you make him equal to foreign invaders of Punjab?

Congratulations that you were able to change things on the UCLA web site. Will that stop the continued undermining of Punjabi in Punjab? But it is still there.

Like the Devanagari orthography, the Gurmukhi script is an abugida writing system, a system where each consonant has an inherent vowel (namely [a]) that can be modified using vowel symbols that attach to the relevant vowel-bearing consonant. This orthography has forty-one consonant graphemes, nine vowel symbols, two graphemes for nasal sounds, and one symbol that duplicates the sound of any consonant. Also like the Devanagari, Gurmukhi is both written and read from left to right.
Do you think that by getting a symptom of a problem partially under control you have cured the disease?

When we shoot down the flags of the enemy they are still lurking in the hills. I do think you have won a moral victory, and you deserve credit for that.
 
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Ambarsaria

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I believe in this thread and topic we need to be cognizant of at least four possible aspects of Punjabi language.
1. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script
2. [/FONT]Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script
3. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script
4. [/FONT]Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
There are some fundamental principles we need to note which have little to do with the conflicts or deficiencies between scripts and languages.

  • You cannot completely and truly 100% carry phonetics of one script over to another script
i. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Devnagri
ii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to English
iii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi
  • If such is not possible then invariably the vocabularies, grammars and construct would show small or large differences depending on subject matter, the complexity of a work, say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and so on
i. [/FONT]As an immediate application of this, one must conclude that you cannot take Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and using a different script, other than Gurmukhi, carry the teachings of our Guru ji’s unadulterated
ii. [/FONT]It may sound sexy and close to use English, Devnagri, etc., for those who cannot read Gurmukhi, but it leaves Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji open to much mis-use, mis-direction, malice even though many will not be so guilty of this
1. [/FONT]But the few with power to control, preach, mis-direct can very easily exploit this.
2. [/FONT]Such need to be watched and challenged if you love Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s works and teachings.
a. [/FONT]This is the minimum a Sikh should do.
Example: Thanks to Guglani ji for starting this thread and Dalsingh1zero1 to raise the matter with UCLA.
So let us go back to points at the beginning.

1. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script

Folks if you love to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and respectfully learn teachings of our Guru ji’s, you have no option to but learn Gurmukhi script based Punjabi language.

You can of course start with just ability to read translations, ability to understand some vocabulary and grammar, visibility into possible environs of the Punjab as to visualize Guru ji’s times. But if you want to go beyond, Gurmukhi and Punjabi study is essential.

2. [/FONT] Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script

This is fundamental to Sikhism as a requirement in 1. If Punjabis in Punjab, the state created on the basis of linguistics of Punjabi usage, forget elements why Punjab, then they cannot consider themselves to be truly Punjabi. As in other posts and over the Internet, such people are shams thinking Hindi is sexy as they conjure of weird pronunciations to appease their Hindi based handlers. It speaks of utter insecurity, a concept not the foundation of Sikhism but the opposite of “Chardhi Kalaa” or uplifted demeanor. Such insecurity is furthest from Sikhism. We only need to remember the sacrifices of many, who gave us the opportunity in this day and age to have a choice to be Sikhs complete or aspiring.

Don’t let your insecurities or manipulations from the powerful and mighty sway you away from your roots.

3. [/FONT] Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script

Our brothers and sisters in West Punjab are also facing grave challenges. Shahmukhi based Punjabi is under severe attack from so called modern Urdu users with emphasis on Arabics. Same dichotomy as Gurmukhi-Devnagri versus Shahmukhi-Arabic.

We must also recognize that culturally, vocabulary, grammar similarities of pre-partitioned Punjab between Shahmukhi-Gurmukhi were much less emphasized as the beauty was in co or synergistic living of Punjabis. Most of our forefathers, two or three generations removed, perhaps were much more knowledgeable in Shahmukhi script based Punjabi versus Gurmukhi based Punjabi. Bur the spoken or read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji sounded all the same to this class of Punjabis. To all Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims in greater Punjab.

4. [/FONT] Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Any discussion of Devnagri or other scripts needs to be confined in this space. There are actually positive attributes that can be harvested. If someone not very close to Gurmukhi/Punjabi wants to learn the first steps of speaking Punjabi, other scripts known to such person may come of use up to a point. This could also be of use in making nearly sounded phonetics compositions of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But there should be clear warning and notes as to the less than accurate effort in this regard. The end objective is, people being encouraged to develop their understanding further with Gurmukhi/Punjabi.

In this regard translations are also a tool. If we want to be forward looking from Sikhism aspects of Gurmukhi/Punjabi, then we need to encourage better translations into as many languages with as many scripts as possible. Let us see how two of the world’s biggest religions tackle this.

  • Christianity


  • Of fascination here is a wonderfully worded note as,
Important Note
We encourage you to download the Quran in your native tongue to improve your own understanding however please bear the following in mind when reading the Hindi translation of the Quran. The translator has attempted his/her best in translating the Quran from Arabic to Hindi to the best of his/her ability. The translation is limited to his/her understanding of Arabic and his/her command of the Hindi Language. The Hindi translation of the Quran should only be used as a rough translation and should never be considered to be the exact word or alternative to reading and understanding the Arabic Quran. The Arabic language is very old and complex whose roots can be traced back over 5,000 years. A single word in Arabic can mean numerous things simultaneously thus making it extremely difficult to capture the essence of the Quran with most languages proving to be deficient in having adequate words to compensate.
  • Sikhism
o [/FONT]Let there be wonderful translation with utmost accuracy accompanied by a note like one in Islam example above.
o [/FONT]Let all things Punjabi/Gurmukhi be injected into all languages and scripts while never forgetting Gurmukhi/Punjabi original combo.
What you think and I stand corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,203
Ambarsaria ji

Looking to the top of the page at the thread title the purpose of the thread is clear: To ferret out the personal motivations of one who would infiltrate the Punjabi language through the use of he Devanagari script. The OP develops this idea by naming an individual whose motivations are clearly alleged to be that of undermining the Punjabi language. That individual therefore, according to this line of thinking, should be exposed and reported.

Along the iines of

ਨਰਕਿ ਘੋਰਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਖੜਿਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਇ ਗਲਾਵੈ ॥
Narak gẖor muhi kālai kẖaṛi▫ā ji▫o ṯaskar pā▫e galāvai.
He shall be taken to the most horrible hell, with his face blackened like a thief, and a noose around his neck.

You are broadening the discussion once again. Your last 4 points of discussion can take this thread in a noble direction. Overall, a realistic forum goal is to discover how to make Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji available to all. The message of Guru Nanak is not reserved only for Sikhs, or only for Punjabi seekers. An even broader goal is to consider whether Punjabi itself can be advanced through intelligent decisions by governments, educators, scholars, etc.
 
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Guglani

SPNer
Dec 28, 2006
18
8
Again Guglani ji

You are very quick to attribute negative motives to other people, now including me. No one has argued that Devanagari is the right way to go. No one has argued that it does not undermine Punjabi.



Who said it did?

Dr. Bhatia - how is he an outsider? Why do you make him equal to foreign invaders of Punjab?

Congratulations that you were able to change things on the UCLA web site. Will that stop the continued undermining of Punjabi in Punjab? But it is still there.



Do you think that by getting a symptom of a problem partially under control you have cured the disease?

When we shoot down the flags of the enemy they are still lurking in the hills. I do think you have won a moral victory, and you deserve credit for that.
SPNADMIN jee,
You have used some personal attributes for me , perhaps getting hurt by some of my viewpoints about what you said in posts. I have always tried to post quotes from what you posted.In case you differed from my viewpoints you have right to have a view, but please I am even patient enough to digest your personal attributes, important is to proceed further not for discussion sake but for a right diagnosis and solution of problem, about which i understand I have not been able to bring you around my perception or viewpoint.What I have stated is Bhatia has stated a present reality, you are percieving it is a reality that Devanagri is already a third script, that is where exactly I differ. you have not given any answers to that How you believe it is a present day reality, I have stated some criteria for something to be called as script of a language , you have also not stated on which criteria Devanagri already is a third script, rather trying to say it is not much worth discussing because it is already an accepted fact,why because a linguistic expert like Bhatia has said?
Central Institute of Languages in India is not saying this, and example for UCLA i quoted is also not saying this.please see images attached where i am putting what was before and what is after the site reviewed its viewpoint.

And about Bhatia firstly it is youself who used word OUTSIDER for him, I just carried forward that word. And i further explain what I mean in these contexts, an OUTSIDER is one like certain activists of a particular cult who are basically non-punjabis and instigating punjabis in nineteen hundred seventies they instigated about declaration of mother tongue as Hindi, and 2010 onwards they are instigating to declare mother tongue Punjabi but script Devanagri, for which support has been drawn from what Bhatia has said in his book.I hope it explains that I have not equated Bhatia to foreign (wrt India) invaders of Punjab.

I have not quoted my small achievement as victory the least for getting an applause, it is only example of an answer to what we can do? in this context.

I have further explained in present days we should lobby on sites like wikipedia may be not personally you but you can influence some people who can certanly devote time for working on wikipedia sites , review articles there and put forward correct picture of things.

we should further ecourage users at Facebook to converse Punjabi in Gurmukhi script, put comments in Gurmukhi script for their known ones at least those who are Punjabi Natives.

There are many
steps for self correction before amending the entire world around you.At the same time important is to recognize threats by outsiders and take measures before it is too late.
 

Attachments

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,203
Guglani ji

It was not enough to make your case against Devanagari. You had to couple that with personal criticism of Dr. Bhatia. The thread could have been deleted after your 2nd reply on those grounds alone. There is too much valuable information here to delete it now.

My real mistake was to ignore your telling clues, thinking we could take this thread to a higher plane of discussion about the issues. It won't happen again.
 
Last edited:

Guglani

SPNer
Dec 28, 2006
18
8
Guglani ji

It was not enough to make your case against Devanagari. You had to couple that with personal criticism of Dr. Bhatia. The thread could have been deleted after your 2nd reply on those grounds alone. There is too much valuable information here to delete it now.

My real mistake was to ignore your telling clues, thinking we could take this thread to a higher plane of discussion about the issues. It won't happen again.
SPNADMIN JEE,

No matter what I did whether apreciable or not If you feel ,we are getting enlightened by discussion on this thread, I throw a question to Forum

What is the real subject for study Devanagri or People who propagate it to be script for Punjabi writing?

If we answer this, we shall come out perhaps with better suggestions, past should be referred for learning but learning must come out of discussion and then is the time to act.
 

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Ang 724

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