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Definition Of Sant In Sikh Religion

Discussion in 'Questions & Answers' started by sachbol, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    To truely experience multiplicity, to believe in multiplicity, the game has to have you completely convinced right? :)

    oh and Gurbani states God can end at any moment the Khel...so what then....everyone dies? do we feel sad...all the characters Died...but all that was in the beginning (God) is still there at the end lol...what died...nothing... :) lol just Ego...that defines the characters...thats all that would die...

    i'm 100% sure, it's not just as plain and simple as this...taking this inner jouney is just that to truely understand what is what, and why it is what it is...

    God doesn't just sit and watch, he's also part of it...living the khel, and also beyond...it's stuff like this that is difficult to comprehend...how Can He be all the individuals, and also beyond that aspect as well lol..

    Maybe when you experience the truth, the whole truth you would play the game differently...who knows...you have to get there to know what you would do...until then we're all just speculating on what we would do...

    Maybe i will fully experience the truth one day...as yet....it;s just glimses of it..

    Computer Game programmers don;t just want to design worlds....they want to be able to play it, live it, experience it...from multiple perspectives...no two plays are the same...add more worlds, more features...design breeding more design...endless...
     
  2. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I have experienced multiplicity, and I believe in multiplicity, I need no convincing

    My question is simple, given that, why take any aspect of the game seriously?

    Clarify for me where free will comes into this

    We dont know what infinity is, but we do know that if you divide 1 by 0, that is infinity, surely an experiencer of the truth would not play a game, they would be beyond it. Why would anyone spend so much time and so much energy taking away the veils of maya to then jump in and play the game better?
     
  3. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Qatar
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    Not at all.

    Truth Is One. We are all made of the same stuff.

    The ocean is the drop, the drop is the ocean.

    Hence when we all realise our true origin, we merge back into our true essence, as Once.
     
  4. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Qatar
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    Not at all.

    Truth Is One. We are all made of the same stuff.

    The ocean is the drop, the drop is the ocean.

    Hence when we all realise our true origin, we merge back into our true essence, as One.
     
  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Although you still have not answered my last question, I have another..

    You mentioned a story about a demon coming up the stairs, and once you realised it was god, it vanished, ok, makes sense, all is one and all that, but what if a rapist had broken in, and was coming up the stairs? my question is, if this is all a play and all the characters are god, at what point do you question the character rather than accept it as a guise of god?

    A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?

    thanks
     
  6. Balbir27

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    Kindly verify please page 313 of SGGSJ for the quote that you give because I could not find it on that page.
     
  7. Original

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    Page 313 of SGGSJ

    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੪ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਸਵਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਗਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 313}

    This bit here "....ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ ii" is by definition what Mahan Khosh [Conventionally accepted Sikh Dictionary] points to when you look up "sant" [saint].

    Hope this helps !

    Rgds
     
  8. Balbir27

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    Thank you "Original", for responding.
    However I am now mystified as to the page numbers. Some internet sites give this quotation on page 312 while others give it on page 313.For example, rajkaregakhalsa.net gives this quote on page 313, while srigurugranth.org gives it on page 312.
    Searchgurbani.com also gives this quotation on page 312.
    Please enlighten me, anyone.
     
    #28 Balbir27, Nov 7, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  9. Original

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    ...allow me to demystify !

    Correct page is 312 as per SGGSJ and page 313 is the electronic equivalent. But because its a digital configuration variance here n there will occur. Case at hand is a classic example because the original page number got moved to the next page for want of space I guess.

    Sorry Balbir, this is the best I could come up with ! Hope it helps -
     
  10. Balbir27

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    EK OANKAAR

    Many thanks "Original", and apologies for diverting from the actual topic. I shall add some humble thoughts, to contribute.

    Firstly, the question about the definition of "Sant" raises another question, as to what is the purpose of knowing the definition. If it is not for the reason that one (seeking the path of truth) seeks sincerely and thus may, perhaps, utilise the information, then it becomes simply an academic argument or discussion (Sochai Soch Na Hovai Je Sochai Lakh Baar - Jap Ji Sahib) which may be forgotten in the electronic mists of the internet and time.

    For example, I personally seek (as I believe you do), salvation. It is a very, very difficult process. It may be easier if one could have the help of a true "Sant" (here again it depends upon "kirpa"). Assuming therefore, that this is the reason for knowing the attributes of a "Sant" and acknowledging that I personally am not anywhere near that category and that I think I am myself a "manmukh", perhaps the following thoughts may help -

    The SGGS refers to "Sant" in many places - e.g. "Pao sant saranee laag charnee mittai dookh andhaar ||2||
    Do seek the Saint's sanctuary and fall at his feet to remove the misery of your mental darkness." ||2|| SGGS||51. (Hope the page is right)

    So the existence of a "Sant" is not questioned. But how does one recognise a true "Sant"?

    Starting with the Sikh Gurus, I understand them to be "Avtaars" i.e. souls who are close to God and have taken physical birth and form in this material world simply to help mankind.

    Remember that Guru Gobind Singh Ji directed that the SGGS shall be the next and eternal Guru, and thus, there cannot be more Gurus or Avtaars.

    So a "Sant", or more than one, "Sants", are present in this world because the SGGS states so, for the reason that one may seek salvation (from rebirths) by the help of a physical person, as opposed to Avtaars or Gurus (none appear to be present to my mind currently) or the teachings of the SGGS (if one understands it).

    The attributes of the Gurus are well known (I am not going into this as this will open up another huge topic), but I think there is enough information in the SGGS for those who wish to know).

    In summary therefore, a "Sant" will have to have similar or very close attributes to the Avtaars or Gurus mentioned above (do the effort and spend the time in finding out).

    The other thing is that true "Sants" will not go about advertising themselves. One has to seek them out or they may seek you out (Hukam).

    Remembering that the SGGS informs that no one is outside "Hukam", then it simply is a matter of one's own true yearnings, heartfelt feelings, reflected in real-life behaviour, for one to request or pray for salvation, which is the only and primary aim of human life. All else is false. Whether one gets salvation or not, ultimately is up to the Eternal God to decide.

    So, if God wishes you to meet a "Sant", then it is Hukam (regardless of you knowing or not knowing the definition of a "Sant")

    But if God does not wish that, then it is still Hukam (again regardless of you knowing or not knowing the definition of a "Sant").

    In the end, if one is seeking true salvation, then it is dependant on one's own thoughts. plus or minus HUKAM, according to (the Hukam of) the eternal God.

    In the end, what is the use of defining the meaning of a "Sant"? Think.

    Personally, I do not know what God thinks of my actions, according my statements given here, but I sincerely apologise for any mistakes that I have made, because, as always, I am a Sikh, a learner, a searcher for the truth.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
    #30 Balbir27, Nov 8, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  11. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Qatar
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    Self defence. The tenth master taught that we should learn it through his own actions.

    If we don't, and we don't teach out kids, that's our problem.

    Men and women both fought, Mai Bhago was a prime example of a female warrior.

    It's a game but it still has to be played.
     
  12. Harry Haller

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    thank you, but that is not the question, what you have answered is the question, 'should we fight?' my question is

    A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?
     
  13. Balbir27

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    The intriguing part of this conversation, for me, is that, how God, who is Formless and Omni-present, can appear, coming up the stairs or anywhere else for that matter (with or without any knife)? It does not make sense to me, unless the perceiver is a “Guru” himself, but that would raise another question as to why God would personally come after a “Guru” (with or without a knife)? Additionally, I understand it is normally Death who will come for one (regardless of stairs or not) in which case one is a “goner” and the question is superfluous.

    Assuming that one can (actually) see a man coming up the stairs with a knife, then “Sikhilove’s” answer of self-defence appears to be the most sensible option, the other, prudent one, being, to run for it! I don't think you could put the situation into "pause" (in the real-world that is) while you evaluate interactions etc.

    Maybe I’m missing something here. Maybe I should relax and meditate on the Naam more. I think I'll go and do that.....
     
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  14. Sikhilove

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    We've spoken about this many times before Harry.

    You accept its your Karam, defend yourself and from thereon, ensure you sow good deeds to earn better Karams.

    It's still God, He's Fearlessly serving u your Karam.

    We reap what we sow whether it's from this Janam or previous Kamas.

    Think of all the wrongs people have done to you and others. You think a murderer doesn't deserve karma such as being put in the scenario you've described.

    Get rid of your Pity and worldly logic, and look upon everything with Nirvair.

    I turned to God through constant Dukhi, Beatings and thinking almost every night that ghost or demons would kill me.

    It's a game based on hukam and Karam.

    Only He knows why things work the way they do, He knows best and who are we to question it when our Gurus themselves were the perfect examples of accepting His will. Read about the Martyrdom of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.
     
    #34 Sikhilove, Nov 13, 2017 at 4:10 AM
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 4:17 AM
  15. Harkiran Kaur

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    It’s better understood when you think of reality in a different way. I just saw on BBC Earh on a program that paradox how can the Universe be both expanding and infinite at the same time? Think of pure thought... a dream.

    Imagine you dream tonight that you are a pilot, flying a plane. Your copilot is beside you, and the plane is full of passengers. You hear a loud bang on the flight deck door and bam opens the door and a hijacker enters wielding some sort of weapon.

    Now ask yourself these questions:

    1. Who was the pilot really? You?
    2. Who was the copilot?
    3. Who were the passengers?
    4. Who was the hijacker???
    5. Was your true identity / your substance ever in danger?

    The answers are of course that the pilot was not real. It was you playing the character of the pilot. The copilot was also you because it was your dream within your mind and your mind controlled everything. You were also the passengers and the hijacker. And the plane.... and the entire world. Since it all took place in your mind. Now if you slept indefinitely, the dream would be infinite even though you have not yet dreamt all there is to dream in that world because AS you dream it you create more dream world! Therefore both infinite and expanding.

    But let’s get back to you... were you the pilot??? If the plane crashed do YOU die??? Or do you just wake up??? You’d likely at this point say that yes but this world is the waking world and therefore we know that everything is real.....
    If you never did wake up how real do you think your dreamworld is??? Its all you know and for all you know that is everything and if the hijacker stabs or shoots you you die. Only you don’t... you wake up. The pilot was never real.

    Now this world is very much an illusion like the dream. It’s not our dream. We are the characters. Maybe I’m the copilot and you the hijacker. But there is only ONE dreamer. That is Waheguru. And that’s why Waheguru can NEVER take form as an avatar etc. Sometimes a character can conquer death while alive and realize they are in the dream. But then, they know he secret. They really aren’t that separate person. Along with that they also realize every other character is also them. It’s hard to wrap your head around.

    Science already knows this world is an illusion with one base energy which is conscious or aware. The double slit experiment shows that subatomic particles can act as both a wave (formless) or a particle (having form) and the ONLY thing which determines it is a conscious observer. That means our awareness the part of us that makes us a sentient being, can not be a product of matter but something outside it.
    Einstein said that reality is a persistent illusion. In fact most of everything we think is solid is 99.9999% empty space and what’s left are those subatomic particles that can pop into and out of physical existence based on a conscious observer. So what are we (physically) anyway???? Is that physical body really us??

    Anyway point is that although we fight to stay alive this life, which is good and necessary to expand our consciousness as a collective and survive as a species, and the goal is gradual unfolding of spiritual consciousness, or super consciousness... but the drawback is we are so immersed in this dream that we can’t ever fathom that it is in fact a dream. Ever wonder why the Gurus were not afraid to die?? This doesn’t mean allow yourself
    To be killed by an intruder. Or allow someone else to be killed or hurt if you can help. That would not help the goal. It’s like the monster in our dreams stopping us from reaching somewhere we have to be. In reality we are the monster. But while in the dream no matter how much we tell ourselves that, we won’t believe it and so we run or fight. And in doing so we either wake up or reach our goal defeating the monster. The takeaway? We grow... wisdom, spirituality etc.


     
  16. Sikhilove

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    I like this post.

    Were in a constant samadhi/meditation. The world as described in Gurbani is a dream.

    But Earth is a blessing. Even Masters can learn here.

    The Gurus were born into Janams here.

    They learned the reality quickly according to His Will and awoke sleepers to the Truth reality of the Nothingness, and of the Oneness.

    Thats Truth.

    The human body is a precious jewel. It's His temple.
     
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  17. Harry Haller

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    The point I am trying to make is that if, as Sikhs believe, God is in everything and in everyone, if one does believe in God, how does one discriminate between what is good and what is bad. If God is indeed in everyone and if lets even say everything is God's will, then how seriously do you take the game of life? We are aware that we should not dwell on happiness or sorrow as a reality, so how much action should such a believer be taking to ensure they are gaining happiness and losing sorrow?
     
  18. Harry Haller

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    We have, we have, but never really got beyond rhetoric.

    I accept nothing personally, and not the concept of karams, not in a multi lifetime scenario anyway, however if that is what you believe, it answers half the question, I would say then that for you, God is in everything, and the purpose of such is education for the next karam, given the consequences of any action is real and intrusive, then surely the presence of God in everything is a moot point as the knowledge of such is of little help to you if it is for education purposes. Would you say then that if you suffered an attack, that it was God punishing you for a previous karam?

    Also you mentioned the demon that vanished when you questioned if it were God, why is it that demon vanished and a rapist would not? the question is how can you tell the difference? If the rapist is divine justice for a previous life, then what does the demon that vanishes when you pronounce it God, represent?

    thank you
     
  19. Harry Haller

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    I don't want to think of reality in a different way, that would be tailoring the question to the answer, I want to think of reality as it is, reality.

    cannot fault that in any way shape of form

    so far, so good, yup, in complete agreement


    ahhh, ok, stop there, that does not work, the world may well be an illusion like a dream to you, and I completely respect that, no problem, but it is not for me, I know the difference between the world and a dream, and they are very different, so telling me they are the same does not work, there are very very major differences between the two, it is like telling me that dreaming about sex is the same is having sex.

    Ok, so then it is the creators dream, ok fine, I can understand the concept, but to get a fairer argument, whereas in the dream we are the main character, according to this argument, in real life we are relegated to a bit part actor where the creator is the main character, this would suggest then that we are merely traces of god with no real will or purpose than to reflect the wishes of the main character, which I do not think is your argument, but correct me please if I am wrong.

    ok, accepted
    nope not at all, its very very easy to get your head around, however, I would wager than anyone that did conquer death while still alive would not have the normal desires and needs of a normal person, they would in effect , be nothing, want nothing, they would just be happy to be at one with the dream, do you ever lucid dream? I have not for a while, but I used to quite often before, as a child, I would steal buses and cars, and drive around crashing into things, as I got older, the dream became more sexual, I think as the novelty wore off, towards the end, I would just sit and watch, and just enjoy the dream, there was no one to impress, no goal to fulfill, just me, and a world where I could do anything and be anyone

    I can understand that

    Again, understandable and agreeable

    You have hit the nail on the head why the dream theory cannot be correct, if a large proportion of society were to accept this concept, or heaven forbid, it were to become common practice, then we would stop fighting, stop searching, stop expanding that collective consciousness, and we would not survive as a species, it is our egos and our pride, our desires and our lusts that drive us, that motivate us, so I would now ask you the question, you know the truth, you know the truth of the dream, what motivates you? what drives you? and more to the point why?

    thank you
     
  20. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.

    And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you will one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL
     
    #40 Harkiran Kaur, Nov 15, 2017 at 7:05 PM
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM
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