Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

[harmanpreet singh]

...and yet you are here

you can check the ratio of my total posts to time here .

 

[aristotle]

The above is just your way of saying ''I don't know what spirituality is and it can't apply to me''

Do you think that gurus and sikhi condemned all ancient scriptures or was it the practices being performed by the so called translators and readers ?

So, you are saying that philosophy of the Gurus was practically an extension of the philosophy of Ancient Hindu Scriptures?

PS- Sir, I was a student of Hindu and Buddhist theology, I have read a 'large' part of those scriptures, my knowledge about the Hindu scriptures does not come from hearsay.

 

[aristotle]

you can check the ratio of my total posts to time here .

The time you spend here is entirely your choice brother, but if are going to call everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of Sikhi an atheist, that's not quite right, is it?

 

[Luckysingh]

But from what I understand, the Rajo/Tamo/Sato Guna philosophy of Maya is an inherently Hindu concept (nothing wrong in that though), the Sikh concept of Maya is a little different.

I don't think or understand the sikh concept of maya no different to that or any different to what Neo and co. show us in ''The Matrix".
I can't understand how you see it as ''a little different''.

 

[Luckysingh]

So, you are saying that philosophy of the Gurus was practically an extension of the philosophy of Ancient Hindu Scriptures?

PS- Sir, I was a student of Hindu and Buddhist theology, I have read a 'large' part of those scriptures, my knowledge about the Hindu scriptures does not come from hearsay.

I never said anything about sikhi being an extension or the missing gaps.
I asked your opinion on whether they condemned the scriptures themselves or the practices being performed.(bearing in mind that all the practices in every faith are never directly in accordance with scriptures)

 

[aristotle]

I don't think or understand the sikh concept of maya no different to that or any different to what Neo and co. show us in ''The Matrix".
I can't understand how you see it as ''a little different''.

Well, if you accept the Tri Gunas philosophy of Maya, then probably you accept the Devis/Devtas as the inacarnations of the Hindu Cosmic Shakti too. It is a part of the same concept written in the same scripture, explained by the same theology.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

The time you spend here is entirely your choice brother, but if are going to call everyone who does not agree with your interpretation of Sikhi an atheist, that's not quite right, is it?

and anyone who disagree with your interpretation of Sikhi , becomes Hindu or Abrahmic ?

 

[aristotle]

I asked your opinion on whether they condemned the scriptures themselves or the practices being performed.(bearing in mind that all the practices in every faith are never directly in accordance with scriptures)

They didn't condemn, but they certainly rejected the existing Hindu theology. Vedas, Smritis, Upnishads ARE the Hindu theology, Gurus clearly state in Gurbani they didn't think in accordance to these scriptures.

 

[aristotle]

and anyone who disagree with your interpretation of Sikhi , becomes Hindu or Abrahmic ?

Lol...Is pointing out a Dharmic or Abrahamic argument a crime? Isnt that a part of the discussion? I do not condemn any faith. If someone is a Hindu or Budhhist, I'll still respect his faith, but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of other faiths?

 

[harmanpreet singh]

but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of other faiths?

but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of Atheism ?

 

[Harry Haller]

I give up... I guess if Sikhi is what you guys say then I am not Sikh because I believe (know) inside that I am more than my physical shell.

I do not think anyone has caste doubts on your Sikhi, I personally believe you to be more of a Sikh than myself, I got used to being a heretic long ago.

According to you I must be athiest if in belief to be 'correct' Sikh even though vast majority of Sikhs believe in and strive for the spiritual that I am having a hard time to explain to you... But that I know exists.

Again, no one has said this, in fact you are inferring I am an atheist, which I am not, and I actually take issue with, I have no problem with the spiritual at all, the boys (chaz/Luckyji) have influenced me to the point where, yes I can see what it is all about, yes I respect it, No, its not for me.

So since I can't not believe in something that I have glimpsed myself, and I could never be athiest and to you guys the physical is all there is to Sikhi... It's all about getting along with the neighbours so to speak.... So in light of that revelation I have decided to not take Amrit in Sept.

I am not an atheist, no one on this forum is, We are all Sikhs, why do you have to get on or keep anyone happy, if you know in your heart you are on your path, then you have to go for it, that is what this is all about, not trying to placate people, or be popular, I know what is in my heart, that is what I write about, I am sorry I appear to have offended you, but you could never live my life and I could never live yours, so why should our methods of connection be the same? Why should we even be able to understand each others methods? it really does not matter.

I guess I am not Sikh in belief according to you so I should not become Khalsa if what I believe is not 'true' Sikhi.

Again no one has said anything like this

And I guess I should no longer consider myself Sikh either.

I have re read my post again, I will sum up the argument if you wish, spirituality has nothing to do with stripping off, Suraj Prakash, miracles or meeting god.

Spirituality, in my opinion, has everything to do with an attitude to life, connection to Creator, and Creation and being in consonance with all, to that end, I aspire for spirituality.

 

[aristotle]

but why do we try to interpret Gurbani through the spectacles of Atheism ?

How exactly am I an atheist? Because I don't believe in miracles, that's why?

 

[Luckysingh]

Well, if you accept the Tri Gunas philosophy of Maya, then probably you accept the Devis/Devtas as the inacrnations of the Hindu Cosmic Shakti. It is a part of the same concept written in the same scripture, explained by the same theology.

Look, quite simply if you accept Maya, then you accept the understanding of tri-gunas and the illusion.... and I do understand and accept.

Likewise, if you accept Devi/devtas and hindu cosmos, then you accept the understanding or what you think you understand..... and quite frankly I don't accept or find any reason to blend them with the Maya, illusion, chauthapadh, going beyond...etc... that gurbani speaks about.

This is the same kind of problem where reincarnation and caste system keep getting shadowed under the same umbrella.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

How exactly am I an atheist? Because I don't believe in miracles, that's why?

How believe in " Conscious Creator " and "Soul" appear Non Sikhi to you ?

 

[aristotle]

Look, quite simply if you accept Maya, then you accept the understanding of tri-gunas and the illusion.... and I do understand and accept.

Likewise, if you accept Devi/devtas and hindu cosmos, then you accept the understanding or what you think you understand..... and quite frankly I don't accept or find any reason to blend them with the Maya, illusion, chauthapadh, going beyond...etc... that gurbani speaks about.

This is the same kind of problem where reincarnation and caste system keep getting shadowed under the same umbrella.

As far as my knowledge goes, Gurbani has many mentions of the word Maya, but nowhere are the Three Gunas named (thoug they are referred to as the three attrubutes at many places). Gurbani does not endorse the concept the same way as the Hindu scriptures do. Hindu philosophy says the Maya is a product of the प्रारबद्ध कर्म, a product of the Cosmic Shakti which also brings forth the त्रिदेव Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha.

On the other hand, Gurbani does say that the theology of Vedas, Smrities, Puranas is nbot the road to freedom. This does not equal rejection of the concept of Maya, or condemnation of those scriptures, but simply that it has its own view of Maya.

Sri Rag, Third Guru.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
In the three temperaments is the attachment of wealth. The Guru-beloved attains to the fourth state of celestial beatitude.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
The Lord mercifully unites with Himself those, within whose mind God's Name enters and acquires an abode.

ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
They in whose treasure is benevolence, them the Lord unites with saints congregation.

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O Brother! abide thou in Truth by guru's instructions.

ਸਾਚੋ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Practise nothing but Truth and unite with the True Name. Pause.

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
I am a sacrifice unto those, who have recognised God's Name.

ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
Having renounced my self conceit I fall at their feet and walk (act) in accordance with their-will.

ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
Reaping the profit of Lord God's Name, I shall thus be easily absorbed in Name.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Without the Guru, man obtains not God's mansion, nor does he attain to His Name.

ਐਸਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਦੂ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
Search for and obtain such True Guru through whom mayest gain that True Lord.

ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
He, who slays his evil passion abides in peace. What ever pleases Him that comes to pass.

ਜੇਹਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
As is the intensity of belief in the True Guru, so is the comfort, the mortal obtains.

ਏਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਾਉ ਲਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
There is absolutely no doubt in this, but only a rare person embraces love for the Guru.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
Nanak, God and the Guru have two forms but they have the same one Light. It is by the word that mortal attains to the union with God.1

(Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, Page 30)

Simply beacuse Gurbani illustrates its point using the concept does not automatically mean it endorses the whole theology this word represents.

Baba Farid also uses the Islamic concept of the death angel (ਮਲਕੁ or Malikul-maut) and this Shabad is included in the Gurbani does not mean Gurbani endorses the Islamic concept of death. Hope you see my point.

 

[aristotle]

How believe in Non Physical "Soul" and "Creator " appear Non Sikhi to you ?

Please don't twist the argument like this. No one has denied the 'Creator', it is just the Vedic and Abrahamic concept of Creator which I deny.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Please don't twist the argument like this. No one has denied the 'Creator', it is just the Vedic and Abrahamic concept of Creator which I deny.

dear i used " atheist" only for those who deny "Conscious Creator " and " Soul" and there are many here . and i respect atheists and their logic but to me thats not Sikhi .

 

[aristotle]

dear i used " atheist" only for those who deny "Conscious Creator " and " Soul" and there are many here . and i respect atheists and their logic but to me thats not Sikhi .

Then you agree that bringing Hindu concepts into Sikhi is not Sikhi either?

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Then you agree that bringing Hindu concepts into Sikhi is not Sikhi either?

you mean "Creator" and "Soul " is a Hindu concept ?

 

[aristotle]

you mean "Creator" and "Soul " is a Hindu concept ?

I am talking about Triguna, Mukti, chanting Gurbani like Sikh Mantras, transmigration, heaven/hell...