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Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

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mandemeet

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Apr 5, 2012
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Sardar Sahib

My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the sabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning.

What is gharab? Gurbani tells us, 'ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥ and what is 'maya'? 'ਏਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ what distance us (manmat)from God is maya and this is gharab juene.

When guru sahib says, 'ਏਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੀਨੋ ਤਾ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਨ ਮੁਆ ॥ which rebirth gurbani is telling,- mandai kama wala? Guru sahib is not telling that since you have given me birth, now I will do something(through rituals or dying in sabd) that you will not be able to make blunder again to give me rebirth. Why anything wrong with this birth? It is all about manh.

Permit me to put it up from another angle, despite all our efforts, if, 'ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਊਭਿ ਚੜਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ when manh is 24 hour hyper and not getting stable, this sorrow and disturbed state of mind is called aavan javan, this state of mind is called jamna marna but, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥ guru nanak has tied/imbued his manh with a home where there is no death/birth and no old age, means when there is no rebirth naturally he will not die again. As gurbani says, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ so long as I eye on others wealth, others fight, beauty and slandering, cycle of this disturbed state of mind (pal pal janma marna will never end). Once I understand this laws of nature and implement, I will never get disturbed.



Japjisahib ji,

My responses to your quotes are in color

“My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the shabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning….
What is gharab? Gurbani tells us, 'ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥ and what is 'maya'? 'ਏਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ what distance us (manmat) from God is maya and this is gharab juene.” quote

Please don’t define ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon as Maya. You are simply using your assumption again. Here I will give you just one example

ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥ ਤਉ ਜਠਰ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤਾ ॥੨॥ Garabẖ jon mėh uraḏẖ ṯap karṯā. Ŧa▫o jaṯẖar agan mėh rahṯā. ||2|| (337)

Clearly “ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon” is not taken as Maya in these verses; see the entire shabd, you will understand what I am talking about. If we accept what you say, we will not be able to make sense of many verses of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as in the case of above quote.

Let me give you another example how you give a new meaning to the Gurbani, which is questionable:

Here is your quote:11
“It all depends how we understand and interpret gurbani. Like, 'ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥ as per my understanding to 8.4 millions habits, guru sahib is saying like zillion in common English and (rizak diya) provide them for their elevation the godly virtrues, thus all animal instincts within me gets transformed and not as is assumed material bhojan for sustenance.”

According to you as state above, again the meaning is changed though this estimation ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ is always used for the lives not for Maya as you claim.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jī▫a upā▫e. Jis no naḏar kare ṯis gurū milā▫e.

ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਕਾਟਿ ਸਦਾ ਜਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Kilbikẖ kāt saḏā jan nirmal ḏar sacẖai nām suhāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|

Let us for a moment, we accept 84 lakhs are habits, as you claim, what we will do with the words ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ (the lives are created)?

Then according to you, the habits means lives and habits are given food. Clearly the layman has to go to you to understand it. You assume and decide “once for all”, but repeatedly it is all the times used for the lives as this estimated number generally talked in the old times in India, nothing more than that. Even if you go through the entire shabd, the meaning remains the same. We just cannot say that “garbh jon” means Maya.

Your quote
When guru sahib says, 'ਏਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੀਨੋ ਤਾ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਨ ਮੁਆ ॥ which rebirth gurbani is telling,- mandai kama wala? Guru sahib is not telling that since you have given me birth, now I will do something (through rituals or dying in sabd) that you will not be able to make blunder again to give me rebirth. Why anything wrong with this birth? It is all about manh.

I couldn’t make anything out of it. What it has to do with what we are discussing?

Your quote:
Permit me to put it up from another angle, despite all our efforts, if, 'ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅਡ਼ਾ ਊਭਿ ਚਡ਼ਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ when manh is 24 hour hyper and not getting stable, this sorrow and disturbed state of mind is called aavan javan, this state of mind is called jamna marna but, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥

I have done my best to explain you not to generalize “janam marn” usage. This is the way you tear apart often the message in the Gurbani. The verse at the end of your quote is on 44. In that shabd, procuring His Naam is promoted that is deemed as more important than dominions and in that shabd, there is one other verse ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਰਾਪਤੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਥਿ ॥੧॥ The word ਮਹਲੁ is not a state of mind; it is that word that is linked to the last verse ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥੪॥੬॥੭੬॥ Here also don’t forget the word ਜਰਾ which means old age. Through these all efforts, the Guru conveys a message of “sehj awastha: by procuring Naam. Wherever you see “janm and maran” you cannot relate it to ups and down of life in every context. In other words, no generalization of this usage. My respond to your post was because of your misinterpretation of “Puner janam” and I brought to your notice how “Punerjanam” is expressed through Garbh jon”( which you have named “Maya” now)

Your quote:

As gurbani says, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ so long as I eye on others wealth, others fight, beauty and slandering, cycle of this disturbed state of mind (pal pal janma marna will never end). Once I understand this laws of nature and implement, I will never get disturbed.

Now you are defining ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ that can also be refuted. I request you to stay on one usage. You bring one line from here and there and keep jumping like a ball. Remember in my post I remain focused only at “garbhjoon” to refute your point. What you are trying to do is to give new meaning by bringing new words ignoring the contexts about which I just discussed above. How you ignore the context, I have already pointed out your brand new meaning of “eighty-four lakh joon” in your quote number 11

Japjisahib004 ji, .Going into circles will not help anyone. You should not always take “janam maran” only for a plight of one’s mind. The words change in contexts. I believe intellectual like you are aware of this. I have done my best to explain you why generalization is dangerous especially in context of the Gurbani. One last example I can give is about a word to show you how it conveys different meaning in different contexts. Examples
1 issue = I have received the july issue of science discoveries.
2. Issue = What is the issue that stops you going to their meeting?
3. Issue = Do you have any issue (child)?

Thanks
Regards
mandemeet
 
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japjisahib04

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In anand sahib guru sahib cautions us, 'ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥ once attachment of grudge, biased is eradicated, their speach becomes so sweet that they never lose civility.

Let us learn from each other
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant Singh ji

Sat Sree Akaal ji!

I usually don’t respond to any biased reaction, but just for the record, here are my views in context of your reaction to my post.

I responded to Japjisahib004’s one-liner Gurbani quotes. Haven’t you noticed before Japjisahib004 has been using one-liner quotes on this thread for a while? Didn’t you feel that his one liner quotes could mislead the cyber sangat? When he posts one-liner, it is ok, but when someone, who is in disagreement with your views, posts one-liners, then the all posters must be advised and counseled to post the entire shabd. I have given pages with my one liners so that if anyone wants, one can look at that and explore further but Japjisahib004 even didn’t give pages like in post number 24 or 96 and you appreciated him, didn’t you? Where is fairness? Such uncalled-for intervention is enough for me.

Now I wonder how I have lost civility by questioning his interpretation!

Thanks.
Regards
mandemeet
Mandemeet ji

Guru Fateh.

Please read the very first line in my post which I think you missed it some how. I wrote ALL and I am sure you understand what that means. What do you mean by biased reaction? Please elaborate. I am bit puzzled by your claim.

Civility is how one interacts. One has every right to disagree but not being disagreeable because all of us are here to learn from each other.

I will wait for the whole shabad of your one liner with your own understanding in the Gurmat Vichar section and then we will go from there. Please read my previous post so we can interact.

Let's stick to the subject of this very thread please. Akasha ji has put great effort in it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Luckysingh

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In anand sahib guru sahib cautions us,

'ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
once attachment of grudge, biased is eradicated, their speach becomes so sweet that they never lose civility.

Let us learn from each other
The bold is your interpretation.(Non-Spiritual... as per thread title)

The below is mine, underneath srigranth's (Spiritual and to my inner/sukham understanding)

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
Kar kirpā kilvikẖ kate gi▫ān anjan sāri▫ā.
Granting His Grace, He cuts away our sins;
He blesses us with the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom.

With his grace, our wrongdoings/wrong ways are ''saria''-arranged or put in order... The above mention of healing ointment (not literal)implies the unformity in his arrangement..such that on a direct cut from a thorn on the skin, an ointment is applied uniformly to the same site. ..ie at the point of wrongful/painful action.
Therefore, for all our wrong attempts or ways as per quantity/size, he blesses the same amount of equalizing/eradicating spiritual gyan.
The size of a blemish that you may put on yourself, will be wiped and removed with the equal amount of gyan required to make it dissapear.

ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
Anḏrahu jin kā moh ṯutā ṯin kā sabaḏ sacẖai savāri▫ā.
Those who eradicate attachment from within themselves, are adorned with the Shabad, the Word of the True Lord.

Where does this gyan come from ??
It is via the shabad that comes from waheguru himself.
This shabad is not uttered with our voices in sweetness as you have mentioned above. This shabad is only HEARD within in your consciousness to those that seek antarghat.
It is the AKATH KATHA-unspoken word.
You could call it Waheguru's voice, but me and you cannot be uttering or be the point of origin of this shabad/voice of Waheguru.

How is this attachment eradicated within ?
This is only by love, effort and subduing your mind, thoughts, intentions...etc.. again totally inner/sukham/spiritual approaches.
The way you mentioned above about speaking sweetly with tongue is more of an attachment itself to your own Ego.
Remember that joy/sorrow, sukh/dukh..etc.. is ONLY felt by your EGO.
So speaking in sweet voices is not going to take you away from ego.. it is just orderly conduct. There is no use speaking sweetly when your inner Mind may be cursing..!
 

japjisahib04

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My Guru is so sweet, 'ਮਿਠ ਬੋਲੜਾ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ ਹਉ ਸੰਮਲਿ ਥਕੀ ਜੀ ਓਹੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਕਉਰਾ ॥ that I have grown weary of testing Him, but still, am not able to find single time harsh words. And pity we are talking of punishment and consigning to 8.4 juenes, when He does not even consider my short comings, 'ਅਉਗਣੁ ਕੋ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥.

I have noticed that most of the shaloks that allude to reincarnation in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji usually end in something like this (paraphrasing): "In order to end your sufferings 'guna naal sannjh karo'. Once we imbibe divine virtues, we will no longer fluctuate between different personalities, you will no longer be a greedy snake one day and a lustful elephant the next, you will have effectively broken the cycle, no more reincarnations for you in this life, and as a result, be living a Gurmukh lifestyle.

There is another pankti popularly which linked with previous life, 'ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1159. Now first question is, if I was a dog, cat or any other bird in previous life, in that juene could I perform guru dee seva. Have we have seen a dog and or cat performing kirtan in gurdwara. Then who is 'manas dyhi' and what is seva and or bhagti that kabir is referring in this pankti.

Firstly let us not get confused that we are human being. Why? because until we listened the inner message (saabat vasat)and practice, we remained an animal, kartook pashu kee manas jaat or pasu manas cham platai Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 1284.

Thus as per gurbani, satguru kai janmai gavan mitaiya by emulating the divine virtues, we obtained the manas dehi which have been referred at several places as 'durlabh manukh deh'also, thus this seva is not linked with previous life but with present life by inculcating the divine virtues and bhagati is introspection - paving way for manh to enter into nijhghar and not parroting,fasting, pilgrimage or aarti.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The Gurus and the Bahgats who are in the SGGS were BORN HUMAN...they lived HUMAN LIVES..they wrote GURBANI using HUMAN language paper ink etc etc. There is NO ANIMAL< bacteria, virus, tree vanaspathee life etc etc INVOLVED. GURBANI is for HUMAN EYES HUMAN EARS..by Humans for Humans OF Humans...no dogs cows donkeys, birds snakes jackals elephants buffaloes involved.

GURU dee SEVA...DARSHAN..HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA, hukm mannanh, etc etc are HUMAN things..only HUMANS can do. BHAGTEE is human task..accomplished only by humans..Bhagtee Marg is Human, Naam simran is Human..SGGS is FOR HUMANS...to LIVE by and CHANGE our HUMAN LIVES...

Unless someone can show me a Dog doing bhagtee, naam simran, guru dee seva etc so as to be reincarnated as a HUMAN ( and NO gaurantee then that that DOG human will do what the SGGS says a Human should do...). YES..certian FAKE BHARAM-AGYANIS will tell tall tales...example..A rarewallah Saadh sayingt eh Queen Victoria was a ***** in his Waddeh babajis DERA..she ate one piece of JOOTHEE roti the baba ji threw at her..and she was Blessed with the BRITISH EMPIRE !!! or a certain butcher was chaisng his ruan away cow..and someone pointed it out..then he was REBORN with a MISSING HAND...blah blah blah..all pure BS and entertainment....Picchhleh janam vich heeereh motee daan karo..es janam vich BRAHMIN janamo..But Bahgat Kabir jia sks the Brahmin..why you sued the same old way to come to this world as myself..or the Lowest castes also use (Womans womb)..ANY HIGHLY SPIRITUAL HUMAN ever came to this world by ANY OTHER WAY ???..OUR GURUS showed us the way..we still hanker after the "spiritually evolved" ones offering us the British Empire...just eat their babajis JOOTH !!! and you will be surprised how many Sikhs HANKER after this JOOTH of so called spiritually higher beings..BS..The RS Beas guy spits into the parshaad..making it spiritually PURE !!! many other highly spiritual fellows do that too...its a blessing to eat that ????

ALL the CHANGES, the reincarnations, the REBIRTHS happen RIGHT HERE and NOW..in HUMAN FORM...the LIGHT DAWNS NOW..Heereh jaisah janam hai...kaudee de bhao gavaii...raat gavaii soi keh..din gvaiahyah khai...what a waste of the 100 YEARS we get...(most lucky ones only..others die early).
 

Tejwant Singh

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Mandemeet ji

Guru Fateh.

As you must have noticed that we are starting the project to interpret Anand in a collective manner here at SPN.

I would like you to be our torchbearer in this very important project. Therefore, I request you to give it a start by translating the First Pauri of Anand with your own understanding and we will all pitch in with ours. Hence in a collective way, we can make it easier for many people to understand Gurbani in this way rather than the current ones which are sprinkled with 'Biblical Pollen' which was not done in a deliberate fashion but happened organically as the earlier translators were all Christian missionaries.

When you read through the thread, you will notice that Aman ji has created a special section for this great project.

When do you think you will be able to post the first Pauri of Anand with your understanding?

I am certain that a well articulated and a knowledgeable person of Gurbani like you would love to be the major part of this project as a Sikh because we want and urge you to be. Sikhi demands this from all of us, especially from Gurbani scholars like you.

Your help with your wisdom and knowledge of Gurbani will be a gold mine for this project and we need you to be the first baton bearer for this Sikhi relay race for the sake of Sikhi.

I want to thank you in advance for that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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The bold is your interpretation.(Non-Spiritual... as per thread title)

The below is mine, underneath srigranth's (Spiritual and to my inner/sukham understanding)

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਟੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
Kar kirpā kilvikẖ kate gi▫ān anjan sāri▫ā.
Granting His Grace, He cuts away our sins;
He blesses us with the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom.

With his grace, our wrongdoings/wrong ways are ''saria''-arranged or put in order... The above mention of healing ointment (not literal)implies the unformity in his arrangement..such that on a direct cut from a thorn on the skin, an ointment is applied uniformly to the same site. ..ie at the point of wrongful/painful action.
Therefore, for all our wrong attempts or ways as per quantity/size, he blesses the same amount of equalizing/eradicating spiritual gyan.
The size of a blemish that you may put on yourself, will be wiped and removed with the equal amount of gyan required to make it dissapear.

ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੁਟਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
Anḏrahu jin kā moh ṯutā ṯin kā sabaḏ sacẖai savāri▫ā.
Those who eradicate attachment from within themselves, are adorned with the Shabad, the Word of the True Lord.

Where does this gyan come from ??
It is via the shabad that comes from waheguru himself.
This shabad is not uttered with our voices in sweetness as you have mentioned above. This shabad is only HEARD within in your consciousness to those that seek antarghat.
It is the AKATH KATHA-unspoken word.
You could call it Waheguru's voice, but me and you cannot be uttering or be the point of origin of this shabad/voice of Waheguru.

How is this attachment eradicated within ?
This is only by love, effort and subduing your mind, thoughts, intentions...etc.. again totally inner/sukham/spiritual approaches.
The way you mentioned above about speaking sweetly with tongue is more of an attachment itself to your own Ego.
Remember that joy/sorrow, sukh/dukh..etc.. is ONLY felt by your EGO.
So speaking in sweet voices is not going to take you away from ego.. it is just orderly conduct. There is no use speaking sweetly when your inner Mind may be cursing..!
Guru Fateh to all.

I would request JapJi (Sahni Sahib) and Lucky ji to please post the whole Shabad with your understandings. It would be a good idea to also look at the preceding and the following pauris to enhance your understanding. You may post on the place which Aman ji has separated for us for this great endeavour.

Please, let's not hijack this wonderful thread and interaction that Akasha ji started.

I would leave it to the Moderators' discretion to move the unrelated posts in this thread to wherever they find it appropriate.

This request once again goes to ALL who post one liners in any thread, otherwise the Moderators will be forced to delete the whole post which would make some great thoughts disappear in vain.

Your cooperation would be much appreciated to streamline the interaction.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Gyani Ji,

Yes SGGS was written for humans to read and understand... because humans are the only ones with developed enough consciousness to understand and 'contemplate' Gurbani. We are told numerous times that this is our chance... because THIS life is special. And that is why. It doesn't mean that none of the other animals do not posses ANY consciousness at all. Very many animals can and do act on more than pure instinct. When we realize that ALL is ONE then we can start to see that we as humans are really not so different from the rest of the animals... btw we are still animals. And other animals posses consciousness on higher levels as well... dolphins for one, elephants, and many others have been proven to recognize their own 'self' in a mirror, a test often used to prove self awareness.

I'm sure you already read my take on reincarnation being irrelevant so I won't repeat it... but I also don't believe that every reference in Gurbani is simply a metaphor for something else and that everything is just referring to states of mind etc. There really IS much more to this Universe than this one physical life - you can see it if you open your mind... SGGS is not just a book on psychology. It surpasses the physical in meaning as well.
 

Ambarsaria

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Akasha ji just a thought if it helps in this thread.

Let us ask ourselves who was the audience for Guru ji when they tackled beliefs. These were predominantly Hindus of one belief version or another.

What these people possibly believed in at that time, and many believe till today and so it continues is the following,

  1. A hierarchy of Gods and subordinates;
  2. To reach to the Gods for favors, to be saved from being born as a worm or a snake as part of the 8.4 million life forms (reincarnation), good luck, asking for disease to remedied, the possible birth of a son, to get the Gods to provide rain, save from floods thereafter, were and still are,
    • The Brahmins;
    • That is where the hierarchy upward to wards God, the understanding thereof starts;
  3. The Guru ji audience was not the Brahmins as this hierarchy created their livelihood and they were not so eager to leave their place at the top of the humanity heap;
  4. So Guru ji approached the oppressed, the misled, the misguided, and such directly bypassing the Brahmins;
  5. Guru ji had to talk the talk of the audience to ensure their message, their teachings, and guidance found traction;
  6. As part of this methodology Guru ji talked about re-incarnation and the like and guided people away from these myths;
  7. If Guru ji state in a shabad that if you understand this way or relate to the creator that way, then you will break the reincarnation cycle;
    • It is wrong to conjecture from this that since they said if you do, you will break the cycle of joons/rebirths, that they some how implied that otherwise you will go through the 8.4 million cycle of life forms;
  8. The same applies to other stuff like eating meat, believing in karma in that when something bad happens you are paying for wrongs done by your forefathers and the Brahmin can talk to God and do things that will right such issues, and so on;
  9. Guru ji's teaching is for the indoctrinated and myth believers. I don't think Guru ji felt that they needed so much teaching for the open minded and with reasonable logic thought processes and cognition.
This is the meaning of "contextual" when we read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and try to understand or declare it is like this or that and "I am right"/"You are wrong" and vice versa. For the right minded perhaps there are few areas to refresh one's understandings through challenge and thought while for the heavily indoctrinated with beliefs trumped in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the challenge is substantial. For some the challenge may be insurmountable if they are also continuously bombarded by misdirecting people that they are influenced by.

Even when one should not generalize, it is so easy to see who is coming from which camp through their posts.

Let the shared learning continue.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Abarsariah Ji,
Well said.
The "Context" of Gurbani is vital in understanding its message.

TODAY, the PUJAREE CLASS..the half baked Granthis, Bhai Jis, Ragis, kathawachaks, etc etc and at the APEX the so called JATHEDARS or the self appointed THEKEDAARS or CUSTODIANS have assumed the position of the Brahmin/Mullah referenced to in Gurbani and being BYPASSED by the Gurus and Bhagats in their attempt to reach the Masses.

There was nothing "spiritual" about the Brahmin and there is nothing "spiritual" about the granthis and bhai jis or Jathedars...BUT they ahve assumed the exact same status in Gurmatt as the Brahmin..so today you have Bhai Jis in Groups of FIVE .."FEEDING OFF or Parasiting" on the Hard earned labour of Sikhs who think that by feeding these parasites their ancestors or dearly departed will be FED....clothing them will clothe them..giving them gold and gifts like IPhones will enable their dead to have Means of Wifi Connection in the AFTERLIFE !!! The CHINESE take this to a entirely differnet level..These days its the festival of teh Dead..and the Chinese are busy sedning off Mercedes, and BMWs and Boeing jets etc etc to their DEAD ( via burning exact replicas made of paper)....Some years back..a "brahmin" declared that one of the dead had visited him in a dream and complained that the Hundreds of thousands of Mercedes BMW and Jaguars Rolls Royces sent earlier were lying unused in Heaven because the Chinese had Neglected to send GAS STATIONS/Petrol Pumps over....and so now many send competed replicas of Caltex, Mobil, BP Gas Stations complete with Mini Market, food stalls, MCDonalds and KFCs. The Latest trend is to send these dead LUXURY CONDOS..fully furnished.. and having MAIDS, gardeners, Guards, Butlers etc THIS is a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR business..employing thousands, and a means of lucrative income to many thousands more...Never Mind the AIR Pollution caused by the mass burnings of luxury condos, mercedes Boeings and petrol stations and hyper markets.

Luckily (keep fingers crossed) this FRENZY to send good and services OVER the BORDER...hasnt yet reached US..we are content with FEEDING the FIVE parasites, donating some bhandeh and clothes bistrah etc only...BUT some are do getting there..Gurdwaras are being presented Rice Cookers, Microwaves, Fridges, Water coolers...as SIKHS have more welath to spend..and just the simple thalee and Drinking Glass look a bit too cheap for a Sikh who drove a mercedes while alive..Gurdwaras are being forced to put these "extras" in storage and may soon reach the stage of the RUMALLAH SITUATION !!! (Everyone is painfully aware fot eh overflowing rumallahs in all Gurdwaras).....and Gold Domes, Gold Palkis, Next will be Gold Stairs, Gold Bhandehs for karrah parshaad??? Maybe Gold Fans, Gold Airconditioners in Sukhasan Rooms ?? list is endless.. This is CAMOUFLAGED as "for teh GURU SGGS.." but its a Thinly VEILED effort to Courier these to the dead over the border as GURU NANAK JI saw at Kumbh Mela throwing water to the Sun...and In Asa Ki vaar Guru ji ahs already explained in Vaddihahyeh haath delal ke..pitreen siyaan their goods etc....THIS CANNOT be Taken as GURU JI ENDORSING the "goods reaching" there can it ?? Guru Ji is giving us an EXAMPLE.NOT ENDORSING the courier agents deeds....delaals and all...BUT those doing a "spiritual" interpretation might very well take this as Guru Ji endorsing the sending over of goods..but just sending the halaal ones...not stolen goods !!!(This is because the Spiritual ones are slyly EXPECTING the faithful to Hand over these Goods to THEM in this LIFETIME to enjoy...while "making empty promises" that they will deliver them over there !!! THATS how DERAS and the Bharamgyanis stock their deras with imported cars and gold beds and fly in private jets...

The GURUS came to DISPELL the DHUNDDH..the darkness surrounding RELIGION..and ensure the Sun Sooraj of Gyaan Knowledge shine through...
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The couriering of "Akahnd paaths and sehaj paaths"..Parrhhee bani da Phall vichhrree ROOH nu Deanna is mentioned in Ardass and is proof of the pudding we make daily thousnads of times the world over..and this provides a Lucarative source of income to many Hundreds of thosuands of Granthis and Pujarees - who mostly DONT DO any paath at all but simply take the FULL PAYMENT..and they are certianly not afraid of Vaddheyeha haath delal keh that Guru ji warns in asa Ki vaar !! Today GURBANI is multi billion dollar industry...Gurbani is being sold and milked for its commercial use..and the BASIS of this FRAUD is the "spiritual" interpreters/Group. Unknowingly or otherwise this group is helping to perpetuate this Fraud on unsuspecting Sikhs or Sikhs looking for an easy short cut !!!

GURBANI is for THIS LIFE TIME..for the LIVING to READ, Understand and imbibe...its fraudalent to say that Gurbani BENEFITS the DEAD..or thsoe who have crossed over and are EXPECTING the living to read it, pay for it to be read..so that they cna benefit form it when while LIVING they neglected it... Bhagt Kabir ji is directly alluding to this commercila venture when he questions ..HOW will you read Gurbani when you have two horns and are forced to plough the fields and eat grass ??..The Answer is SIMPLE - ask the Spiritually enlightened..and He will say..JUST PAY ME..and I will do an Entire 1429 page Akahnd Paath or sehaj paath and your departed BUFFALO DADDY will get the BENEFITS..GUARANTEED. Guru Nanak ji alluded to this too in the SHARAADH Shabads/Sakhi....where the person was FEEDING the Brahmins hoping for his departed daddy reborn as wolf to be fed via the Brahmins babbar !!

All these reincarnations and all the rest jingle bells...teeraths bbaths, sarovars ishnaans, and yatras, fasts, etc etc are smoke screens to keep the GYAAN covered....and SECRET from the MASSES as a way of control of their mindfs which the GURUS spent 250 years FREEING...
 

mandemeet

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Apr 5, 2012
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Mandemeet ji

Guru Fateh.

As you must have noticed that we are starting the project to interpret Anand in a collective manner here at SPN.

I would like you to be our torchbearer in this very important project. Therefore, I request you to give it a start by translating the First Pauri of Anand with your own understanding and we will all pitch in with ours. Hence in a collective way, we can make it easier for many people to understand Gurbani in this way rather than the current ones which are sprinkled with 'Biblical Pollen' which was not done in a deliberate fashion but happened organically as the earlier translators were all Christian missionaries.

When you read through the thread, you will notice that Aman ji has created a special section for this great project.

When do you think you will be able to post the first Pauri of Anand with your understanding?

I am certain that a well articulated and a knowledgeable person of Gurbani like you would love to be the major part of this project as a Sikh because we want and urge you to be. Sikhi demands this from all of us, especially from Gurbani scholars like you.

Your help with your wisdom and knowledge of Gurbani will be a gold mine for this project and we need you to be the first baton bearer for this Sikhi relay race for the sake of Sikhi.

I want to thank you in advance for that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
Tejwant Singh ji
Sat Sree Akaal ji

Thanks for your kind words, rather exceptional compliments, which I truly don’t deserve. Clearly it is an example of your having a big heart. Aman Singh ji’s and your idea is excellent, but unfortunately I will not be available. Very rarely, I come on this site or go on other Sikh sites. When I go, I avoid involving in discussions. My routine doesn’t allow me to go on internet for significant time, but the Gurbani discussion needs that. In the morning and before going to bed, I reflect on the Gurbani myself. It helps me. I felt to comment on Japjisahib ji’s one-liner preaching with his personal approach; unfortunately, it didn’t go well. Sometime the purpose of intersecting with people having different mind-sets doesn’t result in beneficial effect for spiritual objectives. No hard feelings. I feel Lucky Singh ji, Chaz Singh ji, Harmanpreet Singh ji, Ambersaya ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Japjisahib004 ji, you and many more can contribute good presentation for the project. I entreat forgiveness for my opting out. Thanks for the invitation.

Sincerely
mandemeet
 

japjisahib04

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Gyani Jee

I have gone through his interpretation. We will try to reach to the depth of the sabd, if some wise person don't hijack this wonderful thread and will permit us to maintain the decoram. What is the use of that gian, if it even didn't change your charactger 'ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥ I don't think we need this type of intervention on this form. Though I quote sometime one liner but I have never interpreted gurbani without reflecting rahao or its context.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Sahni Ji,

There are One Liners and there are one liners...


When a One-Liner reflects the entire SHABAD..its different....
BUT whats mostly always the case..one-liners are taken OUT OF CONTEXT to push a point through and when the RAHAO or the entire Shabad is referenced..the SUBTERFUGE is caught. THAT was the Original intention of BANNING/DISCOURAGING the one-liners being posted...because 99.9% of those one liners were subterfuge agenda backed and sans the Central theme Rahao tuk or essence of full shabad...Hence FULL SHABAD was requested to DETER this type of fraud upon our readers.

To be very frank, your ONE LINERS have never been found wanting when the full shabad or Rahao tuk is referenced. I have never found any fault there.

Regards

jarnail Singh
 
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