Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul | Page 5 | Sikh Philosophy Network
  • Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul

Feb 28, 2010
53
73
I am no expert in DG. But one thing for sure for some reason I believe it's all true .. Just a source of understanding mythological reference in Guru Granth Sahib .. I watched a lot of debates in DG and everytime people who believe in it come out on top with solid answers and not criticise it outmod ignorance
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
I am no expert in DG. But one thing for sure for some reason I believe it's all true .. Just a source of understanding mythological reference in Guru Granth Sahib .. I watched a lot of debates in DG and everytime people who believe in it come out on top with solid answers and not criticise it outmod ignorance
Truly am confused over this issue.
I can't seem to find answers for these questions.

Why the reason for chritopakans? Never really found a solid answer. Always long explanations. I thought gurmat was simple with simple answers so people like me can understand. Then am told am not a sant or brahmgiani.

Deh eh shiva... Why is rss/anti pushing this to become the indias anthem.
is "Shiva" referring to waheguru or the shiva. I mean these folks have never supported sikhs so why would they do this..

Bachitar natak why ? Guru Nanak went to the mountains to bring back the siddhs. Now why would Guru Gobind Singh be mediating in the mountains for so long when can me helping society. Some people have mentioned that the Shahedi of Guru Arjan dev ji is only mentioned while the shahedi of Guru Teg Bhahdur is explained, to save the hindu janneo and he has been given the tilte hind di chaddar. But about the other gurus? Did they not help hindustan.

Are there any references to muslims hero's like the hindu avataars in DG?

Most people claim reading the avtaar stories give bir ras. But weren't the avtaar stories available to the hindus before sikhi even came into being. The response is usually because they were in sanskrit normal people couldn't understand them. Was there not a single good hearted brahmin in benares that could relate these stories to the public before the invasions started. Get them pumped sort of to speak. Then again why are there so many reference to hindu hero's but none or maybe very little to muslim hero's. Guru ji had followers of both faiths. Also, why would guru ji reject these avtaars but then write big stories about them.

I mean these are some question that i never found answers to or maybe didnt look hard enough. But the people i have always talked to come back to say this Sant ji said this and that bramhgiani said that. Are you calling them wrong. We don't want to talk to you. I always thought once we take amirt we all become bhai. i mean when and where did these exclusive titles start.
 
Last edited:

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,667
14,279
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Truly am confused over this issue.
I can't seem to find answers for these questions.

Why the reason for chritopakans? Never really found a solid answer. Always long explanations. I thought gurmat was simple with simple answers so people like me can understand. Then am told am not a sant or brahmgiani.

Deh eh shiva... Why is rss/anti pushing this to become the indias anthem.
is "Shiva" referring to waheguru or the shiva. I mean these folks have never supported sikhs so why would they do this..

Bachitar natak why ? Guru Nanak went to the mountains to bring back the siddhs. Now why would Guru Gobind Singh be mediating in the mountains for so long when can me helping society. Some people have mentioned that the Shahedi of Guru Arjan dev ji is only mentioned while the shahedi of Guru Teg Bhahdur is explained, to save the hindu janneo and he has been given the tilte hind di chaddar. But about the other gurus? Did they not help hindustan.

Are there any references to muslims hero's like the hindu avataars in DG?

Most people claim reading the avtaar stories give bir ras. But weren't the avtaar stories available to the hindus before sikhi even came into being. The response is usually because they were in sanskrit normal people couldn't understand them. Was there not a single good hearted brahmin in benares that could relate these stories to the public before the invasions started. Get them pumped sort of to speak. Then again why are there so many reference to hindu hero's but none or maybe very little to muslim hero's. Guru ji had followers of both faiths. Also, why would guru ji reject these avtaars but then write big stories about them.

I mean these are some question that i never found answers to or maybe didnt look hard enough. But the people i have always talked to come back to say this Sant ji said this and that bramhgiani said that. Are you calling them wrong. We don't want to talk to you. I always thought once we take amirt we all become bhai. i mean when and where did these exclusive titles start.

Actually there are just NO ANSWERS..something called "SOLID ANSWERS" is a MYTH just as most of DG is a mYTH...answer a MYTH with a MYTH seems pretty solid ?? What you wrote about falling back on..Sant ji so and so said this..and baba ji so and so declared that..how dare you oppose it..is their most "solid" foundation based on MYTH again..smoke screens, name dropping, and PHYSICAL THREATS, bad vulgar language etc are ther other solid answers...

Just pick up a GUTKA of Sukhmani Sahib..and see the GRANDIOSE TITLES plastered all over its title page..inside pages..under each page as footnote.."SEWA Karvaii..by so and so Sant gyani Khalsa Vidya Maartand sri 108 so and so blah blah blah..when in Comparison in the SGGS..its just PLAIN MH:5...not even Guru Arjun Ji sahib (author)....simply a NUMBER 5 !!! The ORIGINAL AUTHOR prefers just a number..the COPYCAT printer using SANGAT GOLUCK MONEY no less..wants HIS OWN NAME and degrees and titles plastered all over !!! Back to square one..How DARE YOU do Nindiya of santbrahmgyani sri108 so and so >???NO SOLID ANSWERS..just mushy Bovine back-end expulsion (GOHA).BS.
 
Feb 28, 2010
53
73
Truly am confused over this issue.
I can't seem to find answers for these questions.

Why the reason for chritopakans? Never really found a solid answer. Always long explanations. I thought gurmat was simple with simple answers so people like me can understand. Then am told am not a sant or brahmgiani.

Deh eh shiva... Why is rss/anti pushing this to become the indias anthem.
is "Shiva" referring to waheguru or the shiva. I mean these folks have never supported sikhs so why would they do this..

Bachitar natak why ? Guru Nanak went to the mountains to bring back the siddhs. Now why would Guru Gobind Singh be mediating in the mountains for so long when can me helping society. Some people have mentioned that the Shahedi of Guru Arjan dev ji is only mentioned while the shahedi of Guru Teg Bhahdur is explained, to save the hindu janneo and he has been given the tilte hind di chaddar. But about the other gurus? Did they not help hindustan.

Are there any references to muslims hero's like the hindu avataars in DG?

Most people claim reading the avtaar stories give bir ras. But weren't the avtaar stories available to the hindus before sikhi even came into being. The response is usually because they were in sanskrit normal people couldn't understand them. Was there not a single good hearted brahmin in benares that could relate these stories to the public before the invasions started. Get them pumped sort of to speak. Then again why are there so many reference to hindu hero's but none or maybe very little to muslim hero's. Guru ji had followers of both faiths. Also, why would guru ji reject these avtaars but then write big stories about them.

I mean these are some question that i never found answers to or maybe didnt look hard enough. But the people i have always talked to come back to say this Sant ji said this and that bramhgiani said that. Are you calling them wrong. We don't want to talk to you. I always thought once we take amirt we all become bhai. i mean when and where did these exclusive titles start.
Just an answer to deh Siva bar... DG also quote : Mahadev ko kahaet sada shiv.. Nirankar ka ......

When guru ji made it clear then still arguing on the meaning to Siva is immature from my side
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
I respect the panth enough to respect what they revere.
Half of the panth also reveres dehdhari gurus, made up sants and brahmgyainis, fairy tales. Which side do your respect.

Illiterate population
Why would Guru ji be so biased against the sufi/muslim followers. By selecting only Avtaar stories. And disrespect mohammed by calling a king or arabia who cirumcised all the population.

Attempts to increase literacy
Thank God for this a million times. Not only did guru ji increase literacy but gave the common people a new voice against the brahmin practices.


Puranas are significant
yes, 100 % if your a Hindu/Brahmin. They references are only used to bring the one concept of god not to worship the vishnu.


Puranas are inaccessible
I did not need to find the puranas since i heard "Ik Onkar Satnaam".

Purpose of Dasam Granth
Who knows? Enough bir rass in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Soora su pachiynae (spritual and physical at the same time) sir tar thali ghali....(spritual and physical at the same time making it perfect food for a saint soldier)


They were already leaders. These guys don't need any lessons from Guru Granth Sahib even. They wrote it, lived it and died for it.
Here your playing heads and tails at the same time.


Shiva is the feminine. In Gurmukhi Shiv ji is not called Shiva but Shiv. Shiva is a feminine noun thus is referring to Shiv ji's wife, Bhagauti!
Am failing to understand you. Is guru ji asking for Shiv ji' wifes help.

The Shaheedi of Guru Arjan was less significant than the shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji. Where as Guru Arjan Dev ji was tortured to death by Jehangir because Jehangir was insecure about his brother rising to the throne, who had been blessed by Guru Arjun Dev ji. He saw Guru Arjan Dev ji as a political enemy. Yeah Jehangir has the muslim-kaffir complex too but not it was not big like Auranzeb's.
On the other hand, Guru Tegh Bahadur ji specifically, volunteered to confront Aurangzeb on the issue of religious persecution. His shaheedi was for dharam, not because he was Auranzeb's political enemy.

Guru Arjan Dev ji was our first shaheed on a grand scale to say its less significant is crazy.
And guru arjan dev ji did not die for dharam but for political reasons??

This has been answered in my linked post.
Didn't find any. Point them out to me please.

I answer this in my linked post. I would add: There were many. But at this time, it was an active effort accross the country to translate Sanskrit texts into native languages (and Brahmins are doing it since it's a Brahmin's job). Dasam Granth is part of it. You have to remember India has thousands of native languages. Punjabi with a script has just arrived on the scene though Guru Angad Dev ji. Previous Gurus has formalized it, Guru Gobind Singh ji just takes it a step further, and get Indian literature translated so that the language has some basis. Languages are lost if there is no literature available in the language. That's why the best way to keep Punjabi alive in your family is to have Punjabi literature for reading in the house! /Hint
So guru ji wrote the DG to keep punjabi language alive.


This is the same in Guru Granth Sahib. Those are avtaars of Akal Purakh (there is no difference between Akal Purakh and his Avtaars), I think they deserve more attention.
Then why reject them.

Har Har Mahadev! Hail to Shiv ji, the Ultimate God!
I highly doubt they are referring to waheguru. But for sure to shiv avtaar. Nothing wrong with that. that is their religion.


Am not bashing the hindu religion its fine the way it is. But its wrong to suggest sikhi is a part of it. That we need to find bir rass out of hindu avtaars.
 
Last edited:
Sep 21, 2010
44
79
Ganda Singh the famous Sikh historian in 1951 looked at the banis that were recited at the time of Khalsa creation at Anandpur in 1699. He looked at all the writings mentioning this event and any mention of banis recited. This was done chronologically scanning the writings on this issue.<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
<o:p> </o:p>
What we find is that upto 1769, we only find one mention of the banis recited at the Khande di Pahul ceremony. And the banis mentioned are Japuji and Anand. The first time any bani from Dasam Granth is mentioned is in 1811 when Sukha Singh, a granthi of Anandpur mentions Jaap and Swayyias but no mention of Chaupi. In the same year a Nirmala Sant Bhoop Singh writes a Granth named “Sudharam Marg Granth” in which for the first time ‘Chaupai’ is mentioned but it is not specified whether it is the one that is part of Charitaropakhyan or the one that is in the beginnig of Akal Ustat. However, a Farsi writer Khushwaqat Rai writing in the same year 1811 mentions only five Sawayyias that begin with “Srawag Sudh Samooh Sidhan ke …” and no other bani.
<o:p> </o:p>
This varying list becomes even more odd when in 1841, Rattan Singh Bhangoo in his ‘Prachin Panth Parkash mentions that Guru ji first recited the first pauri of Chandi di vaar we recite to begin Ardas, followed by 32 swayyias. This was followed by Chandi Charitar and then the first stanza (Tribhangi Chhand) of Bachittar Natak, “Khal khand bihandang khal dal khandang…” There is no mention of Jaap Sahib Chaupai. Bhangoo was as per his writing a Nihang and of course must have taken Amrit and known which banis were recited at the time of his initiation. If he does not mention Jaap Sahib or Chaupi of the present day set of five banis then how authentic could be the assertion to include the Dasam Granth banis.
<o:p> </o:p>
Kavi Santokh Singh the writer of Gurpartap Sooraj Granth, who also must have taken Amrit mentions only Japuji, five pauris of Anand, and Swayyias. There is no mention of Jaap Sahib or Chaupai.
<o:p> </o:p>
The mention of the currently popular five banis begins to be regularly and consistently mentioned after about 1860. The most popular writing in this regard is that of Nirmala writer Giani Gian Singh who wrote his Twarikh Guru Khalsa in 1882. Ever since then the detail of Khande di Pahul ceremony of 1699 has became the standard version that was later adopted by SGPC. However, Gyan Singh does not give any clue to any previous source to authenticate the details of the ceremony or the banis recited.
<o:p> </o:p>
Other writings during the twentieth century simply repeat his version. Thus, we find no evidence of Guru ji commanding to recite the currently prescribed Dasam Granth banis for the ceremony.
<o:p> </o:p>
Here are given the details of the actual quotes from the historical sources available. I have given the examples where the banis recited at Khande di Pahul ceremony are only mentioned. The Nitnem bani mention is left out for the moment.
<o:p> </o:p>
The first writer Kavi Sainapat wrote about the event but did not mention anything about the banis recited at the time of Khande di Pahul initiation. Sainapat was contemporary of tenth Guruji and he completed his book Gur Sobha a few years after the event and gives an eye witness account of the various events in Guruji’s life.
<o:p> </o:p>
After this, leaning mainly on Gur Sobha another writer Koer Singh Kalal wrote his Gurbilas book in 1751. He mentions the tenth Guruji recited some Mantar while standing very quietly and was therefore unable to identify whether it was some bani or just Gurmantar.
<o:p> </o:p>
Next in time is Sarup Das Bhalla who wrote ‘Mahim Parkash’ in 1776-77. Although he mentions the Khande di Pahul ceremony he does not make any mention of any Bani being recited.
<o:p> </o:p>
A contemporary of Sarup Das Bhalla is Kesar Singh Chhibber who was the son of Gurbax Singh Chibber, the Diwan of the Guru’s household. Therefore his writing in 1769 could be more authentic. He mentions that Guru ji recited Japu, and Anand bani.
<o:p> </o:p>
ਜਪੁ ਅਤੇ ਅਨੰਦ ਰਸਨੀ ਕਰਿ ਉਚਾਰੁ
“Japu ate Anand rasani kar uchaar”
“having recited ‘Japu’ and ‘Anand’ from his own mouth”
<o:p> </o:p>
Upto this time, there is no mention of any Dasam Granth Bani although by this time we begin to find the mention of Dasven Pathshah ka Granth etc.
<o:p> </o:p>
Bhai Sukha Singh Granthi of Anandpur wrote his ‘Gurbilas Patshahi 10’ in 1811 AD. It is in this Granth that we find for the first time the mention of a Dasam Granth banis being recited. The banis are Jaap and Swayyias (no mention of Chaupai).
<o:p> </o:p>
"ਪਠਿਓ ਪਾਠੁ ਜਪੁਜੀ ਅਰੁ ਜਾਪੁਜੀ ਆਪ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਅਨੰਦੁ"
“Pathio paath japuji ar Jaapji aap swayyia Anand.”
(He) recited the Japuji and Jaapji himself and swayyias and Anand”
<o:p> </o:p>
A Farsi writer Khushwaqat Rai also writes in 1811 in Farsi that Guru ji recited five swayyias and blew over the water being consecrated five times.
<o:p> </o:p>
"ਵ ਈਂ ਪੰਜ ਅਫ਼ਸੂਨਹਾਇ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਭਾਖਾ ਦਰ ਕੁਤਬਤ ਤਸਨੀਫ ਸਵੈਯਾ ਖ਼ੁਦ ਰਾ ਮੇ ਖਵਾਂਦ; ਵ ਦਮ ਕਰਦ"
“And these five swayyias he himnself wrote in Hindi language he himself recited; and blew (over the water being consecrated )
"ਵ ਕਬਿੱਤ ਸਵੈਯਾਹਾ ਮਜ਼ਕੂਰ ਈਂ ਅੰਦ:- ਕਬਿੱਤ ਸਵੈਯਾ ਅੱਵਲ - ਸਰਾਵਗ ਸੁਧ ਸਮੂਹ ਸਿਧਾਨ ਕੇ ਦੇਖ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਘਰਿ ਜੋਗਿ ਜਤੀ ਕੇ... ਵਗ਼ੈਰਾ।"
“And the Kabit Swayyias are:- First Swayyia – Srawag sudh samooh sidhaan ke dekh phirio ghar jog jati ke …… etc.”
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
One Niramala Sant Bhoop Singh also wrote a Granth in 1811 named ‘Sudharam Marg Granth’ and said that Guru ji recited Japuji, Anand, Swayyiey 10, and Chaupai. However there is no mention of full Jaap Sahib but only the Chhand of Jaap. This writing was published by one Sant Sampooran Singh in 1923 and someone took some parts of this writing and published it under the title of ‘Rehatnama Bahi Daya Singh.’
<o:p> </o:p>
Ratan Singh Bhangoo in Prachin Panth Parkash writes in 1841 that tenth Guru ji recited the first pauri of Chandi di Vaar (the one Sikh Ardaas begins with) followed by 32 Swayyias. This was followed by the Chandi Bani (Chandi Charitar ?). In the end the first stanza (Tribhangi Chhand) of Bachittar Natak “Khag khand bihandang, khal dal khandang….” was recited.
<o:p> </o:p>
Bhai Santokh Singh the Shiromani Kavi of Sikhs mentions that Japuji, Sawayyieys, five pauris of Anand were recited (No mention of Jaap Sahib or Chaupai).
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
In 1892 Gyani Gyan Singh mentions in his Twarikh Guru Khalsa for the first time all the five banis that are associated with the Amrit Sanskar in 1699. That is, the banis recited were Japuji, Japji, Swayyias 10, Chaupai, and Anand.
<o:p> </o:p>
Other writings written after or during this period seem to have just followed the trend set during this period.
<o:p> </o:p>
Ganda Singh is of the view that the swayyias from their internal evidence show that these were written after the 1699 baisakhi event because some of these address the hill Rajputs urging them to join the Khalsa recently created, this they refused. The 10 Swayyias (Srawag Sudh Samooh Sidhan ke.. ) were written right at the time Guruji invited the hill Rajput Rajas to urge them to become Khalsa. However, they made several excuses and refused. The reasoning that Guru ji gave in reply took the form of these Swayyias. Thus, we have the internal evidence:
<o:p> </o:p>
“Etey bhaye to kaha bhaye bhoopat
Ant ko nangey hi payen padharey”
<o:p> </o:p>
O kings, if you are so great what is the use, in the end you have go bare foot (after death)
<o:p> </o:p>
“Sri Bhagwan bhajey bin bhoopat,
Ek rati bin ek na lekhai”
<o:p> </o:p>
Without remembering God, o kings, your account would have nothing in it may just a tiny bit (after death).
<o:p> </o:p>
Gurbilas of Sukha Singh gives further evidence in this regard when he says, “ …all the hill rajas were invited near. The Guru addressed them, “Listen to me the masters of hills, come to the shelter of the Khalsa and enjoy the kingdom of all the land. On hearing their refusal Guruji then recited the Swayyias “Danav Dev fanind nisachar bhoot bhwikh bhawaan japaigey ……”
<o:p> </o:p>
Therefore these Swayyias were composed at this point in history, after the Khalsa had already been created. Hence were never recited on the baisakhi event.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thus we can see that the banis from Dasam Granth were not recited at the 1699 event. As Dasam Granth came into the picture in the second half of the eighteenth century these banis haphazardly crept in rather than as an ordained instruction by tenth Guruji. As we can see in the case of Rattan Singh Bhangoo, who proclaimed himself a Nihang, even he did not seem to give the Amrit banis as these are adopted for the last century or so. This set of banis became popular with writers like Gyani Gyan Singh, Panch Khalsa Diwan, and other Singh Sabha leaders.
<o:p> </o:p>
Humbly
Serjinder Singh
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,667
14,279
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
The Current issue of the Sikh bulletin gives a pretty credible account of the person responsible for the SRM 1945..... inclusion of raagmala..... (which had been EXCLUDED earlier)... and these banis. Read and decide for yourselves. GYANI GYAAN SINGHS written personal testimony about this "person" is also inlcuded so we cna arrive at an informed conclusion.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Featured Shabad

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹੱਲਾ ॥੫॥

ਗਰੀਬਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਜਿ ਖਿੰਜੈ ਦਾੜੀ
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਸਾੜੀ ॥੧॥

ਪੂਰਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ
ਅਪੁਨੇ ਦਾਸ ਕਉ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਪਰਗਟੀ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ॥
ਨਿੰਦਕ ਮੁਆ ਉਪਜਿ ਵਾਦ ਤਾਪ ॥੨॥

ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਜਿ...

SPN on Facebook

...
Top