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Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul

kds1980

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This is irrelevant as it is dealing with averages. Some men are weaker than the average woman and some women are stronger than the average man. Just because the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, does not mean that women are not capable of looking after themselves. I have also trained in martial arts, mainly aikido which uses an opponents strength against them. The only time I have had to use it in real life is when protecting MYSELF AGAINST MEN (notice the plural-it is intentional). To suggest a Singni needs a mans protection is an insult. Why do the armed forces accept women is they are so incapable of fighting?
Most of the world's armies have different physical standard for women e:g: For men to join as officer in India require to complete 5 km in 30 minutes but for women it is 40 minutes , means a man who complete the distance in 31 minutes is out while a woman complete in 39 minutes is in.is this equality? also frontline combat roles and hard physical jobs are still not given to them .Please remember with the advancement of technology the importance of physical power is getting lesser and lesser .It does not matter whether the person who is operating drone from control room is man or woman but still majority of armies of world have no drones




History is written by men therefore the Story of Kaur Shaheeds is not recouted and popularised. That does not mean they don't exist. My friend is currently doing an MA looking in to 'Her_story' rather than 'HIStory'. I will keep you updated of the stories and facts she uncovers in her research. Our very own Mai Harinder Kaur fought so bravely and lost so much. Does she not count? Do women like her mean nothing? Should she be forgotten? Should her story and the story of other countless women like her mean less than the fight fought by the men? What about the mothers who had their children strung around their necks in little pieces? Were they not standing up for the kaum? Were they not sacrificing and also making a stand? Where were the men then?
Do you want to say that historians ignored stories of kaur shaheeds because they were women? Sorry to say but not only sikhs but persian and european accounts also wrote about sikhs.Some Europeans were fascinated with sikhs .Why all these historians ignored role of women shaheeds ?Anyway I think people should stop reading history because a historian is always going to have caste , gender, language ,religion ethnicity.How will your friend feel if some caste say because your friend belong to so and so caste that's why she choose only woman from her caste.We need our researcher who belongs to our caste to do research( It is just an example)
 

findingmyway

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Even European history was written by men.

Now, on turning women in to sex objects: yes it's an issue. But we do this with men too but in a different way, which is not recognized as an issue!
A huge chunk of the DG also turns women into sex objects but you revere that as being written by your Guru!!! Men on the other hand are immortalised as saintly. Very equal!! lol

I don't want to keep this thread off course so have started a new one here
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39365-wiles-woman-research-statistics-represent-alternative.html#post175020
 
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justosh

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but Dasam Pitta ji may have written, therefore we cant say yes or no to it. As Khalsa we are to take the GUN from everything, even in bad times "Dukh Daru Sukh Rog Bhiya" yeah people are gonna say all this dasam granth is this and that.... but do not dismiss it if you have not understood it..

when one takes amrit, they are at the point where they say "GURU JI..... TAKE MY HEAD!!!! I NO LONGER NEED IT! DO AS YOU PLEASE" now tell me, is that not blind faith...... guru wanted that saint-solderer. just as lukysingh said the dasam granth is an inspiration.

when the Khalsa would go to battle Guru Gobind Singh Pitta ji would recite Jhagardang Nagardang, guess where from? Dasam Granth

link: Jhagardang Nagardang (Dasam Granth) - YouTube
 

findingmyway

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when one takes amrit, they are at the point where they say "GURU JI..... TAKE MY HEAD!!!! I NO LONGER NEED IT! DO AS YOU PLEASE" now tell me, is that not blind faith...... guru wanted that saint-solderer. just as lukysingh said the dasam granth is an inspiration.
Good point! People came forward to give their head to Akal Purakh and make a commitment to learning from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji and adhering to the principles within it. DG is not our Guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji made that clear. Sikhs were already saint soldiers long before the DG as proved by our history and the number of shaheeds there already were by the time Dasam Pita became Guru
 

findingmyway

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yeah , im not saying DG is our guru.... we know that.... but look to it as an inspiration to bring the soldier side out..... remember see the gun in EVERYTHING.
Haha! Your post made me laugh. Sorry but I would rather not see a gun thank you-they are scary and cause much harm. LOL sorry forgive my play on words-i think this thread needed some humour.

I do try and see the
ਗੁਣ (gunn) in everything but when that sthg is not inline with the teaching of SGGS then I cannot and should not see the gunn in it. Guruji instructs us to use our Bibek Buddhi to determine what is right or wrong.


Did Guru Nanak Dev ji need the inspiration of DG when he went to jail for the hill rajas? Did Guru Arjan Dev ji need the DG for inspiration before his shaheedi? How about Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? He didn't have the DG either-only SGGS. How about Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyal Das as well as many others? They all gave shaheedi long before the DG. They all were inspired by SGGS alone or are they not true saint-soldiers?


I forgot to comment on the comment about male spiritual and the female being temporal. IMHO I think this is a mistranslation by a male psyche. All humans both male and female are referred to in the female gender in Gurbani so the above conclusion does not make sense. The reasons for this is due to the culture at the time so to help people understand and had nothing to do with how different male and female Sikhs are. Gurbani should be approached without gender bias and instead focussing on the spiritual message for each and every PERSON (regardless of gender).
 
Apr 25, 2006
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A huge chunk of the DG also turns women into sex objects but you revere that as being written by your Guru!!! Men on the other hand are immortalised as saintly. Very equal!! lol
Jasleen ji,
I think you ought to actually read the material you criticize. It's critical of the behaviour of both sexes (see e.g. below). Or if you have already read it, are you saying we shouldn't criticize women for being ill-mannered at all?


ਚੌਪਈ ॥
Chaupaee


ਕਾਮ ਕਲਾ ਕਾਮਨਿ ਇਕ ਸ੝ਨੀ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੝ਰ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਅਤਿ ਗ੝ਨੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਪ੝ਤ੝ਰ ਨ ਆਗ੝ਯਾ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਮਾਤ ਕੋਪ ਚਿਤ ਠਾਨੈ ॥੧॥
There lived a lady called Kaamkala who was adept in Shastras and Vedas. Her son was very disobedient and she was always distressed.(1)


ਕ੝ਬ੝ਧਿ ਬਿਖੈ ਦਿਨ੝ ਰੈਨਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੋ ਦਰਬ੝ ਲ੝ਟਾਵੈ ॥ ਗ੝ੰਡਨ ਸਾਥ ਕਰੈ ਗ੝ਜਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਰਤ ਕ੝ਬਿਰਤਿ ਪਿਯਤ ਮਦ ਪਾਨਾ ॥੨॥
He was always drenched in base thinking and squandered his parent’s money. He constantly kept the company of the rogues and lived and drank wine by committing thefts.(2)


ਤਾ ਕੋ ਭ੝ਰਾਤ ਦ੝ਤਿਯ ਸ੝ਭ ਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਜੂਪ ਰਹਿਤ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਦ੝ਰਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਸੌ ਨੇਹ ਮਾਤ ਕੋ ਰਹੈ ॥ ਯਾ ਕੌ ਬੇਗਿ ਸੰਘਾਰੋ ਚਹੈ ॥੩॥
His other brother was very suave and was devoid of all the vices. The mother loved him but wanted to kill the other one.(3)


ਝਕ ਦਿਵਸ ਜਬ ਸੋ ਘਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਸੋਤ ਛਾਪਰੀ ਮਾਝ ਤਕਾਯੋ ॥ ਟਟਿਆ ਦ੝ਵਾਰ ਆਗਿ ਦੈ ਦਈ ॥ ਸ੝ਤ ਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਜਰਾਵਤ ਭਈ ॥੪॥
One day when he had come home, she saw him sleeping in the straw- hut. At the entrance ofthe hut, she lit a fire, and killed him while asleep.(4)


ਮਾਤ ਪੂਤ ਕੌ ਪ੝ਰਥਮ ਜਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਰੋਇ ਰੋਇ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਸ੝ਨਾਯੋ ॥ ਆਗਿ ਲਗਾਇ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੌ ਧਾਈ ॥ ਮੂਰਖ ਬਾਤ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਾਈ ॥੫॥
She awoke the (other) son and then cried incessantly to make the world known. She started to fetch water and the foolish people did not fathom the trickery.(5)(1)



ਇਤਿ ਸ੝ਰੀ ਚਰਿਤ੝ਰ ਪਖ੝ਯਾਨੇ ਤ੝ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੝ਰੇ ਮੰਤ੝ਰੀ ਭੂਪ ਸੰਬਾਦੇ ਇਕ ਸੌ ਸਤਾਸੀਵੋ ਚਰਿਤ੝ਰ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤ੝ ਸ੝ਭਮ ਸਤ੝ ॥੧੮੭॥੩੫੭੧॥ਅਫਜੂੰ॥
187th Parable of Auspicious Chritars Conversation of the Raja and the Minister, Completed With Benediction. (187)(3569)


Did Guru Nanak Dev ji need the inspiration of DG when he went to jail for the hill rajas? Did Guru Arjan Dev ji need the DG for inspiration before his shaheedi? How about Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? He didn't have the DG either-only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How about Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyal Das as well as many others? They all gave shaheedi long before the DG. They all were inspired by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone or are they not true saint-soldiers?
All men thus leading up to a Granth to inspire men to make the Shaheedi.


I forgot to comment on the comment about male spiritual and the female being temporal. IMHO I think this is a mistranslation by a male psyche. All humans both male and female are referred to in the female gender in Gurbani so the above conclusion does not make sense.
Humans are female relative to God as the male.

What is referred to the male and female is once again:
The female in Brahmn is matter, form. The male is consciousness, formless. Think of life as the copulation between male penetrating the female, conscious awareness penetrating the matter.
The female, the material, is the wordly, is Maya (She is not evil just very mesmerizing) And Madhav, Maya's husband, Hari is the male, conscious entity sitting inside of us, he is the Antaryami, in dweller. And since as a species we are so attuned to the the world, the female, Maya (and disconnected from consciousness, male, Hari), Guru Granth Sahib tells us to do Simran, and connect with the male, our husband. As you know, many authors describe Hari as their husband, where they themselves are His bride...
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/32939-dasam-granth-bani-recited-khande-di-4.html#post174970

I don't appreciate your treatment of my posts. Please read them before you respond.
 
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Luckysingh

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Did Guru Nanak Dev ji need the inspiration of DG when he went to jail for the hill rajas? Did Guru Arjan Dev ji need the DG for inspiration before his shaheedi? How about Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? He didn't have the DG either-only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How about Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyal Das as well as many others? They all gave shaheedi long before the DG. They all were inspired by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone or are they not true saint-soldiers?
That is not an approprate comment and a very poor argument.
It is talking about different time scales completely. I'm not the sort to be normally correcting others as you may be aware, but you can't be serious here can you ?
This is like blaming president Kennedy or Nixon for todays recession and the Iraq war!!! -They are different periods of time and totally unrelated!!

You mentioned Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, now do you remember exactly what he gave his shaheedi for ?
Was it for followers of Nanak or sikhs ? OR was it the Kashmir hindu pandits ?
If it was't the hindu pandits then why is he referred to as 'hind di chadur'
You don't need answer the questions as the proceeding questions have (answered it themselves!!)

Guru Tegh Bahadurs decapitated head was lying and getting kicked about on the street for days/weeks !!
Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even more upset and annoyed that his father's head was not recognized and was tossed to and fro by passers by.

Hence, this was another turning point and reason for him to give us ALL the dastaar and be recognized.

I made this point because the shaheedis are all done for differing reasons and needs. They are NOT because the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji instructs them, because does it ??
We should not try and use such sacred shaheedis as reasons to back up our foolish arguments and assessments of DG.
Their shaheedis are way too big and huge for us to be using for petty arguments.
 

Ishna

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That is not an approprate comment and a very poor argument.
It is talking about different time scales completely. I'm not the sort to be normally correcting others as you may be aware, but you can't be serious here can you ?
This is like blaming president Kennedy or Nixon for todays recession and the Iraq war!!! -They are different periods of time and totally unrelated!!

You mentioned Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, now do you remember exactly what he gave his shaheedi for ?
Was it for followers of Nanak or sikhs ? OR was it the Kashmir hindu pandits ?
If it was't the hindu pandits then why is he referred to as 'hind di chadur'
You don't need answer the questions as the proceeding questions have (answered it themselves!!)

Guru Tegh Bahadurs decapitated head was lying and getting kicked about on the street for days/weeks !!
Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even more upset and annoyed that his father's head was not recognized and was tossed to and fro by passers by.

Hence, this was another turning point and reason for him to give us ALL the dastaar and be recognized.

I made this point because the shaheedis are all done for differing reasons and needs. They are NOT because the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji instructs them, because does it ??
We should not try and use such sacred shaheedis as reasons to back up our foolish arguments and assessments of DG.
Their shaheedis are way too big and huge for us to be using for petty arguments.
See now, I'm of the other opinion, that, from at least Guru Hargobind's time Sikh armies were around WITHOUT the DG and still functioned just fine.

Why, if the DG is so critically important for Khalsa, was it NOT included as one of Guru Gobind Singh's instructions?

But hey, if you want to believe in a book which your 10th Guru didn't command you to believe in, good luck with that.

If you want to continue the "wasn't required in that time" argument it could be said that the whole idea of bana is likewise out of it's appropriate "time scale". Seriously, who needs a kirpan - now Sikhs need handguns!

But of course, that doesn't fit with the idealistic model you're trying to work with.

Bhagat: There are many, many, many more stories against women than men in the DG. Count them and let me know because I CBF finding the proper reference anymore.

It's a useless discussion. It's weird that devout Sikhs seem to insist the religion requires PAGES of misogynistic propaganda to warn it's male soldiers (fighting just what war exactly in this "time scale"??) of the wiles and dangers of woman's terrible sexuality.
 
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Apr 25, 2006
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Ishna ji,
Ishna said:
See now, I'm of the other opinion, that, from at least Guru Hargobind's time Sikh armies were around WITHOUT the DG and still functioned just fine.
LuckySingh said:
Hence, this was another turning point and reason for him to give us ALL the dastaar and be recognized.
Now, contrary to what many think. It was Guru Hargobind Sahib who requested Baba Buddha ji to place on his head a Royal mughal turban with plume, rather than the traditional, saintly dress of the seli-topi, triangular cap. I just wanted to clear that before we proceed. The tradition of turban-wearing amongst Sikhs starts from Guru Hargobind Sahib.

He also kept a small retinue of warriors as his personal bodyguards. This is far from an army. Guru hargobind Sahib had small-scale clashes and duels with Painde Khana and the like, nothing like Guru Gobind Singh ji's Battle of Bhangani.

Ishna said:
Why, if the DG is so critically important for Khalsa, was it NOT included as one of Guru Gobind Singh's instructions?
Because Khalsa is separate identity than Sikh. Sikh is a more broad term, a heterogeneous mixture. Khalsa is homogeneous. Khalsa was Guru Sahib's army. Waheguru (Guru Gobind Singh ji) ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh as we say today.

Ishna said:
But of course, that doesn't fit with the idealistic model you're trying to work with.
You are right the idealistic models are flawed and do not reflect history.

The Sikh to Khalsa transition which defines a Sikh, and Sikhism today did not exist then.

Ishna said:
Count them and let me know because I CBF finding the proper reference anymore.
CBF?

We'll have to go through the Chatritropakhyan one by one to have a proper discussion of it. We need some quality dialogue to explore the themes and dynamics in charitropakhyan.

Lashing out against it as misogynistic or as misandric isn't a solution. Because these documents were written in a different environment where there were different obligations placed on men and women, different things expected of them. In fact, this is a whole another topic, and a very interesting one at that. But here, in this thread, I think we are doing significant harm to the discussion on Dasam Granth by constantly talking about gender issues, myself included.
 

Luckysingh

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I'm not sure why all this lashing out at each other about an issue that isn't going to get resolved any sooner.
We ALL accept the Adi Granth as our Guruji.
Some of us accept parts if not all of the Dasam granth as an Additional source only.

There is no one to my knowledge on here that is accepting DG as an alternative to Adi Granth!
If they were, then we have very good reasons to lash out.

Am I really crazy because I find that the words of Dasam Pita in the DG are giving me much more solid inspiration to move forward and take amrit ??
No, seriously, Am I really getting a bit nutty thinking this way that I may harm the religion instead of embracing the khalsa ??

I just do NOT understand how you can totally reject ALL of it when it contains the banis required for amrit - This is what the thread is about and that is my major concern, not the charitropakhyan.
 

Luckysingh

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After the very many 'anti' respones to DG that came on this thread and other threads last week, I went on further and watched videos and katha including as many anti-DG campaigns all this week.

So, what did I learn and what conclusion did I come to ?
Lets put it this way.

Firstly, every SIKH is a LEARNER.- We are all aware of that.
Secondly, It is our DUTY to LEARN from everything that is around us.
With all the educatonal material, sikhi teachings, interactions and being with the sangat, we should look to try and find what is gurmat that may be hidden deep inside there somewhere.
This means that absolutely everything has to be looked into a little deeper to find the truth and the value to which gurmat can be applied and also to how it may itself be a gurmat application.

When I say everything, I mean all the bad and what we may perceive as corrupt!and filth even !!
For example- EVEN a HOOKER!!!(not talking about charitaropakhyian)
- This week we read and learned about the case where two sikh priests raped a hooker in Scotland.- This was shocking as well as embarassing news.
BUT- we still looked into the hooker victim a little deeper and could see and feel that she was a victim to a very UNJUST and UN-GURMAT act.
Thus because of this UN-GURMAT we could see the actual true Gurmat within her in this manner since this UN-GURMAT was higlighted and exposed.
As sikhs and humans, we feel for the unjust treatment she received. It doesn't matter if she were a hooker and classed as street 'scum'.
We could actually see past this first brick wall of surface labelling
because of the damage done to her.

In this case the 2 offenders or the 2 wrongs made you see the ONE right.
Sometimes we have to have something to help us see past the exposed surrounding walls on every surface such as the 'hooker' label on this surface.

In the same manner my week of researching a little on DG has only made me see past the surface walls made apparent. It has helped me see the Gurmat within the DG, the same gurmat that can be applied to every living sikh.

Infact, my love for the Dasam Pita has never been stronger. I probably feel more inclined and encouraged to start taking serious steps towards amrit than ever before.
I don't think I have ever felt so strong about wanting to become a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

The adi-granth is the only accepted and given living Guru by all means. But anything else with even a tiny message or sacred quotes by the same guru whether it is a recently discovered pothi or sakhi, is still regarded as being of very high order and value on the way of teaching some gurmat.

As sikhs, we have to accept that gurmat is not just confined to the adi-granth but it is something we have to find and dig out of everything around us.
This is the only way that we can start to maximise our daily applications of gurmat behaviour.

Even the pledge that Ambarsariaji started on another thread, makes me realise that I have to see the truth and gurmat within ALL of us sikhs. It doesn't matter if they are AKJ, sehajdhari, Kukay,Naamdhari, radhasoami,nirankari, afro-carribean or whatever, we have to see way past all the surfaces and walls.

I said earlier, that when I listen to so and so's Katha or anything at the gurdwara or elsewhere, I simply take in what I find appropriate and applicable to gurmat.
Quite often, they will be critical of another sant or bhai saab in conversation, or they may get a little carried away with 'me, me, me EGO or I do, I did, I always....'
None of this makes any difference to me , as I simply don't take it in.
Some will get up and walk away taking this as their only judgement of the sant or bhai saab. However, I try very hard to not even judge their enlightenment if any and just take away and remember the good and gurmat related words that were spoken.


I really hope that all of you that convince yourselves about being on the anti-DG wagon, may soon come to realise that this behaviour is not what sikhs are about. We are supposed to be better than that and if we simply reject without even making efforts to try and find the gurmat within is just plain ignorance in my opinion.
 

Ambarsaria

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Luckysingh ji thanks for your post. I believe you have a heart of gold and big heart at that. Your approach is good.

In such an approach I do believe it is appropriate to keep eyes open for real life and real practical activities in the world. Do things happen all with good intentions and all is good? It is good to believe but practically it may or may not be so. Sikhism was under attack and formed out of such attacks by the Muslim invaders. When they were done with not everyone became a Sikh follower or lover of Sikhism. There were people (e.g. Brahmins in Hinduism) whose shops were basically shut down for their mis-leading and exploitation of the masses of the times. Did they just forget what our Guru ji said about all this including references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Did they like how each of the person's/"their customer" was given another view of freedom and self respect by Sikhism? The answers to such simply lead to the possible second more sinister phase in Sikhism and that is its absorption through so called peaceful and peace/shanti loving people. Without being bad about them or go down to their level in reciprocity it is important to be not totally gullible. Study all with open mind. But don't be mislead if certain works have been assigned to Guru ji's names and close your eyes and start defending the good and bad in such.

True or not the following an excerpt from another post at spn,
Role of another Gang of Nirmalas in Patna

During the time of Surat Singh’s arrival in Amritsar, around 1770-75 another gang of Nirmalas became active in Patna. There under auspices of nirmalias Nawal Singh, Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh granthi the pujaris started composition of books. These Nirmalias composed Bachittar Natak (now called Dasam Granth,ironically).

(Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha’s entry regarding Sukha Singh: Granthi of Harmndir Patna Sahib who arranged Sukhmana bani, etc., and created
Dasam granth type treatise. Bhai Kahan Singh also writes that Sarab Loh Granth is also a composition of this Sukha Singh.)

Actually Dasam Granth was created in 1775-83; According to Charles Wilkin(1781) its first script was Nagri (Hindi and Sanskrit). Many decades later it came to Punjab. It was created as a book in 1897. This was all a conspiracy of Nirmalias and the English. First of all in 1810 Malcolm started disseminating it. He indicated the basis of this as Colbrook spring which Nirmala Atma Ram created as a composition. Dasam Granth was also in futile attempted to be linked to Bhai Mani Singh ji. The basis for which was a false letter (this letter has other errors of dates, etc.). Then copies were also made and false dates were supplanted to make it appear and be misleading as “old”.

After this a reform committee (1897-1902) approval of this was fabricated. In actual fact this committee was a conspiracy of Khem Singh Bedi (death 1905) and the English. Khem Singh Bedi is the same person who used the same Pujaris to issue an edict against the leader of Singh Sabha movement. Khem Singh Bedi was a special agent of the Government; he was awarded an assignment of 28272 acres by the crown, in 1893 he was made member of the Punjab Council and was given many positions and decorations.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-rehat-maryada/39369-the-truth-about-maryada-darbar-sahib.html
I don't have too much interest in this subject at personal level and at the stage of my life I am at. I simply post that we need to be scholarly and perhaps have healthy discussion on authentication rather than simply assume authorship. It does not mean to destroy a writing but simply to read these in right context. There is a big difference as recognition of authorship generates substantial influence on how we view, read or absorb a given writing.

I would love if you want to start a thread say in terms of authentication of these works. I probably would not contribute much but perhaps will learn. For example I had no clue about all the fuss till I joined spn. Moreover I did not know anything about the background identified in the above excerpt.

Let references and material be posted for or against regarding authorship and we perhaps can all learn.

Regards and thanks for your posts.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Apr 25, 2006
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I am of the opinion that we learn very little about the material when discussing the authenticity of it. Studying the material and studying the authenticity, lead to very different discussions. Many historians question Socrates' existence but to study his philosophy you will have to set that question aside and just read and contemplate his philosophy. Dasam Granth maybe a similar example for members here. We ought to look at the philosophy and imagery and study it, and perhaps even make comparisons with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where necessary.

For example, the Hari of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the protective figure, the Gopal/Herder, who protects his devotees,e.g. assuming the form of Narsingh to protect Prahalad. He sets an example to follow as Sri Ram, the Purushotam, superior man. He holds the delicate lotus and is wearing a garland of flowers.

The Mahakal of Dasam Granth is a scary figure who will destroy evil. He assumes scary forms, with weapons, wearing garland made of skulls and body parts. Also the focus shifts to the feminine, Devi, in Dasam Granth, where her exploits are described in detail using powerful metaphors like "The Demons were struck by her like towering minarets struck by lightning". This is one of my favourite from Chandi Di Vaar:
ਚੰਡੀ ਰਾਕਸਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਵਾਹੀ ਦੈਤ ਨੂੰ ॥
चंडी राकसि खाणी वाही दैत नूं ॥
She struck the demon with that Chandi, the devourer of demons (that is the sword).

ਕੋਪਰ ਚੂਰਿ ਚਵਾਣੀ ਲੱਥੀ ਕਰਗ ਲੈ ॥
कोपर चूरि चवाणी ल्थी करग लै ॥
It broke the skull and face into pieces and pierced through the skeleton.

ਪਾਖਰ ਤੁਰਾ ਪਲਾਣੀ ਰੜਕੀ ਧਰਤਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
पाखर तुरा पलाणी रड़की धरति जाइ ॥
And it further pierced through the saddle and caparison of the horse, and struck on the earth supported by the Bull (Dhaul).

ਲੈਦੀ ਅਘਾ ਸਿਧਾਣੀ ਸਿੰਗਾਂ ਧਉਲ ਦਿਆਂ ॥
लैदी अघा सिधाणी सिंगां धउल दिआं ॥
It moved further and struck the horns of the Bull.

ਕੂਰਮ ਸਿਰ ਲਹਿਲਾਣੀ ਦੁਸਮਨ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੈ ॥
कूरम सिर लहिलाणी दुसमन मारि कै ॥
Then it struck on the Tortoise supporting the Bull and thus killing the enemy.
Subtle differences, but they lead to different emotions. Gruesome descriptions of a deity and his/her acts, lead to Bir Ras, which is mix of anger, andrenaline, rush, etc. Whereas, peaceful depictions lead to well.. peace, Sant Ras. This argument cannot be dismissed.

The sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh ji in Naina Devi and the historical artifacts like Ashtbhuja, and the rituals of weapon worship, are a strong support in favour of Guru Sahib being the writer of at least part of the book. Today we bow in front of weapons and Guru Granth Sahib. This comes from Guru Gobind Singh ji himself.

The fact that so many Sikhs and especially Nihangs revere the text (to the point where they give GGS and DG equal authority) lead me to conclude that these writings are to be studied if we want to study Sikhism because they resonate with the warrior-monks. They teach us something about Sikhism that cannot be learnt from an older text like Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
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Bhagat Singh ji I have been thinking for a while to post a calm collected rebuttal. Here is a response with as much calm as I could muster. There was lot of “bir-ras”/adrenalin I had to suppress.
I am of the opinion that we learn very little about the material when discussing the authenticity of it.
Oh really! The teacher does not matter it is just the book!
We ought to look at the philosophy and imagery and study it, and perhaps even make comparisons with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where necessary.
Why don’t just study everything in reference to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Of course you can but it is where you later slip in “Authenticity” or implied “Authorship” that things fall apart. You want to have your cake and eat it too within one post if at that.
Subtle differences, but they lead to different emotions. Gruesome descriptions of a deity and his/her acts, lead to Bir Ras, which is mix of anger, andrenaline, rush, etc. Whereas, peaceful depictions lead to well.. peace, Sant Ras. This argument cannot be dismissed.
You can get the same from watching Ram-Lilah where Hanuman fights with the so called 12 headed king of Sri Lanka. Plenty of Bir Ras! There are many novels, stories available to get your heart pumping including when in passionate embrace the Kamasutra for that extra Bir Ras.

Brother you are confusing inner strength with external manifestations. There was plenty of Bir Ras in Gur Arjan Dev ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Taru ji and many others who laid the foundation of Sikhism without any access to such mentioned Dasam Granth.
The fact that so many Sikhs and especially Nihangs revere the text (to the point where they give GGS and DG equal authority) (1) lead me to conclude that these writings are to be studied if we want to study Sikhism because they resonate with the warrior-monks. (2) They teach us something about Sikhism that cannot be learnt from an older text like Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
(1). I recognize that you are trying to make logical deductions. Such are made on overwhelming evidence or body of association. Overwhelming body of Sikhs don’t associate with Dasam Granth and as previously posted the dubious and nefarious Nirmalas associated with its origin. Why would you ignore that and just deduce from a smaller body of support for your proposition. Good at word-smithing but pretty pathetic at logic deduction.

(2). Here I assume you clearly are violating the fundamental tenents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being the last of the Guru jis and nothing forward to compare or even consider against or put beside.

I know you like to write tongue-in-cheek but this is bordering on pathetic if I may say so both in the logic and so called scholarly line of thinking implied.

Sat Sri Akal.
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Apr 25, 2006
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Bhagat Singh ji I have been thinking for a while to post a calm collected rebuttal. Here is a response with as much calm as I could muster. There was lot of “bir-ras”/adrenalin I had to suppress.
Ambarsaria ji,
I always knew you had a warrior nature. ;)
I appreciate that. I understand the anger. I look at it this way. My fellow Sikhs (and humans) are not trying to insult anything I find sacred, they are simply acting on their acquired beliefs. They are saying what they know best. Learn what you can from them, and if they are willing to learn, teach them.
Oh really! The teacher does not matter it is just the book!
The teacher matters their books, their teachings also matter. They are one and the same. We come to know the teacher through the teachings and teachings through the teacher.

Do you know we can discuss the authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib also but I don't find you posting on the authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib. It's because you are interested in the teachings in it, and not the authenticity of it. Now it would not be logical for me to assume you don't care about the teachers who contributed to it.

You can get the same from watching Ram-Lilah where Hanuman fights with the so called 12[ten-] headed king of Sri Lanka. Plenty of Bir Ras! There are many novels, stories available to get your heart pumping including when in passionate embrace the Kamasutra for that extra Bir Ras.
You have got it! Part of Dasam Granth is exactly this! It's education and media as well as spirituality and philosophy.

1 Illiterate population
Remember, back then in the Gurus times they did not have what you mentioned, none of it. We are talking about illiterate farmers, carpenters, and other lower caste members here who would not have access, nor have the time to become literate of their own texts. (The upper castes tended to be more literate,
esp. some Brahmins who only did that - study texts)
Today we can step into a library and read. That is because we have time, and we as a culture are focused on literacy. This was not the case back then. Only Brahmins were focused on literacy. Education dwindled as we went down the caste system. The same is true today but to a lesser extent. It is illogical to apply today's standards to ancient history.

2 Attempts to increase literacy
Remember the attempts to increase literacy was a part of Sikhism since Guru Angad Dev ji, who created the Gurmukhi script and started small learning centres. Guru Amardas ji also appointed members to attend to areas where he couldn't. By the time of Guru Arjan Dev ji, we already had scholars like Bhai Gurdas. Guru Hargobind Sahib ji started having Dhadhis in his court, who would tell stories from Puranas, the Gurus, other warriors, etc. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji keeps company with Brahmins, some of whom go with him to their martyrdom. He also gets Sikhs to attain higher education. In the same tradition Guru Gobind Singh ji sends Sikhs to "universities" of the time, located in Benares and regions like it, who are today called Nirmalas.


3 Puranas are significant
Puranic tales were a big part of the education back then. That was their history, spirituality, philosophy, (inter and intra)religious lesson bundled together. (There was also math, language (Sanskrit) and medicine with the arts, this is irrelevant to our discussion though.) A read of Guru Granth Sahib should tell you how important it is to have knowledge of Vishnu and Bhagwad Puran. It relies a lot on Puranic tales to make the spiritual as well as philosophical and theological points clear.

4 Puranas are inaccessible
Puranas are not in the native language of Punjab and nearby regions, they are written in Sanskrit. Plus there are so many of them... not to mention each one is long! You would have to devote your entire life to learning the language and reading through all of them, it's a Brahmins (scholar's) job to study these.

5 Purpose of Dasam Granth
Part of Dasam Granth attempts to educate the natives of Punjab by making the Puranas accessible. They are shortened and translated, even paraphrased for the audience. And as it does that, it also emphasizes descriptions of war, so strike Bir Ras in the reader. Some banis even say "if you read this you will become a warrior". Combine this with the contributions of the previous Gurus and voila!

Brother you are confusing inner strength with external manifestations. There was plenty of Bir Ras in Gur Arjan Dev ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Taru ji and many others who laid the foundation of Sikhism without any access to such mentioned Dasam Granth.
They were already leaders. These guys don't need any lessons from Guru Granth Sahib even. They wrote it, lived it and died for it.

To conclude this post, many Sikhs revere Dasam Granth, you and I may not but I respect the panth enough to respect what they revere. And I will always try to understand why people revere the things they do, as long as I am alive. That is my nature.

Cheer up

PS I am wondering have you read the Kaam Sutra?
 

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