You are however, imagining condescension where there is none.
Most of the world's armies have different physical standard for women e:g: For men to join as officer in India require to complete 5 km in 30 minutes but for women it is 40 minutes , means a man who complete the distance in 31 minutes is out while a woman complete in 39 minutes is in.is this equality? also frontline combat roles and hard physical jobs are still not given to them .Please remember with the advancement of technology the importance of physical power is getting lesser and lesser .It does not matter whether the person who is operating drone from control room is man or woman but still majority of armies of world have no dronesThis is irrelevant as it is dealing with averages. Some men are weaker than the average woman and some women are stronger than the average man. Just because the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, does not mean that women are not capable of looking after themselves. I have also trained in martial arts, mainly aikido which uses an opponents strength against them. The only time I have had to use it in real life is when protecting MYSELF AGAINST MEN (notice the plural-it is intentional). To suggest a Singni needs a mans protection is an insult. Why do the armed forces accept women is they are so incapable of fighting?
Do you want to say that historians ignored stories of kaur shaheeds because they were women? Sorry to say but not only sikhs but persian and european accounts also wrote about sikhs.Some Europeans were fascinated with sikhs .Why all these historians ignored role of women shaheeds ?Anyway I think people should stop reading history because a historian is always going to have caste , gender, language ,religion ethnicity.How will your friend feel if some caste say because your friend belong to so and so caste that's why she choose only woman from her caste.We need our researcher who belongs to our caste to do research( It is just an example)History is written by men therefore the Story of Kaur Shaheeds is not recouted and popularised. That does not mean they don't exist. My friend is currently doing an MA looking in to 'Her_story' rather than 'HIStory'. I will keep you updated of the stories and facts she uncovers in her research. Our very own Mai Harinder Kaur fought so bravely and lost so much. Does she not count? Do women like her mean nothing? Should she be forgotten? Should her story and the story of other countless women like her mean less than the fight fought by the men? What about the mothers who had their children strung around their necks in little pieces? Were they not standing up for the kaum? Were they not sacrificing and also making a stand? Where were the men then?
A huge chunk of the DG also turns women into sex objects but you revere that as being written by your Guru!!! Men on the other hand are immortalised as saintly. Very equal!! lolNow, on turning women in to sex objects: yes it's an issue. But we do this with men too but in a different way, which is not recognized as an issue!
Good point! People came forward to give their head to Akal Purakh and make a commitment to learning from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji and adhering to the principles within it. DG is not our Guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji made that clear. Sikhs were already saint soldiers long before the DG as proved by our history and the number of shaheeds there already were by the time Dasam Pita became Guruwhen one takes amrit, they are at the point where they say "GURU JI..... TAKE MY HEAD!!!! I NO LONGER NEED IT! DO AS YOU PLEASE" now tell me, is that not blind faith...... guru wanted that saint-solderer. just as lukysingh said the dasam granth is an inspiration.
Haha! Your post made me laugh. Sorry but I would rather not see a gun thank you-they are scary and cause much harm. LOL sorry forgive my play on words-i think this thread needed some humour.yeah , im not saying DG is our guru.... we know that.... but look to it as an inspiration to bring the soldier side out..... remember see the gun in EVERYTHING.
Jasleen ji,A huge chunk of the DG also turns women into sex objects but you revere that as being written by your Guru!!! Men on the other hand are immortalised as saintly. Very equal!! lol
All men thus leading up to a Granth to inspire men to make the Shaheedi.Did Guru Nanak Dev ji need the inspiration of DG when he went to jail for the hill rajas? Did Guru Arjan Dev ji need the DG for inspiration before his shaheedi? How about Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? He didn't have the DG either-only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How about Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyal Das as well as many others? They all gave shaheedi long before the DG. They all were inspired by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone or are they not true saint-soldiers?
Humans are female relative to God as the male.I forgot to comment on the comment about male spiritual and the female being temporal. IMHO I think this is a mistranslation by a male psyche. All humans both male and female are referred to in the female gender in Gurbani so the above conclusion does not make sense.
The female in Brahmn is matter, form. The male is consciousness, formless. Think of life as the copulation between male penetrating the female, conscious awareness penetrating the matter.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/32939-dasam-granth-bani-recited-khande-di-4.html#post174970The female, the material, is the wordly, is Maya (She is not evil just very mesmerizing) And Madhav, Maya's husband, Hari is the male, conscious entity sitting inside of us, he is the Antaryami, in dweller. And since as a species we are so attuned to the the world, the female, Maya (and disconnected from consciousness, male, Hari), Guru Granth Sahib tells us to do Simran, and connect with the male, our husband. As you know, many authors describe Hari as their husband, where they themselves are His bride...
That is not an approprate comment and a very poor argument.Did Guru Nanak Dev ji need the inspiration of DG when he went to jail for the hill rajas? Did Guru Arjan Dev ji need the DG for inspiration before his shaheedi? How about Guru Tegh Bahadur ji? He didn't have the DG either-only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How about Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyal Das as well as many others? They all gave shaheedi long before the DG. They all were inspired by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone or are they not true saint-soldiers?
See now, I'm of the other opinion, that, from at least Guru Hargobind's time Sikh armies were around WITHOUT the DG and still functioned just fine.That is not an approprate comment and a very poor argument.
It is talking about different time scales completely. I'm not the sort to be normally correcting others as you may be aware, but you can't be serious here can you ?
This is like blaming president Kennedy or Nixon for todays recession and the Iraq war!!! -They are different periods of time and totally unrelated!!
You mentioned Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, now do you remember exactly what he gave his shaheedi for ?
Was it for followers of Nanak or sikhs ? OR was it the Kashmir hindu pandits ?
If it was't the hindu pandits then why is he referred to as 'hind di chadur'
You don't need answer the questions as the proceeding questions have (answered it themselves!!)
Guru Tegh Bahadurs decapitated head was lying and getting kicked about on the street for days/weeks !!
Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even more upset and annoyed that his father's head was not recognized and was tossed to and fro by passers by.
Hence, this was another turning point and reason for him to give us ALL the dastaar and be recognized.
I made this point because the shaheedis are all done for differing reasons and needs. They are NOT because the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji instructs them, because does it ??
We should not try and use such sacred shaheedis as reasons to back up our foolish arguments and assessments of DG.
Their shaheedis are way too big and huge for us to be using for petty arguments.
Ishna said:See now, I'm of the other opinion, that, from at least Guru Hargobind's time Sikh armies were around WITHOUT the DG and still functioned just fine.
Now, contrary to what many think. It was Guru Hargobind Sahib who requested Baba Buddha ji to place on his head a Royal mughal turban with plume, rather than the traditional, saintly dress of the seli-topi, triangular cap. I just wanted to clear that before we proceed. The tradition of turban-wearing amongst Sikhs starts from Guru Hargobind Sahib.LuckySingh said:Hence, this was another turning point and reason for him to give us ALL the dastaar and be recognized.
Because Khalsa is separate identity than Sikh. Sikh is a more broad term, a heterogeneous mixture. Khalsa is homogeneous. Khalsa was Guru Sahib's army. Waheguru (Guru Gobind Singh ji) ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh as we say today.Ishna said:Why, if the DG is so critically important for Khalsa, was it NOT included as one of Guru Gobind Singh's instructions?
You are right the idealistic models are flawed and do not reflect history.Ishna said:But of course, that doesn't fit with the idealistic model you're trying to work with.
CBF?Ishna said:Count them and let me know because I CBF finding the proper reference anymore.
I don't have too much interest in this subject at personal level and at the stage of my life I am at. I simply post that we need to be scholarly and perhaps have healthy discussion on authentication rather than simply assume authorship. It does not mean to destroy a writing but simply to read these in right context. There is a big difference as recognition of authorship generates substantial influence on how we view, read or absorb a given writing.Role of another Gang of Nirmalas in Patna
During the time of Surat Singh’s arrival in Amritsar, around 1770-75 another gang of Nirmalas became active in Patna. There under auspices of nirmalias Nawal Singh, Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh granthi the pujaris started composition of books. These Nirmalias composed Bachittar Natak (now called Dasam Granth,ironically).
(Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha’s entry regarding Sukha Singh: Granthi of Harmndir Patna Sahib who arranged Sukhmana bani, etc., and created
Dasam granth type treatise. Bhai Kahan Singh also writes that Sarab Loh Granth is also a composition of this Sukha Singh.)
Actually Dasam Granth was created in 1775-83; According to Charles Wilkin(1781) its first script was Nagri (Hindi and Sanskrit). Many decades later it came to Punjab. It was created as a book in 1897. This was all a conspiracy of Nirmalias and the English. First of all in 1810 Malcolm started disseminating it. He indicated the basis of this as Colbrook spring which Nirmala Atma Ram created as a composition. Dasam Granth was also in futile attempted to be linked to Bhai Mani Singh ji. The basis for which was a false letter (this letter has other errors of dates, etc.). Then copies were also made and false dates were supplanted to make it appear and be misleading as “old”.
After this a reform committee (1897-1902) approval of this was fabricated. In actual fact this committee was a conspiracy of Khem Singh Bedi (death 1905) and the English. Khem Singh Bedi is the same person who used the same Pujaris to issue an edict against the leader of Singh Sabha movement. Khem Singh Bedi was a special agent of the Government; he was awarded an assignment of 28272 acres by the crown, in 1893 he was made member of the Punjab Council and was given many positions and decorations.
Subtle differences, but they lead to different emotions. Gruesome descriptions of a deity and his/her acts, lead to Bir Ras, which is mix of anger, andrenaline, rush, etc. Whereas, peaceful depictions lead to well.. peace, Sant Ras. This argument cannot be dismissed.ਚੰਡੀ ਰਾਕਸਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਵਾਹੀ ਦੈਤ ਨੂੰ ॥
चंडी राकसि खाणी वाही दैत नूं ॥
She struck the demon with that Chandi, the devourer of demons (that is the sword).
ਕੋਪਰ ਚੂਰਿ ਚਵਾਣੀ ਲੱਥੀ ਕਰਗ ਲੈ ॥
कोपर चूरि चवाणी ल्थी करग लै ॥
It broke the skull and face into pieces and pierced through the skeleton.
ਪਾਖਰ ਤੁਰਾ ਪਲਾਣੀ ਰੜਕੀ ਧਰਤਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
पाखर तुरा पलाणी रड़की धरति जाइ ॥
And it further pierced through the saddle and caparison of the horse, and struck on the earth supported by the Bull (Dhaul).
ਲੈਦੀ ਅਘਾ ਸਿਧਾਣੀ ਸਿੰਗਾਂ ਧਉਲ ਦਿਆਂ ॥
लैदी अघा सिधाणी सिंगां धउल दिआं ॥
It moved further and struck the horns of the Bull.
ਕੂਰਮ ਸਿਰ ਲਹਿਲਾਣੀ ਦੁਸਮਨ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੈ ॥
कूरम सिर लहिलाणी दुसमन मारि कै ॥
Then it struck on the Tortoise supporting the Bull and thus killing the enemy.
Oh really! The teacher does not matter it is just the book!I am of the opinion that we learn very little about the material when discussing the authenticity of it.
Why don’t just study everything in reference to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Of course you can but it is where you later slip in “Authenticity” or implied “Authorship” that things fall apart. You want to have your cake and eat it too within one post if at that.We ought to look at the philosophy and imagery and study it, and perhaps even make comparisons with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where necessary.
You can get the same from watching Ram-Lilah where Hanuman fights with the so called 12 headed king of Sri Lanka. Plenty of Bir Ras! There are many novels, stories available to get your heart pumping including when in passionate embrace the Kamasutra for that extra Bir Ras.Subtle differences, but they lead to different emotions. Gruesome descriptions of a deity and his/her acts, lead to Bir Ras, which is mix of anger, andrenaline, rush, etc. Whereas, peaceful depictions lead to well.. peace, Sant Ras. This argument cannot be dismissed.
(1). I recognize that you are trying to make logical deductions. Such are made on overwhelming evidence or body of association. Overwhelming body of Sikhs don’t associate with Dasam Granth and as previously posted the dubious and nefarious Nirmalas associated with its origin. Why would you ignore that and just deduce from a smaller body of support for your proposition. Good at word-smithing but pretty pathetic at logic deduction.The fact that so many Sikhs and especially Nihangs revere the text (to the point where they give GGS and DG equal authority) (1) lead me to conclude that these writings are to be studied if we want to study Sikhism because they resonate with the warrior-monks. (2) They teach us something about Sikhism that cannot be learnt from an older text like Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Ambarsaria ji,Bhagat Singh ji I have been thinking for a while to post a calm collected rebuttal. Here is a response with as much calm as I could muster. There was lot of “bir-ras”/adrenalin I had to suppress.
The teacher matters their books, their teachings also matter. They are one and the same. We come to know the teacher through the teachings and teachings through the teacher.Oh really! The teacher does not matter it is just the book!
You have got it! Part of Dasam Granth is exactly this! It's education and media as well as spirituality and philosophy.You can get the same from watching Ram-Lilah where Hanuman fights with the so called 12[ten-] headed king of Sri Lanka. Plenty of Bir Ras! There are many novels, stories available to get your heart pumping including when in passionate embrace the Kamasutra for that extra Bir Ras.
They were already leaders. These guys don't need any lessons from Guru Granth Sahib even. They wrote it, lived it and died for it.Brother you are confusing inner strength with external manifestations. There was plenty of Bir Ras in Gur Arjan Dev ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Taru ji and many others who laid the foundation of Sikhism without any access to such mentioned Dasam Granth.