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Cycles Of The Soul: Creation, Growth, Death Or Transformation Into Other Souls?

Ambarsaria

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Soul is the inner self that is like a sounding board of impartiality within. It sees you without clothes, it sees you without bias or ill will or animosity. In our action we have a choice to go with what our soul tells us or decide otherwise. In practical living, the actions you take in worldly matters do not always bring about the best outcome if you always follow your soul (me think!).


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Soul (my observations in Red)

  • Is soul something you are born with fully developed?
    • You are born with a body and a baby soul in it
  • Is soul something that slowly develops through life?
    • Your soul grows with your body
    • As it sees more of you without any cloak you see it also as the truthful one which understands you whether you like it or not
    • You can camouflage your way through the world, you cannot fool your soul
Living is being born slowly. It would be a little too easy if we could borrow ready-made souls. ~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Flight to Arras, 1942
  • Does your soul continues to be or dissipates in other growing souls at death?
    • Your soul interacts with others through any of the five senses and a sixth sense (soul’s independent processing power)
    • Others interact with you and your soul through their senses and souls
    • Your interactions with other souls diminish but never die totally
    • Your soul is like a wave that diminishes over time to almost nothingness in the Universe ocean but will forever reverberate in a small measure somewhere
  • How are new souls created as there are more people now than 20,000 years ago?
    • Souls never die and parts of them merge with other souls and become part thereof.
    • Souls like entropy will always increase and the new are created for ever with components of old, present other souls and seeding of soul in a baby (biological processes) .... little baby soul or soul infrastructure that develops in every baby child
      • Not to be taken literally, when a new child is born back home (Punjab for me), it used to be that people will ask a great person of good qualities to come and visit the new baby. The person would be considered to give "Gurhti" (like a kick start on a journey of life), and many times with lot of liberties taken (not to be taken literally or a s belief in magic or superstition), people will say "bil kul ohdeh jiha jineh gurhti diti see" (implying the person has grown with many qualities of the person who came fot "gurhti visit when the person was a baby.
I simply believe that some part of the human Self or Soul is not subject to the laws of space and time. ~Carl Jung
  • Does non-life have soul?
    • No it does not but everything is part of oneness (Sikhism) and on earth soul like equivalents and souls can be expected to be everywhere.
  • Can you trade your soul?
    • No you cannot. Though, you are allowed to fool yourself for sure.
Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth." Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path." For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals. ~Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet, 1923
  • In the end, can you ever fool your soul or not show its suppression?
    • Another soul always has the capability to see your soul.
      • .... as the saying goes, "Look at me when you speak", as eyes are considered windows on the soul. So when there is a conflict with your soul and your actions it is visible to trained eyes.
    • One way is as if what Sufi Rumi says below,
When you do things from your soul you feel a river moving in you, a joy. When action comes from another section, the feeling disappears. ~Rumi
The above not directed at anyone's beliefs or to make people realize a new truth that negatively impacts their belief system and hence life.


Any comments or thoughts!


Sat Sri Akal.


PS: Seeker9 ji encouraged me. Thanks.
 

Astroboy

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The centipede was happy quite
Until a toad in fun
Said, 'Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised her mind to such a pitch
She lay distracted in a ditch
Considering how to run.
 
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SOUL as innerself is the same as vast infinite outerself it does not take Birth or grows or Dies or transforms into others.
It is JEEVa that takes the Birth and follows the cycleas mentioned in the post.All JEEvs are created from MAYA and SOUL is the life supporting system for the JEEVa/

So it would be interesting to know about the creation of JEEVas and understand their CYCLE of transformation.This creation is again is the result of interaction of complex WAVES AND THERE IS ALWAYS ONETHING COMMON IN ALL jeevAS AND THAT IS sOUL

This is a very deep and complex subject of discussion which can not be comleted in few words.What I have presented as surfacial views about actually who takes Birth and follows the CYCLE of transformation.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Prakash S. Bagga ji some comments and appreciate response.




SOUL as inner-self is the same as vast infinite outer-self it does not take Birth or grows or Dies or transforms into others.

  • Is this a “Jyot” concept?
    • Please define what happens at death and after cremation?
  • So soul does not change but body does!
    • So what part of ourselves are we trying to make better out of understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?
  • Are we to assume that,
    • It is all pre-destined.
    • We play no part but are just puppets.
      • These are not what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji espouses but are Hinduism and other “-ism” concepts.
It is JEEVa that takes the Birth and follows the cycles mentioned in the post. All JEEvs are created from MAYA and “SOUL is the life supporting” system for the JEEVa/

  • Isn’t “JEEVa” just life creation from life as per the laws of nature or oneness that Sikhism believes in, how is it related to “SOUL”
    • Do you believe “Soul” is separate from the creation of life?
  • SOUL is the life supporting” system
    • Please describe what you mean how it works?
  • What is your comment on reference to “chaurasy lakh junes” (8.4 million re-incarnations”
    • Do you believe in it?
      • These are not what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji espouses but are Hinduism and other “-ism” concepts.
These are some questions that come to mind based on your comment.

With regards in order to learn and share.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Namjap ji I pray you provide input. When is centipede going to start moving again? Frog is expecting an answer in the name of God!

I read your referenced article about the two legged dog and it is inspirational for sure. Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.

I might post it in inspirational stories section for sharing.

Again please share your insights in reference to my post as we only grow through sharing.
 
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AMBARSARIA Ji.
My response to your post is as

1...Consciousness is definitely is the reference of JOTi only.

2..It is part "I" or what is reffered as HAUMAMAE in Gurbaani we try to make better out of understanding of SGGS

3...Well,According to Gurbaani it is all predestined.
.............................................................................................................

Let us be clear about the concept of Jeeva.Even EARTH,SUN,MOON and all planets including stars and everything visible in in UNIVERSE is Jeeva.And Consciousness is present within every Jeeva. A quote from SGGS for reference

"APNEE MAYA AAP PASAAREE AAPE DEKHANHARAA
NANAA ROOP DHARE BAHu RANGEE SABH TE RAHE NIARAA" pp537

What is to be accepted or rejected is clearly given in the messages of Gurbaani.According to Gurbaani it is to be believed that the whole game is
of 'Chaurasi lac Joons"There can be no ifs and but about this.

Prakash.S.Bagga.
 

Astroboy

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PS: Namjap ji I pray you provide input. When is centipede going to start moving again? Frog is expecting an answer in the name of God!

I read your referenced article about the two legged dog and it is inspirational for sure. Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.

I might post it in inspirational stories section for sharing.

Again please share your insights in reference to my post as we only grow through sharing.
The frog concept : Acting as a distraction.
Centipede concept : Nature is made intelligent, self-preserving and auto-functional. We are that part of nature who are living like the centipede but we sometimes wonder, like the frog does, how nature works.
 
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NAMJAP Ji,
Wonderful explanation forthe Centipede concept.

Although knowing nature is a continuing process.Our Gurbaani is very clear about this knowing asquote

"HARi KEE GATi NAA KOEE JAANE
JOGEE JAPEE TAPEE PUCH HAARE
ARBO LOG SIYAANE"

So we should have only concern with NAAmu of Gurbaani,

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Astroboy

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Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.

I might post it in inspirational stories section for sharing.

Again please share your insights in reference to my post as we only grow through sharing.
Ambarsaria Ji,

Sometimes i find a inner connection to tell someone, like you, something that does not necessarily have to relate to the topic at hand. I am actually finding myself in that situation now. The inner urges of soul to discover one's self to be surrounded by a greater arena of possibilities and levels of consciousness is as real and profound as our sexual urges and drives. And the urges of soul need not be reduced to just a subliminal thing of the mind. What a co-incidence it is that here we are discussing a subject which kind of relates to what I have just posted on my blog. The 5 videos on how to meditate are just amazing. Here's the link: http://pyaarmessages.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/spiritual-exercises-for-you/#comments
 

Ambarsaria

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NAMJAP Ji,
Wonderful explanation forthe Centipede concept.

Although knowing nature is a continuing process.Our Gurbaani is very clear about this knowing asquote

"HARi KEE GATi NAA KOEE JAANE
JOGEE JAPEE TAPEE PUCH HAARE
ARBO LOG SIYAANE"

So we should have only concern with NAAmu of Gurbaani,

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash S. Bagga ji the above is one of the worse ways to exemplify what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji says in overall context. You have fallen into the trap of "Tuq" (sentence) quoting.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji numerous times reminds about the infinite and indescribable "one creator and truth that is everywhere" including within and around us.

Let us look at your quote,
"HARi KEE GATi NAA KOEE JAANE JOGEE JAPEE TAPEE PUCH HAARE ARBO LOG SIYAANE"

No one knows the working of the creator, Jogis and Sants gave up asking and so did millions of wise
In its simple message to spners, your post says no body has and no body would and millions have given up trying to understand the truth and the creator, so take a chill pill.

This is against Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a whole. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, the writings slowly but surely guide and help us understand. It is not a puzzle that we are trying to solve in full as that is against thee tachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as it is stated that "the creator and the truth is beyond complete description". However, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us to understand as much as we can and not just close eyes believe without understanding or recite "NAAM"/"NAAMu" and you are done.

Please explain.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Astroboy

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Movies are made to create the emotional rollercoaster of extreme sadness and heightened happiness. It has a psychological impact when it reminds of past memories of similar emotions we have experienced.

But the theme of the video song is about the persistent mindset the child has been taught to have; when he is expecting some support probably food and care but is being shunned by all the villagers. The song is supposed to convey a moral lesson which actually have its roots in spirituality. It is not a spiritual principle alone but a realization when one attains some level of enlightenment. Jyot se jyot jalaa ke chalo actually is very similar as what Guru Gobind Singh Ji explained about Khalsa (as follows):-
"Know a Khalsa only when the full Light shines in his body."
 
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
Sir ,you have totally misunderstood the underline message of the Tuk as presented,

You are considering the meaning of word GATi as TRUTH.It is not so ,here the word GATi referes to any probable next move of THE CREATOR.

Moreover THE CREATOR is to be known thru NAAMu only not as some sort of thing or so.

So pl rethink the wordings of the sabad and decide again.Message is absolutely straight and crystal clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
What should be the meaning of the Tuk ;HARi Ki GATi NAA KOEE JAANE" according to your perception
I would request to post your thinking on thisline so that i can rectify my understanding
as I may be wrong too.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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AMBARSARIA Ji,
Sir ,you have totally misunderstood the underline message of the Tuk as presented,

You are considering the meaning of word GATi as TRUTH.It is not so ,here the word GATi referes to any probable next move of THE CREATOR.

Moreover THE CREATOR is to be known thru NAAMu only not as some sort of thing or so.

So pl rethink the wordings of the sabad and decide again.Message is absolutely straight and crystal clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Actually parkash s bagga ji - I have been remiss lately in enforcing the Term of Service in your case and others. It is required that you post the entire shabad and not a single tuk. For reasons stated by Ambarsaria ji. So please do so in the future. Thank you.
 

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This is the shabad ...posted so that 99 percent of our readers are not wandering around in confusion about the source of the discussion at this point --- and becoming frustrated because everything is so much like thinking in short-hand. :)

Please be warned that deletions will follow.



Shabad follows


Raag Bihaagraa, Ninth Mehl:
8 ਪੰ. ੮


ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਊ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Har Kee Gath Nehi Kooo Jaanai ||
No one knows the state of the Lord.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਲੋਗ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jogee Jathee Thapee Pach Haarae Ar Bahu Log Siaanae ||1|| Rehaao ||
The Yogis, the celibates, the penitents, and all sorts of clever people have failed. ||1||Pause||


ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਕਰਈ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
Shhin Mehi Raao Rank Ko Karee Raao Rank Kar Ddaarae ||
In an instant, He changes the beggar into a king, and the king into a beggar.


ਰੀਤੇ ਭਰੇ ਭਰੇ ਸਖਨਾਵੈ ਯਹ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Reethae Bharae Bharae Sakhanaavai Yeh Thaa Ko Bivehaarae ||1||
He fills what is empty, and empties what is full - such are His ways. ||1||


ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ ॥
Apanee Maaeiaa Aap Pasaaree Aapehi Dhaekhanehaaraa ||
He Himself spread out the expanse of His Maya, and He Himself beholds it.

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥੨॥
Naanaa Roop Dhharae Bahu Rangee Sabh Thae Rehai Niaaraa ||2||
He assumes so many forms, and plays so many games, and yet, He remains detached from it all. ||2||


ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world.
Note: "misled" is a bad equivalent in this line.



ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Sagal Bharam Thaj Naanak Praanee Charan Thaahi Chith Laaeiou ||3||1||2||
Cast off all your doubts; prays Nanak, O mortal, focus your consciousness on His Feet. ||3||1||2||
 
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SPNADMIN Ji.

I understand your concern about this but i had already expressed my inability to do so long back.
So I would request you to post this SABAD which is there in SGGS pp537.
Thanking you

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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That is fine. If any one has a problem, he or she can also seek my assistance.

I have already posted the complete shabad from Ang 537. See above.
 

Ambarsaria

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This is the shabad ...posted so that 99 percent of our readers are not wandering around in confusion about the source of the discussion at this point --- and becoming frustrated because everything is so much like thinking in short-hand. :)

Please be warned that deletions will follow.



Shabad follows


Raag Bihaagraa, Ninth Mehl:
8 ਪੰ. ੮
ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਊ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Har Kee Gath Nehi Kooo Jaanai ||
No one knows the state of the Lord.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਲੋਗ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥੧॥
ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jogee Jathee Thapee Pach Haarae Ar Bahu Log Siaanae ||1|| Rehaao ||
The Yogis, the celibates, the penitents, and all sorts of clever people have failed. ||1||
Pause||


ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਕਰਈ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
Shhin Mehi Raao Rank Ko Karee Raao Rank Kar Ddaarae ||
In an instant, He changes the beggar into a king, and the king into a beggar.


ਰੀਤੇ ਭਰੇ ਭਰੇ ਸਖਨਾਵੈ ਯਹ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Reethae Bharae Bharae Sakhanaavai Yeh Thaa Ko Bivehaarae ||1||
He fills what is empty, and empties what is full - such are His ways. ||1||


ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ ॥
Apanee Maaeiaa Aap Pasaaree Aapehi Dhaekhanehaaraa ||
He Himself spread out the expanse of His Maya, and He Himself beholds it.

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥੨॥
Naanaa Roop Dhharae Bahu Rangee Sabh Thae Rehai Niaaraa ||2||
He assumes so many forms, and plays so many games, and yet, He remains detached from it all. ||2||


ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world.



ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Sagal Bharam Thaj Naanak Praanee Charan Thaahi Chith Laaeiou ||3||1||2||
Cast off all your doubts; prays Nanak, O mortal, focus your consciousness on His Feet. ||3||1||2||
Prakash S. Bagga ji the answer is given by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji right after "||1|| Rehaao ||".

So what I have stated in my original post is that you have just created "Doubt" and taken the front part of the Shabad before
||1|| Rehaao ||, which is a statement/Question throughout Gurbani.

Whereas once you quote the full shabad the question is put in a perspective by examples for learning and understanding given after
||1|| Rehaao ||.

So in the end the whole Shabad is "Active" versus your original "Tuk" quote emphasizing submission, futility of searching, learning, trying to understand, etc.

I am shocked at this indiscretion unless it is an honest mistake and not an approach. Please clarify.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
I appreciate your views with respect to what you say.
You will be greatly surprised to know that in SGGS there are many SABADS without having any TUK of RAHAO.In such case you will find that everylineor group of lines has different messages in the same SABAD.This is just an information.
I also feel sorry if you have taken a different view because of incompete posting of the SABAD.In future I shall take care of this aspect I assure you,

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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