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Charitropakhyan Charitar No 19 - The Tale Of Nadira Bano

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Harry Haller

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As i have repeated many times before, the onus is on the reader to sift the knowledge from the base material. Those with base instinct will get caught up in the base material. Those with Bibek Buddhi will look beyond that to see the essence.

You have asked this question several times already, I hope that this will finally suffice.
Sorry it does not, and its the only point that we need to discuss, otherwise there are too many points for a reasonable debate. Onus or no onus, why did the tenth master choose such disgusting scenarios to illustrate points? I would hazard a guess that the common man did not even know about drugs and sex, so it certainly was not in a language he would understand, most of the stories were not what common people could relate to, to them it was more like Eastenders, something with an almost fantasy storyline, I doubt your common man slept with prostitutes or knew about drugs. None of us should have to look beyond the base material, and the base material is base regardless,

As I have said before, get past this point before we move on,

Why did the tenth Master use such extreme behaviour that the common man would not be able to relate to, other than as a form of entertainment with a moral? Is the Sikh religion not so much more than that?
 

Admin

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Dear all, please focus in the Charitar 19... if you want to discuss other facets of DG, please open another thread. This thread is on the brink of an imminent closure. Thank you.
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,
One must be thankfull and treat as blessing to live in a peacefull zone, and not living in a war zone,
Males and Females enjoying life of "SIKHISM" and "HINDUS" enjoying life of "HINDUISM"

First war will a war of "CHARACTER", a leader who has to win war and will have experienced loss of "CHARACTER" in community, should have written this to warn the leaders before deciding a revolt "HOW TO CHOOSE" marshals, who can make a war "WIN"
if one has experienced some behavior has documented, and may help to choose right "HUMANS"

HOW TO PERCEIVE FAITH

Think of Muslims, and MALES/FEMALES
Shall think of MUSLIM females why they offer there bodies to Marshalls during war. for there religion or for there males.
They are faithful to RELIGION of MALES/FEMALES
There males/females "DOUBT" or have "FAITH" in them
They have "FAITH" or "SEX" in there minds.

ANY "SIKH" or "LEARNER" who can ANSWER

"SIKHS" or "LEARNERS" have lost there faith in religion,
"INSPITE" of having faith in "GURU's" there are long debates on "GURU's BANI" and they have have feeling there is "DUAL" without introspection there own minds.

we have long debates on

SEX
FOOD(FLESH or LIQUOR)
INSECURITY amongst SIKHS is highest as they have failed to unite with "CHARACTER
RELATIONS are loosing as MALES/FEMALES have "FANTASY"/ "DOUBT"
"EGO" the formal education with high training of contradiction/ debate/ comparison/ analyics

without righteous "EDUCATION"
on
"SEX/FOOD/SECURITY/RELATION/EGO" of "RELIGIOUS SPIRIT" is all low ans is in doubt.

"FAMILY SYSTEM" base of "SIKHISM" is destroying without "CHARACTER"


one is having doubts on "GURU's BANI" very very "UNFORTUNATE"

and

"SIKHS" find it "DUALITY" and have long discussions which is "SO GREAT"

"DEBATES" and "QUESTIONING" on "GURU's BANI" which was strongly CONDEMNED for
"SIKHS" of "LEARNERS"

only path of "UNDERSTANDING" was given to "LEARNER",

BUT FIRST "SIKH" SHALL HAVE FAITH IN "GURU's BANI"


"LEARNING" or "SIKHI" and the dividing forces are dominating.

"TRANSLATORS" have mastered to create division, and one is following, "TRANSLATORS" with just literal knowledge having lesser experience on other subjects, rather following and understanding "GURU's BANI"
"SIKH's" are engaged in resolving "CONTRADICTIONS"

I hope after resolving contradictions one will do some positive work to fabric "SIKHISM" in true spirit.
and spread message of "RIGHTEOUS LIVING" in "HUMAN COMMUNITY" rather than "CONTRADICTING" on own "SELF FAITH" of "SIKHISM"

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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Sat Sri Akaal,
One must be thankfull and treat as blessing to live in a peacefull zone, and not living in a war zone,
Males and Females enjoying life of "SIKHISM" and "HINDUS" enjoying life of "HINDUISM"

First war will a war of "CHARACTER", a leader who has to win war and will have experienced loss od "CHRACTER" in community, should have written this to warn the leaders before deciding a revolt "HOW TO CHOOSE" marshals, whon can mnake a war "WIN"

HOW TO PERCEIVE FAITH

Think of Muslims, and MALES/FEMALES
Shall think of MUSLIM females why they offer there bodies to Marshalls during war. for there religion or for there males.
They are faithful to RELIGION of MALES/FEMALES
There males/females "DOUBT" or have "FAITH" in them
They have "FAITH" or "SEX" in there minds.

ANY "SIKH" or "LEARNER" who can ANSWER

"SIKHS" or "LEARNERS" have lost there faith in religion,
"INSPITE" of having faith in "GURU's" there are long debates on "GURU's BANI" and they have have feeling there is "DUAL" without interospection there own minds.



we have long debates on

SEX
FOOD(FLESH or LIQUOR)
INSECURITY amongst SIKHS is highest as they have failed to unite with "CHARACTER
RELATIONS are loosing as MALES/FEMALES have "FANTASY"/ "DOUBT"
"EGO" the formal education without understanding of "RELIGIOUS SPIRIT" is all high

"FAMILY SYSTEM" base of "SIKHISM" is destroying without "CHARACTER"


one is having doubts on "GURU's BANI" very very "UNFORTUNATE"

and

"SIKHS" find it "DUALITY" and have long discussions which is "SO GREAT"

"DEBATES" and "QUESTIONING" on "GURU's BANI" which was strongly CONDEMNED for
"SIKHS" of "LEARNERS"

only path of "UNDERSTANDING" was given to "LEARNER",

BUT FIRST "SIKH" SHALL HAVE FAITH IN "GURU's BANI"


"LEARNING" or "SIKHI" and the dividing forces are dominating.

"TRANSLATORS" have mastered to create division, and one is following, rather following
"GURU's BANI"




WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
Those of us with concerns do not think we are doubting 'Guru's Bani' instead we think that false writing is being attributed to our Guru. False writing which paints females in a very low light, condemning actions of women while condoning actions of men in the same light. Writing that paints females as seductresses, deceitful, immoral, and calling men fools for trusting us. We believe our Guru would never write such things about female gender, while leaving the male gender in such a good light.

In this particular charitar, the husband's actions of cheating on his wife were the cause of everything, but the moral message at the end was not condemning his actions at all! What it does is call him a fool for trusting his wife and allowing her to deceive him! Her obedience is stressed as if a wife's obedience is important. But I guess it suggests husbands dont need to be obedient to their wives. Its saying that he needs to control his wife more and dont trust her. She should be obedient in everything, but he can do what he wants since he is a man. This is not something our Guru would condone since our Gurus taught equality of male / female.
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

Harkiran Ji,

I do agree "Perception of Translator" may be wrong

Again focus is on shedding "DOUBT" and having "FAITH"
and
Is irrespective Male/Female or Husband/Wife one can understand looking above own "MIND" which is both "Male/Female"

Falsehood shall not take charge of "SIKH" or "LEARNER"

HUSBAND / WIFE cheating is not the concern, please don't interpret that way, it is a false translation/perception.


and passing blames will not bring peace.

I always have a question for SELF

1. If someone (Husband/Wife) do not cheat, still (Wife/Husband) have doubt. Do "SIKH" "DOUBT"
2.How doubt appears (Husband/Wife) is it situation (Test Situation)
3. Without having (Test Situation) how the mind resolves
4. How to develop "FAITH" and shed "DOUBT"

Many a time situations are reversed
wife is out and husbands are in doubt
wife is conversing with male and husband are in doubt.
men are tempting females with diamonds etc so its not physical,

Same ping is there in situations irrespective of male and female.

HOW TO PERCEIVE FAITH

Think of Muslims, and MALES/FEMALES in the same reference text.

Shall think of MUSLIM females why they offer there bodies to Marshal during war. for there religion or for there males.

They are faithful to RELIGION of MALES/FEMALES
There males/females "DOUBT" or have "FAITH" in them
They have "FAITH" or "SEX" in there minds.

ANY "SIKH" or "LEARNER" who can ANSWER this way of perception.
As a Male/Female or Husband /Wife


"DOUBTS" kill relation
and
"SEXUAL" and "FINANCIAL" temptation and abuse is test for leaders at position.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Ravneet Ji your posts are still very confusing sorry.

You are right, it's not about the cheating, the message is about control. Male control over female.
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

Harkirat Ji,

All minds are Females irrespective of physical male/female form and have lust/doubts/passion etc and are controlled by UNIVERSAL energy.

Once it was asked how to handle so many females/males in a house
Reply was just leave the "HANDLE"

It is not about Male controlling Female or Female controlling Males

It is about "SELF CONTROL" and focusing "ONE" way to live irrespective
to shed "DUALITY"

No confusion, its crystal and clear.

Again to remind HUMAN emotions are more based on MIND TRAINING
rather than PHYSICAL SITUATION for same situation different minds act and react differently on basis of active store of information.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 
Ravneet Ji your posts are still very confusing sorry.

You are right, it's not about the cheating, the message is about control. Male control over female.
Harkirat Ji,

Rather it is reverse Female having control on Male
where potential ENERGY one loose by virtue of lust in mind.
 

Kully

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Onus or no onus, why did the tenth master choose such disgusting scenarios to illustrate points?
Because if you wish to portray base human behaviour you have to do it in the most appropriate setting.

I would hazard a guess that the common man did not even know about drugs and sex,
I don't understand why you are bringing drugs into the discussion. But as for sex since time began the issue has been there. Even if we look at "advanced" societies of 2000 years ago, like the Romans and Greeks, the issue was there.


I doubt your common man slept with prostitutes or knew about drugs.
Nevermind the common man, what about the sakhi of Bhai Joga Singh?


the message is about control. Male control over female.
Self-control.
 
Dear all, please focus in the Charitar 19... if you want to discuss other facets of DG, please open another thread. This thread is on the brink of an imminent closure. Thank you.
I think that we have all said pretty much every thing we want to say. now the thread is going round in circles.

If Harkiran will reveal the other charitar number about the violence against women, then I will start a new thread on that.
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

When the inner debates are concluded one is thought less on those subjects after conclusion.
Normally a life passes away but debates of mind are not over.
Few are fortunate for them
life is there but thought accumulation of many eras die. mind become free for new thoughts.
to understand "BRAHMGYAN" awareness of "TRUE NATURE" .

"SIKH" life is "JEEVAN MUKT" "JEEVAN JUGT"
FREE SOUL a WAY OF LIFE

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Kully Ji you are agreeing it's base human behaviour for females to be deceiver and immoral?

Ravneet yes we are all female souls but it's not female in sense of physical female anatomy. The idea of female soul is a metaphor because our relation to Waheguru the only closest relationship we can compare to is husband and wife where two literally become one. In reality there is NO gender. However we are all still stuck temporarily in a body that DOES have gender. And these stories in charitropakhyan paint those of us who are stuck currently in female bodies as being the deceivers that souls in male bodies should control and not trust. By looking at one physical gender as being the evil one and the other as being the one who should exercise control over the other, we are essentially saying that those born in a female body are born so as a punishment. To be born into a lower and subordnate position just to be controlled by the other. The stories in charitropakhyan tell
Souls in male bodies that they are better and deserve more privilege over souls in female bodies. That souls in female bodies are there to be controlled and limited and are seen as sexual deviants and deceivers. While those in male bodies are never condemned for their own deceit and adulterous behaviours. Those in female bodies are painted as being far worse and condemned for behaviour that those in male bodies are being excused for. In fact the only thing those in male bodies are being condemned for, is trusting and allowing those souls in female bodies to have too much freedom and therefore becoming deceived by them and made the fool. But it never tells those in female bodies to exercise more control over those in male bodies or to limit them or to see them as deceivers.

Notice I said those in male bodies and female bodies because yes I know soul is genderless however we are stuck in a physical gender and that physical gender is what is being condemned for females.
 
Kully Ji you also said:

The bigger fool was the husband who had everything (the beautiful wife) but was not content with her. Her deceit was just a reaction to his deceit.
So what if a husband who's wife is not 'beautiful'? Why should her outward appearance even mean anything? Is this what Sikhi teaches that outward appearance is what matters? What if I am not beautiful? Is my worth based on how beautiful I am? Is it then ok for my husband to cheat because he does lot have 'everything' ??
 
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ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

Harkirat Ji, only I believe there is no contradiction in "GURU's BANI" i do not work on human translations, but yes little I have read "GURU's BANI" is non dual and free from contradiction, and cannot take misinterpretation of "GURU's WORK" and false hood.
Also I am not good in text presentation, and write just the way it comes.
I have never read in GURMUKHI these chapters, but it need work on right perception.
May be male writer will blame female or if then there be a female writer she could have written other way.

Any text written have given hurt to personnel feeling, i regret for that, but is written in spirit of "Learner" or "SIKH" not as an expert.

But we shall not follow the human translation but follow original "BANI" the chapter1 in GURMUKHI no way reflects physical male female.

One should work on translation of original form to get a right perception which reflects "TRUE FORM" of text.


Instead of male female words used shall be "ONE" it contains both.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Instead of male female words used shall be "ONE" it contains both.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Why even then need when we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru, which does not point blame at either gender and speaks only about the genderless and the ONE? Makes much more sense than having to tell some to try to ignore the blatant attacks on the gender body they happen to be inhabiting at the moment don't you think?
 

ravneet_sb

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Why even then need when we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru, which does not point blame at either gender and speaks only about the genderless and the ONE? Makes much more sense than having to tell some to try to ignore the blatant attacks on the gender body they happen to be inhabiting at the moment don't you think?
There is a problem in "TRUE EXPRESSION" by TRANSLATOR do AGREE. but resolve conclude and purify with "TRUTH" and "FAITH" not with "FALSEHOOD"

Please share the original text for understanding, of CHAPTER

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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There is a problem in "TRUE EXPRESSION" by TRANSLATOR do AGREE. but resolve conclude and purify with "TRUTH" and "FAITH" not with "FALSEHOOD"

Please share the original text for understanding, of CHAPTER

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Its not possible in the context of those stories to substitute male for female and vice versa. So it's not a matter of translation. In the case of this charitar, and the time frame until recent history, women were expected to obey male authority. It was a given. Women were things owned by men, and not equals. Our Gurus tried to rectify that by telling us that women and men are equals, souls are all genderless and ultimately there is only ONE in existence. However, within this physical reality, and result of duality, we have male and female forms. And different aspects of that ONE soul are inhabiting male and female forms. The story as depicted, does very much give the message that wives (females) in human sense, are to obey their husbands (males). This is regardless of the fact that we know souls are all genderless and all seen as female and God is the only male. In this human physical context, our Gurus worked to ELIMINATE this view that souls in female bodies are somehow lesser than those in male bodies. So then, to write a story that reinforces the idea of female is subordinate to male, goes against that. This charitar presents the end ideas:

1) that women are objects (she was valued for her beauty, as Kully Ji said, he had 'everything' because she was beautiful - as if it would have been ok if she was ugly)
2) that the ideal for human marriage is an obedient wife with husband in authority and power (emphasized in the charitar that men should be in authority, woman should be submissive and subordinate)
3) that its ok for men (husbands) to keep secrets from their wives (wise men dont tell secrets to women)
4) that its OK for a man to deceive and cheat on his wife (the moral message at the end makes no reference to his adultery but only of her deceiving him)
5) that its NOT ok for a woman to do the same (the moral message points out that her deceiving her husband made him into a 'fool')
6) that men who trust their wives end up being made into 'fools' (the message is never trust any women, even your own wife. That women are to be controlled)

If it were truly for ALL humans regardless of gender. Then where are the lines saying that the husband made his wife into a fool? Where are the lines emphasizing that the husband should be obedient and not do anything without his wife's approval? Where are the lines saying that she had 'everything' because her husband was handsome? There are none. Everything is one sided.

The messages given in this charitar alone, go completely against EVERYTHING our Gurus taught about male and female being equal and deserving equal rights as both being carriers of the divine light equally. We dont need a second granth to tell us the same ideas presented in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and in such a way that alienates half the human race (females). Just put your faith in SGGSJ only.
 
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