Josh martin
SPNer
My rules are simple: One post at a time to keep 1v1 debate/talk instead of 10 different discussions in all different directions. If will attempt to each question. If someone already posted before you, wait for me to reply so we stay on the same boat(repeating wut I said above).
Premises is simple enough "Being naamdhari is sikhi" try to be in ballpark of this discussion. Idea is to provide better understanding of our own religion culture for ones who are interested. All questions are welcome. :happy:
Folllowing is quote from sikh namdhari.
Being Naamdhari is Sikhi. I am using his quote instead of my own text for a reason.
Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,
Sat-Sri Akaal
I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.
From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).
I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.
Firstly, let's get one fact straight:
SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.
Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.
He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?
Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)
Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.
When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.
Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.
How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.
I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.
THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.
THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.
SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.
I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.
WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]
WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?
NAMDHARI Sikhs, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.
THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR Sikhs TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.
NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU Nanak DEVJI.
All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.
The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.
In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:
'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'
This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!
They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.
Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14966 (Being Naamdhari is Sikhi)
A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE Amrit: NAAM
IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN Amrit SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14966 (Being Naamdhari is Sikhi)
ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 840,000.
SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.
So now I ask you:
How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?
Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.
All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the Sikhs of our great Master: The SATGURU.
Sat Sri Akaal
