Are We Guided Towards Monogamy In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!

[Ambarsaria]

Harry Haller ji thanks for your post. Your write up actually gives us another nugget.

A true Sikh becomes when,

The free will (actions thereof) and the truth of the creator are perfectly aligned

Other analogies,

When the soul and actions are perfectly aligned

or

When the inside speak is the same as the outside speak

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: In terms of your strong statement regarding monogamy having little to do with parental/societal guidance/pressure I wish to differ. I believe it is strongly affected by such norms which may be related to the truths in creation, etc., genetic, so on but its visual is societal/parental/family. Anyway not a biggy :winkingmunda:

 

[anon]

Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji not have three wives, and children with two of them? also did guru Harogobind Ji not have three wives and not have children with all three? According to the family tree drawn in Khushwant Singh's A History of the Sikhs volume 1 they did... i dont know if he did this because he had an agenda (some people have said that Khushwant Singh's work is inaccurate) but to me t doesnt seem likely that he did because throughout most of the book he speaks in favor of the Sikhs and negatively of most of the Mughal Emperors.

Many Sikhs are supporters of monogamy and I know there is a lot of historical dispute with regards to the wives of the Gurus. I was wondering if anyone could explain how these historical inaccuracies occurred and weather or not Sikhs should pay them any heed when discussing issues surrounding polygamy and monogamy...

 

[spnadmin]

anon ji

Please check the threads in this forum that have already discussed the wives of Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Hargobind to death. No, they did not have multiple wives; only one at a time. Mythology on this point tends to be spread periodically on the Internet by Muslims, and also by Hindu nationalists who have an agenda of undermining Sikhism politically by undermining history.


General caution to everyone: Further discussion of the Gurus' wives will be considered on a tangent and deleted. Thanks

 

[spnadmin]

Sherdil ji

1. Guru Gobind Singh did not have 2 wives at the same time. The first one died.

2. The story of the nobleman's daughter has been overwrought. She was never his wife. If we are thinking of the same person, this is the 'mother of the khalsa," Mata Sahib Kaur ji. And Guru ji told her that the khalsa would be her lineage.

3. The wives and concubines of Ranjit Singh make for interesting historical dialog. That dialog is not connected to this thread. Why did he have a harem? Why did some wives go to sati when he died? Who today is guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 100 percent? Let us not therefore use Maharaja ji as either an example or an exception.

4. I said that further discussion of this matter in this thread was off-topic and comments would be deleted. Forgive me.

 

[SaintSoldier1699]

Ambarsaria ji, thank you for your feedback and input.

When I referred to the decision based on lust, greed etc I meant in the very basic ways, i.e. just going for looks in a partner, or looking for a rich partner. Basically the intention is not based on finding a connection grounded on something deeper than those outside material wants.

Cause we are always going to be effected by the 5 vices, but they are there to be controlled and used in the correct ways which is difficult to master I agree!

 

[Harry Haller]

Cause we are always going to be effected by the 5 vices, but they are there to be controlled and used in the correct ways which is difficult to master I agree!

very enlightened (in my opinion) , rather than the normal 'kill, destroy, vanquish'....

look up platos chariot, it speaks in a similar vein

 

[Sherdil]

Sherdil ji

1. Guru Gobind Singh did not have 2 wives at the same time. The first one died.

2. The story of the nobleman's daughter has been overwrought. She was never his wife. If we are thinking of the same person, this is the 'mother of the khalsa," Mata Sahib Kaur ji. And Guru ji told her that the khalsa would be her lineage.

3. The wives and concubines of Ranjit Singh make for interesting historical dialog. That dialog is not connected to this thread. Why did he have a harem? Why did some wives go to sati when he died? Who today is guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 100 percent? Let us not therefore use Maharaja ji as either an example or an exception.

4. I said that further discussion of this matter in this thread was off-topic and comments would be deleted. Forgive me.

Sorry, I was writing my reply when you posted that message. I only saw it after I clicked "post reply".

Guru ji's first wife, Mata Jito, was the mother of the of the 4 Sahibzaade. She passed away. Then Guru ji married Mata Sahib Kaur, but didn't have any marital relations with her out of respect for the deceased Mata Jito. Instead he made her mother of the Khalsa.

My point about Maharaja Ranjit Singh, was to show that Sikhs did have multiple wives in the past. The Akal Takht didn't say anything, until he married a Muslim courtesan. Therefore, I don't think Gurbani speaks much on the subject.

However, I think current rehat maryada endorses a monogamous relationship, which I agree with.

Bhul chuk maaf. No offense intended. I am simply clarifying my points.

 

[Sherdil]

In most religions, intercourse is seen as a means to bear children. That can be accomplished by monogamy. Having more than one wife, in my opinion, is overkill and can be seen more along the lines of a status symbol or for one's own amusement. I don't think it is befitting of a spiritual person.

In this regard, homosexuality is a tricky topic for religious thinkers. Homosexuals cannot produce offspring, therefore they have intercourse for purely kaami reasons. How do religious institutions condone this? We shall see in the decades to come.

 

[spnadmin]

Sorry, I was writing my reply when you posted that message. I only saw it after I clicked "post reply".

Guru ji's first wife, Mata Jito, was the mother of the of the 4 Sahibzaade. She passed away. Then Guru ji married Mata Sahib Kaur, but didn't have any marital relations with her out of respect for the deceased Mata Jito. Instead he made her mother of the Khalsa.

M

JIo This is incorrect.

 

[Ishna]

Sherdil ji

In most religions, intercourse is seen as a means to bear children. That can be accomplished by monogamy. Having more than one wife, in my opinion, is overkill and can be seen more along the lines of a status symbol or for one's own amusement. I don't think it is befitting of a spiritual person.

Having more than one wife is handy if it's important to grow your family and the population in general as quickly as possible. One man can father many children at once but a woman can only bear one (usually) child at a time. Therefore, when children are very useful for working the land, herding your livestock, building, guarding, fighting, protecting, and bearing more children, then I can see the benefit of this kind of relationship.

In this regard, homosexuality is a tricky topic for religious thinkers. Homosexuals cannot produce offspring, therefore they have intercourse for purely kaami reasons. How do religious institutions condone this? We shall see in the decades to come.

What about heterosexual couples who choose not to have children, or who can't have children? Should they abstain from intimate relations?

Intimate relations are not only about kaam and procreation. They can be part of loving human relationships. IMHO.

 

[Sherdil]

JIo This is incorrect.

Sorry. I will not discuss this anymore.

 

[Sherdil]

Sherdil ji

What about heterosexual couples who choose not to have children, or who can't have children? Should they abstain from intimate relations?

Intimate relations are not only about kaam and procreation. They can be part of loving human relationships. IMHO.

I agree with you, intercourse can be an expression of love. Gurbani shows us what true love is when it discusses the soul-bride yearning for its husband-lord. However, love-making usually became baby-making because there were no contraceptives back in the day.

Sikhi says that we cannot have intimate relations outside of marriage. Marriage is a religious construct. That's why people get married in a Gurdwara, Church, Mosque, etc.

"First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the baby in the baby carriage." :whislingmunda:

This construct is a means towards procreation, from a religious standpoint. It is meant to ensure fidelity, otherwise people would be having children out of wedlock. No telling who the father is (before DNA testing ).

This is why religious institutions (even our own Akal Takht) are struggling with the concept of gay marriage. They cannot produce children, so the institution of marriage serves no purpose for them.

Homosexuals don't need to get married to prove their love for each other. However, in the United States, there are legal and financial benefits awarded to one's spouse, such as serving as next of kin, or making sure your spouse's wishes are upheld in case they are medically incapacitated.

Therefore, I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry in a civil union, done by the state. Anand Karaj would serve no purpose for them.

It gets tricky when dealing with infertile couples. Chances are that the infertile partner didn't know they were infertile when they got married. So Anand Karaj will have already been done.

Couples who choose not to have children are okay too, from a Sikhi view point. They always have the potential to have kids if they want too.

This is why gurbani is mum on the subject. Akal is without gender, so if we are to merge with the One, then our gender becomes meaningless. Thus, marriage falls into the realm of temporal authority.

 

[angrisha]

In most religions, intercourse is seen as a means to bear children. That can be accomplished by monogamy. Having more than one wife, in my opinion, is overkill and can be seen more along the lines of a status symbol or for one's own amusement. I don't think it is befitting of a spiritual person.

In this regard, homosexuality is a tricky topic for religious thinkers. Homosexuals cannot produce offspring, therefore they have intercourse for purely kaami reasons. How do religious institutions condone this? We shall see in the decades to come.

==g

Its actually well documented that homosexuality exists in other mammal species as well not just humans. Dolphins for example are known to engage in sex for pleasure reasons just like humans. So the idea of sex just for offspring doesn't entirely hold up in the animal world.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I think it is short-sighted and a bit shallow to say that the sexual act has only two purposes: procreation and satisfying kaam. That is simply not true.

It can be a way of expressing love, a means of comforting the spouse, even just a spot of fun between spouses. In many, many cases, it is the glue that holds a marriage together. We are a sexual species and we ignore this at our own risk.

I hope this is not too far off-topic. After all, we are supposed to do this only with our wedded spouse. :winkingmunda:

 

[Harry Haller]

Sikhi says that we cannot have intimate relations outside of marriage.

where does it say that?

I am not legally married, and I have sex (sometimes)

It gets tricky when dealing with infertile couples. Chances are that the infertile partner didn't know they were infertile when they got married. So Anand Karaj will have already been done.

as for only having sex for babies, she has just gone through the menapause, so does that mean we cannot have sex ever again?
are you also saying women who have gone through the menapause cannot have Anand Karaj? I mean I know I should not eat eggs, but never having sex again is a bit rich, which Jatha have you obtained this information from?

 

[Ishna]

I don't get the impression that anand karaj is a committment to have children, and that's that. Anand Karaj is about making a committment to live in Sikhi as a couple, and to accompany each other on the journey to realising nearness to Ik Onkar.

 

[SaintSoldier1699]

In reality isn't the lava just Gurbani showing a yearning for the truth and union with the ultimate truth. I thought the panth decided to create a formal Sikh wedding ceremony to obtain rights as an ethnic minority in India? (I may stand corrected :blushh: ).

So, in reality the ceremony of marriage is just that a ceremony a formal procedure, a pledge, a promise. As far as Gurbani goes it seems to me that two people who feel as one are a true union regardless of any ceremonies?

Also, in regards to the sex, it is a survival mechanism which ensures all species dependent on it to reproduce are programmed to do so. Whether they choose to or not, whether its meaningful or not is up to the individual. But it is a basic necessity for survival. Yet in a so called religious environment a taboo not to be spoken about or certain rules approving people from taking part in it or not.

 

[Harry Haller]

As far as Gurbani goes it seems to me that two people who feel as one are a true union regardless of any ceremonies?

I think the idea is that Anand Karaj combines the journey of two people to live by the truth, so it becomes a union of three, man, wife and Creator. I do not see why two women, or two men cannot subscribe to this, but in that subscription, the need to find and live by the truth should be paramount, respected Ambersariaji once stated that Sikhism had no interest in what went on in the bedroom, I happen to agree with that.It is truthful living that counts, not hitting yourself on the head so you do not enjoy an orgasm.

 

[Sherdil]

I think it is short-sighted and a bit shallow to say that the sexual act has only two purposes: procreation and satisfying kaam. That is simply not true.

It can be a way of expressing love, a means of comforting the spouse, even just a spot of fun between spouses. In many, many cases, it is the glue that holds a marriage together. We are a sexual species and we ignore this at our own risk.

I hope this is not too far off-topic. After all, we are supposed to do this only with our wedded spouse. :winkingmunda:

Yes, it can be an act of love. But this act of love has consequences. You can end up with a baby. This was true in Guru ji's time, as there was no contraception.

I am not saying that you shouldn't have sex with your spouse to show love. I was discussing the institution of marriage as a means of procreation.

 

[Sherdil]

where does it say that?

I am not legally married, and I have sex (sometimes)


as for only having sex for babies, she has just gone through the menapause, so does that mean we cannot have sex ever again?
are you also saying women who have gone through the menapause cannot have Anand Karaj? I mean I know I should not eat eggs, but never having sex again is a bit rich, which Jatha have you obtained this information from?

We are meant to live the householder's life. SRM also prohibits extra-marital relations.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸਾਚੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ अनदिनु गुण गावहि नित साचे गुर कै सबदि सुहाइआ ॥१॥ An▫ḏin guṇ gāvahi niṯ sācẖe gur kai sabaḏ suhā▫i▫ā. ||1|| Night and day, they continually sing the Glorious Praises of the True Lord; they are adorned with the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥ मेरे ठाकुर हम बारिक सरणि तुमारी ॥ Mere ṯẖākur ham bārik saraṇ ṯumārī. O my Lord and Master, I am Your child; I seek Your Sanctuary.
ਏਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਸਚੁ ਤੂ ਕੇਵਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ एको सचा सचु तू केवलु आपि मुरारी ॥ रहाउ ॥ Ėko sacẖā sacẖ ṯū keval āp murārī. Rahā▫o. You are the One and Only Lord, the Truest of the True; You Yourself are the Destroyer of ego. ||Pause||
ਜਾਗਤ ਰਹੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਬਦੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ जागत रहे तिनी प्रभु पाइआ सबदे हउमै मारी ॥ Jāgaṯ rahe ṯinī parabẖ pā▫i▫ā sabḏe ha▫umai mārī. Those who remain wakeful obtain God; through the Word of the Shabad, they conquer their ego.
ਗਿਰਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਤਤ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ गिरही महि सदा हरि जन उदासी गिआन तत बीचारी ॥ Girhī mėh saḏā har jan uḏāsī gi▫ān ṯaṯ bīcẖārī. <B>Immersed in family life, the Lord's humble servant ever remains detached; he reflects upon the essence of spiritual wisdom. </B>
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥੨॥ सतिगुरु सेवि सदा सुखु पाइआ हरि राखिआ उर धारी ॥२॥ Saṯgur sev saḏā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā har rākẖi▫ā ur ḏẖārī. ||2|| Serving the True Guru, he finds eternal peace, and he keeps the Lord enshrined in his heart. ||2||

GGS, ang 599