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Islam A Question To My Muslim Friends Here

badmash

SPNer
Jan 26, 2007
139
5
Yeah, we ought to make a video "What the Sikhs know and can teach the West" regarding this topic.
 

binnz001

SPNer
Sep 21, 2006
12
0
What happend to some muslims who were shouting so much in the topic" Quraan to Sikh Students" ???
No replies for my questions ? i guess i should put the same questions in that topic too.

WAHRGURU JI KA KHALSA , WHEGURU JI KI FATEH
 

amrita

SPNer
Mar 4, 2008
6
2
To you guys above that are saying all that stuff...

Doesn't it go against Sikhi to abuse another religion anyways? So why
even start? if Muslims are doing it, it means we should be like dem and
do the same? So in the end, what's the difference?

And binnz, everyone is going to have different interpretations, caramel
did try to answer them for you. But don't you think that no matter
what anyone says, your opinions are already entrenched inside of you?
It's like if someone tells me the sky isn't really blue, it's green...
no matter what they say, I'm never going to believe them, so what's
the point?

But how can you say that the Gurus themselves didn't accept Muslims?
Was it not Guru Nanak himself that made the trip to Mecca? And what
about those respected Muslims who are mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth
Sahib? Bhagat Fareed, Bhagat Kabir? So are they just 'exceptions' for you?
You're basing your opinions on some rejects from their own religion. I actually
think that Islam is nothing compared to what it probably was back in the day. I think it is the most distorted religion among them all, and you can't blame those kids who grow up like that, because hey we all were impressionable at that age. And also, Islam is much larger in size in it's number than Sikhism, so hell if it has its problems, it'll show. Sikhism still has a bit of problems with those dheras with fake 'Gurus' springing up every so often trying to mislead people, and also the caste thing dividing us up at times. But hating on them won't do any good, will it? Hate only begets hate. I mean aren't we as Sikhs, better than being hateful? I mean what's the point anyways? If you taught your child to be kind to everyone and a Muslim did the same, then hey wouldn't that go somewhere rather than teaching them hate, which will just repeat what's happening right now? I know now you'll say "but why don't you tell that to the Muslims, they're the ones who need to change", but you don't need a reason to do the right thing, you just do it because you are right. I trully believe that they aren't even true "Muslims" because they aren't treating people with respect. Even their own Prophet Muhammad didn't enforce Islam on the Christian and Jewish communities in Medina back in those days... so who are they to do that now to anyone else? So how can they even be called proper Muslims if they use force? It's just all misinterpretations and stereotyping. And just for the record, I am not an Islam scholar or study it insanely, but I am a religious studies minor in University so I do know a thing or too, and this class is not taught by a Muslim or in a mosque so I do have some open-mindedness and propaganda free thoughts.

I know by now, some sikh guy is going to say "Oh that's how they get you,
with their Muslim propaganda" or "you're probably in love with some Muslim
dude that's why you're defending them", but that's not the case at all.
I do not have any sort of relationship with a muslim boy, and none have come to me in hopes to convert me. But I do have friends from that faith
and I can honestly say that this whole sikh - muslim tension is HUGE in UK
for some reason... I have never come across any sort of problem between the Sikh and Muslim communties in Canada. I kind of feel sorry that you can't learn from each other because even the great Gurus themselves shared friends among both Hinduism and Islam.

Anyways, whatever you have heard on the news is also someone else's opinion. Always remember that. The only person who won't mess with your mind is yourself. It's true you can't trust anyone, but it would also be a shame if because of a select few, all of us were blamed?
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
1,649
To you guys above that are saying all that stuff...

Doesn't it go against Sikhi to abuse another religion anyways? So why
even start?
um, no.
if Muslims are doing it, it means we should be like dem and
do the same? So in the end, what's the difference?
we are spreading the truth and they are not.
And binnz, everyone is going to have different interpretations, caramel
did try to answer them for you. But don't you think that no matter
what anyone says, your opinions are already entrenched inside of you?
I think Binnz answered Caramel. It wasn't his opinion, people who have read the Quran know this.
It's like if someone tells me the sky isn't really blue, it's green...
no matter what they say, I'm never going to believe them, so what's
the point?
That's exactly how Muslims think except they think the sky is green, and their apostates tell them it's blue.
But how can you say that the Gurus themselves didn't accept Muslims?
Was it not Guru Nanak himself that made the trip to Mecca?
Our gurus accepted all humans but not all religions. Visiting a place means nothing.
And what about those respected Muslims who are mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth
Sahib? Bhagat Fareed, Bhagat Kabir? So are they just 'exceptions' for you?
They weren't Muslims according to the Quran. They go against the beliefs of Quran in many ways. But we do respect that they were raised as Muslims, because we have no problem with it. Like I said it's just the religion, not the people.
You're basing your opinions on some rejects from their own religion.
You'll be surprised at how many there are.
I actually think that Islam is nothing compared to what it probably was back in the day.
YA, ur right! I definetly isn't what is used to be, it got less violent. :)
I think it is the most distorted religion among them all, and you can't blame those kids who grow up like that, because hey we all were impressionable at that age. And also, Islam is much larger in size in it's number than Sikhism, so hell if it has its problems, it'll show.
Okee Dokee.
Sikhism still has a bit of problems with those dheras with fake 'Gurus' springing up every so often trying to mislead people, and also the caste thing dividing us up at times.
That's punjabi culture, etc and has nothing to do with Sikhism.
But hating on them won't do any good, will it?
Nope, and I personally dont hate them, just their book/religion.
Hate only begets hate. I mean aren't we as Sikhs, better than being hateful? I mean what's the point anyways?
We are Sikhs and we are supposed to love the whole of human race.
If you taught your child to be kind to everyone and a Muslim did the same, then hey wouldn't that go somewhere rather than teaching them hate, which will just repeat what's happening right now?
If a Muslim told his/her child to be kind to EVERYONE, then He/She is not really following Quran.
I know now you'll say "but why don't you tell that to the Muslims, they're the ones who need to change", but you don't need a reason to do the right thing, you just do it because you are right.
Now you are getting it! That's why Binnz started the thread.
I trully believe that they aren't even true "Muslims" because they aren't treating people with respect. Even their own Prophet Muhammad didn't enforce Islam on the Christian and Jewish communities in Medina back in those days... so who are they to do that now to anyone else?
You would be SURPRISED at what Muhammad (peace be upon him) did back in the day!
So how can they even be called proper Muslims if they use force? It's just all misinterpretations and stereotyping.
Read the Quran.
And just for the record, I am not an Islam scholar or study it insanely,
I can tell.
but I am a religious studies minor in University so I do know a thing or too, and this class is not taught by a Muslim or in a mosque so I do have some open-mindedness and propaganda free thoughts.
Read zee Quran. You will get enlightened!
I know by now, some sikh guy is going to say "Oh that's how they get you,
with their Muslim propaganda" or "you're probably in love with some Muslim
dude that's why you're defending them", but that's not the case at all.
Okee Dokee!
I do not have any sort of relationship with a muslim boy, and none have come to me in hopes to convert me. But I do have friends from that faith
and I can honestly say that this whole sikh - muslim tension is HUGE in UK
for some reason... I have never come across any sort of problem between the Sikh and Muslim communties in Canada. I kind of feel sorry that you can't learn from each other because even the great Gurus themselves shared friends among both Hinduism and Islam.
They did and so do we!
Anyways, whatever you have heard on the news is also someone else's opinion.
Yes and the Quran, what about that?
Always remember that. The only person who won't mess with your mind is yourself. It's true you can't trust anyone, but it would also be a shame if because of a select few, all of us were blamed?
That would be very shameful.
 

amrita

SPNer
Mar 4, 2008
6
2
um, no.

we are spreading the truth and they are not.
You seem really sarcastic but anyways..

How can you be so sure you know what the 'truth' is? God knows everything, and I think we judge way too fast. I don't hold the belief that Sikhism is only true and all others are false. Personally I think there's good in every religion, otherwise why didn't we convert by the masses? We tolerate others, surely because there is something in their own faiths that is 'true' as well?

The Qu'ran is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib, so surely it contains 'some' truths, one of the major one's is the One-ness of God. I know as much as we hate to admit it, we share 'some' similarities in the basic beliefs, like no idol worship, God in One, etc. And whatever Muhammad did or didn't do, I frankly don't care because he isn't my prophet but if he's theirs, then fair enuff, no need to get all hyper over it. I mean maybe one day someone will say something about Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but I know the truth right? And they'll think the same about their prophet. So let em. And anyways, no one really knows except God. If I'm not an Islamic scholar, so what? I know one of the main tenets of Sikhi is to respect ALL. You should learn that. Even Guru Amar Das Ji who was kicked off his throne by Datu (Guru Angad Dev Ji's son) didn't go and cuss him off. You can't expect to have people understand you if you just use anger as your justification. I don't care what the Muslims are doing in UK, I'm Sikh and I think as Sikhs we should act decent. Why lower yourselves to become what you hate? In the end then there's no difference between you or them. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean you sound just like those Muslims who backtrash what we believe... whats the point? You don't gain anything.

And on a side note, I do know some Muslim girls (friends of mine in uni), who do believe that everyone is equal, and if they're going against their religion then so be it. But for them and their families, they are not. And it's not just in one religion, but in many, the beliefs of one won't make up the beliefs of another. I even know some Muslims who have bowed their heads in front of the Guru Granth Sahib out of respect, YES! Amazed huh? but its true, it happens. I even talked to one Afghani/Pak Muslim woman at the Gurdwara and she told me she loved coming.

So you see it's not always black and white. I don't know how the environment in Uk is, sorry I've never actually walked around the area, just been to Bham once. But I guess it's strange for me to hear all this because I've honestly never seen it happen... there isn't any tensions between any religious groups.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
1,649
um, no.

we are spreading the truth and they are not.
How can you be so sure you know what the 'truth' is?
I am not, but in the case of Quran is is quite clear.
God knows everything, and I think we judge way too fast.
yes, typical human nature.
I don't hold the belief that Sikhism is only true and all others are false.
OKee Dokee, I don't get what you mean by true and false?
Personally I think there's good in every religion, otherwise why didn't we convert by the masses?
There is, but in the case of Quran, bad outweighs the good. Good muslims look at the few good verses, while the bad ones look at tthe rest.
We tolerate others, surely because there is something in their own faiths that is 'true' as well?
No, because they are humans. Religion can be the root of all evil somtimes.
The Qu'ran is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib, so surely it contains 'some' truths, one of the major one's is the One-ness of God.
Not everything in SGGS refers to the truth. Like i said a "few" good things, the other 80% are still bad.
I know as much as we hate to admit it, we share 'some' similarities in the basic beliefs, like no idol worship, God in One, etc.
I admit it, we share some beliefs.
And whatever Muhammad did or didn't do, I frankly don't care because he isn't my prophet but if he's theirs, then fair enuff, no need to get all hyper over it.
But we should know what kind of a man He( seriously, peace be upon him) was.
I mean maybe one day someone will say something about Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but I know the truth right?
I don't know, what you know.
And they'll think the same about their prophet. So let em. And anyways, no one really knows except God. If I'm not an Islamic scholar, so what? I know one of the main tenets of Sikhi is to respect ALL.
Yes, I respect all.
You should learn that.
I have always known that , I have many Muslim friends, and I respect them.
Even Guru Amar Das Ji who was kicked off his throne by Datu (Guru Angad Dev Ji's son) didn't go and cuss him off. You can't expect to have people understand you if you just use anger as your justification.
I didn't think I sounded angry, if I did then be sure, I am not angry at all. Quite calm actually, it was a nice day outside, I enjoyed myself. :)
I don't care what the Muslims are doing in UK, I'm Sikh and I think as Sikhs we should act decent.
Yes we should.
Why lower yourselves to become what you hate?
Sounds like YOU really hate them, when you say "LOWER ourselves".
Become the Quran?
In the end then there's no difference between you or them.
Nope, we are both humans.
It just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean you sound just like those Muslims who backtrash what we believe... whats the point? You don't gain anything.
Do I really sound like that? I have no problem with Muslims just their religion. i know I don't gain anything, but I feel that I should tell you, that Quran isn't all that good.

And on a side note, I do know some Muslim girls (friends of mine in uni), who do believe that everyone is equal, and if they're going against their religion then so be it.
Hey, so do I and I really respect those beliefs.
But for them and their families, they are not.
Okee Dokee
And it's not just in one religion, but in many, the beliefs of one won't make up the beliefs of another.
Yes the beliefs of those girls doesn't mean, they are Islamic beliefs.
I even know some Muslims who have bowed their heads in front of the Guru Granth Sahib out of respect, YES! Amazed huh?
A bit, but I they were probably not Muslim to begin with. I'd like to see a Muslim scholar bow down in front of Guru maharaj, that would be a sight! Then again, I couldn't care less.
but its true, it happens. I even talked to one Afghani/Pak Muslim woman at the Gurdwara and she told me she loved coming.
Great! Sikhism is a cool religion, dont you think?
So you see it's not always black and white.
It is never black and white.
I don't know how the environment in Uk is, sorry I've never actually walked around the area, just been to Bham once.
Neither have I.
But I guess it's strange for me to hear all this because I've honestly never seen it happen... there isn't any tensions between any religious groups.
Seen what happened?
 

amrita

SPNer
Mar 4, 2008
6
2
lol, you know your replies actually made me laugh. wow, actually I apologize... I think I'm the one who might have taken you seriously. Sorry, I apologize.

But all I'm saying is, we should just use our concept of 'tolerance' to win over people's hearts rather than say what they believe is false. Think of it this way, if I just went over to someone and said "I don't think your holy book is right" , I doubt they would be obliged to have a conversation with me... but say I happened to say something more positive about how we're 'similar', then maybe the conversation would go somewhere.

I think the real reason we get ticked off at Muslims is because we desperately need that sort of unity that they have in their faith. Think about it, whatever they believe in is concrete, we should be the same way in our own religion. We often get so divided in the whole punjabi vs. sikh thing. I mean a lot of times I get asked why so many 'sikhs' drink when it's not allowed in the faith. How can we move forward in Sikhi when the Punjabi culture is so entrenched in these silly things like alcohol, and what caste you are? Why do we divide ourselves so much? As Sikhs we should know whats right and wrong and affirm it. But most of the time when people question us,who we are, we don't know the answer and just get mad at them for even asking... or worse than that, we start to adopt their views. It's a sad reality for us, and we have to change it. But I don't think it lies in picking at their religion, because frankly the time when I'll know all about Sikhism is when I'll go and share my religious opinions with others, but nevertheless I don't think I'll ever put down their holy figures or anything. I wont lie I have doubts sometimes regarding faiths, but as a Sikh I let it go and just respect it. But what I love the most about our faith is that we don't need to coerce people into our religion. We allow them to do what they feel, be what they want.

I mean what I find funny is, the amount of time and interest involved in searching for Qu'ranic quotes to prove the religion false or trying to justify why Muhammad is a false prophet or not as 'great' as they think could be better used in studying about our own Sikhi... am I right?
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
1,649
lol, you know your replies actually made me laugh. wow, actually I apologize... I think I'm the one who might have taken you seriously. Sorry, I apologize.
No need to apologize, I did want you to take me seriously.
But all I'm saying is, we should just use our concept of 'tolerance' to win over people's hearts rather than say what they believe is false.
Bang on! You've nailed it!
I had a Muslim friend who goes: I hate atheists, I mean I respect people who believe in some kind of God but athiests... (forgot this last bit)They are so miserable.
Me: So you don't like or respect them cuz they don't believe in God?
Friend: Ya I mean you gotta believe in some kind of God.
Me: But God created them to think that way. Shouldn't you respect that?
The look on their faces and whoever heard me was priceless!:D Two more of my friends were sitting there in front of us, one was a Hindu and the other Christian (and no I am not making this up, I really have friends from all over). They were surprised by my reply.
As for that friend of mine, he goes: I know but... (and remained silent after that)
Think of it this way, if I just went over to someone and said "I don't think your holy book is right" , I doubt they would be obliged to have a conversation with me... but say I happened to say something more positive about how we're 'similar', then maybe the conversation would go somewhere.
Yep!
I think the real reason we get ticked off at Muslims is b/c we desperately need that sort of unity that they have in their faith.
No the real reason I get ticked off at Muslims is that they follow a ******religion. And they do have some unity, but then again, so do Sikhs.
Think about it, whatever they believe is concrete, we should be the way in our own religion.
Concrete my foot, their arguments can easily be broken apart with some intellect.
As Sikhs we should know whats right and wrong and affirm it.
Right.
But most of the time when people question is, we don't know the answer and just get ****ed off at them for even asking... or worse than that, we start to adopt their views. It's a sad reality for us, and we have to change it.
Yes, I agree.
But I don't think it lies in picking at their religion, because frankly the time when I'll know all about Sikhism is when I'll go and point it out to others. But what I love the most about our faith is that we don't need to coerce people into our religion. We allow them to do what they feel, be what they want.
Agreed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
FROM A NON-MUSLIM STUDYING ISLAAM.



When reading the Qur'aan you need to understand the topic, so read a few ayats [verses] before the one you are being told to read.
I can say "SIKHISM IS RACIST AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE"
Page 30, Line 3
ਸਤਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਮੁਹ ਫੇਰਹਿ ਮਥੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਲੇ ॥
सतगुर ते जो मुह फेरहि मथे तिन काले ॥
satgur tay jo muh fayreh mathay tin kaalay.
Those who turn their faces away from the True Guru shall have their faces blackened.


Caramon ji
you are right, a few lines interpretted out of context leads to wrong meaning but you just shown how determined you were to attack the questioner. How you relate "mathe kale" with black community. "mathe kale" is an idiom came out of old tradition conveying" persons judged as respectless " Who taught you this ridiculous meaning.?If you were sincere to respond you wouldnt do it. Mulim brothers can explain what is asked in detail by giving right context to remove doubts of Binnz001 in this regard. Example should be reasonable anyway
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
1,649
FROM A NON-MUSLIM STUDYING ISLAAM.



When reading the Qur'aan you need to understand the topic, so read a few ayats [verses] before the one you are being told to read.
I can say "SIKHISM IS RACIST AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE"
Page 30, Line 3
ਸਤਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਮੁਹ ਫੇਰਹਿ ਮਥੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਲੇ ॥
सतगुर ते जो मुह फेरहि मथे तिन काले ॥
satgur tay jo muh fayreh mathay tin kaalay.
Those who turn their faces away from the True Guru shall have their faces blackened.


Caramon ji
you are right, a few lines interpretted out of context leads to wrong meaning but you just shown how determined you were to attack the questioner. How you relate "mathe kale" with black community. "mathe kale" is an idiom came out of old tradition conveying" persons judged as respectless " Who taught you this ridiculous meaning.?If you were sincere to respond you wouldnt do it. Mulim brothers can explain what is asked in detail by giving right context to remove doubts of Binnz001 in this regard. Example should be reasonable anyway
That actually shows how Hindus are racist towards people with a darker skin, because whenever someone, in a village would do something bad, they would blacken his/her face. Which would be an insult because darker skin colour would mean lower caste.
 
Nov 17, 2007
137
103
CaramelChocolate, as you are studying islam, what do you think is islam's view on homesexuals?
If you are gay living in a islamic state, how long can you live your life before being killed by relative or hanged publicly (e.g. Iran)?
Your brainwashing is almost complete as you are presenting more arguements against sikhism and have every excuse for accusations against islam (same used by islamic apologists all the time).
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,212
Why do you think CaramelChocolate's brainwashing is almost complete. Her comment was written more than a year ago by the way. What I read in that comment is a lot of humility. CaramelChocolate questions whether she is being too logical. She also questions the perspectives of other religions. She is asking questions. Perhaps to hear what others have to say and round her understanding out. Those are not the attitudes of someone who is brainwashed.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 4, 2005
4,502
2,743
41
INDIA
Why do you think CaramelChocolate's brainwashing is almost complete. Her comment was written more than a year ago by the way. What I read in that comment is a lot of humility. CaramelChocolate questions whether she is being too logical. She also questions the perspectives of other religions. She is asking questions. Perhaps to hear what others have to say and round her understanding out. Those are not the attitudes of someone who is brainwashed.
Antonia ji Caramel chocalte is not she.He is one of the oldest members of SPN.His views on islam were not always like that.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,212
Thank you for the correction. What were his views prior to the post we are reading. I though he was very "detached" in his presentation.
 

kay

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
77
0
Dear "CARAMEL" , im worried about you. probably your also on ur way to
b brainwashed & converted into Islam. We cant ignore the fact that muslims r brainwashing west these days. I have a seen a channel 4 undercover dispatches documentry & herez the link ..
DesiTorrents
dercover
if ur not a memebr here i can send u the inviatation so that u can join
this blog & download this file.
See this & i wud appriciate ur comments
Im sure u wud say, these r some people , but brother if these kind of
things r taught in a mosque where do u think this religion is going????

But im sure ur comments r going to be that not all muslims r like that
or again that stuff like that... I have one more question

I AGREE THAT NOT ALL MUSLIMS R TERRORISTS , BUT CAN U EXPLAIN ME WHY ALL TERRORISTS R MUSLIMS ??



NOW lets talk about ur reply....
1: So somehow u seem to agree that allah was wrong in all previous occasions that he made & allowed other religions to breed .... u urself say that by writing "
As per Islam, Allaah sent messengers to every nation but man changed
the word of God hence the need for new Prophets. Muhammad is the final
Prophet and because he was the final he was sent for all nations and Islam is the final perfect form which is safeguarded from this. See Qur'aan 5:3."

so this means that u accept allah is not the perfect he cudnt make a
perfect world right away ....
continuing on this topic , i wud wana ask u , is thr any other religion
that confirms mohhamad was the last prophet & thr shall b no one else
after him ? i mean , grow up man , its thr holy book , that has to write it , mohhamad doesnt even know whats written in quraan , he died many years ago before present day quraan came into existance..

2: can you show me exact surrah where this claim by you is written ??
"these people will go to jannah if they are truthful to their own religion." ??

3: I asked was mohhamad selling sex ?
u dint answer , i know what purity is , but getting others into ur own ideas by telling them if u follow what i say , u will get 52 virgins & rivers of wine in paradise ???? Muslims r not allowed to drink on earth but mayb when they die for islam they will get rivers of wine , this means allah is a wine addict ?

& 52 virgins if u follow what i say , isnt that selling sex ?

So, i guess the bottom line is mayb u also agree that these might b
"NOT SO GOOD" teaching of an old & orthodox islam but i think u r too
rigid to accept that some other faith was wrong in some of its saying , please be sure that i really dont blame mohhamad for all that , coz even he doesnt know whats written in quraan , mayb he wanted to teach
something else & that got to the book in some other sense. I am proud
that Guru Granth Sahib provides us with a first hand Bani of our Gurus.
No other holy book of any other religion is written & complied by the gurus/prophets/gods behind it.


So,any muslim is really ready to answer my questions in detail ? I need to understand some of the above points better..


WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA , WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH......
You are saying that we are brainwashed, brainwashing simply means people are believing in something which isn't true. So what do we believe that is not true, why dont you proove us wrong? The Quran challenges you to find at least 1 contradiction in it. You can try your best, you may think you found one, but you will be proven wrong sooner or later. I show you two contradictions in your religion:

Before the creation of the world) for endless eons, there was only utter darkness. There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam. There was no day or night, no moon or sun; Vaheguru sat in primal, (like) in profound undisturbed meditation. ||1||”

If you know the Big bang theory, they will know that their quotation that their holy book states does not go with that theory. For the big bang happened from a single point, therefore, anything before it was nothing, therefore no darkness existed. However, if they say after the big bang there was only darkness they are wrong again, because after the big bang, dust and gases went everywhere, in that period after the big bang, which is also known as the opaque period, this is when the universe was filled with neutral hydrogen, which absorbs optical light.

You Yourself created the earth, and the two lamps of the sun and the moon” (Guru Granth Sahib, 83)

http://www.realsikhism.com/science.html

By saying “the two lamps of the sun and the moon”, it seems like the author is saying that the moon as a lamp also, as in the moon give light just as the lamp does. But if one examines the similarity between the sun, the moon and a lamp, they will conclude with the following:

The sun is like a lamp is a perfect fit, because just like the sun produces light and heat, so does a lamp does the same.

The moon is like a lamp is not a perfect fit but an inaccuracy, because the moon don’t produces light or heat, it only reflects light off the sun. Further more, the moon as an affect with the tides unlike a lamp which doesn’t.

The fact that the moon is never the same when looked upon my your eye in the night, should imply that the moon cannot have it own light, and hence the terms eclipse, full moon and new moon.

Some of you may say that this is just a metaphor; however it would be inaccurate to put it down simply as that, especially because of the context that it’s in. The quotation above implies that the sun and the moon are both lamps in the same sense, but as stated above this cannot be true.


Now, the Quran on the other hand says that the sun is like a lamp and that the moon borrows light off it.

Sorry, I am always open to the truth, but this cannot be the truth. truth is one, there cannot be more than 1 truth. You need to find it.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
1,649
You are saying that we are brainwashed, brainwashing simply means people are believing in something which isn't true.
Yep
So what do we believe that is not true, why dont you proove us wrong?
Okee Dokee, if you really want us to.
The Quran challenges you to find at least 1 contradiction in it.
Challenge accepted. :)
Contradictions in the Qur'an

The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.
  • What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
    • "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
    • "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
    • "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
    • "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
    • "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
  • Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
    • "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
    • "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
    • "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
    • Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
  • The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
    • "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
    • "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
    • "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
  • Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
    • Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
    • The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
  • Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
    • "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    • "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
    • None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
    • When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
  • Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
    • "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
    • Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
  • Is wine consumption good or bad?
    • O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
    • (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
    • Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
taken from : Contradictions in the Qur'an, Koran

You can try your best, you may think you found one, but you will be proven wrong sooner or later.
hmm...
I show you two contradictions in your religion:
Nice! I want to see them!!! Really! :wink:
Before the creation of the world) for endless eons, there was only utter darkness. There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam. There was no day or night, no moon or sun; Vaheguru sat in primal, (like) in profound undisturbed meditation. ||1||”

If you know the Big bang theory, they will know that their quotation that their holy book states does not go with that theory. For the big bang happened from a single point, therefore, anything before it was nothing, therefore no darkness existed. However, if they say after the big bang there was only darkness they are wrong again, because after the big bang, dust and gases went everywhere, in that period after the big bang, which is also known as the opaque period, this is when the universe was filled with neutral hydrogen, which absorbs optical light.
This is the contradiction?? :}:): Come on, I thought you could do better.

You Yourself created the earth, and the two lamps of the sun and the moon” (Guru Granth Sahib, 83)
Post the full verse please. :)
http://www.realsikhism.com/science.html

By saying “the two lamps of the sun and the moon”, it seems like the author is saying that the moon as a lamp also, as in the moon give light just as the lamp does. But if one examines the similarity between the sun, the moon and a lamp, they will conclude with the following:

The sun is like a lamp is a perfect fit, because just like the sun produces light and heat, so does a lamp does the same.

The moon is like a lamp is not a perfect fit but an inaccuracy, because the moon don’t produces light or heat, it only reflects light off the sun. Further more, the moon as an affect with the tides unlike a lamp which doesn’t.

The fact that the moon is never the same when looked upon my your eye in the night, should imply that the moon cannot have it own light, and hence the terms eclipse, full moon and new moon.

Some of you may say that this is just a metaphor; however it would be inaccurate to put it down simply as that, especially because of the context that it’s in. The quotation above implies that the sun and the moon are both lamps in the same sense, but as stated above this cannot be true.

Post the full verse then we will see if it is context or not, and it is a metaphor. A lamp is something that glows. We both know that the Sun and the Moon glow. you are wrong the Sun does not burn on fuel so it is not a lamp either. This is why it is a metahphor but like I said, post the full verse if you want to see it in context.

Now, the Quran on the other hand says that the sun is like a lamp and that the moon borrows light off it.
No quote to back you up???

Sorry, I am always open to the truth, but this cannot be the truth. truth is one, there cannot be more than 1 truth. You need to find it.
sat sri Akal, God's name is the truth.
 
Nov 17, 2007
137
103
kay,
Quran and SGGS are books of faith, not some science books. You take some lines from both books and try to prove one book wrong and one right.
While debating, truth doesn't always win, but sometime good debater wins. Surf intenet and you will find load of contradictions to your claims. I am not a science guy and I would not read quran or SGGS for science, nor should you.
Religions are based on faith and faith does not go well with reasoning. Your book talk about fairies and then you try to prove that quran is truth. You are trying to use your brilliance not to find truth but to prove that some fairy tale book is right.
You are lucky that quran is written in arabic where every sentance from Mohamad's time can be translated to many meanings. When earth was known to be flat in past, quran was translated to state that earth is flat. Now it is known that earth is round, these people can twist the words to prove quran says it is round.
Every few centuries, science is changing its version of origin of universe. Current version is big bang theory. Islamic missionaries are translating arabic quran to prove that quran supports big bang theory. So if in future big bang theory is proven wrong, would you accept quran as false?
I don't think so! Then arabs have lot of oil money and full time scholars to get new meanings of arabic quran.
And Kay, don't you believe sun and moon are created by God (or Allah)? Guru here is not trying to teach us science but telling us glory of Allah or God.
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਦੁਇ ਦੀਵੇ
You Yourself created the earth, and the two lamps of the sun and the moon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kay

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
77
0
Yep

Okee Dokee, if you really want us to.

Challenge accepted. :)
Contradictions in the Qur'an

The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.
  • What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
    • "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
    • "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
    • "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
    • "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
    • "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
  • Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
    • "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
    • "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
    • "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
    • Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
  • The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
    • "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
    • "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
    • "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
  • Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
    • Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
    • The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
  • Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
    • "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    • "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
    • None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
    • When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
  • Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
    • "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
    • Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
  • Is wine consumption good or bad?
    • O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
    • (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
    • Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
taken from : Contradictions in the Qur'an, Koran
Firstly thank you for your questions, i do not mean to offend you in any way. This thread did begin with an attack on Islam, and I am here to clarify the misconceptions.

Question 1. There were times when man did not exist. Billion years after the creation of the universe humans were created. In other words, we were nothing before we were created:
"Did the human being forget that we created him already, and he was nothing?" (19:67).
Man created from sperm and dust
The Qur’an refers to the lowly beginnings of a human being from a drop of sperm, in several verses including the following verse from Surah Al-Qiyamah:
"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)"?
[Al-Qur’an 75:37]
The Qur’an also mentions in several places that human beings were created from dust. The following verse makes a reference to the origin of human beings:
"(Consider) that We created you out of dust".
[Al-Qur’an 22:5]
We now know that all the elements present in the human body (i.e. the constituent elements of the human body) are all present in the earth in small or great quantities. This is the scientific explanation for the Qur’anic verse that says that man was created from dust.
In certain verses, the Qur’an says that man was created from sperm, while in certain other verses it says that man was created from dust. However this is not a contradiction. Contradiction means statements, which are opposite or conflicting and both cannot be true simultaneously.
2. Man created from water
In certain places the Qur’an also says that man was created from water. For instance in Surah Al-Furqan it says:
"It is He Who has created man from water".
[Al-Qur’an 25:54]
Science has proved all the three statements to be correct. Man has been created from sperm, dust as well as water.
3. It is not a Contradiction but a Contradistinction
Suppose I say that in order to make a cup of tea one needs water. One also needs tealeaves or tea powder. The two statements are not contradictory since both water and tealeaves are required in order to make a cup of tea. Furthermore if I want sweet tea I can even add sugar.
Thus there is no contradiction in the Qur’an when it says that man is created from sperm, dust and water. It is not a contradiction but a contradistinction. Contradistinction means speaking about two different concepts on the same subject without conflict. For instance if I say that the man is always truthful and a habitual liar, it is a contradiction, but if I say that a man is always honest, kind and loving, then it is a contradistinction.


QUESTION 2: Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5). "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
ANSWER 2: Yes, there is no compulsion in religion according to the Quran, and Muslims are permitted to defend themselves against aggressors and murderers.
The Quran promotes freedom of opinion, religion, and expression. The critic is taking the verses from Chapter 9 out of its context and present it as a contradiction with the principle expressed in 2:256 and other verses. The Chapter 9 starts with an ultimatum Meccan mushriks who not only tortured, killed, and evicted muslims from their homes, they mobilized several major war campaigns against them while they established a peaceful multinational and multi-religious community. The beginning of the Chapter refers to their violation of the peace treaty and gives them an ultimatum and four months to stop aggression. Thus, the verses quoted from Chapter 9 have nothing to do with freedom of religion; it is a warning against aggressor murderer religious fanatics.

QUESTION 3: The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
ANSWER 3: Many Prophets and messengers were the first muslims in their time and location.
If we check google.com with the following words: Olympic first place 100-meters and running, we will find many names of athletes who got the first place. If we use the logic of the critic, we would think that there is a great confusion and contradictory claims regarding the first place winner of 100-meters. What is wrong with that logic? Obviously, we need to consider the two important elements called time and space! Abraham was first muslim (submitter and promoter of peace) in his time and location. Similarly, Moses and Muhammad were too pioneer muslims of their times.

ANSWER 4: God does not forgive those who associate other powers or gods to Him, if they do not repent on time.
The Quran contains numerous verses regarding idol-worshipers or mushriks accepting the message of islam.
"He is the One who accepts the repentance from His servants, and remits the sins. He is fully aware of everything you do." (42:25).
Most of the supporters of and companion of messengers were associating partners to God before they repented and accepted the message.

QUESTION 6: Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: 'I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam).' (It was said to him): 'Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee!' But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
2. "Moses said, 'Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!' So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
ANSWER 6: Pharaoh was killed by drowning and his body was saved via mummification.
Verse 10:92 does not say that God will keep Pharaoh alive; it informs us that God will preseverve His body after he was drowned. We know that the pharoah has been preserved.
if you want answers to other questions, find it your self! if you are open minded and you want to know the truth, not argue your way around the truth, then I will find it for you.



hmm...

Nice! I want to see them!!! Really! :wink:

This is the contradiction?? :}:): Come on, I thought you could do better.


Post the full verse please. :)

Post the full verse then we will see if it is context or not, and it is a metaphor. A lamp is something that glows. We both know that the Sun and the Moon glow. you are wrong the Sun does not burn on fuel so it is not a lamp either. This is why it is a metahphor but like I said, post the full verse if you want to see it in context.
why dont you and proove me wrong? It clearly refers to a lamp, a lamp give of its own light, a lamp shining on an object does not make it similar to a lamp, instead it applies it light onto an object like the quran says:

"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (10:5)

The arabic word used for Nur means applied light or reflection of light! these scientific facts have been confirmd by top scientists in the world! example professor keith moore, dr maurice bucaille, .......

they have all concluded that there is not a single contradiction in the Quran with established modern science. Friend no offense you cant believe in somthing without proof. Otherwise anyone could claim they are a prophet, but infact they are completely misleading you. Its your decision, and you are accountable for for it.




No quote to back you up???


sat sri Akal, God's name is the truth.
 

kay

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
77
0
kay,
Quran and SGGS are books of faith, not some science books. You take some lines from both books and try to prove one book wrong and one right.
While debating, truth doesn't always win, but sometime good debater wins. Surf intenet and you will find load of contradictions to your claims. I am not a science guy and I would not read quran or SGGS for science, nor should you.
Religions are based on faith and faith does not go well with reasoning. Your book talk about fairies and then you try to prove that quran is truth. You are trying to use your brilliance not to find truth but to prove that some fairy tale book is right.
You are lucky that quran is written in arabic where every sentance from Mohamad's time can be translated to many meanings. When earth was known to be flat in past, quran was translated to state that earth is flat. Now it is known that earth is round, these people can twist the words to prove quran says it is round.
Every few centuries, science is changing its version of origin of universe. Current version is big bang theory. Islamic missionaries are translating arabic quran to prove that quran supports big bang theory. So if in future big bang theory is proven wrong, would you accept quran as false?
I don't think so! Then arabs have lot of oil money and full time scholars to get new meanings of arabic quran.
And Kay, don't you believe sun and moon are created by God (or Allah)? Guru here is not trying to teach us science but telling us glory of Allah or God.
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਦੁਇ ਦੀਵੇ
You Yourself created the earth, and the two lamps of the sun and the moon.
can you proove at least one of your claims, at the very very least give 1 example! Its true that the Quran is not a book of science, but its is a book of SIGNS! you cant believe is something without proof, otherwise anyone could claim they are a prophet, all prophets were give miracles by God to proove that they were true messengers of God. If you fall into error, you are accountable for it. I think you really need to get your facts straight.

Islam have many many enimies as you may know, there are countless number of sites trying to proove the Quran wrong, but not even one of them has suceeded, the site answeringislam has many articles from Dr William Campbell, just watch the debate with Dr zakir Naik and see this guy completely exposed.

You say that your Guru Granth Sahib is from God, I could write a book a say it is from God, why shouldn't you believe me. We need evidence, just like courts need proof or evidence, to make a conviction or not, you cant belive in something becuase someone has told you, or becuase you think you are correct. Learn some critical thinking, go to amazon.com and type critical thinking, this will help you a lot in life.
 
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kay

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
77
0
Here is a sign for you guys. This is solid evidence that Islam is the only true religion, there can only be 1 truth, there cannot be more than 1 truth!

If we observe the planets going around the sun, we can see that they are going around the sun anticlockwise, if we observe the moon going around the earth we can see it spinning anticlockwise, if we observe an atom we can see that the electrons spin around the nucleus anticlockwise, if we observe the stars in galaxies they are too going around its centre anticlockwise.

the sun is the centre of the solar system, the nucleus is the centre of the atom.

us muslims have to go around the kabba (black box in Mecca) exactly in the same anticlockwise manner, also the kabaa is the centre of the world! I really think it is, if you look at the world map, kabba is slight at the bottom from the centre, but the earth is spherical and tilted! So kabba must be the centre of the world, as pointed by a scholar.

This is proof, these sighns God sends to us, inviting us to the truth.
 

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