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A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

Harkiran Kaur

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

Harry Ji, for me it is very difficult to imagine that the Universe and everything we know 'just happened' - for you mention that the creative 'energy' was contained in the first cell of life... so what came before that and 'who' was the designer?? Things don't just 'happen' without a force cauing them to happen, even the big bang. And without 'instructions' the basic building blocks of the Universe coould never have created what we know to exist, including our bodies. Instructions do not write themselves...

I agree that the universal supreme ONE consciousness is beyond our understanding, but to suggest that it is unconscious of the creation is infathomable to me.

Sikhs strive to merge back with the creator - (I'll even use the term 'creative force' for you Harry Ji) But why strive to merge with something if it means you cease to exist alltogether? When terms like 'bliss' are used in the description, it doesn't suggest some unconscious merging of your energy after death with the Universe's energy. It suggests a CONSCIOUS existence, because well... you have to be conscious to experience bliss no???

I still believe, through what I read in Gurbani, that the base of all existence is ONE pure consciousness and NOT matter at all. You seem to be looking at the Universe from the level of matter as the base... but even scientists are abandoning this because matter dissolves the deeper you look, the stranger it gets and the very basic subatomic particles don't even exist in a set point in space / time without a conscious observer. If you believe that consciousness was manifest FROM matter, this leaves us with a very serious conundrum!!! Since our brains even, are made with those very same sub atomic particles, just WHO observed them into existence!??? Science now points to a field underlying everything and that field is pure consciousness.

I'm not saying that ONE pool of universal consciousness is like our human level of consciousness... because of our separateness, we experience reality in a very fragmented way, just like we can't rule out that plants and minerals are completely unconscious... they are just not as evolved consciously as us (at least in terms of physical consciousness - spiritual is different) You see, the further away from spiritual consciousness we get, the more emersed within physical consciousness. In that way, animals are very much more in tune spiritually than we are. But they have not evolved enough physically conscious to learn... concepts like compassion, we need to experience as human. So that is why I believe we experience 8.4 million (lakh?) births.... we evolve from the very beginning of physical consciousness but still very much in tune with the spiritual... but as human, we are fully emmersed in the physical, learn compassion, etc but are furthest away from spirituality. The real task now is, to take what we have learned as we have evolved spiritually, and merge back with the original ONE consciousness, fully conscious and aware, and possessing everything we have learned on the way.

In reality though, we are ALL just really the ONE consciousness, experiecing itself subjectively through many eyes (us). In essense, I believe that the ONE universal consciousness is in the process of 'waking up' through its own conscious evolution. There really is NO us. There is only the ONE.

Now since we got away from just Sikhi I guess I can post a quote from the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, which is said to describe the process of creation (note that the use of certain words like Sun and Moon are symbolism and not the physical sun and moon, and the process is not to turn lead into gold as many believe, but to attain the knowledge of the divine) (my notes are in red):

0) When I entered into the cave, I received the tablet zaradi, which was inscribed, from between the hands of Hermes, in which I discovered these words:
1) True, without falsehood, certain, most certain. (Ultimate Truth)
2) What is above is like what is below, and what is below is like that which is above. To make the miracle of the one. (note: ONE Also, the above 'God' is like the below 'us' and we are as the above... in reality we ARE the ONE collectively. We ALL contain the divine spark! In the same way, we also contain creativity!)
3) And as all things were made from the contemplation of one, so all things were born from one adaptation. (contemplation = thought of ONE....ONE supreme and universal 'entity' began to 'think' or contemplate)
4) Its father is the Sun, its mother is the Moon. (sun= light = divine light, spark... as in spark of consciousness. The ONE became aware of itself. Sun = divine light while Moon = individual light reflected from the divine light)
5) The wind carried it in its womb, the earth breast fed it. (through physical birth, creation was born)
6) It is the father of all ‘works of wonder' (Telesmi) in the world. (everything exists through and because of this process of awakening)
6a) Its power is complete (integra). (integra means 'important' it's stressing the power of creation in existence)
7) If cast to (turned towards- versa fuerit) earth, (become physical)
7a) it will separate earth from fire, the subtile from the gross. (gain awareness in the physical form, but being separated from the 'subtle' or spiritual)
8) With great capacity it ascends from earth to heaven. Again it descends to earth, and takes back the power of the above and the below. (cycles of birth and death, each time returning to the 'above' - spirit - with more knowkedge and wisdom and returning to the 'below' - physical - to continue evolving spiritually)
9) Thus you will receive the glory of the distinctiveness of the world. All obscurity will flee from you. (the goal is to learn, gain knowledge, gain compassion, love etc.)
10) This is the whole most strong strength of all strength, for it overcomes all subtle things, and penetrates all solid things. (by experiencing both spiritual and physical, we will surpass both)
11a) Thus was the world created. (creation of the world = spiritual / conscious evolution of the ONE. It is synonymous)
12) From this comes marvelous adaptions of which this is the proceedure. (ie: awakening)
13) Therefore I am called Hermes, because I have three parts of the wisdom of the whole world. (Hermes realized that ALL is really ONE)
14) And complete is what I had to say about the work of the Sun, from the book of Galieni Alfachimi.
Again: Reality is the process of the ONE Universal Consciousness awakening.....becoming aware of itself, subjectively through its own creation.

Now, my belief and understanding step away from dogma / ritual and more into pure mysticism and spirituality. I believe that every religion contains the truth, but hidden beneath the 'stories' and dogma that 99% of adherants believe. For example, the Genesis story is rife with symbolism and mysticism, and one could look at the literal story, which the masses were taught, but the few who knew the symbolism, knew the truth burried in the allegory. (an example, Eve's 'punishment' of pain in childbirth for eating of the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' was not literal like most people believed. It was not a story about an apple and a horrible punishment from God to last every generation from then on in. [Think why would it even make sense to punish one's great great grandchildren for your disobedience?] It is an allegory speaking of the 'birth' of humankind - where 'knowledge' lead to the birth of the human race and gains in technology advancements etc, but at the cost of 'pains' of that birth being poverty, famine, greed, etc.)

I just believe that Sikhi contains more truth without being wrapped up in so much allegory... (although there is still some when dealing with comparisons etc). Having studied many religions, I can stand back look at the allegory in all of them and I see these similarities!!! And most (if not all) make reference to some sort of process involving unfolding consciousness or birth of awareness through a creative spark, usually in the form of a 'word' or 'sound' (OM/Aum in Hinduism, The Bible says the Word was with God and the word WAS God, Sikhi speaks of 'Celestial Sound Currents' etc.) which point to vibration / frequency. Thought / consciousness too is pure frequency, scientists agree that vibration / frequency is at the base working of the Universe... something to think about!!!
 
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Kanwaljit.Singh

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

I was wondering how would a conscious God 'think'? What would he be aware of?

Will he be able to tell difference between a man and a woman? An adult and a child? Mars and Earth? I guess not.

A conscious God might have his favorites, like Israel over Palestine. This over that. Nope. God is not aware of the difference. Nothing is external, everything is internal to God.

I am afraid God is not conscious the way we want Him to be. God doesn't collect clouds and send it where there is drought. He will not send you food when you are hungry. You might think He has, it will be all indirect, nothing direct.

We are all conscious of ourselves, of our problems. Not of other's problems. We don't fight our problems as one force, but differently. Alone. If God was conscious, would he find the pollution on earth as problem? or the solution? You see, being conscious means you have to take sides. If you are conscious of your weight, you don't like the fat in you. But God doesn't see no difference if there are thousands or billions of humans on Earth. God just exists. By Itself. When the play is finished, there are no characters, only the Actor. And there are plays with just one Actor playing all the parts.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

I was wondering how would a conscious God 'think'? What would he be aware of?

Will he be able to tell difference between a man and a woman? An adult and a child? Mars and Earth? I guess not.

A conscious God might have his favorites, like Israel over Palestine. This over that. Nope. God is not aware of the difference. Nothing is external, everything is internal to God.
Kanwaljit Singh Ji, can I pose a question to you?

Suppose you dream one night that you are standing in a field....do you have a preference between one blade of grass and another, even after awakening?
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

Suppose you dream one night that you are standing in a field....do you have a preference between one blade of grass and another, even after awakening?
What if you are the person standing, the grass and the field, do you remember being there and back? You are always there :D
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

What if you are the person standing, the grass and the field, do you remember being there and back? You are always there :D
EXACTLY!!!!! That is how I try and understand how the creator might be 'consciously' aware of creation... by being immersed within it, by BEING it, and also aware of it from outside of it! As a dream... which is mentioned in multiple places in Gurbani:

Page 482, Line 15
ਜਗਿ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਜੈਸਾ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਸੁਪਨ ਸਮਾਨੰ ॥
Jag jīvan aisā supne jaisā jīvan supan samānaʼn.
The life of the world is only a dream; life is just a dream.
Further to that, the Emerald Tablet I quoted above, states that 'As Above, So Below' meaning we are images of the creator. In fact, all of creation is. Therefore we possess that same creative potential as the creator. So in that way we can on a small scale understand how the creator could be consciously aware of creation.... as an Author named Dr. Asoka Selvarajah (hope I spelled it correct) said in one of his essays, we are the 'little dreamers within the big dream'

Science points to the Universe being fractal...

Suppose that whatever character you are currently interacting in your dream as, goes to sleep inside the dream, and has a dream within your dream. Think on that concept for a moment....

Now..........ask yourself.......... "WHO is the dreamer?"
Page 86, Line 1
ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
Gurmaṯī āp pacẖẖāṇi▫ā rām nām pargās.
Follow the Guru's Teachings, and recognize your own self; the Divine Light of the Lord's Name shall shine within.
Now to end with a quote from the Oracle at the Temple Of Delphi (again illustrating this concept exists throughout different faiths):

"Man, know thyself ... and thou shalt know the gods."
 
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Luckysingh

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

I was wondering how would a conscious God 'think'? What would he be aware of?
.
The 'thinking' is done with the mind.
The consciousness does not think because it doesn't use the mind.
This is where we confuse ourselves because we attach the mind and brain to everything that needs to make sense to us.
The conscious just 'knows' in the same way GOD 'knows' the Truth.
 

Ishna

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

Personally I don't interpret that sentence about the world being a dream literally.

I always thought it was metaphorical. A dream isn't real because you wake up and it's goes away - it's transitory. Same as this life, it's all transitory and will cease to exist. That's not to say it isn't "real".
 

Aisha

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In Islam we have something called "Qadar" (predestination), the belief that Allah swt has control over all things. I am not an expert, but the basic concept is that everything you are going to do, or everything that is going to happen to you in your life, is already known to Allah swt and has been written down, and it will all come to pass. In this sense we can say that Allah swt is conscious, He must be if he is aware of His creation and what is going to happen to it.

I have seen people throw around phrases such as the "hukam of Waheguru Ji" (the Will of God), everything that happens is because God allows it to be so. I believe it is also mentioned in the Japji Sahib, that all are within His command, no one is beyond it.

The above leads me to believe that Waheguru Ji must have some degree of consciousness; He may not intervene in human affairs or give people what they want in exchange for acts of devotion, but it sounds like He is at the very least aware that we exist and has some sort of control over our actions, like He has placed certain limitations over them.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea who/what Conscious Creator is or what he/she/it means.
Can someone help me with the help of Gurbani and explain this please?

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

Here is where you and I differ Ishna Ji because I ultimately ended up following Sikhi for the fact that there is much less allegory than other religions. This life really is a dream...

Using the movie Matrix as a guide....

If you were in a dream, and could never wake up (at least until you die), how would you ever know you were dreaming? Certainly our dreams at night are so real while we are immersed within them, that we don't give a second thought while in there, that it's really a dream??

How do you KNOW for sure that this is real and your dream is not???

Given the fact that the way we experience this reality is through mere electrical signals sent to our brain to tell us this is what is 'out there' but the picture we have of this world is actually internal (visually, its actually at the back of our brain in an area called the occipital region). Now, would you be surprised if I told you that the exact same areas of the brain are stimulated when we dream at night???

So then both our dreams AND the way in which we experience reality are the same and are mere electrical signals... brainwave frequencies... measurable on an EEG. The only thing that is constant is consciousness...


Personally I don't interpret that sentence about the world being a dream literally.

I always thought it was metaphorical. A dream isn't real because you wake up and it's goes away - it's transitory. Same as this life, it's all transitory and will cease to exist. That's not to say it isn't "real".
 
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Re: A Conscious Creator in Sikhi and Other Faith Traditions ?

Here is where you and I differ Ishna Ji because I ultimately ended up following Sikhi for the fact that there is much less allegory than other religions. This life really is a dream...

Using the movie Matrix as a guide....

If you were in a dream, and could never wake up (at least until you die), how would you ever know you were dreaming? Certainly our dreams at night are so real while we are immersed within them, that we don't give a second thought while in there, that it's really a dream??

How do you KNOW for sure that this is real and your dream is not???

Given the fact that the way we experience this reality is through mere electrical signals sent to our brain to tell us this is what is 'out there' but the picture we have of this world is actually internal (visually, its actually at the back of our brain in an area called the occipital region). Now, would you be surprised if I told you that the exact same areas of the brain are stimulated when we dream at night???

So then both our dreams AND the way in which we experience reality are the same and are mere electrical signals... brainwave frequencies... measurable on an EEG. The only thing that is constant is consciousness...
Dear Akasha ji :peacesignkaur:

Does what you say though not suggest that it is our perception of reality that might be limited rather than that reality itself?

I mean human eyes have evolved to see the world the world in a certain variety of colours. We do not see the same as a dog sees, or an octopus. Thus we see different pigments in our vision, however we are looking at the same thing it is merely our perceptions that differ.

If God views the world from eternity, he will see it in an infinitely deeper and more sublime way than we can imagine; contemplating every event, person, happening throughout history in a single Present Now in which everything and everyone who has lived is as close to Him as this computer and the grey sky I am looking out at is to me right now.

Nevertheless the world is still real. If I see a dog, that dog is there. It is conscious. I can interact with it. I can have an effect on it, and it can have an effect on me. I may not see the dog the way another animal will see that dog but it is there and can be corroborated on the basis of others agreeing that it is there.

I, like Ishna, do not regard the world as a dream. This reality is the only one we have known. We have no other reality perceptible to us with which we can compare it to declare it a dream. We can declare a dream a "dream" because your mind is not normally in a sleeping state. We have another reality with which to compare it. In this reality we use our five senses and impact upon and are impacted upon by others, something that does not happen in a dream because it is experienced solely by ourselves, whereas this reality is made up of experiences we share with others, such as the sight of the hypothetical dog that I mentioned.

No one can declare a dream real because it cannot be corroborated. Only you had your dream. I did not nor ever will dream the same dreams as you. Therefore I will never see what you see and your dream will always remain a figment of your own imagination.

Our perception may be limited by our human intellect and five senses, however it is real as real as anything can be because we know nothing else and cannot know anything else because we are creatures made out of the building-blocks, atoms and molecules of this reality, with five senses and a physical brain made to interact with this reality. We are part of this reality, whether one likes it or not. This IS it.

Certain religions hint at a higher reality, a different one beyond this world. Some have claimed too have experienced this higher reality with a hypothetical spiritual, incorporeal part of their being. For them, this reality is even more real than this world because this reality derives its reality from that one, which is the Real that this reality participates in.

Since none of us - I assume - have experienced this said reality, it is not real for us. Only this world is real for us and holds any meaning.
 
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Harry Haller

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I personally think that to view life as a dream, which intimates zero consequence, is a very dangerous way to live.

Life is very real, the people around us are very real, and the consequences of our thoughts, actions and speech are very real.

I have lived life as a lucid dream in my younger years, it is a huge strength, it makes you invincible, but judgement day comes to all who live in this fashion, and there are only two outcomes, retribution or death.

Creation is beautiful, I am looking out of my shop window and I can see people, trees, dogs, a squirrel, this is not a dream, this is our one and only chance to get enough connection that we can see what should really be seen, hear what should really be heard, speak what should be spoken, and act as one should act.

Those that live in dreams are those that follow the same desires and needs day in and day out. They are dead, instead of accepting truthful living, they need to validate existence with baubles, false love, pride, ego, they are empty vessels living a dream, and they have no idea what it will take to fill that awful black void that keeps cropping up, that sense of unease that even with all the cars, the sex, the booze, the drugs, something is really missing, something that you cannot buy or steal, something that you cannot use to make others jealous of you, and that is simply the connection one gains through truthful living.
 
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spnadmin

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I personally think that to view life as a dream, which intimates zero consequence, is a very dangerous way to live.

Life is very real, the people around us are very real, and the consequences of our thoughts, actions and speech are very real.

I have lived life as a lucid dream in my younger years, it is a huge strength, it makes you invincible, but judgement day comes to all who live in this fashion, and there are only two outcomes, retribution or death.

Creation is beautiful, I am looking out of my shop window and I can see people, trees, dogs, a squirrel, this is not a dream, this is our one and only chance to get enough connection that we can see what should really be seen, hear what should really be heard, speak what should be spoken, and act as one should act.

Those that live in dreams are those that follow the same desires and needs day in and day out. They are dead, instead of accepting truthful living, they need to validate existence with baubles, false love, pride, ego, they are empty vessels living a dream, and they have no idea what it will take to fill that awful black void that keeps cropping up, that sense of unease that even with all the cars, the sex, the booze, the drugs, something is really missing, something that you cannot buy or steal, something that you cannot use to make others jealous of you, and that is simply the connection one gains through truthful living.

Harry Haller ji

What you have explained, described is more than your personal opinion. Your words are completely consistent with Gurbani. Life is not a dream and the world is not an illusion. When Guru Nanak says Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare he is not saying life is a dream. He is saying that we tend to react to our perceptions of the world (people, events) as if our perceptions and reality itself are the same thing. We act as if the dream is true. We become attached to our perceptions as if they are truthful, when they are false and misleading. When Guru Nanak refers to Maya as the veil of illusion he is not saying the world is an illusion. He is rather using "veil" as a powerful analogy for perceptions that distort reality and cause us to react and act wrongly. He says tear away that veil of false perception, because as long as it is there we suffer and cause suffering to others. When Guru Nanak refers to the terrible world ocean he is as much as saying this is a place of fear and suffering that is very real. Only Gurprasaad can save us from it. Therefore open up to that which delivers us and our families from that ocean of fear and suffering.

The notion that nothing is real and life is an illusion is a nihilistic philosophy which amounts to escapism which does not bring one closer to the sat. If Guru Nanak were saying life is a dream or an illusion, all of Gurbani would be nonsense. Instead Guru Nanak urges we find the sat in the real world through authentic connections with sangat and with those less fortunate. Our mission is to cross the world ocean and carry others with us.

Thanks for your inspirational example.
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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I think you have mistook how I am equating the word 'dream' ... I am not saying that life is not real.... however, I am also saying is that our dreams could be just as 'real' as this world (just on a deeper level). Certainly from our outside experience looking inward, they are creations in our mind. But to a conscious creator, could not this world also be seen in the same light?

Again, this points to us being as a mirror of the creator, and possessing (in a smaller degree) the SAME creative potential. (In fact that idea is supported in MANY spiritual paths - that we are made in the image of the creator... the Emerald Tablet of Hermes I posted above, has been for thousands of years a well known Mystical document that outlines that fact) That we are the little dreamers in the big dream. That is not to say the dream is not real.

Nowhere did I ever imply that the world is not real.

What I AM saying is that using the analogy of the word 'dream' to compare it to, is interesting because dreams require creativity. They require a conscious 'dreamer' and so to compare this world to a dream implies that the creator is the 'dreamer' having conscious creative potential. (When you dream btw you are NOT unconscious... you are just in a different level of consciousness - denoted by a lowered brainwave activity state... but you are still very much 'conscious' and able to create)

This thread was started to discuss the potential of a 'Conscious' creator of reality... and support for it in Gurbani, which I believe more than supports the idea that the creator is conscious of the creation. It wasn't started to discuss whether or not the word 'dream' means something 'fabricated / fake' or does it mean something 'created / existing on a different level' but I felt it was necessary to clarify that I am not in any way saying I believe the world to be 'fake' as to suggest that we can do whatever we want because it's not real. That's not the case.

I know spnadmin you and Harry were assuming that's what I meant. I know I am not exactly in your good books spnadmin, so I thought I should clarify before I get in trouble again.
 

Luckysingh

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Akasha ji, I know what you mean and I know you are just trying to forward an analogy of the dreams example.
We have to remember that when we dream it all seems so real until we wake up.
In the same way, we live this life until our true consciousness really wakes up to the truth.
That's when it will appear as a real illusion.- Trust me !
It is only after being in a coma for over a month that I realised the whole 'real' world is just an illusion and maya. I also understand what my conscious really is, but it's not that easy to explain.

Anyway, a while ago in the lyrics to one of my songs I wrote-
''Don't dream your life, but live your dreams'
 
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He is saying that we tend to react to our perceptions of the world (people, events) as if our perceptions and reality itself are the same thing. We act as if the dream is true. We become attached to our perceptions as if they are truthful, when they are false and misleading.
Very true :peacesignkaur:
This actually reminds me of something that Anthony de Mello, a Jesuit priest, once said. He composed a little fictional story about a master talking to his disciple about perception and reality:

"What, concretely, is Enlightenment?"
"Seeing Reality as it is," said the Master.
"Doesn't everyone see Reality as it is?"
"Oh, no! Most people see it as they think it is."
"What's the difference?"
"The difference between thinking you are drowning in a stormy sea and knowing you cannot drown because there isn't any water in sight for miles around."

  • Anthony de Mello (1931-1987), Indian Jesuit priest & spiritual author, Awakening p. 221
 

spnadmin

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Vouthon ji

This may be disrespectful on my part.

However, is there anything you have noticed in Gurbani yet than cannot be equated to something said by a medieval saint, Christian mystic or Jesuit priest?

Could there be a reason why Guru Nanak, who was fully aware of Catholic theology in his lifetime, did not simply say to Brahmins and Muslims... just pack it in because that is what I am going to do? Roman Catholics have got it right. There is really nothing more that I Guru Nanak can offer.

Because Christianity is greater in numbers than Sikhism it is quite possible to sweep Sikhism away by sweeping its teachings into a "friendly" faith with "amenable" thoughts and ideas. Hindus continue to try to co-opt the teachings of Guru Nanak and Muslims continue to claim him as their own. Until I have a chance to cross-examine Mr. De Mello I with-hold judgement on Jesuits. What about you? Is there anything in Gurbani that does not remind you of Catholic teachings?
 

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