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A Conscious Creator In Sikhi And Other Faith Traditions?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Harkiran Kaur, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer Thinker

    Jun 30, 2004
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    Akiva ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    That is an interesting outlook and a valid one. Could you please elaborate your thought on what is in bold above and its modus operandi?

    1.How can one share one's personal experience of one's inner spiritual treasures on the internet to the faceless world?

    2. One's awareness in what respect?

    3. How does one go about finding our Gurus' intentions and/or of all the other writers of Gurbani in the SGGS?

    4. Lastly, how can one use that experience and awareness learnt through Gurbani to enhance one's everyday's life?

    Input from all would be highly appreciated.

    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
    • Like Like x 1
  2. akiva

    akiva SPNer

    Apr 20, 2011
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    Tejwant Ji
    Guru Fateh

    The first "given" is that Spiritual experiences and awareness change how one perceives the world. The degree of that change is proportional to the degree of the experience.

    The second given is that Gurbani was written/taught by people who had undergone that change.

    the "quick" answer is that one can't - because in a real sense it's a non-verbal experience. When talking with another person who has shared that experience one can refer to elements using words (hence the personification and metaphor in Gurbani) and the other person will recognise the context you are refering to.

    Hence the importance of Sangat (in it's original intention)

    The most we can do to share on the internet (or even in person) is 1) try to describe the experience as simply as possible; 2) more importantly --let the lesson of that experience change us and how we relate/interact with the world/people around us.

    (As an aside -- there ARE scientific mappings of the "spiritual experience" space -- Grof is a good place to start.)

    I used "awareness" in the Zen Buddhist sense - both the "self-awareness" and the awareness of the world outside us, that comes when the veil of illusion is stripped away.

    As one progresses in meditation/simran/jap one (should) begin to have flashes of that awareness (by analogy -- outside on a dark night, when a flash of lightning briefly illuminates the world around you). As one progresses that awareness happens more often and for longer periods of time.

    The simple answer: by growing in Spiritual awareness. As one grows the meaning of Gurbani will reveal itself.

    For those of us without that insight: study and contemplation (which is, itself, a form of meditation/simran/jap) can also reveal insights and meaning.

    As we grow it should become harder and harder to do the "wrong" act, and easier to do the "right" act.

    But it's not automatic -- as long as we are here the temptations of the world/flesh are there as well.

    All the best
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  3. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel We seek him here,we sikh SPNer Supporter

    May 31, 2011
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    Veer ji ironically our Mool Mantra is a one liner ,a few words and our root.

    Ps I'm biased towards one liners
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  4. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur


    Writer SPNer Thinker

    Jul 21, 2012
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    At the Gurdwara last night I noticed on the screen, some words that would assist in this:

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P. 940
    This seems to suggest the creator does not only POSSESS consciousness.... but in fact IS CONSCIOUSNESS.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P.997 (I didn't quote the whole thing because there really is no other way to interpret the words 'supreme consciousness' however I put the page so that you can read the whole thing yourself.)


    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P. 1362
    Again, it is suggesting that our consciousness can be merged with a 'supreme consciousness' I don't see how the word consciousness can just be a metaphor in these cases. It's pretty straight language... and the meaning is pretty straight forward in suggesting that there is a supreme consciousness.

    • Like Like x 2
  5. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

    Jan 10, 2011
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    Hello Harkiran & Balbir - hope you good n living it to the T !

    ..it's difficult to comment without full coverage, but suffice to say, your observation stands it's ground and is further supported by the term "parm pad". Parm Pad is a state of consciousness that succeeds the three ordinary states. In other words, chautha pad, meaning the fourth state:

    ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ
    Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya. Chauthe pad kau jo nar cheenai tin hee param pad paaiaa ||2||: (O Lord) Raajas, Taamas, and Saatav modes are the creations of Your Maya. The man who realizes the Fourth State; he alone obtains the Supreme Status ||2|| [SGGSJ 1123].

    Goodnight !
  6. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Aug 14, 2012
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    Just read this it is a interesting article but I'm not sure I agree.. Would love to explore it further
  7. namritanevaeh

    namritanevaeh Writer SPNer Thinker

    Oct 14, 2012
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    One thing for sure. If there is a conscious creator, or we are part of the dream of a master pupeteer, then I personally can't view him or her as conscious (ie cognitive), AND omnipotent and yet also all loving. The 3 don't intersect as far as I'm concerned.

    If I were to view a single entity god as the "parent" of all humanity, creating everything and controlling everything, that would mean that that entity not only created Sikhs with their philosophies, it also created Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Christians (etc) and given the religious strife in the world, the number of people who die in the name of religion, that can't be all loving.

    THATS like a parent pitting their children against each other by giving them differing stories, and sitting back with a bowl of popcorn while they argue and kill each other off in the name of religion. There is no way I can equate that with "all loving" at all.

    Therefore, I surmise that any god that could exist is potentially omnipotent in the sense of power that can be unleashed in a tornado. Even the powerful fragility of a butterfly's wings, and yet that being would have to be lacking in cognitive thought. Therefore any arguing over religion and other stuff would be not its "fault".

    My other alternatives for gods is either polytheism and they admit their faults or "human like flaws", and a lack of complete omnipotence, or a complete lack of God whatsoever.
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  8. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur


    Writer SPNer Thinker

    Jul 21, 2012
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    I view Creator in a different way. The way you describe above, intimates that Creator is SEPARATE from creation. As in a different entity (meaning both entity as an individual but also entity as an organization). Something away or apart from us. This is not how I see God.

    Is a dreamer capable of being omnipotent (insofar as the dream is concerned?) being master or puppeteer the dreamer is the one who is coordinating the entire dream, creating every element within their own mind. Love is an emotion which implies duality (love vs hate). That means it falls WITHIN the dream and not outside of it (outside the dream there is only one dreamer so how could one either love or hate ‘itself’??? It knows no other and yet ALL others. Therefore human emotion is inconsequatial. The Creator creates, just as the dreamer dreams, the canvas being within themselves. God to me, is not some separate deity sitting ‘somewhere else’ apart from me. Instead, my body, my physical reality, my emotions, my actions are all contained within the dream of the Creator. They ultimately are not real. What IS real, is the I AM behind my body. That conscious awareness of BEING. That I AM just IS. It must originate from outside the dream or else there is nobody to experience the dream. That awareness of being, existing. That is actually the same ONE awareness within ALL beings who exist within the dream. But there is only one dreamer. That dreamer is God. Therefore the awareness in ALL is actually God. So you can see how I view Creator is much different than a separate entity who exists ‘somewhere else’ overseeing things as a parent...

    You can dream tonight that there is a tornado and everyone in X town dies. Now, did YOU the dreamer show a lack of love by creating that tornado in your dream? WHO if anyone are you lacking to show love for? Dream characters? They never truly existed. You created them in your mind. But they DID exist... however YOU were the consciousness who was controlling those characters. They were YOU. All of them!

    Gurbani doesn’t teach that Creation is actually separate from Creator. It teaches they are one and the same. That this world is a dream, an illusion. That Akal Purakh IS the chess board, the pieces, and the player all at once. That Creation emerged from the light (or illumination -> consciousness of God) and that the light (or illumination -> consciousness of God) is within All of Creation. The word ‘jot’ meaning literal ‘light’ can mean light as opposed to darkness which implies duality (and a need for physical eyes to ‘see’ in a physical sense), but can also mean metaphorically ‘knowledge’ or ‘awareness’. We all know and understand the meaning of when someone becomes enlightened, or sees the light. We don’t mean literal light as in opposed to darkness, we mean they have had conscious realization or a new awareness. When Gurbani speaks about the light of Akal Purakh being within all of creation it’s speaking of the primal knowledge of our true identity. That we are, the dreamer.

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