Women In Sikhi

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

If we just in point this on DNA, it means women and men don't have a choice or can not become aware of their actions, either through meditation/prayer or psychological analyses.

I would say being men and women we have certain impulses programmed into us. And we have to be aware of our impulses and not act on them. That can only be done if our mind is controlled by Simran. And of course we have to acknowledge that we have such impulses.

I personally think it is to do with the level of frustration and unhappiness a women feels and other factors.

Yes it is not that I have ruled that out. That's why I also consider the goodies which come with Punjabi culture to be of high weightage.

There then becomes a cycle, where as daughter in laws become mother in laws, they carry out the same kind of nastiness.

If the world has been bad to you, you can do either things... be bad to someone who comes under you. Or make a pledge not to have the future generation suffer the same fate as you.

Saas Bahu stories are always very much on the edge. It could start with something as simple as the son/husband asking for his wife's cooked sabzi's second serving.

Where even the nicest of women, have become quite nasty, because really inside they are unhappy.

I have seen an extreme where a woman with the most happiest life would torture her daughter in law, just to have sons and family's attention and be able to rule the roost.

Arrange marriages work for some, but can be very destructive too, especially if both involved don't really want one and may have been nudged, guilt tripped, coerced into having one.

I guess one has to be ready for it when they know that the arranged marriage is inevitable. Marriage will always come with some + points and some - points. We just have to make sure the + are on higher side for both people. But later is the marriage, lesser is the chance people are willing to change themselves.

Men can also be very nasty to each other. They put each other down and also bully each other. So is this their DNA?

I agree, but that bullying is so much part of how men hang together. In a group, all friends would make fun of each other. Same at work place. You always know who are your true friends, and casual ones and ones total enemies. But you don't get back at them with vengeance.

Others who are wealthy, and because we are so hung up on status, show off anyway. Again all this is to do with the ego.

Yes showing off has always been the problem with Indian families. When I see the people in Western Culture, I respect them a lot for being 'anchored' in life, and not being a wild boat rocking around in the waves. E.g. they don't buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't like.

Also their is a huge sense of fear in our communities, built up through various avenues, so people take this out on each other.

Every woman also has a fear of some other woman taking over her role. Men have it too, but I think they can handle it better. The web is full of comics, jokes, videos etc. parodying it. There is some truth to it. I think women are more stronger when there is a graver issue at hand, while men find it easy to ignore smaller issues.

As Yoda says in Star Wars 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering'.

I love Yoda!

1. Are there factors that are affecting men and women's well being that we can do something about?

Most probs figure out when someone (ie your spouse) is getting plagued by a fear and help them combat that.

2. Are all arranged/forced marriages OK? Are both people really wanting it?

Sure if you are nearing 30 and still single, you might be wanting it

3. Why are our women unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)

I think that is the only answer which can guide people out of their miseries! Ego and jealousy will always keep you blind towards Guru.

4. Why are men unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)

Since men like to think they are earning for the family, and handling all its affairs, they
tend to be taken down by greed and anger more often.

Outside the scope of Gurbani and Gurmat, we might come up with points and plan of action. But it will not be effective as long as we don't have the khitch (string pulling) towards Waheguru.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I don't know about karmas from past lives. I know that here and now I have this compulsion to act. If I see an injustice it is my duty, my privilege, as Sikh and Khalsa to stop injustice, peacefully if possible, using violence if necessary.

I find it especially annoying when a Sardarni is abused. Our Gurus made it clear that women are not to be mistreated. If a singh cannot or will not treat his wife properly, how can he be trusted to protect other women? It is up to us women to put an end to this nonsense. We need to learn self-defence and see to it that our daughters learn, as well.

And, also, we need to refuse to kill our daughters. That is the ultimate disrespect.

Harry ji is right, BTW, Naamsimiran ji. No apologies are necessary. You are making good sense. We women are taught to feel guilty every time we open our mouths and don't just go along.

I hereby proclaim that no Sikh woman need ever feel guilty for politely speaking her mind. I don't much like rudeness, but will accept it, if courtesy doesn't work.

There! Now that is done.cheerleader

 

[Naamsimiran]

Sat Naam Jio

I agree with both of the above.
It is good to know people are at least thinking and discussing theses points.

When I referred to DNA in reference to Kanwaljit Ji, I meant I am not sure the whole 'women against women' is part of their DNA as men do this too. But I do agree with Kanwaljit's second point that both men and women have certain impulses.

That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA. You cannot change it. And the punjabi culture doesn't help either. You need a freakin' high level of enlightenment to realize your actions!

As for Punjabi culture. Yes there are many things that are part of specific to Punjabi culture, which indeed doesn't help. But also some of these things are common to lots of cultures. Like gossiping and putting people down. That is universal! And is more likely to do with the Ego and other impulses.

I would add that culture and consciousness is also fluid and the next generation and can work towards breaking cycles of the past. It is challenging, but can be done. Like Kanwaljit Ji says by doing Simiran and becoming aware of these things, having such discussions, and having the heart to change it or not put up with it.

Kanwaljit's second quote.
I would say being men and women we have certain impulses programmed into us. And we have to be aware of our impulses and not act on them. That can only be done if our mind is controlled by Simran. And of course we have to acknowledge that we have such impulses.

Thanks Inderjeet Ji for your post. Very inspiring.

Sat Naam to all.

kaurhug

 

[findingmyway]

Yes showing off has always been the problem with Indian families. When I see the people in Western Culture, I respect them a lot for being 'anchored' in life, and not being a wild boat rocking around in the waves. E.g. they don't buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't like.

Rubbish!! If that were the case there wouldn't be so much debt in this country . If that were the case, people wouldn't have to save all year just to pay for Xmas. Every culture has its issues and they are often similar as essentially all humans are the same!</pre>

 

[findingmyway]

That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA. You cannot change it. And the punjabi culture doesn't help either. You need a freakin' high level of enlightenment to realize your actions!

Kanwaljit, Thats a bit harsh and not a sentiment I would have expected from you. Are you saying all women are bullies but men are not? Are you saying that women have more vicious impulses then men as it is in the women's DNA but not a man's? Are you saying men are not as vengeful? I spent most of my school life bullied by males and a chunk of my work life harrassed by them so I completely disagree. Impulses are not part of DNA but part of humanity. To confuse the 2 is dangerous!! DNA may make you more susceptible to impulses but that is a different matter and is definitely not gender specific swordfight

Harry Haller
Kanwaljitji

That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA.


I have always admired your bravery veerji

Brave only is telling the truth. Hiding behind blame and biology is narrow minded.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Rubbish!! If that were the case there wouldn't be so much debt in this country . If that were the case, people wouldn't have to save all year just to pay for Xmas. Every culture has its issues and they are often similar as essentially all humans are the same!

There is debt because there's been an unmonitored giving away of loans. And the western culture is such to save little and spend more. They still don't show off. They spend it on themselves even if they have a hint of a want for a thing!

Kanwaljit, Thats a bit harsh and not a sentiment I would have expected from you. Are you saying all women are bullies but men are not? Are you saying that women have more vicious impulses then men as it is in the women's DNA but not a man's? Are you saying men are not as vengeful?

Hehehe I read the first line here as something 'expected from me'

I am not calling all women bullies. But yes there is a pattern on how a woman would perceive the other woman. And it is probably in the DNA of a female.

I spent most of my school life bullied by males and a chunk of my work life harrassed by them so I completely disagree. Impulses are not part of DNA but part of humanity. To confuse the 2 is dangerous!! DNA may make you more susceptible to impulses but that is a different matter and is definitely not gender specific

Consider these 2 scenarios, you as a wife need a watch and your husband plans to buy it for you. The next day your father visits you and gifts you one. How will the husband react? Now think that your husband needs a watch and you plan to gift, but his mother visits next day and she has brought one along. How would the wife react?

Personally (and I may be biased and totally misguided) I feel there would be a difference. I am not talking about bullying here. Just the way how men and women digest the changes in environment or their plans by other person of same gender.

Brave only is telling the truth. Hiding behind blame and biology is narrow minded.

I am talking about women vs women so there is nothing to blame 'men' for in this, is it?

PS: @Admins, isn't this thing really off-topic since long?

 

[findingmyway]

There is debt because there's been an unmonitored giving away of loans. And the western culture is such to save little and spend more. They still don't show off. They spend it on themselves even if they have a hint of a want for a thing!

I disagree. Christmas for example is not about spending more on yourself but buying bigger and better presents to prove you are the better person even if it takes you beyond your means. The showing off takes other forms to that in Indian culture but is showing off nonetheless.

I am not calling all women bullies. But yes there is a pattern on how a woman would perceive the other woman. And it is probably in the DNA of a female.

Consider these 2 scenarios, you as a wife need a watch and your husband plans to buy it for you. The next day your father visits you and gifts you one. How will the husband react? Now think that your husband needs a watch and you plan to gift, but his mother visits next day and she has brought one along. How would the wife react?

Personally (and I may be biased and totally misguided) I feel there would be a difference. I am not talking about bullying here. Just the way how men and women digest the changes in environment or their plans by other person of same gender.

In this case you are misguided as you are judging things from your limited experience. If you read psychological research, reactions are dictated by personality and culture and experience. All of these things affect both genders. Culture probably brings in the bias you are observing between sexes as you will likely be exposed to limited cultures close up. I have worked in Europe, Asia, South America, Australasia and Africa and this has completely busted sterotypes for me!! Looking at things professionally the DNA argument just does not fly. It is a huge insult to women the world over.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

In this case you are misguided as you are judging things from your limited experience. If you read psychological research, reactions are dictated by personality and culture and experience.

Any kind of research will be limited too! There is no research which has mapped the psyche of every human on Earth. Of course my crappy inputs will be based on what I have seen in life. Btw look at this research http://brainmind.com/Competition.html

All of these things affect both genders. Culture probably brings in the bias you are observing between sexes as you will likely be exposed to limited cultures close up. I have worked in Europe, Asia, South America, Australasia and Africa and this has completely busted sterotypes for me!!

I agree the more you travel, the better view of things you have.

Looking at things professionally the DNA argument just does not fly. It is a huge insult to women the world over.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further.

 

[findingmyway]

Any kind of research will be limited too! There is no research which has mapped the psyche of every human on Earth. Of course my crappy inputs will be based on what I have seen in life. Btw look at this research http://brainmind.com/Competition.html

Of course research is flawed but at least it is less biased than personal experience alone as it is more objective. It is also more easily extracted to the population of the world as a whole than a single person's social sphere.

I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further.

Of course I am insulted and so are many of the other women reading this! You are telling us that our 2nd X chromosome makes us mean spirited and cruel. Most of my personal experience with males has not been happy. Using your philosophy I declare males to be chauvinistic, selfish, self absorbed and cruel. And this is due to your Y chromosome.
Of course, this is a ridiculous assertion and I am sure you don't believe it anymore than I do but it is just as valid as what you are saying.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

I think you are taking my phrase 'in their DNA' too literally. I just meant it is something programmed into women, which like you said could be by the society too! I wasn't really talking at genetic level. I nowhere hinted anything about the Y or the X!

 

[BhagatSingh]

Oh the irony!

 

[Navdeep88]

_

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
"Of course I am insulted and so are many of the other women reading this! You are telling us that our 2nd X chromosome makes us mean spirited and cruel. Most of my personal experience with males has not been happy. Using your philosophy I declare males to be chauvinistic, selfish, self absorbed and cruel. And this is due to your Y chromosome.Of course, this is a ridiculous assertion and I am sure you don't believe it anymore than I do but it is just as valid as what you are saying."
_

haha findingmyway ji,
I think Kanwaljit Singh Ji may be going by the popular perception in Hindi dramas etc., and unforutnately some women are like that, and like you mention, some men are like that too. I think it just depends on how strong a person is as an individual, meaning how much they can bear, understand etc., before clicking into biological animal mode of insecurity and possessiveness etc.

 

[Luckysingh]

Gurfateh

Ladies, females or girls.
Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.
Just like James Brown sang Its a mans world--------I totally agree.

Although I say 'Its a mans world with a womans touch'

Behind every great man is ____________?
Well, sadly its us men that try to look for another man behind their own success, ignorantly blinded to seeing the real woman behind it.

Men refuse to accept, whether we admit or not.

I mean regardless of my chromosomes I have NEVER met a man that can multitask. I mean a woman can be often seen feeding the baby in one hand, cooking whole family dinner whilst havingon the phone a genuine conversation using the other hand ALL 3 things at the same time.
HOW does she do that?

A man can NEVER do that, that's why I don't know the answer of how she does it!!

But face it ladies, we can park the car using one hand and without turning around.


Sat kartar
Lucky Singh

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Gurfateh

Ladies, females or girls.
Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.
Just like James Brown sang Its a mans world--------I totally agree.

Although I say 'Its a mans world with a womans touch'

Behind every great man is ____________?
Well, sadly its us men that try to look for another man behind their own success, ignorantly blinded to seeing the real woman behind it.

Men refuse to accept, whether we admit or not.

I mean regardless of my chromosomes I have NEVER met a man that can multitask. I mean a woman can be often seen feeding the baby in one hand, cooking whole family dinner whilst havingon the phone a genuine conversation using the other hand ALL 3 things at the same time.
HOW does she do that?

A man can NEVER do that, that's why I don't know the answer of how she does it!!

But face it ladies, we can park the car using one hand and without turning around.


Sat kartar
Lucky Singh

These days, I have only one useful hand and I can do almost anything that a two-handed Singh can do, including parallel parking with finesse.

And ain't I a woman?

When the Punjab police decided I was the weakest of our group and so singled me out for special treatment, I, with Guru ji's help, won the encounter and came away with no permanent injuries other than a few scars.

And ain't I a woman?

When the chips were down in Delhi and we were under murderous attack, I pulled out my kirpan and cut the throat of one of the dushts - darned near decapitated the b*star*d, licked his blood from my lips and kept fighting.

And ain't I a woman?

I died two times during a stroke, was revived and survived with my left side paralysed. I learned to walk and talk and do just about everything I did before.

And ain't I a woman?

Don't you Singhs ever dare to talk down to us Kaurs or be patronising! We don't like it. We are as strong and capable as you when we need to be. If we were properly taught to be warrior princesses as Kaurs should be, you would be shocked and dismayed at what we could do. OK, there is one thing you can do that we cannot. We cannot father a child.

I was going to just read and keep silent but you Singhs need to be told exactly who you're dealing with when you show disrespect to Kaurs. Yes, we love you and want you and you really can be most attractive, but if you want to keep us, knock off the dissing.

Sisters! Ain't I a woman!


:swordfight-kudiyan::angryyoungkaur:icecreamkaur

With thanks to Sojourner Truth.

 

[Harry Haller]

Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.

uhmm I am not so sure, my mother and wife are both very strong willed, yet quite calm and compassionate. I think women have been put down through the ages, and it is only now that women are realising that they really are no different to men, and are embracing this. Centuries of brain washing is going to have an effect, and take time to recover from.

It is all in the upbringing and the way society treats you that gives you an idea of who you are, if your upbringing and treatment by society confirms that you are 'A' then no doubt, you will become 'A', only the strong minded break this programming and demand equality, the rest see it as their lot and get on with it, in much the same way that untouchables get on with it in India.

In our culture, girls have to see their brothers get treated better, more freedom, more respect, it boils down right to the expression on a new parents face when they are told the sex of the baby, the more enlightened could not care less, the stupid have been known to mourn when it is the wrong sex, or worse, abort. Given this mental treatment of women, it is no surprise that some women end up bitter and twisted, I would be bitter and twisted if all my life I had been led to believe I was second best, it has nothing whatsoever to do with women being different.

There is no masculine or feminine qualities, we are all just people, I am as plentiful in my feminine qualities as I am in my masculine, as is my wife, sometimes it is me that needs a cuddle, sometimes it is me that makes dinner and cleans up, neither sex has a monopoly on the way you feel on a day to day basis.

 

[Navdeep88]

Lucky Singh Ji,

I do agree with what you say, to some extent but I would like to elaborate...

if anything its a WOMAN'S world with a male facade. without the womb, the nurturing, the home... what would come to be? It's time the credit went to the glue that holds everything together, the FEMININE, which I feel gets ignored in our culture. and it deserves to be celebrated b/c the repercussions of not acknowledging that are leading to things like rampant female infanticide, domestic abuse etc being viewed as ok!!! Fellas need to hear this, and spread it to others b/c usually the abuse happens at the hands of men (sadly) and no woman kills her baby without her husband knowing.

-- THAT is the purpose of this thread, that the feminine deserves to be celebrated, and not be seen as weakness.


signed,
a girl, female, woman who plans to be very successful in a "man's world" AND to have a family, raise children etc. :grinningkudi:

 

[Harry Haller]

I am not even sure what is feminine any more, they say behind every successful man is a woman, but I know for sure Sian stands by my side in everything I do, not behind, as for nurturing, keeping a home, etc, she has taught me plenty about all this, when we first lived together, I was a bit miffed when my dinner did not appear magically on the table, or my socks were not put in my draw, to be honest, yes I was a bit of a pig, but no other woman had behaved like her before, so I guess I was used to it, I lost a cook, cleaner, sexual plaything, but gained a friend and equal, I would not have it any other way now, we take turns being 'masculine' and 'feminine' depending on our workload, and what is going round us.

The other month, we had dinner at a relatives house, after we had all eaten, the women started clearing up and washing while the men talked, in order to be polite, Sian did get up with the rest of the women, but I joined her, followed by my brother, and in the end, all of the men got involved with the clearing and washing, and then all sat down to talk.

Old habits die hard, it is up to all of us to change them, man or woman!

 

[BaljinderS]

Ah very heated debate going on here. peacesign

I think we all agree that Sikhi is not to blame. All these emotional,physical abuses arise from how you have been baught up, the kind of people you associate with and your role models,culture,poverty.

They are equally strong men and women (I don't just mean in the physical sense).

Men and women get influenced by what they see on TV, read in magazines and then the problems start. I think we can all do with a reality check (I hope you see the funny side winkingmunda). People should focus on themselves and not worry about what others think (I know that's easier said then done)

 

[Luckysingh]

Gurfateh

If you read my post with care, you may notice the message I was trying to give was one of poking fun at us males. Men do, as a majority feel that they are superior to women. I was trying to state that this ignorant attitude is simply what it says- ignorant. The fact is without women majority of us would be completely lost. This is what makes men different, they are not capable in many capacities as much as women.

Its sad though that gender predjudice still goes on to this day even in sikhism.
Yes, I know many will try to clarify this insisting we are the fairest faith. Yes, we are supposed to be,but in reality in the background this predjudice still goes on.
Like I say, most us men are too ignorant to notice, but the women DO feel it but just put up and get on with it.

Recently a male friend of mine got married. I won't mention where, which country etc for his deserved privacy.
He is probably one of the most fairest characters on this planet. He did though cause quite a bit of controversy in deliberation.

1st he decided to marry outside his cast-( into a so called lower caste) much to the anger of elders. He was proud of this example he felt he should set just as a wake up call for his elders.
2ndly was the actual ceremony. Now, I believe the rehat maryada states that the man should lead in the process of the lama(pherei).
He felt this as being sexist. Most of us actually just accept it with ignorance I suppose.

Again, upsetting the elders and Giani-no doubt, the couple actually took it in turns to lead!! So, 2 lama with the man leading and 2 with the woman leading- fair enough, I say.
You can imagine the talk, I heard it all, from comments like it's not valid,its illegal,against sikhi, its a circus, the girl is meant to follow as she settles in his house ( even though, they had a house where only the 2 of them would both move together)......blah blah.....-I heard it all.
But, still many could only still give the couple nothing but praise and credit.

If only there were more people like this, that could bring such issues to attention.

I personally did not want to mention this event as a matter of respect. So, I would be even more grateful if I don't read comments of whether the couples decision was right or wrong- NO OPINIONS please. For the sake of the couples privacy I wouldn't want a further online issue.
Most people in the community were a bit shocked at first, but I feel they do somewhat applaud these actions.
When I spoke to him last he claimed that they had no regrets whatsoever and he even wishes for a daughter to be their first child so that he can distribute ladhu and celebrate lohri- another lesson for us to learn, as this is more commonly done with birth of boys.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.

uhmm I am not so sure, my mother and wife are both very strong willed, yet quite calm and compassionate. I think women have been put down through the ages, and it is only now that women are realising that they really are no different to men, and are embracing this.

Harry ji.

This is exactly what i'm saying.
As a man you read my quote stating that men are different to women.
Immediately (as a man) you have assumed I'm degrading or poking fun at women!.....When i'm actually trying to state the opposite!!

Admit or not we all have some degree of predjudice within us. It is actually part of our EGO. This is what us sikhs must try to conquer within each of us.

I have said many times, that if God gave me a role change now, and made me a woman.- I would be NO GOOD, I just wouldn't manage. Yet, if my wife had to come into my shoes as a man, she would have no fear or any problem.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh