Why Should I Believe Guru Nanak?

[spnadmin]

aisha ji

To begin I do agree that ExploringSikhi does deserve a break, and for the reasons you give -- the Internet has become in many ways a source of buzzing confusion. Also, harry ji's remark about posting on a Hindu forum triggered something for me. We are considering the story that Guru Nanak was lost in a river for 3 days -- and emerged enlightened instead of water-logged.

In the vedic tradition, and depending on the branch of the believer, either Krishna or Shiva re-created themselves in water. Their identity is self-created. They are born in the all-pervading water - Narayan who is all pervading and formless like water. (Narayan again depending on tradition is either an avatar of Vishnu or precedes Vishnu, but in any case represents the all-pervading aspect of the divine.) From this the idea of re-birth in water symbolizes spiritual re-birth or awakening, self-created, from an all-pervading source.

It is my suspicion - obviously I have no way to prove it - that the sakhi of Guru Nanak receiving the gurgaddi after 3 days in a river originates with the vedic account of Krishna/Shiva reborn in Narayan. Guru Nanak would be the most unlikely individual to become enlightened by spiritual rebirth in a body of water; however I believe the analogy with Shiva/Krishna was invented by those around him who were deeply threatened by his challenges to prevailing brahmin beliefs.

Guru Nanak offers as Gyani ji has clearly explained "amrit" or spiritual rebirth in the nectar of Gurbani.

 

[spnadmin]

By the time of Ramanand in the tradition of the bhagats, the rebirth is seen in a different way (Ang 1195) ... and the sacred texts are no longer the authority, a different kind of encounter is described, and rebirth takes a different form.

ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਜੀ ਘਰੁ ੧
Rāmānanḏ jī gẖar 1
Raamaanand Jee, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਕਤ ਜਾਈਐ ਰੇ ਘਰ ਲਾਗੋ ਰੰਗੁ ॥
Kaṯ jā▫ī▫ai re gẖar lāgo rang.
Where should I go? My home is filled with bliss.

ਮੇਰਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਮਨੁ ਭਇਓ ਪੰਗੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Merā cẖiṯ na cẖalai man bẖa▫i▫o pang. ||1|| rahā▫o.
My consciousness does not go out wandering. My mind has become crippled. ||1||Pause||

ਏਕ ਦਿਵਸ ਮਨ ਭਈ ਉਮੰਗ ॥
Ėk ḏivas man bẖa▫ī umang.
One day, a desire welled up in my mind.

ਘਸਿ ਚੰਦਨ ਚੋਆ ਬਹੁ ਸੁਗੰਧ ॥
Gẖas cẖanḏan cẖo▫ā baho suganḏẖ.
I ground up sandalwood, along with several fragrant oils.

ਪੂਜਨ ਚਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਠਾਇ ॥
Pūjan cẖālī barahm ṯẖā▫e.
I went to God's place, and worshipped Him there.

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਤਾਇਓ ਗੁਰ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
So barahm baṯā▫i▫o gur man hī māhi. ||1||
That God showed me the Guru, within my own mind. ||1||

ਜਹਾ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਜਲ ਪਖਾਨ ॥
Jahā jā▫ī▫ai ṯah jal pakẖān.
Wherever I go, I find water and stones.

ਤੂ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਸਮਾਨ ॥
Ŧū pūr rahi▫o hai sabẖ samān.
You are totally pervading and permeating in all.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਭ ਦੇਖੇ ਜੋਇ ॥
Beḏ purān sabẖ ḏekẖe jo▫e.
I have searched through all the Vedas and the Puraanas.

ਊਹਾਂ ਤਉ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਉ ਈਹਾਂ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
Ūhāʼn ṯa▫o jā▫ī▫ai ja▫o īhāʼn na ho▫e. ||2||
I would go there, only if the Lord were not here. ||2||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਤੋਰ ॥
Saṯgur mai balihārī ṯor.
I am a sacrifice to You, O my True Guru.

ਜਿਨਿ ਸਕਲ ਬਿਕਲ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕਾਟੇ ਮੋਰ ॥
Jin sakal bikal bẖaram kāte mor.
You have cut through all my confusion and doubt.

ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਮਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
Rāmānanḏ su▫āmī ramaṯ barahm.
Raamaanand's Lord and Master is the All-pervading Lord God.

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਾਟੈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ॥੩॥੧॥
Gur kā sabaḏ kātai kot karam. ||3||1||
The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||

This from the bani of Bhagat Ramanand is in the house of Guru Nanak. Already a revolution had taken place. Guru Nanak however brought a message of rebirth that spread among the masses; it gained so much traction that he had to have alarmed the orthodox believers. They put him in a river, bringing him out an enlightened soul. Guru Nanak himself did not insult the sangat with far-fetched stories about his own life.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

It would be too much of an eye-sore to quote everyone who responded, so I will just send out a BIG THANK YOU to everyone who responded right here, I cannot express how appreciative I am of you guys putting in the effort to respond so eloquently.

I have been conversing with a fellow non-Sikh about Sikhi for a few days now. I told him a bit about the philosophy of Guru Nanak, like not believing in miracles and whatnot, as well as some other things (what Guru Granth Sahib Ji actually means when it talks about heaven/hell/reincarnation etc...). He also asked me why Guru Nanak Ji was considered a Guru, and I told him the same things Sikhs told me when I had asked, that he went missing for 3 days, had spoken (literally) to Waheguru, was ordered to spread the message. He was the one that said, well doesn't that contradict with the whole "no miracle" thing? I had never really thought about it before, which is why I wanted to ask, amazing how much you can learn talking with someone who has a different perspective lol.

I am afraid that is not all though He asked me other questions as well, I may as well just quote them word-for-word, everyone here seems really knowledgable on Sikhism, so I trust that the answers I get will be genuine.

1)

"Speaking of which, isn't Nanak emerging from a Lake in which he supposedly was commissioned in the "waheGuru's court" a sort of Miracle?

Without believing in such said miracle, you are stripping the authority (as you claimed earlier this was his claim to fame) away from Nanak."

Okay so obviously the first part about the "miracle" has been answered. But what about the second part? This person in particular is a Muslim (I am also spending some time studying Islam, so am conversing with Muslims as well). So you could say that his thinking is very "Abrahamic". Muhammad claims to have gotten revelations from the angel Gabriel, that is why he is an authority figure for Muslims. Christians believe Jesus to be the actual Son of God, that is why he is an authority figure for them. Jews believe Moses to have gotten direct revelations from the (Abrahamic) God, that is why he is an authority figure for them. In each case, the "prophet" has laid claim to some sort of communication with a divine source, LITERAL communication, like words were actually exchanged.

After reading through this thread, I have come to realize that this is not the case in Sikhi. Guru Nanak Ji, it would seem, did not actually claim to have "communicated" with God, at least not in the way most people understand "communication" to mean. Instead, it sounds more like Sikhism is his own personal opinion, after having been exposed to a multitude of different belief systems, after being witness to the chaos of the world around him due to the Mughal invasions, after seeing the damage hypocrisy does to society and people, he set out to live an honest life, do good for others, and instead of using religion as a means to divide people, he wanted to use it to unite people. Instead of making God an angry old man in the sky, he taught people to see God in all, that we are all the same, that we should treat others the way we would treat the Lord himself. Is this correct?

If so, what exactly makes him an authority figure? In other words, if Sikhi is his (Guru Nanak Ji's) opinion of the best way to do things, how do I explain to an Abrahamic, someone who believes that only those in direct communion with the divine should be trusted, that it is logical and rational to live my entire life according to the opinions of a man, a very humble and wise man, but ultimately a man who did not claim to have spoken to anything supernatural?

2) And his other question:

"What differentiates the Guru Granth from a book like the Communist Manefesto? (Other than the fact the Communist Manifesto has less authors and has had more of an impact on the world)."

Sort of ties in with the above. If Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a manifestation of the opinion of the 10 Gurus and other devotees of the best way to live life, highlighting what is wrong in society and how it can be fixed, how is it different to the Communist Manifesto, which although I haven't read, also does seem to talk about what is wrong in the world and lays out solutions to fixing the issues.

3) And my own personal question that I do not believe has been answered yet: In certain parts of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it talks about having your deeds read out in the presence of the Lord of Dharma and also about how you will be judged according to your actions. Examples:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥
पवणु गुरू पाणी पिता माता धरति महतु ॥
Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.
ਦਿਵਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤੁ ॥
दिवसु राति दुइ दाई दाइआ खेलै सगल जगतु ॥
Ḏivas rāṯ ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā kẖelai sagal jagaṯ.
Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.
ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ਵਾਚੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
चंगिआईआ बुरिआईआ वाचै धरमु हदूरि ॥
Cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā buri▫ā▫ī▫ā vācẖai ḏẖaram haḏūr.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.
ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
करमी आपो आपणी के नेड़ै के दूरि ॥
Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.
ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ ॥
जिनी नामु धिआइआ गए मसकति घालि ॥
Jinī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ga▫e maskaṯ gẖāl.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -
ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
नानक ते मुख उजले केती छुटी नालि ॥१॥
Nānak ṯe mukẖ ujle keṯī cẖẖutī nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||


And also:

ਰਾਤੀ ਰੁਤੀ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰ ॥
राती रुती थिती वार ॥
Rāṯī ruṯī thiṯī vār.
Nights, days, weeks and seasons;
ਪਵਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥
पवण पाणी अगनी पाताल ॥
Pavaṇ pāṇī agnī pāṯāl.
wind, water, fire and the nether regions -
ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਥਾਪਿ ਰਖੀ ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ ॥
तिसु विचि धरती थापि रखी धरम साल ॥
Ŧis vicẖ ḏẖarṯī thāp rakẖī ḏẖaram sāl.
in the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma.
ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਅ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੇ ਰੰਗ ॥
तिसु विचि जीअ जुगति के रंग ॥
Ŧis vicẖ jī▫a jugaṯ ke rang.
Upon it, He placed the various species of beings.
ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਨੰਤ ॥
तिन के नाम अनेक अनंत ॥
Ŧin ke nām anek ananṯ.
Their names are uncounted and endless.
ਕਰਮੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਹੋਇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
करमी करमी होइ वीचारु ॥
Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār.
By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged.
ਸਚਾ ਆਪਿ ਸਚਾ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
सचा आपि सचा दरबारु ॥
Sacẖā āp sacẖā ḏarbār.
God Himself is True, and True is His Court.
ਤਿਥੈ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
तिथै सोहनि पंच परवाणु ॥
Ŧithai sohan pancẖ parvāṇ.
There, in perfect grace and ease, sit the self-elect, the self-realized Saints.
ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
नदरी करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥
Naḏrī karam pavai nīsāṇ.
They receive the Mark of Grace from the Merciful Lord.
ਕਚ ਪਕਾਈ ਓਥੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
कच पकाई ओथै पाइ ॥
Kacẖ pakā▫ī othai pā▫e.
The ripe and the unripe, the good and the bad, shall there be judged.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩੪॥
नानक गइआ जापै जाइ ॥३४॥
Nānak ga▫i▫ā jāpai jā▫e. ||34||
O Nanak, when you go home, you will see this. ||34||


Seeing as Sikhi rejects the concepts of heaven/hell/reincarnation, and no one is going to "judge" you when you die, and there is no 'record" of your deeds since Sikhi (as per my understanding) also rejects the concept of sin, how exactly do you reconcile those beliefs with what is being said in the Shabads above? How are "the record is read out in the presence of the Lord of Dharma" and "by their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged", how does that somehow apply to THIS life?

I hope I haven't caused any offence, that wasn't my intention, I am just trying to figure all this out, as I am currently not educated enough on Sikhi to be able to answer these questions on my own.

Regards,

ExploringSikhi.

 

[spnadmin]

ExploringSikhi ji

Rather than causing offense, I believe you have started a thread that took on a life of its own.

:welcome: I cannot tell you how much I have learned both from having to think carefully about my own understanding and from the responses of other members. This btw is what should happen in Sikhi: there are no clergy and the pursuit of dialog about the very issues you have raised is central to growing and learning.

To be able to stimulate this level of conversation has been your gift to me. Now I await replies to your continuing questions.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

ExploringSikhi;

If so, what exactly makes him an authority figure? In other words, if Sikhi is his (Guru Nanak Ji's) opinion of the best way to do things, , that it is logical and rational to live my entire life according to the opinions of a man, a very humble and wise man, but ultimately a man who did not claim to have spoken to anything supernatural?

Sat sri akaal Exploringsikhi ji ,

for me Guru Nanak is authority bcoz i feel satisfied on living accordings to his words .

how do I explain to an Abrahamic, someone who believes that only those in direct communion with the divine should be trusted

Sikhis view of God unlike Abrahmic is Pan(en)thiestic . Mixing Abrahmic thought with Sikhi is causing confusion here . realization of Self is realization of GOD in Sikhi .
ਘਰਿ ਹੋਦਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਿ ਮੁਠੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
घरि होदा पुरखु न पछाणिआ अभिमानि मुठे अहंकारि ॥
Gẖar hoḏā purakẖ na pacẖẖāṇi▫ā abẖimān muṯẖe ahaʼnkār.
The Primal Being is within their own home, but they do not recognize Him. They are plundered by their egotistical pride and arrogance


moreover you can ask abrahmics "is their GOD shy, why HE gave message to Prophets thru some Angels or Jinns but not directly ?

Sort of ties in with the above. If Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a manifestation of the opinion of the 10 Gurus and other devotees of the best way to live life, highlighting what is wrong in society and how it can be fixed, how is it different to the Communist Manifesto, which although I haven't read, also does seem to talk about what is wrong in the world and lays out solutions to fixing the issues

do communist believe in Soul and Oneness with Supereme (Paramaatma )
?

.

3) And my own personal question that I do not believe has been answered yet: In certain parts of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it talks about having your deeds read out in the presence of the Lord of Dharma and also about how you will be judged according to your actions. Examples:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥
पवणु गुरू पाणी पिता माता धरति महतु ॥
Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.
ਦਿਵਸੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤੁ ॥
दिवसु राति दुइ दाई दाइआ खेलै सगल जगतु ॥
Ḏivas rāṯ ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā kẖelai sagal jagaṯ.
Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.
ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ਵਾਚੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
चंगिआईआ बुरिआईआ वाचै धरमु हदूरि ॥
Cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā buri▫ā▫ī▫ā vācẖai ḏẖaram haḏūr.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.
ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
करमी आपो आपणी के नेड़ै के दूरि ॥
Karmī āpo āpṇī ke neṛai ke ḏūr.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.
ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ ॥
जिनी नामु धिआइआ गए मसकति घालि ॥
Jinī nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ga▫e maskaṯ gẖāl.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -
ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
नानक ते मुख उजले केती छुटी नालि ॥१॥
Nānak ṯe mukẖ ujle keṯī cẖẖutī nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||


And also:

ਰਾਤੀ ਰੁਤੀ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰ ॥
राती रुती थिती वार ॥
Rāṯī ruṯī thiṯī vār.
Nights, days, weeks and seasons;
ਪਵਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥
पवण पाणी अगनी पाताल ॥
Pavaṇ pāṇī agnī pāṯāl.
wind, water, fire and the nether regions -
ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਥਾਪਿ ਰਖੀ ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ ॥
तिसु विचि धरती थापि रखी धरम साल ॥
Ŧis vicẖ ḏẖarṯī thāp rakẖī ḏẖaram sāl.
in the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma.
ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਅ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੇ ਰੰਗ ॥
तिसु विचि जीअ जुगति के रंग ॥
Ŧis vicẖ jī▫a jugaṯ ke rang.
Upon it, He placed the various species of beings.
ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਨੰਤ ॥
तिन के नाम अनेक अनंत ॥
Ŧin ke nām anek ananṯ.
Their names are uncounted and endless.
ਕਰਮੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਹੋਇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
करमी करमी होइ वीचारु ॥
Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār.
By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged.
ਸਚਾ ਆਪਿ ਸਚਾ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
सचा आपि सचा दरबारु ॥
Sacẖā āp sacẖā ḏarbār.
God Himself is True, and True is His Court.
ਤਿਥੈ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
तिथै सोहनि पंच परवाणु ॥
Ŧithai sohan pancẖ parvāṇ.
There, in perfect grace and ease, sit the self-elect, the self-realized Saints.
ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
नदरी करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥
Naḏrī karam pavai nīsāṇ.
They receive the Mark of Grace from the Merciful Lord.
ਕਚ ਪਕਾਈ ਓਥੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
कच पकाई ओथै पाइ ॥
Kacẖ pakā▫ī othai pā▫e.
The ripe and the unripe, the good and the bad, shall there be judged.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩੪॥
नानक गइआ जापै जाइ ॥३४॥
Nānak ga▫i▫ā jāpai jā▫e. ||34||
O Nanak, when you go home, you will see this. ||34||


Seeing as Sikhi rejects the concepts of heaven/hell/reincarnation, and no one is going to "judge" you when you die, and there is no 'record" of your deeds since Sikhi (as per my understanding) also rejects the concept of sin, how exactly do you reconcile those beliefs with what is being said in the Shabads above? How are "the record is read out in the presence of the Lord of Dharma" and "by their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged", how does that somehow apply to THIS life?

Exploring Sikhi ji ,

here recording of our deeds simply mean we are responsible for our actions , we reap what we sow .just like touching an electric wire one will experiance electric Shock .

 

[spnadmin]

ExploringSikhi ji

It is not easy for me to be concise. I think you are asking very complex questions. Though I wanted to write about dharma, instead I wrote this to respond to Question 1 and 2. Opinion may not be the best way to describe Guru Nanak's teachings.

opinion |əˈpinyən|
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge : I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance | that, in my opinion, is dead right.
• the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing : the changing climate of opinion.
• ( opinion of) an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something : I had a higher opinion of myself than I deserved.
• a formal statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter : seeking a second opinion from a specialist.
• Law a formal statement of reasons for a judgment given.
• Law a lawyer's advice on the merits of a case.

Many Sikhs liken Guru Nanak’s philosophy to science. I do not. However, Guru Nanak depended on a method of inquiry, not unlike inquiry used by scientists. He used observation, the perception of patterns, intelligent propositions (which could be compared to hypothesis testing). Instead of applying this method of inquiry to the physical world, he applied it to the world of human suffering. Guru Nanak asked how patterns of moral and political bankruptcy could be responsible for that suffering. In all of Gurbani, in every shabad, Guru Nanak lays out a moral or ethical question, and answers using patterns of observation regarding pride, ego, attachment, greed, lust and anger. He suggests that these patterns lie behind the suffering inflicted on ordinary people, and also behind the suffering we inflict on ourselves. And then he discloses how being Gurmukh, turning one’s face to the Guru, is the way out of the traps humans have created. The authority of a scientific model and that of Guru Nanak are essentially the same. Does the message have internal consistency? Does it describe and explain a problem using observations and patterns from the reality before us in a way that rings true? Can we see how moral and ethical problems work?

So is this process of inquiry simply the making of opinion? Is Newton’s model of how gravity works an opinion? Is Guru Nanak’s philosophical model of how we find ourselves in spiritual distress and moral despair an opinion? Both Newton and Guru Nanak tried to make sense of real-world problems by analyzing the effects of unseen truths on the real world.

In my opinion, the word “opinion” is used much too loosely. Opinions don’t make room for careful inquiry. Guru Nanak’s authority in part comes from his ability to apply his observations and analysis of the lives of people around him, and society and its suffering, to the larger questions of how to cope with the immorality of power and how to live ones' own moral life. For some of us, Sikhs, the fact that Guru Nanak did not receive his insights from a “higher authority” is his strength. Following orders from on high, taking a message from an external authority, leads to obedience; neither morality nor ethics is about obedience. Morality and ethics require a reasoning mind.


Guru Nanak stresses the importance of discernment or "bibek" throughout Shabad Guru to discover a higher moral truth and to live in a truthful way. My answer will be entirely unsatisfactory to anyone who believes that spiritual authority must be funneled to ordinary mortals from supernatural sources in order to be authoritative. Then Guru Nanak was not an ordinary man.

There are at least 2 other ways to think about spiritual authority: 1) a greater force brings a spiritual teacher forward; 2) the validity of the message because the message is intelligible, it makes sense, to those who hear the message, and freely choose to follow it.

To the first point, Bhai Gurdas in varaan 1, pauree 23 says

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ।
Sounee Poukaari Daataar Prabhu Guru Naanak Jag Maahi Patdaaiaa.

The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.

And previously in pauree 22, Bhai Gurdas describes the divine principle as one that is just, and seeing suffering in the world designed to help humanity restore the rightness of dharma through Guru Nanak.

To the second point. Was Guru Nanak’s teaching intelligible and did he connect with humanity? Unlike the bhagats before him, one did not have to seek Guru Nanak out because he reached out in his pilgrimages. Unlike the Muslim overlords he never mandated submission to “the one true god.” He made himself and his ideas easy to access. He reasoned with people and they were attracted to a message that said anyone can make the vital connection with the satguru, that eternal truth which is the light that dispels darkness. He did not rebuke or speak of damnation; he spoke of God as a “raft” that would take each and everyone “over the terrifying world ocean” to a place of “sukh." To get there one had to live a moral life; one had to trust that devotion was the key to making that connection; one had to treat everyone else as a brother and sister in spirit. Bhai Gurdas describes how the message of Guru Nanak was affirmed by those who heard it.
ਜਿਥੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਆਸਣੁ ਥਾਪਣਿ ਸੋਆ।
Jiday Baabaa Pairu Dharay Poojaa Aasanu Daapani Soaa.

Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.

ਸਿਧ ਆਸਣਿ ਸਭਿ ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਮਤੇ ਜੇ ਕੋਆ।
Sidhaasani Sabhi Jagati Day Naanak Aadi Matay Jay Koaa.

All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.

ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਸੋਆ।
Ghari Ghari Andari Dharamasaal Hovai Keeratanu Sadaa Visoaa.

Every home has become a place of dharma where all are singing.

As long as this comment is, it is inadequate to the job. There is more to ask. Perhaps other members will help me and forgive my errors.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The "Fault" lies with the INTERPRETORS....those that wrote the FARIDKOTEE TEEKA..were seeing GURBANI through heavily BHAVA COLOURED glasses....they SAW EVERYTHING IN ORANGE..for every "explanation" they went back to the Vedas, the Puranas etc...in the end they "concluded"..SGGS is nothing except a Simplified version of VEDAS. PERIOD. And Guur nanak ji is simply naother awtar of vishnu brahma ...another raam another krishan.period. Nothing new or revolutionary....

The SECOND types are heavily influenced by the ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS..christain concepts of God, hell, heavens, original sin, punishment etc etc..They look for DharamRaaj angels of death and angels of deliverance and satan and devils and demons, they look for rivers of death to be crossed, etc etc..hence the terms LORD GOD etc etc..thrown in amply in their interpretitions. They have a pre- set notion that GOD is some oldie with a long beard, sitting on his throne somewhere in the sky, waving wands, torturing sending down plagues and thunderballs and speaking through lighted bushes that dont burn to ashes..

So when the read Darbar..they immediately get back to their pre conceived mental picture of God in beard seated on throne..blah blah blah..Panch Parvaan as Panch getting HONOURED as supposedly the prophets get it by being seated at His right hand or left hand side or blah blah..

What is the reality ?

The reality is GURU NANAK JI is ENTIRELY SOMETHING BRAND NEW---latest GYAAN. No hocus pocus, no burning bushes, no Gabrielles flitting around on wings, no revelations via dreams ...no demanding sacrifices of the beloved SON and then releasing the son and feeling ok with a lamb instead...JAISEE MEHN AVEH KHASAM KI BANI>>TESRRA KARIN GYAAN ve LALO....As I RECEIVE my HUSBANDS COMMANDS..I DELIVER !! the GYAAN..the KNOWLEDGE >>> DIRECT.

This GYAAN is NOT for the "hereafter"..not for the Heavens or the Hells..not for the dharamraajs or angels or satans...the GYAAN IS FOR the HUMAN LIFE !! ON THIS EARTH...in THIS LIFE...in this HUMAN LANGUAGE...in human INK..on Human PAPER..in a Human BOOK. Its NOT for the cows or the buffaloes..its not for the dogs or "souls" in animal bodies !!!! Its NOT for "reincarnated parrots..or cats..whatever that means ?? Its NOT for those who JUST DIED ( Akhand paaths sehaj paaths, BHOGS and kiratn darbars for B{censored}es anniversaries are a WASTE in every way becasue the GURBANI is NOT for the DEAD - its for the LIVING. POSTMORTEMS should NOT be confused with MEDICAL PROCEDURES..one is for the DEAD..one for the LIVING. GURBANI is for the LIVING. Gurbani is NOt for those supposedly in heaven..or in hell..or reincarnated as dogs or wolves..THOSE concepts are for those wearing ORANGE GLASSES..they do beleive in bad persons being reborn as Dogs and wolves..and thus feeding saradhs is ok for them..BUT its NOT GURU Nank Jis WAY/GYAAN. GURBANI may be a PRISM..it makes WHITE LIGHT into a RAINBOW....BUT its NOT orange coloured glass/blue coloured glass/white coloured glass..GURBANI has NO COLOUR...so it has NOTHING shared with the Bible. the koran..the torah the vedas..whatever...SGGS stands ALONE !!!

1. SAADH WITHIN. Gurbani declares that the SAADH is WITHIN. This SAADH is the CREATOR....and HE is WITHIN. (Those wearing Orange glasses will see the "saadh" as the dehdharee holy man..sant/saint/etc etc who is ESSENTIAL in Brahminised religious thought BUT Totally IRRELEVANT in GURBANI. Thus the deras, snats, saadhs, etc will stress the VEDIC version because IF they DONT..they have no standing left..no LOCUS STANDI...they are "holy..they are saintly..they have people bowing to them, drinking their dirty water, left over foods etc..BECAUSE they MISINTERPRET Gurbani to POINT to themsleves instead of to the CREATOR.

2. PANCH - WITHIN. We all have the PANCH...kaam krodh lobh moh hankaar INSIDE of US. We also ahve the SAADH inside of us. Where the SAADH resides is HIS "DARBAAR"..his "COURT"...and the PANCH are also in his court...inside of us...NOW IF..we through the GYAAN of GURBANI...manage to "CONTROL" these FIVE..( as opposed to them controlling us )..then the FIVE are "oarvaan..under control..and they are in hsi darbaar..inside of us...and IF these Panch are parvaan..in ahuman being..He is a Perfect Human being...he has anger Management, .. pride controlled, lobh attachmnet..LIMITED...MOH is controleld...and thus when such a Human DIES..he LEAVES with a CLEAN FACE...he is in SACHI DARGAH..with a SACHA FACE. His LIFE was an OPEN BOOK..everyone is full of praise for him, his deeds are remembered..BY THE LIVING..the ones he left BEHIND...and the opposite is cursed by all and sundry..people spit on his grave..(Acts also done by the LIVING).

the Fundamental rule is GURBANI is a Brand NEW GYAAN..its fundamentals are WITHIN ITSELF. We have to approach it with a absolutely CLEAR HEAD...no preconceived notions borrowed form OTHERS. Then we can see the Pristine clarity of SGGS...its concepts, its vocabulary, its terminology, its philosophy..EVERY SINGLE THING is DIFFERENT. The GURU even went so far as to USE a different SCRIPT _GURMUKHI to write down GURBANI....although he had a choice of many already established scripts !! The Vocubalarya dn terminology used in Gurbani may seem the same as previously used..BUT when we look into it thoroughly we see that GURU uses the same words BUT with a GURMATT MEANING. This Gurmatt Meaning becomes clear if we bother to look INSIDE GURBANI ITSELF ratehr than jump to conclusions based on OUTSIDE USAGE of such words. Apologies for a rather long post..i hope i make sense..

 

[spnadmin]

ExploringSikhi ji

In re-reading Harmanpreet Singh ji's reply to you I picked up your reference to the Communist manifesto. Karl Marx and Marxism in general asserts that the individual and her lot can be perfected by perfecting the environment. It is a proposal for a political and economic experiment. The goal is to relieve political and economic tyranny. I think we can see from Gyani ji's reply that Guru Nanak was tuned into something quite the reverse, and not any kind of experiment. Guru Nanak says we change the world when we change ourselves. When we change ourselves we change our environment. When we change ourselves we change the lot of everyone around us. We do it through gyaan - it by gyaan that we rid ourselves of the 5 evils by making an attachment to Waheguru.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

ExploringSikhi ji,

Guru Fateh and welcome to the forum.

You ask:

Why Should I Believe Guru Nanak?

First, this seems like a half baked question. It makes little sense to me. Believe in what? His words, actions or both, or neither?

My question to you is:

Why should you?

Tejwant Singh

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Tejwant Ji,

Sat Sri Akal.

What I initially meant by "why should I believe Guru Nanak" was that throughout Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Guru Nanak downplays miracles and magic tricks. Obviously, it means he did not believe in them, nor did he perform them. But then the story of how he became Guru sounded very much like a miracle story, so I wanted to know why I should believe it, if he did not believe in miracles, why is he asking me to believe in one?

Now that has already been answered. I guess now what I mean by "Why Should I Believe Guru Nanak" is that, if by using his powers of observation, Sikhi is Guru Nanak Ji's answer to the problems that the world faces, why should I not believe that perhaps someone else out there has also asked themself these questions and come up with better answers? Why should I not use my own powers of observation and come to my own conclusions about the best way to live my life, instead of relying on someone else?

I have just started to read the answers I got to my previous post and will reply back later after I have finished reading them and have had time to gather my thoughts.

Thank you everyone,

Take care

 

[spnadmin]

ExploringSikhi ji

If the only thing you are selecting from my longish comment is Guru Nanak's "using his powers of observation" then you have missed 99 percent of what I said. We all have powers of observation. Everyone in Newton's day observed that apples fall from the tree limb to the ground. He was the only one who explained the apple's fall as a scientific law. Many in Guru Nanak's day also observed political, economic and religious tyranny. If blogs on the Internet existed in those days, I am certain they would be buzzing with solutions -- assuming the bloggers did not run afoul of their Mughal overlords. Assuming they did not end up sewn up into the fresh butchered hides of pigs, thrown onto the back of a mule, and paraded about town in the blazing sun until the hide dried tight about their bodies, slowly suffocating those precocious bloggers to death.

Guru Nanak was more than a little different from the average guy with an informed opinion based on his observations. Please tell your Muslim friend who is plying you with questions. Guru Nanak was looking at entrenched misery and the entrenched social structures he believed caused them, including but not limited to Muslim invaders who sucked India dry for centuries, and their brahmin cronies whom they needed to weaken the locals by continuous economic and spiritual subjugation.

Newton demonstrated a law of gravity. Nanak discovered some "laws" too! One of them was (PLUNDER + RUTHLESSNESS) x (MORAL BANKRUPTCY + RELIGIOUS SELF-INTEREST) = DE-MORAL-IZATION. Guru Nanak, like Newton, explained when others did not (excepting a few Sufs who were put to the sword). Guru Nanak also proposed that rituals and sacrifice and the cleansing of karma kept the brahmins rich and the Muslims at ease, and did nothing to RE-MORAL-IZE anyone. After diagnosing the problem he went on to propose a cure. The diagnosis came from his intellect; the cure came from the SAT.

Opinion and observation will take one only so far. Guru Nanak turned inquiry and genius into something we can apply to solve moral malfunctioning and rid us of our suffering. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is both the diagnostic manual and the prescription for change. It has sustained us through centuries of genocide and misfortune. That is pretty good work.

Can you do that? I can't. Also, holding off on talk of dharma. Don't have that much time to spend on it if we are running up against a da'wah. Hope not!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

what reason or logic is there in "i beleive" ......because so and so walked on water..so and so had angel visit him in his bedroom..and dictated to him even though the said person was illeterate and didnt know how to write a single alphabet..and DID NOT IN FACT WRITE ANYTHING DOWN HIMSELF....you simply have to "believe" because he said so..and because many millions do....just as many millions still gather at hardwar to send water to the Sun so that their dead ancestors can have a SIP !! Why ? Because they also "believe"

Guru Nanak ji NEVER asked/requested...anyone to "beleive"...He simply related what He experienced..He never asked anyone NOT to believe either..thats the FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE between Gurmatt and all others...the FACTOR OF VOLUNTARY CHOICE. NONE give this CHOICE..its either YOU are WITH ME or AGAINST ME types.:japosatnamwaheguru:

 

[arshdeep88]

Where there is unconditional love and faith there is no questioning brother.
For me the answer lies in the life of Bhai Lehna Ji who transformed into Guru Angad Dev Ji.

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

sat sri akal first please understand sri guru granth are revealations from creator without the help of anything inbetween example angels.. if you read the muslim scriptures their founder brought down the revealations thru a journey.. in sikhism this journey was not stated because from the point of sikhism, journey is taking place because the mind is still there not surrendered yet completely.. for example when you a travelling in a train, you will see the outside scenes are moving.. you think the outside is moving, actually it is the mind in the train moving forward. so in sikhism we are talking more on surrendering the whole mind thru meditation with the help of a satguru. this is the reasons why guru nanak disappeared, he did not mention of any journeys.. first ego and god cannot coexist together, and with the help of ego or haumai you cannot bring down true revealations.. so ego must be surrendered completely.. mind is the idiot which reassemble the ego.. so when mind is completely surrendered our true spirit will manifest.. this is who we are, but not the ego..yes no reincarnation in sikhism but it is transmigration of souls

 

[findingmyway]

I have been researching Sikhism for a while now and am enjoying it very much. It is rational, does not require me to believe in superstitions, and the Guru Granth Sahib emphasizes living this life to the fullest without worrying so much about the next. It is nice and I like it.

Then use the lessons as your litmus test. Whenever you hear a story, measure how it matches up with Gurbani. If the story does not fit in with the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then discard the story. Only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is important. I urge you to explore and contribute to the Shabad of the Week and Gurmat Vichaar sections of the site as that is where you will learn the true meaning of Sikhi.

There is just one problem. As I understand it, Guru Nanak rejected miracles and claims of supernatural abilities. The thing that stumps me though is the story about how Guru Nanak was granted Guruship- going missing in a lake for 3 days, coming out, saying 'there is no Hindu, no Muslim", reciting the mool mantar etc... Sikhs proclaim that Guru Nanak was summoned in the court of God and awarded Guruship by Waheguru Himself. Is this not a miracle? Is it not superstitious/asking me to believe something that can't be proven?

If so, what exactly makes him an authority figure? In other words, if Sikhi is his (Guru Nanak Ji's) opinion of the best way to do things, how do I explain to an Abrahamic, someone who believes that only those in direct communion with the divine should be trusted, that it is logical and rational to live my entire life according to the opinions of a man, a very humble and wise man, but ultimately a man who did not claim to have spoken to anything supernatural?

I guess now what I mean by "Why Should I Believe Guru Nanak" is that, if by using his powers of observation, Sikhi is Guru Nanak Ji's answer to the problems that the world faces, why should I not believe that perhaps someone else out there has also asked themself these questions and come up with better answers? Why should I not use my own powers of observation and come to my own conclusions about the best way to live my life, instead of relying on someone else?

3) Kind of ties in with the above, but Guru Nanak sometimes talks about spreading God's message. This implies that it was given to Him by God, which implies that God does interfere in human life. Sikhism emphasizes the life of the householder, that it is possible for ordinary people to realize God, that you don't need mediators. Why then was this message given to the Gurus and a select few other people? If I live an honest life, will God also communicate with me and give me the message? Also, what then about the messengers of Islam/Judaism/Christianity etc... did they too get the message from God, or were they fakes?

All the above thoughts are interlinked and have largely been answered by Gyani ji and Spnadmin ji's expert observations as well as others. The sakhis are largely manufactured and are unimportant. Focus your attention on Gurbani and the more of this gem you will explore, the more you realise how amazing the message is. Implementing the teachings in your life is another matter and a very personal one but with teh help of sangat!!

Why do we go to school? Why not just learn by ourselves? It is to benefit from the wisdom and experience that teachers can share with us. This is the same case as learning from our Guruji. The learning process is very individual but we all need help. Even Guru ji did not learn alone, but drew on the strength and wisdom of those around him, including his supportive sister Bibi Nanaki.

The only authority you need is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and anyone who studies it, is awed by its wisdom and insight. What more authority do we need? I do believe in miracles - the miracle of people who are able to do the right thing in the face of adversity, the miracle of human strength, the miracle of some people who are able to remain in chardi kala despite the odds, the miracle of how all life works together, the miracle of a waterfall or the sunset and the miracle of finding SPN sangat at a time in my life when I was desperately spiritually alone. Whether you follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is your choice, whether you become a Sikh is your choice, the authortiy you choose is your choice. My only advice is to use your bibek buddhi, your discerning intellect to find the right path for you. Guru ji also believed in the miracle of the human spirit, which is why he empowered the common man with the pearls of Gurbani, unlike the Brahmins who insisted only they had this power.

Furthermore, I thought that Waheguru was omnipresent, how could Guru Nanak be summoned in the court of God if Sikhism rejects reincarnation/heaven/hell i.e. there is no court, the Abrahamic faiths proclaim a court of God because they believe in the day of judgement, but Sikhism doesn't, so was it a figure of speech?

3) And my own personal question that I do not believe has been answered yet: In certain parts of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it talks about having your deeds read out in the presence of the Lord of Dharma and also about how you will be judged according to your actions. Examples:

Ik Oankaar is in each and every one of us. When I am rude to someone or about someone, I judge myself and feel terrible. I die a spiritual death as I judge myself negatively and move away from a Gursikh ideal. When I am kind to another being, I feel more connected and closer to being a Gurmukh. I judge myself positively and am closer to spiritual life. This is the rue judgement.

Other than that, I also have a question about Guru Granth Sahib. The way I understand it, the Adi Granth was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev, he included his work and the work of the 4 previous Gurus, as well as devotees such as Bhagat Kabir. Between that time and when Guru Gobind Singh added further hymns to the text, what guarantee is there that nothing additional had been added, that it was not changed/unpurified? After that, how do Sikhs know for sure that the Guru Granth Sahib has not been changed since the time of Guru Gobind Singh?

There is a locking system in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The numbers and system of it being set out ensure it cannot be tampered without being noticed. I think the system is covered in one of the attachements from Spnadmin ji earlier in the thread.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Thank you for posting everyone!

@spnadmin ji, thank you for clearing up what you meant, it makes a lot more sense after your last post above. Sorry I did not reply sooner, I have been busy with University registration and shopping for supplies :winkingmunda:

sat sri akal first please understand sri guru granth are revealations from creator without the help of anything inbetween example angels.. if you read the muslim scriptures their founder brought down the revealations thru a journey.. in sikhism this journey was not stated because from the point of sikhism, journey is taking place because the mind is still there not surrendered yet completely.. for example when you a travelling in a train, you will see the outside scenes are moving.. you think the outside is moving, actually it is the mind in the train moving forward. so in sikhism we are talking more on surrendering the whole mind thru meditation with the help of a satguru. this is the reasons why guru nanak disappeared, he did not mention of any journeys.. first ego and god cannot coexist together, and with the help of ego or haumai you cannot bring down true revealations.. so ego must be surrendered completely.. mind is the idiot which reassemble the ego.. so when mind is completely surrendered our true spirit will manifest.. this is who we are, but not the ego..yes no reincarnation in sikhism but it is transmigration of souls

That being said, it is things like the bold part above that tend to confuse me, it (bold part above) sounds like Guru Nanak ji was actually talking to God, the same way Moses talked to God as per Jewish teachings.

Which leads me to my next point, why is there so much disagreement among Sikhs when it comes to the interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I do not believe Sikhi advocates reincarnation/heaven/hell because of the writings of Professor Baldev Singh, he is of the belief that it goes against Nanakian Philosophy. That being said, this is the only sangat I have ever been a part of that rejects the belief in reincarnation or some form of reward/punishment in the afterlife. Why is this? I was discussing this very issue with a few Sikhs last week and was branded a "heretic", someone even said I had been brainwashed and was not learning the true teachings of Sikhi. After reading Professor Baldev Singh's work, I guess I went through Guru Granth Sahib Ji with a bias and read every shabad in a way that would fit my preconceived notions of what the Gurus were trying to say. I always read it in a way so that reincarnation/heaven/hell applied to this life, and not the next. And it wasn't just a one time thing either, I have been told multiple times by Sikhs in the past that my beliefs about Sikhi were wrong, that they were too "Atheistic", that I was changing Sikhi and had strayed from the message of the Gurus.

So, pretty much, how do you guys know that your "version" of Sikhi is right, so far Professor Baldev Singh is the only "scholar" I have come across who would agree with the members of SPN about miracles/reincarnation/heaven/hell, everyone else would disagree, and the Sikhs I know in real life would disagree.

And perhaps it is a discussion for another day, but really quick without getting into too much detail, what is the general SPN consensus on the Dasam Granth? Some Sikh told me about how there is something in there about Guru Gobind Singh Ji being the reincarnation of Krishna, so do you think it has been changed? If you disregard it, what about Banis such as Japu Sahib, isn't that something Sikhs are supposed to read on a daily-basis? So do the practicing Sikhs of SPN who think Dasam Granth was changed also not recite Japu Sahib?

Thank you and Sat Sri Akal.

 

[aristotle]

o far Professor Baldev Singh
is the only "scholar" I have come across who would
agree with the members of SPN about miracles/
reincarnation/heaven/hell, everyone else would
disagree, and the Sikhs I know in real life would
disagree.

I haven't come across Prof Baldev Singh's works and I wouldn't be able to comment on him or his philosophy.
But yes, apparently he isn't the only one reinforcing the ideals of Sikhism in this regard. Try reading the works of Harinder Singh Mehboob, Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, Karam Singh Historian, Prof Sahib Singh and the likes(you can always research more, these are just the authors I have came across, this isn't a definitive list).

 

[spnadmin]

Exploring Sikhi ji

I just sent you a pm pleading exhaustion this evening. But I am so appreciative of aristotle ji for providing you with this list. Of particular note on that list are Karam Singh and Harjinder Sigh Dilgeer. Baldev Singh is really one of the frontiersmen to write in English extensively, and concurrently with the Internet, making his ideas more widely available. As I said in my pm, I will hopefully do a better job later on.

 

[Luckysingh]

Not all members deny reincarnation and karma, although most are certain about no existence of heaven and hell realms.
Some of us respect the writings in dasam bani and are influenced by them and some are certain that they are all fabricated.
Same goes for simran and meditation because some believe it is a waste of time and just parroting whereas some of us can't find a better tool for self development.

So don't get the wrong idea that SPN has the same kind of general views which others label as 'missionary'.

 

[Harry Haller]

Some of us respect the writings in dasam bani and are influenced by them and some are certain that they are all fabricated.

I think it is a given that the DG contains valid writings, I think some of us recoil at the thought that such gems are forced to live next door to the titulation and Vedic sex manuals, however, if truth can be obtained from a heavy metal track, and if one can be influenced by such, and it is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then who cares?

Same goes for simran and meditation because some believe it is a waste of time and just parroting whereas some of us can't find a better tool for self development.

I do not think there is anything wrong with simran or meditation, provided it is used as one of many tools, and not a sole method of connection.

The danger of course is the addiction to the feeling of escapism/bliss/contentment, and a bigger danger is the equation that connection is this feeling, when in my view, connection involves actions as well as thoughts.

For those that find the balance, Luckyji, and I think you are one of them, it can be a useful tool