Why Our Souls Separated From God?

[Yuno]

Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?

P.S. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings so please bear with it if my question sounds arrogant.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?

P.S. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings so please bear with it if my question sounds arrogant.

According to Gurbani, it’s not that our souls are something separate from Creator at all. Rather we are in a state of illusion of separation where we have forgotten that we really are ONE.

There is a reason for duality. As ONE there is nothing else and nobody else to make subjective comparison. As ONE it’s impossible to contemplate anything or anyone else. It’s only through duality that ONE can experience subjectively its own self. However it would not work if memory was retained as then the illusion of separateness collapses as soon as you realize you are in fact ONE.

I remember a quote which sums it up well... paraphrased... “Reality is the act of the ONE Creator experiencing itself subjectively through its own creation” and this must be done in amnesia of itself or it really isn’t able to grasp a separate point of observation... because well there really in reality is none.

When we speak of ‘merging’ back with Creator really what we should say is remove the veil of illusion which is keeping us from remembering that we are already ONE and always were ONE and always will be ONE.

 

[Harry Haller]

According to Gurbani,

I think its more according to your understanding of Gurbani, than Gurbani per se, unless you have had intimate talks with God?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I think its more according to your understanding of Gurbani, than Gurbani per se, unless you have had intimate talks with God?

Actually Gurbani has many references to duality itself being the illusion. This shabad also puts it into context. It’s soeaking specifically about the atma... not the mind being enlightened when the illusion is removed. It speaks about the duality of the body... is separateness... vice being ‘merged’.
“The illusion of duality is easily removed”
In peace their body’s duality is removed and they ‘merge’ with (Creator). So duality is the illusion.
Once that illusion is torn down, their atma (part of the paramatma) recognizes that they are ONE.

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਿਦ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
गुर का सबदु रिद अंतरि धारै ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ riḏ anṯar ḏẖārai.
Those who implant the Word of the Guru's Shabad within their hearts

ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਸੰਗੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥
पंच जना सिउ संगु निवारै ॥
Pancẖ janā si▫o sang nivārai.
cut their connections with the five passions.

ਦਸ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਵਾਸਿ ॥
दस इंद्री करि राखै वासि ॥
Ḏas inḏrī kar rākẖai vās.
They keep the ten organs under their control;

ਤਾ ਕੈ ਆਤਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
ता कै आतमै होइ परगासु ॥१॥
Ŧā kai āṯmai ho▫e pargās. ||1||
their souls are enlightened. ||1||

ਐਸੀ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਤਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
ऐसी द्रिड़ता ता कै होइ ॥
Aisī ḏariṛ▫ṯā ṯā kai ho▫e.
They alone acquire such stability,

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जा कउ दइआ मइआ प्रभ सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jā ka▫o ḏa▫i▫ā ma▫i▫ā parabẖ so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
whom God blesses with His Mercy and Grace. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਜਨੁ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨੈ ॥
साजनु दुसटु जा कै एक समानै ॥
Sājan ḏusat jā kai ek samānai.
Friend and foe are one and the same to them.

ਜੇਤਾ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਗਿਆਨੈ ॥
जेता बोलणु तेता गिआनै ॥
Jeṯā bolaṇ ṯeṯā gi▫ānai.
Whatever they speak is wisdom.

ਜੇਤਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
जेता सुनणा तेता नामु ॥
Jeṯā sunṇā ṯeṯā nām.
Whatever they hear is the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਜੇਤਾ ਪੇਖਨੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥੨॥
जेता पेखनु तेता धिआनु ॥२॥
Jeṯā pekẖan ṯeṯā ḏẖi▫ān. ||2||
Whatever they see is meditation. ||2||

ਸਹਜੇ ਜਾਗਣੁ ਸਹਜੇ ਸੋਇ ॥
सहजे जागणु सहजे सोइ ॥
Sėhje jāgaṇ sėhje so▫e.
They awaken in peace and poise; they sleep in peace and poise.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਤਾ ਜਾਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
सहजे होता जाइ सु होइ ॥
Sėhje hoṯā jā▫e so ho▫e.
That which is meant to be, automatically happens.

ਸਹਜਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਹਸਨਾ ॥
सहजि बैरागु सहजे ही हसना ॥
Sahj bairāg sėhje hī hasnā.
In peace and poise, they remain detached; in peace and poise, they laugh.

ਸਹਜੇ ਚੂਪ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਜਪਨਾ ॥੩॥
सहजे चूप सहजे ही जपना ॥३॥
Sėhje cẖūp sėhje hī japnā. ||3||
In peace and poise, they remain silent; in peace and poise, they chant. ||3||

ਸਹਜੇ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਹਜੇ ਭਾਉ ॥
सहजे भोजनु सहजे भाउ ॥
Sėhje bẖojan sėhje bẖā▫o.
In peace and poise they eat; in peace and poise they love.

ਸਹਜੇ ਮਿਟਿਓ ਸਗਲ ਦੁਰਾਉ ॥
सहजे मिटिओ सगल दुराउ ॥
Sėhje miti▫o sagal ḏurā▫o.
The illusion of duality is easily and totally removed.

ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
सहजे होआ साधू संगु ॥
Sėhje ho▫ā sāḏẖū sang.
They naturally join the Saadh Sangat, the Society of the Holy.

ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਸੰਗੁ ॥੪॥
सहजि मिलिओ पारब्रहमु निसंगु ॥४॥
Sahj mili▫o pārbarahm nisang. ||4||
In peace and poise, they meet and merge with the Supreme Lord God. ||4||

ਸਹਜੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਮਹਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥
सहजे ग्रिह महि सहजि उदासी ॥
Sėhje garih mėh sahj uḏāsī.
They are at peace in their homes, and they are at peace while detached.

ਸਹਜੇ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਤਨ ਕੀ ਨਾਸੀ ॥
सहजे दुबिधा तन की नासी ॥
Sėhje ḏubiḏẖā ṯan kī nāsī.
In peace, their bodies' duality is eliminated.

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਨਿ ਭਇਆ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥
जा कै सहजि मनि भइआ अनंदु ॥
Jā kai sahj man bẖa▫i▫ā anand.
Bliss comes naturally to their minds.

ਤਾ ਕਉ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ॥੫॥
ता कउ भेटिआ परमानंदु ॥५॥
Ŧā ka▫o bẖeti▫ā parmānanḏ. ||5||
They meet the Lord, the Embodiment of Supreme Bliss. ||5||

ਸਹਜੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਓ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
सहजे अम्रितु पीओ नामु ॥
Sėhje amriṯ pī▫o nām.
In peaceful poise, they drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਸਹਜੇ ਕੀਨੋ ਜੀਅ ਕੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
सहजे कीनो जीअ को दानु ॥
Sėhje kīno jī▫a ko ḏān.
In peace and poise, they give to the poor.

ਸਹਜ ਕਥਾ ਮਹਿ ਆਤਮੁ ਰਸਿਆ ॥
सहज कथा महि आतमु रसिआ ॥
Sahj kathā mėh āṯam rasi▫ā.
Their souls naturally delight in the Lord's Sermon.

ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਵਸਿਆ ॥੬॥
ता कै संगि अबिनासी वसिआ ॥६॥
Ŧā kai sang abẖināsī vasi▫ā. ||6||
The Imperishable Lord abides with them. ||6||

ਸਹਜੇ ਆਸਣੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਭਾਇਆ ॥
सहजे आसणु असथिरु भाइआ ॥
Sėhje āsaṇ asthir bẖā▫i▫ā.
In peace and poise, they assume the unchanging position.

ਸਹਜੇ ਅਨਹਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਇਆ ॥
सहजे अनहत सबदु वजाइआ ॥
Sėhje anhaṯ sabaḏ vajā▫i▫ā.
In peace and poise, the unstruck vibration of the Shabad resounds.

ਸਹਜੇ ਰੁਣ ਝੁਣਕਾਰੁ ਸੁਹਾਇਆ ॥
सहजे रुण झुणकारु सुहाइआ ॥
Sėhje ruṇ jẖuṇkār suhā▫i▫ā.
In peace and poise, the celestial bells resound.

ਤਾ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੭॥
ता कै घरि पारब्रहमु समाइआ ॥७॥
Ŧā kai gẖar pārbarahm samā▫i▫ā. ||7||
Within their homes, the Supreme Lord God is pervading. ||7||

ਸਹਜੇ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਪਰਿਓ ਕਰਮਾ ॥
सहजे जा कउ परिओ करमा ॥
Sėhje jā ka▫o pari▫o karmā.
With intuitive ease, they meet the Lord, according to their karma.

ਸਹਜੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
सहजे गुरु भेटिओ सचु धरमा ॥
Sėhje gur bẖeti▫o sacẖ ḏẖarmā.
With intuitive ease, they meet with the Guru, in the true Dharma.

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸਹਜੁ ਭਇਆ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
जा कै सहजु भइआ सो जाणै ॥
Jā kai sahj bẖa▫i▫ā so jāṇai.
Those who know, attain the poise of intuitive peace.

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੈ ॥੮॥੩॥
नानक दास ता कै कुरबाणै ॥८॥३॥
Nānak ḏās ṯā kai kurbāṇai. ||8||3||
Slave Nanak is a sacrifice to them. ||8||3||

[\quote]

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?

I am sorry to disappoint you but that is not a Sikhi thought.
1. What is Soul as per your understanding? Please elaborate.

A Sikh is always One with the One, Ik Ong Kaar in the only life he/she has. This is what omnipresence of The Source means.
A Sikh is Ik Ong Kaar centred the day he becomes one unlike in other religions where the judgement is after death. A Sikh judges his/her actions with each and every breath.

 

[Yuno]

I am sorry to disappoint you but that is not a Sikhi thought.
1. What is Soul as per your understanding? Please elaborate.

A Sikh is always One with the One, Ik Ong Kaar in the only life he/she has. This is what omnipresence of The Source means.
A Sikh is Ik Ong Kaar centred the day he becomes one unlike in other religions where the judgement is after death. A Sikh judges his/her actions with each and every breath.

I do not have any particular word to use for what's soul as per my understanding but I would like to elaborate my thoughts.
"Soul is what gives me idea of what's wrong and what's right. I believe soul is something that's more like god himself."
I can't really explain much like this but please ask me some more questions as like do you think soul is this? or that? I would be able to explain better.

 

[Yuno]

As ONE it’s impossible to contemplate anything or anyone else.

Since God is omniscient and becoming ONE with god would obviously be becoming omniscient so I don't understand how can anything be impossible to contemplate as ONE?

 

[Yuno]

When we speak of ‘merging’ back with Creator really what we should say is remove the veil of illusion which is keeping us from remembering that we are already ONE and always were ONE and always will be ONE.

I want to know why illusion and why everything?
Question coming to my mind is if I DARE to ask why God created everything? And why then, when he did, why not before that?

P.S. These thoughts keep on coming to my mind after I realized most people talk about what after death? Reincarnation? like thoughts. Whereas my mind revolves around past about reason behind all this.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Since God is omniscient and becoming ONE with god would obviously be becoming omniscient so I don't understand how can anything be impossible to contemplate as ONE?

As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’.

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

What is a soul? Maybe my thinking is too simplistic, but I believe that Sikhi teaches us that everyone has the light (jot) of the One. This light is eternal, unchanging, and immortal. I call this light my soul. Eventually, it will be consciously reunited with the One. The spark merges with the fire, as the drop of water merges with the ocean. I see no reason to complicate the matter.

 

[Yuno]

As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’.

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

Understood. Still I would like to continue quest of finding why.

 

[Harry Haller]

As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’.

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

rubbish, there are lots of why's. I have been bombarding you with why's from day one, but you never answer, if there is an 'is' it is only to you, not me, there are a million philosophical view points, how arrogant for anyone to assume their theory is, rather than have to explain why

 

[Harry Haller]

Understood. Still I would like to continue quest of finding why.

you wake up, you live your life, you go to sleep, you do the same the next day, then you die, and then your nothing, in between you learn,

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

for myself, I am happy to debate this in full and answer any questions

 

[Yuno]

you wake up, you live your life, you go to sleep, you do the same the next day, then you die, and then your nothing, in between you learn,

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

for myself, I am happy to debate this in full and answer any questions

I would like to know your philosophical view point of why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?

 

[Harry Haller]

I have no viewpoint on it as it is not relevant to me, there are many questions that one could answer, tell me what benefit the answer has to you?

Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, they could give you answer

 

[Yuno]

What is a soul? Maybe my thinking is too simplistic, but I believe that Sikhi teaches us that everyone has the light (jot) of the One. This light is eternal, unchanging, and immortal. I call this light my soul. Eventually, it will be consciously reunited with the One. The spark merges with the fire, as the drop of water merges with the ocean. I see no reason to complicate the matter.

For this spark to merge with fire and for this drop of water to merge with ocean is only possible if it was not already ONE with it.

 

[Yuno]

I have no viewpoint on it as it is not relevant to me, there are many questions that one could answer, tell me what benefit the answer has to you?

Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, that could give you answer

Sir, I now do agree with that this could be answered by god himself.
Keeping it simple, benefit from the answer would simply be that everything like reincarnation,new life on basis of deeds in previous life, might all start making sense.
In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reason to get free from cycle of life and death is to merge back with ONE. But I did not( I don't have full knowledge) found any reason suggesting why ONE(creator)(god) started everything?
Then again I guess only god himself is able to answer

 

[Harry Haller]

Sir, I now do agree with that this could be answered by god himself.
Keeping it simple, benefit from the answer would simply be that everything like reincarnation,new life on basis of deeds in previous life, might all start making sense.
In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reason to get free from cycle of life and death is to merge back with ONE. But I did not( I don't have full knowledge) found any reason suggesting why ONE(creator)(god) started everything?
Then again I guess only god himself is able to answer

sorry to complicate, but it is not a given, even within Sikhism, that reincarnation and life on basis of previous deeds has any foundation, many Sikhs live their life free of this Vedic concept on the basis that there is no reward for being good other than doing good itself, but what actually constitutes good takes some pondering, every day you get the chance to merge with the one, and every day you get the chance not to, it is your choice, nothing is forever, everything changes, forever changes,

just another philosophical concept....

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

rubbish, there are lots of why's. I have been bombarding you with why's from day one, but you never answer, if there is an 'is' it is only to you, not me, there are a million philosophical view points, how arrogant for anyone to assume their theory is, rather than have to explain why

When I said it just ‘is’ I was speaking about the ONEness point of view vs duality and that as soon as from the duality viewpoint is realized that everything is ONE, the duality automatically collapses. It’s just ‘logic’ same as from ONEness point of view if ONE contemplates an other then thereby is no more ONE. Duality is created. I wasn’t speaking about my personal beliefs but just logic applied to philosophy. Even in classical sense read Aristotle etc. Same realizations...

I wasn’t really even intimating my own theory as such. Just showing how that philosophical thought agrees with Gurbani. Your view on the meaning of that shabad may be different... from what I remember in past conversations I am thinking you more interpret it to mean duality as like a split personality disorder and integration in a psychology sense? (I’m asking not telling so please share how you would interpret that shabad).

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

For this spark to merge with fire and for this drop of water to merge with ocean is only possible if it was not already ONE with it.

This is why I believe several shabads mention something to the effect “why speak of merging when one is already merged” instead of a separate drop of water from the ocean, think of several individual atoms of water still floating in the ocean, but unaware that’s where they really are.