Why Are My Animals More Sikh Than Me?

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
As human beings we have been blessed with reason, hooray! This enables us to cheat, lie, surrender to our ego, dominate other members of our species, dominate other species, and make changes to our environment that are not consistent with the order of things, consonance.

This comes back in my view, to being true. Animals, plants, on the whole are true to themselves, they are true to the essence of Creator that resides within them, they follow and do what they were meant to do, and in doing so confirm themselves as fully fledged members of creation.

What do we do? We lie, we are not true to ourselves, how ironic that the meaning of life is to give up lying, cheating, ego, pride, attachment, until we are pure enough to behave like the very animals we wish to dominate, I have a few theories as to why hair is so important, but this again confirms the need to return to the whole, to innocence, to be complete, to behave as creator intended, like animals, we can learn a lot from our animal neighbours, we can learn to be ourselves.

So we learn, we study, we pray, we do sewa, in the hope that one day We can tune into the essence of Creator that animals are already in tune with, so that we can find the enlightenment that is already there, maybe we look too hard for enlightenment, instead of gaining enlightenment, we should just concentrate on losing all the obstructions that are weakening our connection, how animals are lucky, they can just get on with living and being part of creation
 
How very true Harry ji, I have always preferred the company of animals as compared to human-beings, (supposedly created in God"s own image). In fact I have my own mini-zoo at my house, in which I keep all kinds of birds and animals, like budgerigars,{censored}atiels, love-birds etc. I also have ducks. geese. guinea fowl, a pair of emu,rabbits and six dogs. They all are kept in a large inclosure and I make it a point to spend atleast a few hours amongst them,morning and evening, every day. Peace and solace that I experience at that moment, at-least for me, no amount of prayers and meditation can achieve. This is my belief, but I know some guys who feel ill at ease just being near animals.:singhsippingcoffee:
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
How very true Harry ji, I have always preferred the company of animals as compared to human-beings, (supposedly created in God"s own image). In fact I have my own mini-zoo at my house, in which I keep all kinds of birds and animals, like budgerigars,{censored}atiels, love-birds etc. I also have ducks. geese. guinea fowl, a pair of emu,rabbits and six dogs. They all are kept in a large inclosure and I make it a point to spend atleast a few hours amongst them,morning and evening, every day. Peace and solace that I experience at that moment, at-least for me, no amount of prayers and meditation can achieve. This is my belief, but I know some guys who feel ill at ease just being near animals.:singhsippingcoffee:
Jasbirkeleka ji so wonderfully stated. People who cannot relate to animals, in my thinking have no chance of living in consonance with creation or the ability to find so called "naam", waheguru, etc.

Isn't there also a saying for dogs at least that,

Selecting a dog is the only choice you have in your life to pick a relative.
R2.jpg

R1.jpg


Believe it or not at one time I was in the way of our family getting a dog. Now he trusts me more than anyone else in the house.

By the way the breed is "Tibetan Spaniel" raised originally by the monks in Tibet as watch dogs (acute sense of presence, hearing, smell, vibrations, etc.) and bed warmers (very fast metabolism). They don't have hair but fur and shed the undercoat they grow for winter in early spring. They are also known as mini-Lions because of their composure and I believe ours does not think he is mini at all lol.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Ishna

Writer
SPNer
What about wayward animals? The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently). Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?

Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development? For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?

It is easy to see our loving pets who have known nothing but love give pretty much nothing but love in return, and extent that sentiment to all domestic pets, when they're actually very different from each other depending on how they've been raised.

There was a female fighter dog at the local animal shelter, she was in a run yard, and some puppies were in the run yard next to her, and the attendant wasn't supervising at the time, and one puppy got a bit too curious and somehow the fighter dog managed to get hold of the puppy's leg under the yard fence... so she ripped it off. The puppy died. Is that consonance?

Are domestic pets really living in consonance with creation or are they living in consonance with the Will of Humans? Is that consonance?
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
People who cannot relate to animals, in my thinking have no chance of living in consonance with creation or the ability to find so called "naam", waheguru, etc

Veer ji we relate to our animals because we consider them ours,but to find Waheguru you have to relate and consider other people as ours ,that ofcourse is considerably harder to do than loving ones dog,although I love mine do I love the next door neighbours one as much?
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Ishna Bhain ji and sp veer ji thanks for your posts. Some comments for consideration.

Ishna Bhain ji's observations first.
What about wayward animals? The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently). Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?
What makes Lions not to go for delicacies if these happen to be humans for some of them? Taste is also what they are born with. If i happen to be the one they want to eat and attack me then we have three choices. Defend myself, allow them to eat, or kill and save the pelt as a trophy so it does not go to waste. All are in consonance.

Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development? For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?
Evil (ਪਾਪ/Paap) is not transferable. Evil is the trainer/custodian and not the dog.

There was a female fighter dog at the local animal shelter, she was in a run yard, and some puppies were in the run yard next to her, and the attendant wasn't supervising at the time, and one puppy got a bit too curious and somehow the fighter dog managed to get hold of the puppy's leg under the yard fence... so she ripped it off. The puppy died. Is that consonance?
The wolf behavior in a dog is consonance. Who ever brought them near to each other is the wrong doer.

Are domestic pets really living in consonance with creation or are they living in consonance with the Will of Humans? Is that consonance?
If dogs have the ability and flexibility and capability to live with others and be happy and loving, that is the higher state of consonance where species share a loving relationship. Just like we encourage inter-faith dialog here at spn.

Sp ji comments on your post below,
Veer ji we relate to our animals because we consider them ours,but to find Waheguru you have to relate and consider other people as ours ,that of course is considerably harder to do than loving ones dog,
Failure to live with our own species is not the basis of excluding living in consonance with others.

although I love mine do I love the next door neighbours one as much?

That is the attachment/moh thief in you. If you did love the next door dog more than his/her family that will be perhaps very agonizing to the next door dog because he will miss the attachment with you a lot while spending most of his time next door. This is one reason that I find it futile to eradicate so called thieves.
Even the dogs innately are more attached to their own family compared to strangers. That is in the creation we all are and is nothing foreign.


Sat Sri Akal and one mundahug for Ishna ji and one mundahug for sp ji.
 
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What about wayward animals? The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently). Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?

Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development? For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?

It is easy to see our loving pets who have known nothing but love give pretty much nothing but love in return, and extent that sentiment to all domestic pets, when they're actually very different from each other depending on how they've been raised.

There was a female fighter dog at the local animal shelter, she was in a run yard, and some puppies were in the run yard next to her, and the attendant wasn't supervising at the time, and one puppy got a bit too curious and somehow the fighter dog managed to get hold of the puppy's leg under the yard fence... so she ripped it off. The puppy died. Is that consonance?

Are domestic pets really living in consonance with creation or are they living in consonance with the Will of Humans? Is that consonance?

Ishna ji,
Man is the most dangerous living-being on earth. Animals hunt only when they are hungry, or attack only when they feel that there is a threat,real or imagined to their life.
But in the case of Man it is just the opposite.More the powerful he gets, hungrier he gets for more power. As history proves, to attain that, he has been much,much more cruel, vicious and revengeful than any other animal can ever be.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Ishna ji,
Man is the most dangerous living-being on earth. Animals hunt only when they are hungry, or attack only when they feel that there is a threat,real or imagined to their life.
But in the case of Man it is just the opposite.More the powerful he gets, hungrier he gets for more power. As history proves, to attain that, he has been much,much more cruel, vicious and revengeful than any other animal can ever be.

Animals do attack and kill each other when they want to mate and grab power from other males
.Carnivores hate each other and whenever there is oppurtunity they kill other carnivores to eliminate competetion .Male chimpanzee sometimes steal baby chimpanzees from their mothers and eat them

sorry animals are not so innocent as they are portrayed
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
kds1980 ji thanks for your post and one comment,
sorry animals are not so innocent as they are portrayed
kds1980 ji hopefully you did not read my portrayal to be innocence of the animals. For example if someone brings goodies from outside and makes a call to come eat, our mini-Lion makes it very clear that he comes first and comes to attack/stop others from joining the feast. Mind you his protestation never succeeds but nevertheless his instincts are sharp as ever. He is born with this and it is not taught so. We live with him as such an understanding.

There are whole bunch of animal practices in the wild like killing the old males, eating the young, deserting the weaklings, pushing babies out of nest, fighting to death for territory, etc., that in a human context would be abhorrent. Animals don't pretend, they do and as much as we could understand, then we will see. For me that is their consonance and not something wrong. It feels so because we don't or can not live or think like them.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
No animal has ever exterminated 6 million Jews..( Hitler). and caused untold misery to another 50 million worldwide.....or starved 25 million soviets (Stalin)..or massacred a few thousand sikhs ( just becasue a so called Big tree fell !!) ..or threw atomic bombs on cities to kill millions...etc etc.
Animals may not be "innocent" but they do it by INSTINCT...unlike Man who does it on PURPOSE..thats the big difference..
I have 9 dogs..all one family...with mummy/daddy and siblings form various generations (3)...and they know each human's schedule to the quarter hour...meaning I get up at 2.30 am.....one or two will creep up quietly around 2.15 and lick my feet gently..no barking loudly etc...and once i awaken..they wag their tails and go back to sleep....till...5.30 am when the go to wake my wife...then at 6.15 my school going kids...8.30..9.40..10.30..various children going to work...and at night they wait for the last person to come home..they know when its Rehrass time..when its time for my fav tv show...and of course their own walk times..dinner times etc..Walk is 5.30 PM..and i have yet to look at the clock and find its (early) 5.15 or 5.45 (late)...when they pick up their leashes and put them at my feet..its exactly 5.25-5.35 give or take 10 minutes.....and each one knows his her individual dish....sleep mat..etc..in fact when our friends visit and find all 9 seated in front of the TV listening to Darbar sahib Live Kirtan from PTC Amrtisar..they joke..about dogs listening to kirtan..BUT its not a JOKE...sometimes when I ma away and the TV is not ON..they will bark to show its time to watch Kirtan...my son will come down..ON the TV and go back upstairs...all the dogs seated in peace...so YES I do LOVe my dogs and I do think they are much better than humans in many ways than one...
 

Ishna

Writer
SPNer
Thanks for the replies.

Ambarsaria ji: are you saying that no matter how much a human interferes with an animal, they can never exist outside of consonance, or outside of hukam?

Of course, animals do what animals do even if some of it is cruel from a human perspective. It is curious when humans get all fired up because their buddy was eaten by a shark while swimming in the ocean, and then go and hunt and kill the shark in return. It makes me sick. The planet would be better off without all of us humans who just meddle meddle meddle, but then perhaps that's just OUR instinct, and if everything instinctual is in consonance, then so are we.

Harry ji: my rodents aren't very Sikh, they over-groom themselves and their mates and cause bald patches! Oh no! (sarcasm) The also don't wear turbans, shorts, karas or kirpans!
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Ishna Bhain ji couple of comments,

Ambarsaria ji: are you saying that no matter how much a human interferes with an animal, they can never exist outside of consonance, or outside of hukam?
It is of course, such can be trained to live out of consonance but that is in the hands of the master. Same as humans. I suppose bad mothers, fathers and characters exist in all species so some also live out of consonance there. To know the exact numbers I have to be one of them!
my rodents aren't very Sikh, they over-groom themselves and their mates and cause bald patches! Oh no! (sarcasm) The also don't wear turbans, shorts, karas or kirpans!
I personally did not like the title but I thought some liberties are OK as long as there is civil discourse and sometimes such actually brings out "out of the box thinking" which is refreshing.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
My point regarding animals is that they do not have to try hard to be enlightened, the heady heights of enlightenment we seek as humans is simply losing what makes us different to animals, yes, animals are not the innocent cuddly things we have in our homes, they are violent, predatory, but they do all these things as per consonance, in fact, they owe it to themselves to behave in such a manner, you rarely see fat animals in the wild, or animals over indulging, animals do not need to seek therapy, or have counselling, they just behave as Creator intended,

If you read the Mool Mantra, you will see that most animals already adhere to the concepts as laid out. If a small man meets a big man, more often than not the small man will not goad the bigger man, sure he will defend himself if need be, but he will not pointlessly goad, I have lost count of the amount of times I am out walking the dogs, and a small dog will start to bark and try and goad Alfie (Flat coat), in the animal world, I guess this is saying I am smaller than you, but I am not afraid of you, animals do not smoke or pollute their body, or their environment, if the meaning of life is to be at one with the universe, animals are better at it than we are, which in my view, makes them more sikhi than me :sippingcoffeemunda:
 

kds1980

SPNer
My point regarding animals is that they do not have to try hard to be enlightened, the heady heights of enlightenment we seek as humans is simply losing what makes us different to animals, yes, animals are not the innocent cuddly things we have in our homes, they are violent, predatory, but they do all these things as per consonance, in fact, they owe it to themselves to behave in such a manner, you rarely see fat animals in the wild, or animals over indulging, animals do not need to seek therapy, or have counselling, they just behave as Creator intended,

Animals behave in manner in the type of environment they are living.You can never see a fat animal because in most of cases that animal will either killed by predators or die whenever he fights with other male.Those who are studying animals from years do accept that behaviour of animals do change with time or with the environmental conditions they get.There are many cases where the change in behaviour is temporary or permanent

The same argument is applicable on Humans too.Majority of us behave in the same way as the environment we got while growing up.A boy born in among Talibans in Afghanistan ,who never had access to TV internet or anything will end up becoming suicide bomber because this is all the education he gets .that was his environment while growing up
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Shakespeare in Hamlet said:
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—

Man is the paragon of animals because an animal may sacrifice itself for it's own,but a man can sacrifice himself for the principle of others.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Kdsji,

You are confirming my point, consonance takes care of all the fat, useless animals, but it does not take care of the all the fat, useless humans, we are powerful enough to outstay our welcome even when we have become a drain on creation not a contribution, unfortunately, the essence of fat, useless humans drags creation down, so a price is paid for this.

I found your last line quite broad, "A boy born in among Talibans in Afghanistan ,who never had access to TV internet or anything will end up becoming suicide bomber because this is all the education he gets .that was his environment while growing up"

I am sure this applies only a to a minority, Kdsji, in fact, in such an environment, I would think many more would end up far more enlightened than if they had access to TV and internet, why? because they would have to think for themselves, and survive in the environment they were in


Amanji I do promise to get the hang of this quote thing, I will read your instructions again later today
 
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kds1980

SPNer
Kdsji,

You are confirming my point, consonance takes care of all the fat, useless animals, but it does not take care of the all the fat, useless humans, we are powerful enough to outstay our welcome even when we have become a drain on creation not a contribution, unfortunately, the essence of fat, useless humans drags creation down, so a price is paid for this.

I don't understand your point,you mean dieing because you are fat or ill is in in agreement with nature? BTW there are animals that do survive if they are useless,For example lioness give excellent treatment to their sister if she gets injured so animals which are living a social life can survive if they are fat or ill.And yes few unpreyable bulls do become fat when food is in abundance.

I am sure this applies only a to a minority, Kdsji, in fact, in such an environment, I would think many more would end up far more enlightened than if they had access to TV and internet, why? because they would have to think for themselves, and survive in the environment they were in




Amanji I do promise to get the hang of this quote thing, I will read your instructions again later today

It does not apply to minority.Look at China out of 1.34 billion chinese only 10-20 million know english rest only know chinese so all what they read in Chinese and watch Chinese which comes from propaganda from their govt.Taliban growing boy was just an example .Majority of humans on planet still behave in the type of environment they grow.majority of humans on earth still behave in that manner
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Kdsji

I am absolutely saying that being fat or being ill for certain reasons is in line with nature, allow me to illustrate this with a personal reflection, I am fat, well, ok a bit chubby, not obese, and I have been ill, actually I should be dead, for years I abused my body with all sorts of bad things, bad food, bad drink, other things, to the point where my arteries clogged up, and I ended up needing lifesaving treatment. I should have died, if I was an animal, I had stepped out of order of things, and my body had reacted as it would, I did not die, (obviously), but I should have

Creation is much more than the personality of me, of my needs, my desires, Creation is an all encompassing sum, I am irrelevant, the concept makes great sense until illness happens to you or someone you love, but each time we unclog someones arteries, we are interfering with consonance, animals do not do this, they accept that actions have consequences, it makes their actions more in tune with consonance than ours, as we have 'get out of jail' cards

As for the chinese, trust me, even those that do not speak english are not as passive or uninformed as you may think, alarm bells can ring in chinese as easily as english, many will know in their hearts something is not right, all dissidents are not just english speaking
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
As human beings we have been blessed with reason, hooray! This enables us to cheat, lie, surrender to our ego, dominate other members of our species, dominate other species, and make changes to our environment that are not consistent with the order of things, consonance.

This comes back in my view, to being true. Animals, plants, on the whole are true to themselves, they are true to the essence of Creator that resides within them, they follow and do what they were meant to do, and in doing so confirm themselves as fully fledged members of creation.

What do we do? We lie, we are not true to ourselves, how ironic that the meaning of life is to give up lying, cheating, ego, pride, attachment, until we are pure enough to behave like the very animals we wish to dominate, I have a few theories as to why hair is so important, but this again confirms the need to return to the whole, to innocence, to be complete, to behave as creator intended, like animals, we can learn a lot from our animal neighbours, we can learn to be ourselves.

So we learn, we study, we pray, we do sewa, in the hope that one day We can tune into the essence of Creator that animals are already in tune with, so that we can find the enlightenment that is already there, maybe we look too hard for enlightenment, instead of gaining enlightenment, we should just concentrate on losing all the obstructions that are weakening our connection, how animals are lucky, they can just get on with living and being part of creation

I disagree. We have reason to overcome our animal instincts.

Animals mate with whoever they want (Kaam). Animals gorge themselves and seldom share (Lobh). The other instincts like Krodh, Hankaar and Moh could probably be ovserved in animal species.

I would argue, it is our reason that prevents us from being like animals. Dwelling in the 5 thieves is basically like an animal.

When you don't dwell in them, you become human.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Randipji

I agree that Reason should have improved on what animals have achieved in the way of consonance, however it has not, it has made things worse, where reason should have made us realise what we are doing to our planet and our bodies, instead reason and intelligence just allows us to cheat the system.

your two points

Animals mate with whoever-I could say this is ensuring the species continues, animals do not live as humans do, also, I am pretty sure there are only a few species that procreate for fun or pleasure

Animals gorge themselves-again this is survival, we live surrounded by fridges full of food, animals have a survival instinct, I am pretty sure they do not gorge beyond what they need, or indeed there would be more fat animals.

I argue that our reason is a two sided sword, it can be used to raise ourselves above animals in the spirit of truth, honesty and sharing, or it can be used to cheat the system, allowing us to act in any way we want, and the use our wisdom to change the effects of consonance.

Look at all the huge amount of money spent on cosmetic surgery, heart bypasses for unhealthy people, diabetic treatment for people who ate too much chocolate, in fact any surgery for ailments that have been caused by lifestyle, that is our way of cheating, of living against consonance and having the resources to change fate, good reason would be to use all these resources for a cure against say cancer, or feed the hungry, or ensure everyone on this planet has the tools and resources to fulfill his or her potential, most animals have this luxury, a lot of humans do not, and the ones that do, fritter it away on the thieves
 
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