Whom Are The Gurus Calling Shiv In Gurbaanee?

[TGill]

Hi Balbir ji

My Quote: "Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."
Your Quote: Please ask God. Why His Show is running?

- What is the correlation? By the way, God is not running the show, he is playing it !! One comes to know it when the time comes, otherwise he preaches like you and me.


My Quote: "So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it !"
Your Quote: Better get straight with your mind. Should one come to know all God's manifestations first and realize Shiv. Or he should come to know Shiv first to realize all God's manifestations.

- Again whats the relation between my quote and yours . I said come to know shiv, it is better than asking others, right!
However, what is the difference in your statements. Both will happen simultaneously, isn't it?


My quote: "And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv."
Your quote: It may take many eighty four-lakh joonies to know all or one comes to know truth of One Naam in this life.

- True, but depending upon what, us or his grace ?


My quote: "It's better not to explain shiv."
Your quote: Knowing why the Gurus are singing Shiv would be interesting.

- Whom do you think Guruji is explaining shiv to by singing?


My Quote: "The name is not important, the manifestation is !"
Your Wuote: To realize the importance of the name one must experience it through the true Guru. Borrowed information does not help.
The manifestation is important for the worshipers of sculptures.

- Right, so lets come to know it, borrowed info doesn't work.


My Quote: "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?

- Exactly my point. So lets stop preaching

 

[Archived_Member1]

May I ask why did you write "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
Also, the reverend Gurus never use a word that has dual meaning.

Quote "guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times,"
The Gurus also do not write that Shiv is one of many Gods. At least I have not found it once.

here we have shiva as guru.

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā­ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

but here we see shiva is affected by maya, which means he is clearly NOT guru.

Barahmā bisan mahės ṯarai guṇ sir ḏẖanḏẖai lā­i­ā.
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, under the influence of the three dispositions, were put to their tasks.

also note that here we have shiva as a created being, and clearly part of the "hindu" trinity. (no guru did not say hindu, i did.) again, in this line shiva is clearly NOT guru.

Pavaṇ pāṇī agan ṯin kī­ā barahmā bisan mahės akār.
He created air, water and fire, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva - the whole creation.

here we see that those who follow shiva are on the wrong path. how can that be true if the guru and shiva are the same? unless guru sahib is using the name shiva in different context, in different meanings?

Īsar barahmā sėvḏė anṯ ṯinĥī na lahī­ā.
Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord.

please enlighten me. i have always thought that gurbani was full of allegory and referred to the current mythology in order to be more easily understood by the people. it seems i'm wrong? i'd love to learn more.

thanks,
kelly

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

I like your Smily. These are two of your sentences where the Smily is smiling for you.

Quote "However, what is the difference in your statements. Both will happen simultaneously, isn't it?"
Is someone waiting for the future to happen?

Strange, those who are waiting for the future write "It's better not to explain shiv."
Those who have realized Shiv are singing.

ਭਾਉ ਨ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਾ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ॥
भाउ न भगती ना सिव सकती ॥
"bhaa-o na bhagtee naa siv saktee." SGGS Ang 1036-4

ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
सिव सकती घरि वासा पाइआ ॥
"siv saktee ghar vaasaa paa-i-aa." SGGS Ang 1027-1


Your Quote is "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
My Query is "I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?"
Your Answer is "Exactly my point. So lets stop preaching."
My Observation is "Some go on suggesting others. Please wear a pullover. I am feeling cold."


Balbir Singh

 

[Astroboy]

Quoted by Kelly,
"Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā­ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi."

There is another English translation on this line:

Guru replaces Ishvar, Vishnu Brahma and Mai Parbati.

In other words, Guru becomes everything in devotion.

Quoted by Kelly,
"Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."

Quoted by TGill,
So lets stop preaching

I fully agree with both Kelly and TGill.

No one of above another in SPN. We should all act in sincerity. No one likes to be cornered and faced with twisted questioning.
If true Guru is necessary, then come straight to the point - discuss what is true guru.

begum

 

[Archived_Member1]

recheck my post, i never said anything about preaching.

thanks.

 

[Astroboy]

correction, that was TGill's quote. Sorry for the mix up.

begum

 

[drkhalsa]

Thanks Balbir Singh Ji and others for the disscusion and posts

It helps give my mind a stir and that for good


What I think is GOD is not something Objective or object in any sense so in other words cant be described in direct sense

So the other way is the using the attributes of GOD to describe or talk about it

Shiv is in similar fashion Attribute of God that described in simple language denotes the return of Manifested to unmenifested or destruction/death something like that

So in real sense cant be HINDU or SIKH god , although we use such statement in language and writing based on historical use of the term SHIV


Thanks

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful references from Guru Naanak Dev Jee.
Gurdev is explaining me this way.

Reference from Gurdev is "gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee." SGGS Ang 2-9
Guru is Eesar. The guru is Gorakh, Barmaa. The guru is the Paarbatee mother.

Sikh preachers plead. Naanak is the Guru.
Guru Naanak Jee is confirming that the Guru is Eesar, Gorakh, Barmaa and Mother Paarbatee.
God blesses one. He meets, listens and understands Gurdev.

**************

Quote "but here we see shiva is affected by maya, which means he is clearly NOT guru."

Reference from Gurdev is "barahmaa bisan mahays tarai gun sir DhanDhai laa-i-aa." SGGS Ang 509-10
Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh three Attributes are assigned in the row.

I do not know which words here are saying that Shiv is affected by Maya, which means he is clearly not the guru.

**************

Quote "also note that here we have shiva as a created being, and clearly part of the "hindu" trinity. (no guru did not say hindu, i did.) again, in this line shiva is clearly NOT guru."

Reference from Gurdev is "pavan paanee agan tin kee-aa barahmaa bisan mahays akaar." SGGS Ang 504-1
Air, Water, Fire HE did Brahmaa, Vishnu, Mahesh and Forms.

This holy Vaak from Gurdev is also not saying that Shiv is Hindu or he is clearly not the guru.

**************

Quote "here we see that those who follow shiva are on the wrong path. how can that be true if the guru and shiva are the same? unless guru sahib is using the name shiva in different context, in different meanings?"

Reference from Gurdev is "eesar barahmaa sayvday ant tinHee na lahee-aa." SGGS Ang 516-15
Eesar and Brahmaa serve. They also did not find the end.

The reverend Gurus often sing. Nobody has found HIS End including the Gurus.

**************

Quote "please enlighten me. i have always thought that gurbani was full of allegory and referred to the current mythology in order to be more easily understood by the people. it seems i'm wrong? i'd love to learn more."
Gurbaanee is Truth to enliven. It is possible only with the growth of consciousness through True Naam Simran.
Nobody can enliven Gurbaanee by analyzing Guru's words.


Balbir Singh

 

[Archived_Member1]

apparently the english translations i have read are incorrect. thank you for sharing your translations with me.

gurfateh.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Thanks Balbir Singh Ji and others for the disscusion and posts

It helps give my mind a stir and that for good


What I think is GOD is not something Objective or object in any sense so in other words cant be described in direct sense

So the other way is the using the attributes of GOD to describe or talk about it

Shiv is in similar fashion Attribute of God that described in simple language denotes the return of Manifested to unmenifested or destruction/death something like that

So in real sense cant be HINDU or SIKH god , although we use such statement in language and writing based on historical use of the term SHIV

yes, i agree completely. i don't think i have been able to articulate this clearly. agreed, we use known attributes to describe God who is unknowable. that's all i was trying to say.

 

[seeking truth]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
I want to know why Sikhs are so confused.


Balbir Singh

sat sri akaal to everyone,
guru jee clearly says in Chaupayee Sahib the (mahandev ko kehat sada shiv nirankar kaa cheenat neh bhen) means people are saying mahandev as shiva but guru jee's are clearly saying shiva to almighty waheguru not to hindu's shiva(mahandev)

 

[Sikh80]

Dear Sir,
It has also been stated in SGGS ji that even Shiva cannot attain Naam/God. It is obvious that shiv is not God as per gurbani

 

[Randip Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
I want to know why Sikhs are so confused.


Balbir Singh

My understanding is that the word Shiv is used in two context in Dasam Granth.

In one respect describing another word for God (that a Hindu audience would understand).

In another it is directlt refring yto Shiv and a Hindu God.

PS Note Guruji states that Shiv ji becomes a victim of "Kaal".

 

[dilpuri]

Gur Fateh Ji,
I want to clear that Shiv, Ram and Murari and many more are the names of Akal Purkah. What I feel I can call god by any name, only thing involved is the sense where the word is used.
Shiv,Ram and Murari etc might has used in both ways some times for for shiv ji, Ram Chander Ji and for Krishan Ji.
These powers were go great that there was no difference in Akal Purkh and these people. Like in Tuk
Har Harjan Doi Ek hein Vibh Vichar kichu naihen.
Like in Tu deho shiva bar Mohe Ihe.
Here it refered to Akal Purkah where in above tuk karan palaah karahi siv dayv
It is clear that shiv world is for Shiv Ji.
We have to look for the sense

 

[dilpuri]

Gur Fateh Ji,
I want to clear that Shiv, Ram and Murari and many more are the names of Akal Purkah. What I feel I can call god by any name, only thing involved is the sense where the word is used.
Shiv,Ram and Murari etc might has used in both ways some times for for shiv ji, Ram Chander Ji and for Krishan Ji.
These powers were go great that there was no difference in Akal Purkh and these people. Like in Tuk
Har Harjan Doi Ek hein Vibh Vichar kichu naihen.
Like in Tuk deho shiva bar Mohe Ihe.
Here it refered to Akal Purkah where in next tuk karan palaah karahi siv dayv
It is clear that shiv world is for Shiv Ji.
We have to look for the sense

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

All is God. We are HIS Sarguna Saroop. God's Sarguna Saroop comes into existence with HIS Will. It sustains and merges again in God.
The shiv is God's Attribute that comes into existence to fulfill HIS Will in a certain way. It also takes birth at first and merges into God at the end. Nothing remains after whole existence merges into God back.
Only God remains.

Contemplating this one may read any Vaak from Gurbaanee. He may understand it that Shiv is the same always.
To realize Shiv, one needs to grow at conscious mind by true Naam Simran.


Balbir Singh

 

[TGill]

Hi Balbir ji
I'm sorry but I have few questions if you don't mind. I'm not being sarcastic unlike I usually am.

- What is the meaning of Sarguna.. Heard this word a lot but whenever I hear it I doze off. I promise this time I won't.
- What attribute of God does Shiva represent ?

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "Hi Balbir ji"
Hi Hi TG ill Jee

Quote "I'm sorry but I have few questions if you don't mind."
Why should someone else mind it when you have questions and feel sorry?

Quote "I'm not being sarcastic unlike I usually am."
Some Jeevs claim they can change colors.

Question "What is the meaning of Sarguna."
'Sa' means 'sah' with. For example sahpaathee means a classmate.
'R' means active energy.
'Guna' means quality, characteristic, property, worth, distinction, talent etc.
Sarguna means with active Gunas.

Quote "What attribute of God does Shiva represent ?"
God's Attributes as Shiv are unaccountable.
One is not only living every moment. One is dying every moment too while continuing with every moment. One is also separating from every moment.
Perhaps you wish to find out what is Shiv behind those.
Please come to know true Simran.


Balbir Singh

 

[TGill]

Hey thanks Balbir ji... that was a pretty creative salutation.. you can use it whenever you feel angry. Might be helpful !

Quote: Perhaps you wish to find out what is Shiv behind those. Please come to know true simran.

- Thats what I said earlier, better not explain shiv, you won't be able to explain it ! Lets come to know true simran.
- Everyone said the same thing that you said now, I can't find a single difference.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "Hey thanks Balbir ji... that was a pretty creative salutation.. you can use it whenever you feel angry. Might be helpful !"
I overlooked your salutation in one previous post where you used the non Sikh style of greeting too.
So I feel quit to greet you also twice with 'Hi'. I hope you do not feel ignored now.

They should learn from the Guru's mouth Gurmukhi first who want to forget saying Satsriakaal later.

Quote "Thats what I said earlier, better not explain shiv, you won't be able to explain it !"
Thank God. Truth is the same, unexplainable.
Perhaps some may agree that the true Gurus are singing HIM still.

Quote "Lets come to know true simran."
I wish you and your world much luck.

Quote "Everyone said the same thing that you said now, I can't find a single difference."
Some live truth. Others live comparing and prejudicing.
You understood it. I hope it remains.


Balbir Singh