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Who Is Marrying Sikh Men?

findingmyway

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One interesting thing : did you observe not a single sikh girl commented in this thread. Defended themselves or saying what I am saying is wrong or untrue.
Firstly I am not a girl but a WOMAN and secondly actually I did. See both my posts above. You seemed to have ignored me as so many Indian men do when I disagree with them and therefore you have supported my point about lack of equality and respect. I state again for ultimate clarity - I DO NOT find a man without turban and beard attractive and would not marry one as his moral values/lifestyle are less likely to agree with mine. ALL the women in my family including those in India are married to Sikh men WITH beard and turban.

Everything in India is the woman's fault! A man doesn't defend himself but the woman must ALWAYS have a defence for thinking and having opinions yellingsardarni
 
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Navdeep88

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@lucky singh

read d below article (2004 TOI)

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-09-08/chandigarh/27158362_1_sikh-community-ratio-specific-abortions

What ever the reason the ground reality is shocking.

One interesting thing : did you observe not a single sikh girl commented in this thread. Defended themselves or saying what I am saying is wrong or untrue.

rest i will reply later to your comment later .

1) Why is being Sikh & punjabi Synonomous? They're totally Different. Sikhs don't kill Daughters or get Crazy Drunk or anything, PLENTY of Punjabi Men Do.
2)Turban, No Turban, Green Yellow, Purple, What makes a PERSON Stand out, is the Specific Characteristics they Embody to another. Religiousity is One of those Characterisitics, if Someone chooses to Look for it.
3)Findingmyway Ji, is Female.
 
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Ishna

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dakkuSingh (the atheist with a Sikh name)

I'm female, a "convert", and if I wasn't married to a non-Sikh prior to my committment to Sikhi I would have pursued options for marriage to a turbaned, honourable Sikh (nationality not important) man. Turban doesn't automatically mean honourale or Sikh!

The sex ratio is a cultural problem, not a Sikh one. I've observed from the outside, you can't look at Punjab as an area full of Sikhs. It's an area full of Punjabis, only some of whom are truly Sikhs.

Ideally no-one would be "born Sikh", they would be given the choice to come to Sikhi by Guru's grace. There are too many half-Sikhs and forced-Sikhs and Sikhs just not getting the message. Perhaps Sikhs should do what the Amish do, push their kids out of the community for a year when they're adults and let them come back if they want to. Consider the extreme, chop off their hair, male or female, when they turn 15 and let them choose what they want to do. What are we aiming for, quality or quantity??
 
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Feb 23, 2012
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dakkuSingh (the atheist with a Sikh name)

I'm female, a "convert", and if I wasn't married to a non-Sikh prior to my committment to Sikhi I would have pursued options for marriage to a turbaned, honourable Sikh (nationality not important) man. Turban doesn't automatically mean honourale or Sikh!

The sex ratio is a cultural problem, not a Sikh one. I've observed from the outside, you can't look at Punjab as an area full of Sikhs. It's an area full of Punjabis, only some of whom are truly Sikhs.

Ideally no-one would be "born Sikh", they would be given the choice to come to Sikhi by Guru's grace. There are too many half-Sikhs and forced-Sikhs and Sikhs just not getting the message. Perhaps Sikhs should do what the Amish do, push their kids out of the community for a year when they're adults and let them come back if they want to. Consider the extreme, chop off their hair, male or female, when they turn 15 and let them choose what they want to do. What are we aiming for, quality or quantity??
I am completely with you on this sister winkingmunda
Personally, I note this problem in many different religious communities, not least my own. I do not think that anyone should be born "Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, atheist" etc.

If I were a parent, I would not deign to have my child baptised or attend mass but neither would I feel the right to impose my belief system on him/her. I would strive to give them as broad an education in a free mind as possible so that, when they reached adulthood, they had the opportunity to use their God-given freedom of conscience and follow that conscience wherever it led them, even if that be away from the religion I consider to be the one for me.

There was an excellent saying of the Church Father Tertullian, which encapsulates the attitude of the Early Christian Church and which I feel modern Christianity has lost:


"...We come from among your stock and nature; Christians are made not born..."

- Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225 AD), Early Church Father


I feel that we have lost this sentiment. Christianity has become in many respects a lazy, monopoly religion that one inherits from one's parents, or at least the values of it at some level, largely as a result of living in a Western country or within Western culture. And so you often find low levels of actual dedication within much of Christianity, a kind of nominal "belief" born from a deeply-instilled duty to "go through" the motions so to speak and attend mass and outwardly be a Christian without any true, inward renewal and/or change of heart.

I would also stress that men are not born Christians, Sikhs, Muslims or whatever else. It is always a process, a journey of the individual soul to find his own way to God and become a Christian or Sikh or Muslim. It is a continual journey of becoming not a static state of being simply on the basis of birth-right.

Tertullian's insight is perhaps the reason for many cultural Christians failing to successfully negotiate the shift from community faith to personal faith. Some of these cultural Christians will return later in life when they have owned their faith for themselves whilst others will not.

Faith is a verb it grows and develops throughout one's life.
 
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Hardip Singh

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Well, I think the whole topic has taken a wrong turn.

First, Let us conclude who is a SIKH. Just you are keeping unshorn hair, a good flowing beard with a nice turban on your head does not make you a SIKH. You are just born in a Sikh family and thats why you are keeping all these. As per Guru Sahib a Sikh is one who (besides keeping kesh and wearing turban etc.) belives in ONE GOD and adheres to the life style as clearly told in the SGGS jee.

Now the one person who so ever he is, who does not adhere to the Guru's way of life or HIS teachings is not at all a Sikh. He could be labelled a Sehjdhari or an thing else you name. I can confirm to the best of my knowledge that such a Sikh boy or girl will never love or marry some one who does not belives in Guru Sahib's taechings and way of life.

So, lets come to the real figures of such inter-religion marriages. You will hardly find any real SIkh as stated above going for such inter-religion marriage. Defination of a real Sikh has to be taken first.
 

Harry Haller

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Hardipji

I found your post quite strange.....

I fail the ability to call myself a Sikh on various points as per what you have stated.

your conclusion of what makes a Sikh is just that, your conclusion.

The SRM states that

Sikh Reht Maryada

SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS
Section One

CHAPTER 1
The Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

I can confirm to the best of my knowledge that such a Sikh boy or girl will never love or marry some one who does not belives in Guru Sahib's taechings and way of life.
So, lets come to the real figures of such inter-religion marriages. You will hardly find any real SIkh as stated above going for such inter-religion marriage. Defination of a real Sikh has to be taken first.
These are very definitive comments, but having said that, I would imagine very few 'real' Sikhs , as stated, actually exist, We are all works in progress.
 

Hardip Singh

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Hardipji

I found your post quite strange.....

I fail the ability to call myself a Sikh on various points as per what you have stated.

your conclusion of what makes a Sikh is just that, your conclusion.

The SRM states that

Sikh Reht Maryada

SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS
Section One

CHAPTER 1
The Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh





These are very definitive comments, but having said that, I would imagine very few 'real' Sikhs , as stated, actually exist, We are all works in progress.
This is what I exactly meant. Thanks for elobrating my words.
 

Hardip Singh

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Hardipji

These are very definitive comments, but having said that, I would imagine very few 'real' Sikhs , as stated, actually exist, We are all works in progress.

In SGGS jee, its said " Sikhi khanoo tikhi waloon nikki". Hard fact, Sir. their are very few true Sikhs (like you) are there.
 

Harry Haller

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Hardipji

I have been described using many flowery terms in my life, but I am not sure anyone has ever labelled me a true Sikh before.

Given my lack of hair/beard and indulgence in inter religion marriage you could be mistaken lol
 

dakkuSingh

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Hardipji

I have been described using many flowery terms in my life, but I am not sure anyone has ever labelled me a true Sikh before.

Given my lack of hair/beard and indulgence in inter religion marriage you could be mistaken lol
Mr Harry Haller if you are so into sikh religion , y don't u start keeping a beard and turban. If you have given yourself to lord, What r u afraid of? R r afraid that you might not be accepted by ur family,friends, spouse or children.?
There is a difference between saying a thing and actually doing it.
I have said before, i will say that again, toughest thing sikh religion makes its follower to do, is wear a turban and keep beard. Which is not at all easy.
There is nothing wrong with sikh religion, its most modern and open minded religion. But most of it ardent follower these days are those who don't keep turban or beard.
I don't know whether you people believe it or not, but a bearded and turbaned man will never appear attractive to majority of women of sikh or other religion. In sikh religion where most of the marriage are arranged and skewed sex ratio leaves sikh boys with nothing.
I have seen many of my sikh friends are struggling to find their spouses, even after trying for few years.
So my believe is, a religion which makes it male follower at a great disadvantage at a such important event in his life, is not worth following. If this cant be done then don't force them to keep turban and beard. And dont socially ostracized them. They are human for god sake.
 

Luckysingh

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Dakkusingh ji, I'm sorry that the beard and turban have given you these negative experiences. s
But in reality, would you really want to be married to someone that judges you on your beard/turban appearance ?

I can't really say as I never had beard/turban during my jawani when I came across to females as very attractive. I'm not sure if they would have thought so if I had turban and beard.
There is no denying, I mean I only have to look around and see the efforts made by Singhs with turbans and perfectly trimmed (5 o'clock shadow) beards.
Why do they go through with all this effort ? - Answer is simple!!!

I don't think the majority of us actually realise thes problems that some sikhs face depending on age and location.

Waheguru
 

findingmyway

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Surely a woman who judges on beard/turban isn't worth the effort and thinking about! Likewise a man who judges a woman for having kesh isn't worth the effort. People need to stop crying and blaming and start taking responsibility for their own actions. Stand up for what you believe or own the beliefs weren't that strong anyway. Relationships are not worth the sacrifice of who you are :mundaviolin:motherlylove:motherlylove:
 

Harry Haller

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Mr Harry Haller if you are so into sikh religion , y don't u start keeping a beard and turban.
strangely enough, this is the first question fellow Sikhs ask me when I talk about Sikhism, I have, several times, grown my hair out with a view to keeping it, but the truth is I do not feel that my insides would match my outside, and that is very important to me, I do not wish to be a false vessel, when the goodness shines through, I have no doubt I will end up with the physical look that I yearn for. Having said that, long hair is no judge of a good Sikh, I know many Sikhs, especially on this forum who have recognised the essence whilst being mona.

If you have given yourself to lord, What r u afraid of? R r afraid that you might not be accepted by ur family,friends, spouse or children.?
I have not given myself to the Lord, I am in the process of such, anyone who has truly given themselves, yes I agree, should get baptised and purse the role of a Khalsa.

Lack of social acceptance has never worried me, if anything, being accepted socially worries me more, I have no friends or children, my father is turbanned, my mother keeps her hair, so no problem in acceptance there, my wife has no interest at all in what I look like, whether I have my hair long, and looking like a bearded Krusty the Clown lookalike, or short with a goatee, makes no difference to her.

There is a difference between saying a thing and actually doing it.
I have said before, i will say that again, toughest thing sikh religion makes its follower to do, is wear a turban and keep beard. Which is not at all easy.
Your getting bogged down in the hair my friend, forget the hair, concentrate on the Bani, and understanding the Bani and then living it, the hair is irrelevant, once you understand the Bani, and you live by it, and it becomes part of you, you will understand about the hair, and only then will it become an issue, or more likely, a non issue :)

There is nothing wrong with sikh religion, its most modern and open minded religion. But most of it ardent follower these days are those who don't keep turban or beard.
I think you could be correct, maybe its because some with the outward physical appearance feel they have 'done their bit', by looking like Khalsa.

I don't know whether you people believe it or not, but a bearded and turbaned man will never appear attractive to majority of women of sikh or other religion. In sikh religion where most of the marriage are arranged and skewed sex ratio leaves sikh boys with nothing.
Maiji would probably disagree with you! Anything different scares people, and what these women may not realise is that people change, no one stays the same, so the person they are marrying may not be that person for ever, may not look like that forever, but then my own personal opinion is that one should be in love with ones partner before marriage, which can of course be hard when it is arranged. If you love someone, you tend not to really care what they look like, love overrides that.

So my believe is, a religion which makes it male follower at a great disadvantage at a such important event in his life, is not worth following. If this cant be done then don't force them to keep turban and beard. And dont socially ostracized them. They are human for god sake.
I have to agree with you, forcing and ostracising are not in line with Sikhi
 

Harry Haller

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I can't really say as I never had beard/turban during my jawani when I came across to females as very attractive. I'm not sure if they would have thought so if I had turban and beard.
I wore a full turban and full beard till 28, was chubby, and my only redeeming feature is that I make people laugh, I do not recall any major problems that the turban caused me with women, several stated that they found it attractive, in fact, thinking about it, the only woman who commented on it negatively, was Indian!, the rest were from the west.
 

Harry Haller

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Surely a woman who judges on beard/turban isn't worth the effort and thinking about! Likewise a man who judges a woman for having kesh isn't worth the effort. People need to stop crying and blaming and start taking responsibility for their own actions. Stand up for what you believe or own the beliefs weren't that strong anyway. Relationships are not worth the sacrifice of who you are :mundaviolin:motherlylove:motherlylove:
Life throws a lot at you, you need to know that your partner is sticking by you for more reasons than what you look like, If someone is going to judge a woman for having long hair, then how the hell is that person going to cope if that woman loses a breast through cancer, or a leg, goes blind, etc., Nabenji stated on another post that Islamic men can remarry if their wives become ill, well women are not commodities, that you can mould and play around with until they become your perfect plaything, such judging is childish and shows strong sense of being fickle, I think the benefits of marrying a strong women with Sikhi in her heart outweigh hugely any physical appearance issues, physical appearances change with time, but a true heart always stays true
 

anon

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I look like a sikh man. I wear a turban and have an un-shaved beard and I can tell you why no one wants to marry a Sikh guy. Its not rocket science, the turban and beard are just unnatractive.It's as simple as that. Lets for a moment forget god and the so called "Spiritual benefits" of keeping facial hair and a turban. Lets just simply acknowledge we are human. I'm no expert on biology, mating principles or even fashion, but there's something about straight lines and symmetry that appeals to us, having a long bushy, wavy beard just throws this off, yeah sure it's natural but it doesn't appeal to humans. I could be wrong, but that's my theory.

Alot of sikh's tie their beard, and while I think this is a somewhat decent compromise at obtaining uniformity and symmetry, it also looks unnatural because it makes that part of the face which has been gelled shiny, and skin is of course not supposed to be shiny, shiny skin looks sweaty and dirty, and to some extent so do gelled beards.

Don't get me wrong, i think tied/gelled/pressed beards look MUCH better than khulli dhari's, but not that much.

Also not being able to cut your beard doesn't allow you to develop your OWN style, your own uniqueness, something that matches your personality. I also think that maybe people of the opposite sex aren't interested in someone that "Stands out" all the time. A guy with out a full beard can choose when he wants to stand out from the crowd, he can wear a pink shirt, or a big hat, Mr singh with his full flowing khully dhari stands out no matter where he goes.
 
Apr 12, 2007
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I guess it comes down to the fact that it is hard to formulate or understand our relationship with God and nature if you are lucky enough to form a relationship with a God realised human being it becomes about adding value to yourself, then the consideration of what they admire. Everyone is looking to add value to the Rupee=form and in the process are claiming themselves a worthy rate of the value of Sterling a rate that is also pointless when looked at from a humanitarian point how does it add value to any species of nature? Humans are a unknown species that we study daily to proceed with identifying a definition for it, as the resource we consume and are based on are natural resources. Ask a squirrel I guess I say or the extinct dragon. It is saddening that rate's, measures and words are used as some type of authority of formulation on various types of values when ultimately the inner peace of the Human being is the most sacred and is the insatiable. When you love you Marry an individual who they are which is there own unique quality not the "environment". The title of who is marrying Sikh men looks weak in that context it's who is marrying who; example; male and female. Which is plenty worldwide over. Waheguru ji ki khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fathe!
 
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Harry Haller

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I look like a sikh man. I wear a turban and have an un-shaved beard and I can tell you why no one wants to marry a Sikh guy
utter rubbish, I spent right up to my late twenties with a full beard and a turban and it did not hold me back in the romantic stakes, if anything it is a wonderful filtering mechanism, because women that did not want to know me because of my turban were probably not the sort of women that I would wish to romance.

. Its not rocket science, the turban and beard are just unnatractive.
there are lots of women that would disagree, my mum for one.

. Lets for a moment forget god and the so called "Spiritual benefits" of keeping facial hair and a turban. Lets just simply acknowledge we are human. I'm no expert on biology, mating principles or even fashion, but there's something about straight lines and symmetry that appeals to us, having a long bushy, wavy beard just throws this off, yeah sure it's natural but it doesn't appeal to humans. I could be wrong, but that's my theory.
maybe this is just something that appeals to you, after all, it is your theory, I do not subscribe to this, if anything, it is the imperfections that I find attractive in people, when I meet perfect people, perfectly dressed, flawless, it is not something I find attractive, I am a human being, I am wary of those that put so much effort into physical appearance, what are they trying to hide?
Alot of sikh's tie their beard, and while I think this is a somewhat decent compromise at obtaining uniformity and symmetry, it also looks unnatural because it makes that part of the face which has been gelled shiny, and skin is of course not supposed to be shiny, shiny skin looks sweaty and dirty, and to some extent so do gelled beards.
I have never ever clocked this, I look at my dad, and I see a very very handsome Sikh man, when I look at photos of myself years ago, I also see a handsome Sikh man, much more handsome than I look today, much more presence, personality, today I am just a nobody, and I look like a nobody, but then, I looked good!

Don't get me wrong, i think tied/gelled/pressed beards look MUCH better than khulli dhari's, but not that much.
You spend a lot of time on these observations.....

Also not being able to cut your beard doesn't allow you to develop your OWN style, your own uniqueness, something that matches your personality
ok, you clearly hate your hair and beard and want to be like the rest of us, a brief warning, its a great idea when you have hair, but when you get to my age, you end up looking like a bald fat fool. Your looking for justification to go get a hair cut, why not cut out the middle man, stop slating the male Sikh look, and just get on with it.
I also think that maybe people of the opposite sex aren't interested in someone that "Stands out" all the time. A guy with out a full beard can choose when he wants to stand out from the crowd, he can wear a pink shirt, or a big hat, Mr singh with his full flowing khully dhari stands out no matter where he goes.
ok, you clearly also want a girlfriend too, and of all the things that are making this impossible, its your hair, I would get a haircut if I were you, I look at men with turbans to stand for something, to be a tower, a rock, a pinnacle of bravery and understanding, your writing does not indicate this, so stop looking like a hero, and join the rest of us down here in the pit.
 

ActsOfGod

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I look like a sikh man. I wear a turban and have an un-shaved beard and I can tell you why no one wants to marry a Sikh guy. Its not rocket science, the turban and beard are just unnatractive.It's as simple as that.
I recently heard some music by the Australian band "The Beards". You should check out their stuff on youtube, it's hilarious and amazing. These guys are really, really, really into their beards. ALL their songs are about beards. Their music happens to be quite good too. In any case, after listening to two of their albums, I am completely brainwashed and can't look at anyone the same way again. Whenever I look around and see a "clean-shaven" man, I don't see a man at all. I see a little boy, certainly not a man. My mind starts wondering if they have problem growing a beard, or whether they just aren't manly enough to handle one. "With great beard, comes great responsibility", as they say. When I see a man with a full, thick beard, my mind says "Now THERE is a real MAN!" It's gotten to the point where it's a little awkward talking to the beardless wonders. Perhaps the brainwashing has gone too far. But how can I respect a beardless man? I mean, he could at the very least sport a five o'clock shadow....to at least give the ILLUSION of a beard, even if he doesn't have a REAL beard. At least that's somewhat more respectable than having a complete smooth-as-a-babys-bottom face. Otherwise, it's just awkward.

If this is the effect on a male, once can only imagine what's going on in the ladies' minds.

All tongue-in-cheek aside, do you really want your kids thinking this of you:


Lets for a moment forget god and the so called "Spiritual benefits" of keeping facial hair and a turban. Lets just simply acknowledge we are human. I'm no expert on biology, mating principles or even fashion, but there's something about straight lines and symmetry that appeals to us, having a long bushy, wavy beard just throws this off, yeah sure it's natural but it doesn't appeal to humans. I could be wrong, but that's my theory.
I don't say this often, but you are completely and totally wrong. Your BS theory of straight lines and symmetry is some kind of metrosexual brainwashing. Consider this: throughout human history, the male with the beard was considered virile, strong, sexually attractive and a desirable mate and partner for life. I really won't go into all the details here, but you can do your own research and find out. The beard was considered a symbol of fertility and virility. When they wanted to humiliate denigrate a man, they would shave off his beard. I guess eunuchs were beardless, what does that tell you?

Fashions change, but human sexuality does not. Women find a man with a beard more sexually attractive, their perception is that he is stronger, wiser, and more masculine then his clean-shaven counterparts. Men with beards are seen as rugged, wise, potent, better lovers, and the best leaders. Men with beards were the real warriors and women swooned to them.

When it comes down to what moves a woman at her core (forget about all the fashion nonsense), she will fall for a man with a beard because of his presence and vitality. This is true of any woman, not just of a particular culture or society.

As far as you are concerned, though, you will not get the respect of any woman. Because you are willing to divest yourself or your very identity just so you can get into a females panties. A man who is willing to throw away everything that defines him is NOT attractive to females. Don't believe me, go ahead and ask around. Women love a man who takes a stand for what he believes in, who has a direction and purpose in life, who is willing to go against the tide in order to stick to his principles, and who will fight and die to protect them. Alas, that man is not you. You just want to get some booty, which I suppose is ok, you're listening to the Lust within you. (If it's any consolation, you're not alone, there are millions upon millions of sort-of-men just like you)

Alot of sikh's tie their beard, and while I think this is a somewhat decent compromise at obtaining uniformity and symmetry, it also looks unnatural because it makes that part of the face which has been gelled shiny, and skin is of course not supposed to be shiny, shiny skin looks sweaty and dirty, and to some extent so do gelled beards.
Um.....yea


Don't get me wrong, i think tied/gelled/pressed beards look MUCH better than khulli dhari's, but not that much.
Oooooooookay....


Also not being able to cut your beard doesn't allow you to develop your OWN style, your own uniqueness, something that matches your personality. I also think that maybe people of the opposite sex aren't interested in someone that "Stands out" all the time. A guy with out a full beard can choose when he wants to stand out from the crowd, he can wear a pink shirt, or a big hat, Mr singh with his full flowing khully dhari stands out no matter where he goes.
Who's stopping you? Why do you say "not being able to"? What is that nonsense? If you're a real man, you make your own decisions! This is a seriously UNattractive trait, dude. You won't score any points with the ladies on that one.

Well Mr. Pink Shirt Big Hat, I think it's obvious, as Harry ji jhas stated, that what you really want is to get laid, and you perceive that the Sikh articles of faith are standing in your way of the pure orgasmic sexual bliss that is owed to you.

I hope by now you understand that no one is in your way except YOU. It's not the beard (gelled/trimmed/tucked/tied/khulli/shiny/wet/dry/long/frizzled/wavy/etc), it's rather your own self and your lack of growth into manhood.

Real men don't behave like you. They don't pander to the females sniffing around like dogs hoping to get laid. They have a mission in their life. They know what they want to accomplish in their life, and they are busy working to accomplish that mission. They have a sense of purpose. They are strong on their principles and morals. They don't see women as sex objects to gratify their Lust. They respect and adore females, and they cherish and honor their femininity without sullying it. They make meaningful, lasting relationships. They understand their purpose in the world. They overcome their base and animal instincts, and they aspire to the Divine.

All you want is to satisfy your lust.

Shame on you, Mr. Pink Shirt Big Hat.

After it's all said and done, please do come back and let us know how your sexual conquests went. And perhaps later on in life, when you have been humbled enough by life (and life can deliver punches that will bring you to your knees like nothing else), then maybe we can talk about Sikhi. And the precious gifts from Guru Sahib. And the infinite love that Guru has for us, which we, through our own foolishness, are forsaking.

[AoG]

ਹਮ ਅਵਗੁਣਿ ਭਰੇ ਏਕੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਛਾਡਿ ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਈ
I am overflowing with sins and demerits; I have no merits or virtues at all. I abandoned the Ambrosial Nectar, and I drank poison instead.

ਮਾਯਾ ਮੋਹ ਭਰਮ ਪੈ ਭੂਲੇ ਸੁਤ ਦਾਰਾ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ
I am attached to Maya, and deluded by doubt; I have fallen in love with my children and spouse.

ਇਕੁ ਉਤਮ ਪੰਥੁ ਸੁਨਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਤਿਹ ਮਿਲੰਤ ਜਮ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਮਿਟਾਈ
I have heard that the most exalted Path of all is the Sangat, the Guru's Congregation. Joining it, the fear of death is taken away.

ਇਕ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਭਾਟ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੪॥੫੮॥
Keerat the poet offers this one prayer: O Guru Raam Daas, save me! Take me into Your Sanctuary! ||4||58|| http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1406.html
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1406.html
Page 1406 SGGS
 

anon

SPNer
Mar 4, 2013
40
50
I recently heard some music by the Australian band "The Beards". You should check out their stuff on youtube, it's hilarious and amazing. These guys are really, really, really into their beards. ALL their songs are about beards. Their music happens to be quite good too. In any case, after listening to two of their albums, I am completely brainwashed and can't look at anyone the same way again. Whenever I look around and see a "clean-shaven" man, I don't see a man at all. I see a little boy, certainly not a man. My mind starts wondering if they have problem growing a beard, or whether they just aren't manly enough to handle one. "With great beard, comes great responsibility", as they say. When I see a man with a full, thick beard, my mind says "Now THERE is a real MAN!" It's gotten to the point where it's a little awkward talking to the beardless wonders. Perhaps the brainwashing has gone too far. But how can I respect a beardless man? I mean, he could at the very least sport a five o'clock shadow....to at least give the ILLUSION of a beard, even if he doesn't have a REAL beard. At least that's somewhat more respectable than having a complete smooth-as-a-babys-bottom face. Otherwise, it's just awkward.

If this is the effect on a male, once can only imagine what's going on in the ladies' minds.

All tongue-in-cheek aside, do you really want your kids thinking this of you:


So you start off by saying that having a beard can make someone look manly and better, and that not having a beard means that someone isn’t a real man. You then went on to say that you were just joking, but then after you said that you were joking you posted a video which restates your original position, being beardless is less manly. So I can only go onto assume that by the amount you repeat this you believe this to be true.

You could be joking, but I’m going to just assume you are being serious, and If you are being serious then I can tell you that the definition of a “real man” has nothing to do with having a beard. When you call someone a “man” you are referring to their sex or their gender. In terms of sex the definition of a male is CLEARLY defined, and I can tell you for a fact my sex is male. I have the DNA to prove it.

Other people like to define a concept separate to sex called gender. To put it simply Men act certain ways and women act other ways. Gender has nothing to do with appearance or DNA; it should has more to do with behavior. The video you posted is clearly a joke but let’s examine some of the “manly” things they do in it: fix cars, chop wood, eat chicken, lift weights and kill animals. All of these “Manly” activities can be done without a beard. I identify as a male and while I am a bit on the quiet side and don’t like to get rough and rowdy I feel quite manly already, I don’t need a beard to tell me otherwise.

Based on the above post you seem to judge people based on how they look. Here’s what you said about people who don’t have beards: “they just aren't manly enough to handle one”, this would be a judgement of someone’s behavious and personality based on their appearance (questioning their "manliness"). You also say “I see a little boy, certainly not a man” when talking about beardless males; this would suggest you have less respect for beardless people based on how the look, calling a grown male a boy is considered insulting and demeaning.

To make judgements about people, the way you have done is to judge someone because of their looks. Now I don’t want you to get the wrong idea, judging people based on their looks is not something I’m entirely against, I personally would not judge someone’s personality based on their appearance, but I do judge other things based on looks, for example physical attraction is something important to me when looking for a life partner, I’m telling you this because I just wanted to make it clear that I don’t think making judgements based on the way people look makes you a bad person.

Some people hold the opposite view, some people think it’s wrong to hold judgements about people on the way they look, and while I would disagree with them I do respect their position, as long as they are consistent. A poster above called findingmyway said this in a post:

“Surely a woman who judges on beard/turban isn’t worth the effort”

I would disagree with her; however I’d like to explore this further. If findingmyway thinks that judging people for having beards is wrong, she must also think that judging people for not having beards is also wrong. The point is that “Admin Singh” liked her post, “Admin Singh” ALSO liked your post, where you clearly are judging people for not having beards. I'm not trying to have a dig at admin singh, but I really feel like in the sikh community there are a lot of men who on the one hand will say things like “Girls should judge me for how Iook”, while also holding the view that “Having a beard makes me sexy/manly”, I find this contradiction in views to be annoying.

Furthermore I find the “Having a beard makes me sexy/manly/strong/look like a lion” to make people sound insecure about the way they look, because they KNOW having a beard makes them less attractive to girls, this last point is entirely my own speculation, but it's honestly how I feel.

I don't say this often, but you are completely and totally wrong. Your BS theory of straight lines and symmetry is some kind of metrosexual brainwashing.


Attractiveness is subjective, and I think its reasonable to assume people like straight lines, symmetry, smooth surfaces and order, I know this because I am one of those people. Modern gadgets like ipods and iphones look clean, solid and smooth. Big business depends on the look of things, why do they use simple smooth designs. There has to be something to it, but again it’s subjective… after all it must be true that some ladies actually prefer beards. When I made my original post (and perhaps I should have made this more clear) I was referring to the vast majority of people, as opposed to everyone, in my view the vast majority of people prefer trimmed beards, or clean shaven faces, later on in this post you would tell me that I am wrong about this but for now I want to address something else…”metrosexual brainwashing”

You didn’t explain what you meant by this “metrosexual brainwashing”, but I’m assuming what you are suggesting is that beardless men are perceived as more attractive because they are being pushed by the media/fashion industry. I wanted to explore this “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy” further so let’s just for the moment assume that it’s true. If there is a “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy” then the conspiracy is clearly trying to present clean shaven men as being the most attractive. I did a quick google image of “Male Model”

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=male+model&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=935&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuvczxtbnKAhVH0RQKHbKdBrsQ_AUIBigB

It would seem that the “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy” has a strong bias towards the clean shaved male, NOT men with stubble. This is an important distinction which I’ll get to later, and granted there are a few men in the pictures with trimmed stubble beards, but for the most part its smooth skinned clean shaven men.

The reason why I find the “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy” hard to accept is because I can’t think of a group of people who would want to push the clean shaven male as perfect. In other words, who are the “metrosexual brainwashing conspirators”…

people allergic to beards? No they don’t exist

People with a vendetta against the sikh identity? Maybe but why would these people control the media.

People who are jealous of bearded men? Well if they were jealous of bearded men why wouldn’t they just grow their own beards.

The shaving industry? Well… maybe but I believe that the shaving industry was born from a demand, rather than the industry generating a demand.

It seems ridiculous to me that there is a “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy” that intentionally advocates shaving because I can’t think of why they would exist.

I don’t think the fact that most male movie stars/childhood heroes/athletes are clean shaven is because of a conspiracy against beards, I think the clean shaven role-models are the majority BECAUSE women find that look more attractive.

But let’s still let’s pretend you are correct and that there is a “metrosexual brainwashing conspiracy”. It would seem that the conspiracy has failed because clean shaven men ARE NOT considered most attractive by women, rather stubbly men are:

https://vwo.com/blog/ab-test-proves-women-find-bearded-men-attractive/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonha-revesencio/science-explains-why-a-beard-makes-you-look-hotter_b_6618142.html

these article summarises a recent study which say that women perceive HEAVY STUBBLE to be more attractive (while a full beard make a man look more healthy), heavy stubble can only be achieved by shaving.

Just as a side note when researching bearded male models, most of them have clearly taken scizzors to their face, even singh street style.

Consider this: throughout human history, the male with the beard was considered virile, strong, sexually attractive and a desirable mate and partner for life.

You raise an interesting point when you talk about history. I don’t think we can use history to reach conclusions about modern day life, I think we can make observations that when combined with further analysis can lead to conclusions. So let’s assume you are right about history and let’s make the observation that bearded men were considered more sexually attractive and desirable historically.

http://mic.com/articles/114488/science-explains-why-guys-with-beards-and-tattoos-have-a-dating-edge#.LNVzw9BVW

this article explains that it is not necessarily the beard which enhances sexual attraction and desirability, but rather its standing out from the crowd. This can be achieved with tattoos, bright clothing accessories etc.

Furthermore I don’t think you can use the perceived sexual attraction and desirability of bearded men in history to suggest that humans are wired to find beards appealing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-warn-weve-hit-peak-beard-the-more-people-grow-facial-hair-the-less-attractive-it-is-9264020.html

this article suggests that scientific studies have shown perceived beard attractiveness is something which is CYCLICAL. Just because a beard was considered attractive in medieval India does not mean its necessarily attractive today, because of the cyclical nature of fashions.

When they wanted to humiliate denigrate a man, they would shave off his beard.

I don’t see why this is important, attitudes and perceptions change. Back in those days homeless people probably didn’t have beards, now they do.

I guess eunuchs were beardless, what does that tell you?


It tells me that testosterone has an effect on hairgrowth.

I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. Euneuch’s were not sexually active, but that wasn’t because of their lack of beard, it was because they were castrated.

Fashions change, but human sexuality does not.

I don’t understand what you mean by this so again I’m going to have to make some assumptions here. “Sexuality does not change” is what you said, so let’s roll with that.

When you say sexuality does not change do you mean that Miss A and Miss B have the same sexuality, and all humans have the same sexuality. That cant be true, because Miss A may be heterosexual, and Miss B may be Bisexual, and sexuality isn’t a choice, unless you think non-heterosexuality is a choice?

Maybe when you say sexuality doesn’t change you mean that when person A was born their sexuality remains the same regardless of the time they live in, but if that;s the case then this has no impact on person B’s sexuality. Sexuality not varying for an individual does not mean that sexuality does not vary between different individuals.

So all in all I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Women find a man with a beard more sexually attractive, their perception is that he is stronger, wiser, and more masculine then his clean-shaven counterparts. Men with beards are seen as rugged, wise, potent, better lovers, and the best leaders. Men with beards were the real warriors and women swooned to them.


Can you tell me where these pereptions are described? I honestly only did quick research when finding articles but the social attitudes towards beards seem to suggest something different

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/attraction-evolved/201510/is-there-problem-bearded-men

you talk about perception, but recent study shows that men with beards are perceived to be more sexist.

When it comes down to what moves a woman at her core (forget about all the fashion nonsense), she will fall for a man with a beard because of his presence and vitality. This is true of any woman, not just of a particular culture or society.

Citation please im trying to find the articles that demonstrate that the majority of women prefer the sardar style beard. I can’t even find articles that suggest that sexual attraction towards specific features is something built into our biology

As far as you are concerned, though, you will not get the respect of any woman.

I never said I couldn’t get the respect of any women, I didn’t say this to you. I don’t see how based on my post you can make sweeping conclusions about my own thoughts and attitudes. But I’ll tell you them anyway, yes I think I can get the respect of a woman. Yes I have been talking about looks a lot, but when you talk about respect you are talking about something else entirely. I haven’t achieved much yet in my life, but I have achieved some things, you wouldn’t know about them because you don’t know who I am, but in the past men and women have respected me, men and women have belittled me, men and women have liked me and men and women have hated me. Things in this world aren’t black and white.

I think here is another good place to make another point, I don’t think physical attraction is the sole determinant of being able to find a partner, inlife things are multifactorial. I think physical attraction is a role, but I don’t think it always comes down to girls choosing between

1) The nice ugly guy
2) The nasty attractive guy

I've never bee in a relationship but I suspect things are more complicated than that. I think being unattractive puts you at a disadvantage yes, but I don’t think it makes you entirely undatabale.

Because you are willing to divest yourself or your very identity just so you can get into a females panties.

This is the point when you attempt to personally insult me and get vulgar. Look I really don’t care what you think about me, but I don’t understand how you can make such sweeping statements about my character based on one post you have read, if you knew anything about me, then you would know that I am not a sikh, I am a, atheist who does not which to identify to a particular religion. My beard is NOT my identity, it is an article of faith to a religion I don’t believe in yet I am forced to practice,

Let’s say that I did want to “Get into female panties”, what’s wrong with that? Whats actually wrong with wanting to have sex? As long as its consented and safe I don’t see anything wrong with it, but the truth is, no I don’t want to shave my beard “to get into a females panties”. See that guy at the club/bar talking to the girls, trying to feel them and trying to get them drunk? That’s not me, that’s never been me. Don’t believe me if you don’t want to, I don’t care, but baseless statements are irrelevant in this discussion.

I want to shave my beard because I don’t like it, simple as that. The man in the mirror doesn’t look like the man inside.

A man who is willing to throw away everything that defines him is NOT attractive to females.

A man who is willing to adapt his physical appearance to female preference IS physically attractive to females those females. If a girl says she likes big arms then working out ang getting bigger arms would make her like you more...

Don't believe me, go ahead and ask around. Women love a man who takes a stand for what he believes in, who has a direction and purpose in life, who is willing to go against the tide in order to stick to his principles, and who will fight and die to protect them. Alas, that man is not you.

The term principles is used incorrectly a lot. I have principles, they are just different to yours, if my principles are to brush my teeth before every meal, and your are to brush your teeth after every meal then we can both stick to our own principles and still disagree, just because our principles are different does not mean that I don’t stick to my principles. Once again you are judging me based on absolutely nothing. You don’t know anything about my principles, you don’t know about my views on abortion, gay marriage, charity, etc etc. why are you making judgement about my adherence to my principles when you don’t know them?

And what about my purpose in life? You don’t know about my job, you don’t know about my family, you don’t know about my beliefs, how can you possibly make a judgement about what I want to achieve in life.

You just want to get some booty

This isn’t true, but let’s say you are right, lets say I just want to shave my beard just for the women. You may say “You just want some booty” others will say “you want to make changes to attract members of the opposite sex”. One sounds more sinister sleazy and evil and paints a picture of a man who wants to have sex day and night with girls from all over the world, the other paints a picture of a lonely man who just wants someone in his life. I guess they’re both pathetic in their own way, but whatever. I'm not some kind of sleaze, stop suggesting I am one.

Who's stopping you?

My family and my parents

Why do you say "not being able to"? What is that nonsense?

I have a choice to make. I can shave my beard and live the life that I want, and look the way I want, but if I do I will seriously crush my parents, who just wanted a good sikh son. So instead I maintain the pretense of being a sikh, I do paath and read sikh history so that one day if ever I do decide to leave I can at the very least indicate to my parents that my decision was informed, and who knows, maybe gurbani and the sakhis will convert me to Sikhism. I doubt it will, gurbani is boring and I find the history of the world much more interesting than the events that took place 400 years ago in a small corner of india.

If you're a real man, you make your own decisions! This is a seriously UNattractive trait, dude. You won't score any points with the ladies on that one.

I do make my decisions I decided I’d pretend to be someone i'm not to keep others happy, that’s my decision.

Well Mr. Pink Shirt Big Hat, I think it's obvious, as Harry ji jhas stated, that what you really want is to get laid, and you perceive that the Sikh articles of faith are standing in your way of the pure orgasmic sexual bliss that is owed to you.

Here we go again…

The topic was about marriage, you would expect that in a topic about marriage people would talk about the extent to which physical attractiveness contributes to success in finding a partner. Its not surprising that I made a point about this, I don’t talk about this stuff daily, I don’t know who you think I am but I don’t watch porn all day and I don’t constantly talk about sex, the points I raised were appropriate given the discussion. Debate them if you wish but don’t make assumptions about me because I was talking about physical attractiveness, something which is ENTIRELY relevant to this topic

I hope by now you understand that no one is in your way except YOU. It's not the beard (gelled/trimmed/tucked/tied/khulli/shiny/wet/dry/long/frizzled/wavy/etc), it's rather your own self and your lack of growth into manhood.

Like I said above I believe that physical attraction is one of the many things people take into account when choosing a partner, and I don’t think that’s wrong, when a woman chooses a man she has a lot to choose from, there are plenty of nice guys out there, so she needs to have other things, other factors to base her decision on.

Real men don't behave like you.

You don’t know how I behave

They don't pander to the females sniffing around like dogs hoping to get laid.

I don’t do this

They have a mission in their life.

I have a mission in my life. Seriously stop making such nonsensical baseless accusations

They know what they want to accomplish in their life, and they are busy working to accomplish that mission.

Yep, replying to everything you have written is getting in the way of that at the moment

They have a sense of purpose. They are strong on their principles and morals. They don't see women as sex objects to gratify their Lust. They respect and adore females, and they cherish and honor their femininity without sullying it.

I have many female friends, I have sisters, I have a mother. I cherish them, stop saying I don’t. Wanting to have a female partner has no impact on this. Wanting to change my appearance does not mean I’m a sleazebag that wants sex.

Infact if i wanted to have sex with other girls it wouldn't sully anyone's honor or femininity. I don't want to go around sleeping with other girls... but if i did it wouldn't sully their femininity. Do you think there is something dishonourable bout premarital sex?

They make meaningful, lasting relationships. They understand their purpose in the world. They overcome their base and animal instincts, and they aspire to the Divine.

I guess that’s where you and I differ. I don’t believe in the divine. I don’t keep my beard just because some leader told me to 300 years ago.

All you want is to satisfy your lust.


Not true

Shame on you, Mr. Pink Shirt Big Hat.

Okay.


After it's all said and done, please do come back and let us know how your sexual conquests went. And perhaps later on in life, when you have been humbled enough by life (and life can deliver punches that will bring you to your knees like nothing else), then maybe we can talk about Sikhi. And the precious gifts from Guru Sahib. And the infinite love that Guru has for us, which we, through our own foolishness, are forsaking.

I haven't reieved any gifts from any gurus, the gurus are dead they dont have infinite love if they died.

[AoG]

ਹਮਅਵਗੁਣਿਭਰੇਏਕੁਗੁਣੁਨਾਹੀਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁਛਾਡਿਬਿਖੈਬਿਖੁਖਾਈ
I am overflowing with sins and demerits; I have no merits or virtues at all. I abandoned the Ambrosial Nectar, and I drank poison instead.


“My dear Watson," said [Sherlock Holmes], "I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one's self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one's own powers.”

You have virtues and merits I’m sure of it. You said that you had principles you stick to, and you said that you had a purpose in life. You have merits, there is no need to this hyperbole of overstating your short comings. Such over the top statements of innadequecy remind me of how early Christians used to punish themselves in order to be closer to god.


ਮਾਯਾਮੋਹਭਰਮਪੈਭੂਲੇਸੁਤਦਾਰਾਸਿਉਪ੍ਰੀਤਿਲਗਾਈ
I am attached to Maya, and deluded by doubt; I have fallen in love with my children and spouse.


I would rather love my children and spouse than an invisible man I can’t see, a book that wont talk to me and 10 guys that are long dead. Love for one’s family keeps the world turning. If everyone abandoned their family for god then civilisation would end

ਇਕੁਉਤਮਪੰਥੁਸੁਨਿਓਗੁਰਸੰਗਤਿਤਿਹਮਿਲੰਤਜਮਤ੍ਰਾਸਮਿਟਾਈ
I have heard that the most exalted Path of all is the Sangat, the Guru's Congregation. Joining it, the fear of death is taken away.


Where is the path of the sangat? I'm reading gurbani, but i'm just focusing on japji. Is there a map and a compass on the next page?

What if I thought I found the sangat but it turns out they aret the real sangat? Would god punish me? Are there any other advantages other than not fearing deatht he sangat can bring?

I can stop fearing death byjust drinking bleach… why not? The previous line of gurbani practically comdemned loving your family, theres nothing else, I might aswell just drink bleach.

I have so many questions for this so called Guru but it wont talk back to me... because it's just a book. I wish there was a human guru that i could talk to, that we could question.

ਇਕਅਰਦਾਸਿਭਾਟਕੀਰਤਿਕੀਗੁਰਰਾਮਦਾਸਰਾਖਹੁਸਰਣਾਈ॥੪॥੫੮॥
Keerat the poet offers this one prayer: O Guru Raam Daas, save me! Take me into Your Sanctuary! ||4||58||


Anonji, please keep red for admin purposes, rather than copy and paste, if you hover over an outlined text, you will see the reply tab, just click that and it will quote the text which looks neater. I have edited two comments which I felt were a bit close to the mark, but its a good post, lots of good questions.
 
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Featured Shabad

By the 5th Guru Arjan Dev, the shabad is on Ang 616 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa.

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Soraṯẖ mėhlā 5.
Sorat'h, Fifth...

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