What Is Wrong With Halal Now?

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The history and idea of us rejecting halal was a symbolic gesture against the forced acceptance of Islamlic principles or faith.

When Punjab is now ruled by a Hindu Government who are we rebelling against when the rulers are vegetarian?

How can it symbolise anything now , no one is being coerced into eating it and we are not ruled by the Mughals.

It's like we are trying to say "We the Sikhs don't accept this" when no one is even saying you must accept this atleast in India?

The telos or the essential purpose is what is important,when the situation we are in has changed completely, what are we standing up against now?

 

[Ishna]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

I don't think those foods I mentioned are offered to a deity. They are blessed often in the name of a god but then the celebrants eat them. I would put deg and langar in the same category, blessed food. Or at least food for purpose, proclaimed as part of a ceremony.

I understand the basis of Sikh practices with food and their relation to Islam and Hinduism specifically, Im just trying to take the ideas which should be universal and apply them to other earthly situations which Sikhi was not influenced by, initially.

 

[Ishna]

Some of Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's posts deal with forced halal in modern times, particularly Malaysia.

Why partake of another religions customs, anyway?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Sister Ji
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.
Tao te Ching

We have made our rejection into a ritual,because no one can deny the purpose and context is everything.(By the way ,your shooting Kangaroos thread was my inspiration ),otherwise I never really care what I put in my stomach, as long as I did not steal it ofcourse!
I'm sure religion is not in what you eat if you live near the sea you might eat more fish if you live in a desert you probably don't eat tuna.
I once knew someone who had been given a bag instead of a stomach ,what would you say is the correct food for him?When did our Guru say don't eat Halal?I thought he said there were no Muslims or Hindu's!
I see only one Religion in the world as I see only one God ,so Religion must be like him, the one truth.
Otherwise what is he going to do with all those 'Muslims' and not to mention those 'Christians'?

 

[Randip Singh]

The history and idea of us rejecting halal was a symbolic gesture against the forced acceptance of Islamlic principles or faith.

When Punjab is now ruled by a Hindu Government who are we rebelling against when the rulers are vegetarian?

How can it symbolise anything now , no one is being coerced into eating it and we are not ruled by the Mughals.

It's like we are trying to say "We the Sikhs don't accept this" when no one is even saying you must accept this atleast in India?

The telos or the essential purpose is what is important,when the situation we are in has changed completely, what are we standing up against now?

The boycott of the Mughals was one reason given.

The actual reason is to do with an abhorrence of ritual sacrifice and an unnecessary purifaction of meat.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

Ishna Ji

When you know what hunger feels like,you will eat first and ask questions later.Most of us if left hungry for ten days will eat Halal or even each other!

The rejection of Halal historically was a way of showing the objection to the forced conversion that was taking place. It had a great purpose then but no one is forcing your will now ,so what does it matter either way.

Sinner ji, That is not actually correct.

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.
Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press



And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.
Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Randip Ji

I thought ritual sacrifice was killing ,as an offering to the Gods,today Halal is known more as a food slaughter method ,albeit it a less humane one?

No contention meant, I'm hardly an expert ,I just looked at the origin to find the the precept or reasoning for the convention or it's adoption.

If we reject it today it must be for the right reasons ,if we reject it for the wrong reasons such as showing the muslims that we don't comply when there is no demand on us in the West and India atleast.The rejection itself becomes ritualistic and empty ,although I feel it should be rejected on humane grounds .

 

[Ishna]

Ji, this looks pretty good: http://www.themuslimwoman.com/hertongue/HalalWay.htm

it's not just the method of slaughter but the fact the animal is killed with the bismillah said over it. That is my understanding.

This one has better verses: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Isna Ji

Ask the man on the street today what it is and they will say it is a method of slaughter.I doubt anyone will see it as a ritual offering to the Gods. I don't mean to argue with bhena,I just want to get to the truth of the matter.The way to God is not through diet, it is through Truth only, nothing else.When you want to make a car go faster, you strip out all the extra stuff , just want to find the universal truth of the matter and not get distracted or weighed down by diet.In the end it does not even matter?

 

[spnadmin]

Halal slaughter is accompanied by the exclamation Alah Akhbar! This is also called out and has been for centuries in war, when muslims slayed their enemies. It is used during executions, such as stonings.

The use of it in halal slaughter calls forth remembrance of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham in the Jewish Testament...To prove his faith Abraham was ordered by "God" to sacrifice his son. That is where the ritual sacrifice comes in. Muslims consider Abraham one of their prophets.

Today the problem redoubles because in some countries Halal is being used exclusively in restaurants and schools to appease muslim minorities... and non muslims do not have a similar choice. Obviously is expensive to accommodate everyone, yet special consideration is given for halal. Neither observant Jews nor baptized Sikhs are permitted Halal. This causes problems

NOTE: NO SUCH EXCLAMATION ACCOMPANIES KOSHER SLAUGHER AND JEWS DO NOT CONSIDER KOSHER SLAUGHTER EITHER RITUAL OR CONNECTED TO THE SACRIFICE OF ABRAHAM.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.
Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

IJ Singh is wrong about kosher slaughter. I really do wish Sikhs would bone up on this point. Maybe some of my Jewish friends need to sign up and correct this wrong notion. There is no prayer involved in the Kosher slaughter of meat. There is no intention to "enoble" the flesh. Kosher is part of Jewish sanitary law. That only.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Admin
You are the entity which regulates my madness and for that I am grateful, but did not the obedient Abraham get stopped from actually sacrificing him, so we could see Abraham as the lesson against sacrifice rather than promoting it?

Just a theory.

 

[spnadmin]

Yes he was stopped. Abraham was stopped after "God" was satisfied with Abraham's depth of faith and obedience. But that does not nullify the point that the Abrahamic God of Jews, Muslims and Christians "tests" humans. The nature of the test is observed in both testaments to evolve over time. Nonetheless this "God" is a feisty, testy and often implacable personality, even offering his "only begotten son" as sacrifice to save humanity in fulfillment of prophesy. None of this...sacrifices, tests of faith, deities with issues, providence dependent on obedience, etc. is consistent with Sikhi.

 

[Randip Singh]

Dear Randip Ji

I thought ritual sacrifice was killing ,as an offering to the Gods,today Halal is known more as a food slaughter method ,albeit it a less humane one?

No contention meant, I'm hardly an expert ,I just looked at the origin to find the the precept or reasoning for the convention or it's adoption.

If we reject it today it must be for the right reasons ,if we reject it for the wrong reasons such as showing the muslims that we don't comply when there is no demand on us in the West and India atleast.The rejection itself becomes ritualistic and empty ,although I feel it should be rejected on humane grounds .

The word Halal means pure. There is your clue my friend.

They are basically saying such and such is now pure.

Sikh Guru's thought no point to this.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

IJ Singh is wrong about kosher slaughter. I really do wish Sikhs would bone up on this point. Maybe some of my Jewish friends need to sign up and correct this wrong notion.

I see your point, but Does not Kosher mean pure, as does Halal?:interestedsingh:

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

Randip Ji

I don't know the history only that is was a gesture against Mughal Raaj if there was a specific guideline on slaughter back then I don't know why Hindu's would slaughter anything any way ,
I started the other thread to ask is that gesture still relevant today ,whatever the detail behind our rejection, it still remains a gesture of defiance against the imposition of muslim values on others.If we have free will today it just seems a bit outdated now.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Query about Jhatka Meat by Shooting in Head

This word "pure" has also been a sticking point.

Halal involves invoking "Allah Akhbar" and Kosher does not. Halal is reliving the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, to demonstrate faith in "God". Kosher does not. No connection at all is made of kosher to the sacrifice of Abraham by Jews.

To understand kosher slaughter, put it into the bigger framework of dietary laws. Eating shellfish is also forbidden for the same reason: sanitation. No spirituality involved. So if an observant Jew avoids shellfish it is hard to see how any ritual is involved. He simply does not eat it. Likewise, the same observant Jew will only eat kosher meat, for the same reason.

Kosher is a way to achieve a level of "cleanliness" by way of a procedure .... a procedure which is traditional, but is not ritual in the eyes of Jews. The origins of Kosher slaughter hark back to ancient times, when it was viewed as a way to achieve a "sanitary" diet. No one knew about bacteria in those days. Kosher slaughter is part of a broader set of dietary laws all geared the same way, for cleanliness, not spirituality. Granted we who are not Jewish may see it as overly obsessive and even overly bound up in tradition.


Halal also means lawful. Beyond that, the procedure involves an unmistakable reference to "ritual" and "sacrifice" which never comes up during kosher slaughter. With halal, the entire matter of crying Allah Akhbar with the slaughter of each animal is directly tied to the sacrifice of Abraham in the old Testament, as if Alah himself purifies the meat for his obedient faithful.

 

[spnadmin]

Sorry, but I disagree.

The word Halal means pure. There is your clue my friend.

Halal actually means "lawful."

"Pure" is not a clue but a miscue. There are two different notions of "pure" at work in Halal and Kosher.

To understand kosher slaughter, put it into the bigger framework of dietary laws. Eating shellfish is also forbidden for the same reason: sanitation. No spirituality involved. So if an observant Jew avoids shellfish it is hard to see how any ritual is involved. He simply does not eat it....

Kosher is a way to achieve a level of "cleanliness" by way of a procedure .... a procedure which is traditional, but is not ritual in the eyes of Jews. The origins of Kosher slaughter hark back to ancient times, when it was viewed as a way to achieve a "sanitary" diet. ...Kosher slaughter is part of a broader set of dietary laws all geared the same way, for cleanliness, not spirituality.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...out-jhatka-meat-shooting-head.html#post152143

 

[Annie]

Dear Admin
You are the entity which regulates my madness and for that I am grateful, but did not the obedient Abraham get stopped from actually sacrificing him, so we could see Abraham as the lesson against sacrifice rather than promoting it?

Just a theory.

Mind if I answer this? Abraham's faith was indeed tested. This was not, however, a lesson against sacrifice. Immediately after Abraham was stopped from killing his son, he saw a ram tangled up in a bush or tree, supposedly placed there by God to be used as a sacrifice instead of the son. Later in the Bible/Torah there continues to be a lot of mention of sacrifice, with directions supposedly from God as to what, how much, why, by whom etc... It seems God wanted sacrifices as atonement for all sorts of things, even accidental "sins."

By the way, just as Sikhs have a prohibition against eating Halal, observant Jews have a prohibition against non-kosher processed grape products such as wine and juice. They do not want to accidentally drink any wine or grape juice that is from the same batch as wine used in other religions' religious rituals.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Annie Ji

Damn I forgot about the ram ,thanks for correcting me,I still feel the rejection by Sikhs was a symbolic gesture in rejection of the imposition of the ruling classes set of values on the ruled.The oppresion was our enemy, not Halal perhaps, but just a theory of course!