BoleSoNihaalSSA
SPNer
- May 6, 2006
- 5
- 0
Does Sikhism believe in Adam and Eve story? If not then are Islam and Christianity baseless?
What Does Sikhism Say About Adam And Eve?
BoleSoNihaalSSA said:
Go to any good natural history museum and see dinosaur skeletons bigger than double decker buses and have a think about the Adam and Eve story. I think Adam is briefy mentioned as Baba Adam in one bani but in the same way Indra, Vishnu etc. etc. are.
I am writing as an Sikh philosopher having been brought up in a Sikh enviornment at home . Wether this is enough to label it as a Sikh philosophy point of view I am not sure of it.
As a Sikh philosphers I feel that this is an interesting hypotheses but needs to be still backed up by our todays line of thinking the so called scientific evidence.
There is a possibility that this is a corollary of our sensory perception where all living systems and any things associated with
classically divided into three cycles :-
birth
growth
death
May be it has some thing to do with these words.
I feel that the word Timelessness describes life the best
" It was always there , it is there , and it shall always be there "
ie summed up as equating GOD and its creations with timelessness the so called " akhalpurkh "
So live life to its fullest form you shall never die in a certian sense.
An interesting link is
http://www.icreatereality.comhttp://www.rediffmail.com/cgi-bin/red.cgi?red=http://www.icreatereality.com
love to all and every living species and the still to be born in future .
hps62 :star: 
As a Sikh philosphers I feel that this is an interesting hypotheses but needs to be still backed up by our todays line of thinking the so called scientific evidence.
There is a possibility that this is a corollary of our sensory perception where all living systems and any things associated with
classically divided into three cycles :-
birth
growth
death
May be it has some thing to do with these words.
I feel that the word Timelessness describes life the best
" It was always there , it is there , and it shall always be there "
ie summed up as equating GOD and its creations with timelessness the so called " akhalpurkh "
So live life to its fullest form you shall never die in a certian sense.
An interesting link is
http://www.icreatereality.comhttp://www.rediffmail.com/cgi-bin/red.cgi?red=http://www.icreatereality.com
love to all and every living species and the still to be born in future .
hps62
:star: 
jonnyBravoWarm
SPNer
All Sikhism has to say is what the Scientist's have to say today...... :wink:
There was no Adam and eve and no apple that made them fall to earth.
"Ek noor te sab jag upjeya"
There was no Adam and eve and no apple that made them fall to earth.
"Ek noor te sab jag upjeya"
vijaydeep Singh
SPNer
Gurfateh
In one verse term Father Adem or Baba Adam does emrges.
Ang(page/Part) 1161 Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
सतरि सैइ सलार है जा के ॥
satar sai-ay salaar hai jaa kay.
He has 7,000 commanders,
ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥
सवा लाखु पैकाबर ता के ॥
savaa laakh paikaabar taa kay.
and hundreds of thousands of prophets;
ਸੇਖ ਜੁ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਸੀ ॥
सेख जु कहीअहि कोटि अठासी ॥
saykh jo kahee-ahi kot athaasee.
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs,
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1||
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1||
ਮੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਜਰਾਵੈ ॥
मो गरीब की को गुजरावै ॥
mo gareeb kee ko gujraavai.
I am meek and poor - what chance do I have of being heard there?
ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
majlas door mahal ko paavai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause||
ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥
तेतीस करोड़ी है खेल खाना ॥
taytees karorhee hai khayl khaanaa.
He has 33,000,000 play-houses.
ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥
चउरासी लख फिरै दिवानां ॥
cha-uraasee lakh firai divaanaaN.
His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million incarnations.
ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥
बाबा आदम कउ किछु नदरि दिखाई ॥
baabaa aadam ka-o kichh nadar dikhaa-ee.
He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,
ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
उनि भी भिसति घनेरी पाई ॥२॥
un bhee bhisat ghanayree paa-ee. ||2||
who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2||
ਦਿਲ ਖਲਹਲੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜਰਦ ਰੂ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
दिल खलहलु जा कै जरद रू बानी ॥
dil khalhal jaa kai jarad roo baanee.
Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed.
ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥
छोडि कतेब करै सैतानी ॥
chhod katayb karai saitaanee.
They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil.
ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ ॥
दुनीआ दोसु रोसु है लोई ॥
dunee-aa dos ros hai lo-ee.
One who blames the world, and is angry with people,
ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
अपना कीआ पावै सोई ॥३॥
apnaa kee-aa paavai so-ee. ||3||
shall receive the fruits of his own actions. ||3||
ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
तुम दाते हम सदा भिखारी ॥
tum daatay ham sadaa bhikhaaree.
You are the Great Giver, O Lord; I am forever a beggar at Your Door.
ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥
देउ जबाबु होइ बजगारी ॥
day-o jabaab ho-ay bajgaaree.
If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner.
ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥
दासु कबीरु तेरी पनह समानां ॥
daas kabeer tayree panah samaanaaN.
Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter.
ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥
भिसतु नजीकि राखु रहमाना ॥४॥७॥१५॥
bhisat najeek raakh rehmaanaa. ||4||7||15||
Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God - that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15||
To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.
In one verse term Father Adem or Baba Adam does emrges.
Ang(page/Part) 1161 Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
सतरि सैइ सलार है जा के ॥
satar sai-ay salaar hai jaa kay.
He has 7,000 commanders,
ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥
सवा लाखु पैकाबर ता के ॥
savaa laakh paikaabar taa kay.
and hundreds of thousands of prophets;
ਸੇਖ ਜੁ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਸੀ ॥
सेख जु कहीअहि कोटि अठासी ॥
saykh jo kahee-ahi kot athaasee.
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs,
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1||
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1||
ਮੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਜਰਾਵੈ ॥
मो गरीब की को गुजरावै ॥
mo gareeb kee ko gujraavai.
I am meek and poor - what chance do I have of being heard there?
ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
majlas door mahal ko paavai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause||
ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥
तेतीस करोड़ी है खेल खाना ॥
taytees karorhee hai khayl khaanaa.
He has 33,000,000 play-houses.
ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥
चउरासी लख फिरै दिवानां ॥
cha-uraasee lakh firai divaanaaN.
His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million incarnations.
ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥
बाबा आदम कउ किछु नदरि दिखाई ॥
baabaa aadam ka-o kichh nadar dikhaa-ee.
He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,
ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
उनि भी भिसति घनेरी पाई ॥२॥
un bhee bhisat ghanayree paa-ee. ||2||
who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2||
ਦਿਲ ਖਲਹਲੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜਰਦ ਰੂ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
दिल खलहलु जा कै जरद रू बानी ॥
dil khalhal jaa kai jarad roo baanee.
Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed.
ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥
छोडि कतेब करै सैतानी ॥
chhod katayb karai saitaanee.
They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil.
ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ ॥
दुनीआ दोसु रोसु है लोई ॥
dunee-aa dos ros hai lo-ee.
One who blames the world, and is angry with people,
ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
अपना कीआ पावै सोई ॥३॥
apnaa kee-aa paavai so-ee. ||3||
shall receive the fruits of his own actions. ||3||
ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
तुम दाते हम सदा भिखारी ॥
tum daatay ham sadaa bhikhaaree.
You are the Great Giver, O Lord; I am forever a beggar at Your Door.
ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥
देउ जबाबु होइ बजगारी ॥
day-o jabaab ho-ay bajgaaree.
If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner.
ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥
दासु कबीरु तेरी पनह समानां ॥
daas kabeer tayree panah samaanaaN.
Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter.
ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥
भिसतु नजीकि राखु रहमाना ॥४॥७॥१५॥
bhisat najeek raakh rehmaanaa. ||4||7||15||
Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God - that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15||
To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.
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Saheb Singh
SPNer
- Dec 8, 2004
- 6
- 0
- 48
I would like to add more that ADAM OR EVE is somethign related to SAMAJ.
I mean since SAMAJ-SURT actualy took place by nature thru a long time period after existance of Universe is actualy is said to be ADAM - man or woman finding the feelings of responsibility.
Regds
I mean since SAMAJ-SURT actualy took place by nature thru a long time period after existance of Universe is actualy is said to be ADAM - man or woman finding the feelings of responsibility.
Regds
drkhalsa
SPNer
- Sep 16, 2004
- 1,308
- 54
Dear Vijaydeep Singh
Thanks for the above verse
In this verse Bhagat kabir has used bekief system of both Muslim and hindu people to give his message of accepting Akals will and as MAX mention to say that god exist in all
Kabir Ji has stressed in Rahao Pankati :
ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मजलसि दूरि महलु को पावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
majlas door mahal ko paavai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
His Court is so far away; only a rare few attain the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||Pause||
Raising a query and then answering at the end as Accepting Akal 's will
To understand it one need to have good knowldfe of Holy Kuran and Holy Bible.
In islam : there is belief of Savaa Lakh Rasool ( 1 lakh 25 thousand prophet and Prohet Muhammed to be the last )
I Hindu faith : 84 lakh junes / life menefestaion .
33 crores Devi / Devtas or Demi gods
Jatinder Singh
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kanwal295
SPNer
Dear all
about Adam and Eve.... I am not a philosopher or a scholar, but as I see the old Testament in the Bible..... mankind originate only about 6000 years ago whereas there is scientific proof and even mythological proof that mankind has been long before this time.... Talk about 4 yugas which some believe could be as long 125000 years and most agree that it is only 2500 years.... that would mean at least 9000 years.... again, Bible mentions that God created the whole creation in 6 days and rested on the 4th....... which we all know from scientific facts and from SGGS ( I can't give you the parmans) that the creation has been there for much longer and took a longtime to evolve...... so what I am driving at is the metaphoric language used.... Adam and Eve could be humanity (Satyug) and that I think holds water, for when Cain (Adam's son who killed Able, another son) was banished , he went to another place and got married obviously to a woman, who must be existing somewhere where he went (another nation).... so that means Eve was not just the only woman created.... and if she was the only woman created then Cain would not be able to find another woman as Adam and Eve only had two sons and there were no more humans... so it means humanity of the Satyug ...i believe...
Kanwal Jit Singh
about Adam and Eve.... I am not a philosopher or a scholar, but as I see the old Testament in the Bible..... mankind originate only about 6000 years ago whereas there is scientific proof and even mythological proof that mankind has been long before this time.... Talk about 4 yugas which some believe could be as long 125000 years and most agree that it is only 2500 years.... that would mean at least 9000 years.... again, Bible mentions that God created the whole creation in 6 days and rested on the 4th....... which we all know from scientific facts and from SGGS ( I can't give you the parmans) that the creation has been there for much longer and took a longtime to evolve...... so what I am driving at is the metaphoric language used.... Adam and Eve could be humanity (Satyug) and that I think holds water, for when Cain (Adam's son who killed Able, another son) was banished , he went to another place and got married obviously to a woman, who must be existing somewhere where he went (another nation).... so that means Eve was not just the only woman created.... and if she was the only woman created then Cain would not be able to find another woman as Adam and Eve only had two sons and there were no more humans... so it means humanity of the Satyug ...i believe...
Kanwal Jit Singh
Sath Shri Akal Kanwal Paaji.
very interesting actually. i just checke my bible, and yes it says that Kain got married to a woman at the place he fled to..
i dont know much about this kaala yug...when did it start, and how?
and what does this mean:
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs,
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1||
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1||
who are these attendants and shaykhs?
and can u provide the parmans from Sri Guru Granth Sahab Maharaj which states that the universe or earth is older than the 8000 years which the bible states it to be..
very interesting actually. i just checke my bible, and yes it says that Kain got married to a woman at the place he fled to..
i dont know much about this kaala yug...when did it start, and how?
and what does this mean:
He is said to have 88,000,000 shaykhs,
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
छपन कोटि जा के खेल खासी ॥१॥
chhapan kot jaa kay khayl khaasee. ||1||
and 56,000,000 attendants. ||1||
who are these attendants and shaykhs?
and can u provide the parmans from Sri Guru Granth Sahab Maharaj which states that the universe or earth is older than the 8000 years which the bible states it to be..
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:shock: to think that there was no adam and eve is to say that we believe nothing and that we are able to pick and choose what ever we wish to be true. One can not help but believe that there were indead an Adam and an Eve as the scripture has said it to be so, if we do not believe this then we may as well believe Nothing!!
It is not my place to say that those who choose to believe otherwise are any-less worthy only that they are not in tune with realisim and must for the own sake have anouther look at what is writtin
It is not my place to say that those who choose to believe otherwise are any-less worthy only that they are not in tune with realisim and must for the own sake have anouther look at what is writtin
jonnyBravoWarm said:
510mandeep
SPNer
- Feb 9, 2009
- 1
- 0
He has 33,000,000 play-houses. His beings wander insanely through 8.4 million
incarnations. He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind, who then lived in paradise for a long time. || 2 || Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. One who blames
the world, and is angry with people, shall receive the fruits of his own actions. || 3 ||incarnations. He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind, who then lived in paradise for a long time. || 2 || Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed. They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil. One who blames
adam also known as Baba Ahdam
The following Shabad of Bhagat Kabir ji on 1261 SGGS has very different application than it has been expressed here in some posts.
ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
Ŧeṯīs karoṛī hai kẖel kẖānā. Cẖa▫urāsī lakẖ firai ḏivānāʼn. Bābā āḏam ka▫o kicẖẖ naḏar ḏikẖā▫ī. Un bẖī bẖisaṯ gẖanerī pā▫ī. ||2||
He has thirty three millions of play-houses. His beings madly wander in eighty four lakhs of existences. The Lord showed some favour to Baba Adam, and he obtained paradise for a long time.
(ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਦੱਸਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਤੇਤੀ ਕਰੋੜ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਹਨ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਭੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਿੱਥੇ ਸੁਣਨੀ ਹੈ?)। ਚੌਰਾਸੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ (ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ) ਝੱਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ। (ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਤੁਸੀ ਦੱਸਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਨੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਹੀ ਆਖਣ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਜਦੋਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਬ ਨੇ (ਉਸ ਦੀ ਹੁਕਮ-ਅਦੂਲੀ ਤੇ) ਰਤਾ ਕੁ ਅੱਖ ਵਿਖਾਈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਆਦਮ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਥੋੜਾ ਚਿਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਣਿਆ (ਉੱਥੋਂ ਛੇਤੀ ਕੱਢਿਆ ਗਿਆ, ਤੇ ਜੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਵਰਗੇ ਕੱਢੇ ਗਏ, ਤਾਂ ਦੱਸ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਨੂੰ ਉੱਥੇ ਕੋਈ ਕਿਤਨਾ ਚਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੇਵੇਗਾ?)।੨।
This reference given by Kabir ji is not verification of Adam or Baba Adam as their being reality at all but a response to those who talk about many big personalities as per Holy Quran to have heaven and one of them is Baba Adam(Adam). The whole Shabad by Bhagat Kabir ji is just to express his own views in context of big personalities and heaven. He expresses his views in the following Vakas in the same Shabad, please read on
ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥ ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥ ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥
Ŧum ḏāṯe ham saḏā bẖikẖārī. Ḏe▫o jabāb ho▫e bajgārī. Ḏās Kabīr ṯerī panah samānāʼn. Bẖisaṯ najīk rākẖ rėhmānā. ||4||7||15||
Thou are the Giver, O Lord, and I am ever a beggar at Thy gate. If I deny Thee, then I become a sinner. Kabir, Thy slave, has entered into thy refuge. Keeps me near Thee, O Merciful Master and that is heaven for me.
(ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਹੈਂ, ਮੈਂ ਸਦਾ (ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰ ਦਾ) ਮੰਗਤਾ ਹਾਂ (ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਤੂੰ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ ਉਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਹੈ, ਤੇਰੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਦਾਤ ਅੱਗੇ) ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਹ-ਨੁੱਕਰ ਕਰਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਮੇਰੀ ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰੀ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ। ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ। ਹੇ ਰਹਿਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਰੱਖ, (ਇਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ) ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ।੪।੭।੧੫। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੂੰ ਗਹੁ ਨਾਲ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆਂ ਇਉਂ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਨ ਲਈ, ਤੇ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ। ਆਪਣੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਬਜ਼ੁਰਗੀ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੱਤ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇ ਹਨ, ਸਵਾ ਲੱਖ ਪੈਗ਼ੰਬਰ ਹਨ, ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ; ਉਹ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਇਕ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਜੁਲਾਹ ਹਾਂ, ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਭੀ ਮੈਂ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ। ਤੁਸੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦਾ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ; ਮੇਰੀ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਦੀ ਉੱਥੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਾਰਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਅਪੜਾਉਣੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ ਮੈਂ ਆਪ ਇਤਨੀ ਦੂਰ ਅੱਪੜ ਸਕਾਂਗਾ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੇ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਚੂੰਕਿ ਕਿਸੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਕਤੇਬ' ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹੈ। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ ਹੋਏ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕੇ ਅਗਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
Obviously doesn’t care about all big personalities and their said success, he just wants the Lord’s grace on him that is his Heaven. Metaphorically it is a kind of very strong opposite expression about Islamic religious leader’s claims about different personalities. Bhagat Kabir ji takes on Hindu concept of Heaven in the next Shabad and declares
ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਅਬ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੈ ਆਹਿ ॥੪॥੮॥੧੬॥
Kahi kamīr ab kahī▫ai kāhi. Sāḏẖsangaṯ baikunṯẖe āhi. ||4||8||16||
Says Kabir, what more can I say now, than that the society of the saints alone is the heaven?
ਕਬੀਰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ-(ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਕਿਤੇ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਕਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਆਖੀਏ ਕਿ ਸਾਧ-ਸੰਗਤ ਹੀ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਹੈ? (ਤੇ ਉਹ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਇੱਥੇ ਹੀ ਹੈ)
Well aligned with Gurmat, Bhagat Kabir ji only believes to have heaven in praising the Lord or in a company of Saints who are into praising Him.
ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
Ŧeṯīs karoṛī hai kẖel kẖānā. Cẖa▫urāsī lakẖ firai ḏivānāʼn. Bābā āḏam ka▫o kicẖẖ naḏar ḏikẖā▫ī. Un bẖī bẖisaṯ gẖanerī pā▫ī. ||2||
He has thirty three millions of play-houses. His beings madly wander in eighty four lakhs of existences. The Lord showed some favour to Baba Adam, and he obtained paradise for a long time.
(ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਦੱਸਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਤੇਤੀ ਕਰੋੜ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕ ਹਨ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਭੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਿੱਥੇ ਸੁਣਨੀ ਹੈ?)। ਚੌਰਾਸੀਹ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ (ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ) ਝੱਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ। (ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਤੁਸੀ ਦੱਸਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਨੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਹੀ ਆਖਣ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਜਦੋਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਬ ਨੇ (ਉਸ ਦੀ ਹੁਕਮ-ਅਦੂਲੀ ਤੇ) ਰਤਾ ਕੁ ਅੱਖ ਵਿਖਾਈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਆਦਮ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਥੋੜਾ ਚਿਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਣਿਆ (ਉੱਥੋਂ ਛੇਤੀ ਕੱਢਿਆ ਗਿਆ, ਤੇ ਜੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਵਰਗੇ ਕੱਢੇ ਗਏ, ਤਾਂ ਦੱਸ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਨੂੰ ਉੱਥੇ ਕੋਈ ਕਿਤਨਾ ਚਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੇਵੇਗਾ?)।੨।
This reference given by Kabir ji is not verification of Adam or Baba Adam as their being reality at all but a response to those who talk about many big personalities as per Holy Quran to have heaven and one of them is Baba Adam(Adam). The whole Shabad by Bhagat Kabir ji is just to express his own views in context of big personalities and heaven. He expresses his views in the following Vakas in the same Shabad, please read on
ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥ ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥ ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥
Ŧum ḏāṯe ham saḏā bẖikẖārī. Ḏe▫o jabāb ho▫e bajgārī. Ḏās Kabīr ṯerī panah samānāʼn. Bẖisaṯ najīk rākẖ rėhmānā. ||4||7||15||
Thou are the Giver, O Lord, and I am ever a beggar at Thy gate. If I deny Thee, then I become a sinner. Kabir, Thy slave, has entered into thy refuge. Keeps me near Thee, O Merciful Master and that is heaven for me.
(ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਹੈਂ, ਮੈਂ ਸਦਾ (ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰ ਦਾ) ਮੰਗਤਾ ਹਾਂ (ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਤੂੰ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ ਉਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਹੈ, ਤੇਰੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਦਾਤ ਅੱਗੇ) ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਹ-ਨੁੱਕਰ ਕਰਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਮੇਰੀ ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰੀ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ। ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ। ਹੇ ਰਹਿਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ! ਮੈਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਰੱਖ, (ਇਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ) ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ।੪।੭।੧੫। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੂੰ ਗਹੁ ਨਾਲ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆਂ ਇਉਂ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਨ ਲਈ, ਤੇ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ। ਆਪਣੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਬਜ਼ੁਰਗੀ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸੱਤ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇ ਹਨ, ਸਵਾ ਲੱਖ ਪੈਗ਼ੰਬਰ ਹਨ, ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ; ਉਹ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਇਕ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਜੁਲਾਹ ਹਾਂ, ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਬਣਿਆਂ ਭੀ ਮੈਂ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ। ਤੁਸੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦਾ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਸਤਵੇਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ; ਮੇਰੀ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਦੀ ਉੱਥੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਾਰਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਅਪੜਾਉਣੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਹੀ ਮੈਂ ਆਪ ਇਤਨੀ ਦੂਰ ਅੱਪੜ ਸਕਾਂਗਾ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੇ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਚੂੰਕਿ ਕਿਸੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਕਤੇਬ' ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹੈ। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ ਹੋਏ ਬਹਿਸ਼ਤ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕੇ ਅਗਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਿਥੇ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
Obviously doesn’t care about all big personalities and their said success, he just wants the Lord’s grace on him that is his Heaven. Metaphorically it is a kind of very strong opposite expression about Islamic religious leader’s claims about different personalities. Bhagat Kabir ji takes on Hindu concept of Heaven in the next Shabad and declares
ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਅਬ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੈ ਆਹਿ ॥੪॥੮॥੧੬॥
Kahi kamīr ab kahī▫ai kāhi. Sāḏẖsangaṯ baikunṯẖe āhi. ||4||8||16||
Says Kabir, what more can I say now, than that the society of the saints alone is the heaven?
ਕਬੀਰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ-(ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਕਿਤੇ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ) ਕਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਆਖੀਏ ਕਿ ਸਾਧ-ਸੰਗਤ ਹੀ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਹੈ? (ਤੇ ਉਹ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਇੱਥੇ ਹੀ ਹੈ)
Well aligned with Gurmat, Bhagat Kabir ji only believes to have heaven in praising the Lord or in a company of Saints who are into praising Him.
has anyone noticed the obvious "additions"..the translator adds...
While the Gurbani just mentions Baba Adam... the translator adds..FATHER OF MANKIND !!This is drawn out of his own hat !! many many more such self added additions appear in this particular translation..
2. This entire passage is an "propoganda tactic by a Muslim trying to attract Bhagat kabir Ji to Islam....and at the END Bhagat Kabir Ji gives his own VIEWS....which are 110% PERFECT and according to the Mesage in SGGS.
3. This thought process of Bhagat Kabir Ji can be seen in the following passage which is based on HINDUISM..and there also Bhagat kabir Jis answer is the SAME.
SGGS and Gurbani CANNOT be read in ISOLATION.....the entire passage..sometimes running into several PAGES have to be READ all in "PIECE" to get at what the SGGS/GURMAT viewpoint is.... taking out isolated tuks..shabds..passages is Counter Productive and gives wrong message.
Bhagt kabir Ji doesnt give TWO HOOTS..to the laksh of prophets, devtas, commanders, baba Adams and Eves..etc etc etc....HE SAYS....NAAM JAPP is of the ESSENCE..here and elsewhere...NONE of these prophets and commanders etc are goign to even bother about a poor man like him...Naam Japp HERE in this WORLD and ENJOY all those HEAVENS HERE !!!is the BOTTOM LINE !!
Blunt language....suits the ocassion...:happy:
While the Gurbani just mentions Baba Adam... the translator adds..FATHER OF MANKIND !!This is drawn out of his own hat !! many many more such self added additions appear in this particular translation..
2. This entire passage is an "propoganda tactic by a Muslim trying to attract Bhagat kabir Ji to Islam....and at the END Bhagat Kabir Ji gives his own VIEWS....which are 110% PERFECT and according to the Mesage in SGGS.
3. This thought process of Bhagat Kabir Ji can be seen in the following passage which is based on HINDUISM..and there also Bhagat kabir Jis answer is the SAME.
SGGS and Gurbani CANNOT be read in ISOLATION.....the entire passage..sometimes running into several PAGES have to be READ all in "PIECE" to get at what the SGGS/GURMAT viewpoint is.... taking out isolated tuks..shabds..passages is Counter Productive and gives wrong message.
Bhagt kabir Ji doesnt give TWO HOOTS..to the laksh of prophets, devtas, commanders, baba Adams and Eves..etc etc etc....HE SAYS....NAAM JAPP is of the ESSENCE..here and elsewhere...NONE of these prophets and commanders etc are goign to even bother about a poor man like him...Naam Japp HERE in this WORLD and ENJOY all those HEAVENS HERE !!!is the BOTTOM LINE !!
Blunt language....suits the ocassion...:happy:
Adam and eve simply could not have existed, furthermore the story does not contain a very good moral lesson. As the story goes God created man in the form of himself ***( now let me just point out sumthing my philosphy teacher once told me and thats is "IF horses could draw God they'd draw God as a horse) **
and created many animals in pairs seeing all the animals with mates man felt alone so from the rib of adam god created woman (which is ironic since it is from woman that man is conceived and born) . God told adam and eve that they could eat what they wanted so long as they did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when you do you shall sureley die. Eve one day while alone gathering food happened to meet a serpant (satan) who seduced her into eating fruit from the tree of knowledge although she protested that God had told her not to he told her God had said that because by eating the fruit they would become like god and god didnt want that, eve not knowing right from wrong good from evil eats the fruit and "falls". Adam who comes to find eve knows that she will now eventually die and not wanting to live alone without her also eats from the tree as well. The two know become aware of there nakedness and feel ashamed and hide in fig leaves and some stories say that it then that the two give into their lust for each other. The story all in all blames the downfall of humanity on women since she was the one seduced by the devil, however if one were to logically think it through eve was influenced by a devil to eat the fruit, while adam by a mere human. God then punishes adam and eve for not obeying his command by cursing them with hard labour and ain in child birth, and of course they now will eventually die, and all children they produce will also be cursed in the same ways, (in oher words its ok to punish peole for the sins of others).
Back to the point about adam and eve being the mother and father of all creation this makes no sense from a biological perspective. After Adam and Eve had children, how did they proceed onto the third generation? The children must have slept with each other, or their own parents. Although this leads morality issues even if such were the case Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. This happens to isolated Human population even when there are more then two families. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs. The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms. Which is perhaps why sikhism doesnot allow marrying members of ones family.Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. The only way that it can be true is if god had created other humans (who must have been fallen since they too must have been succumbed to death and disease) after adam and eve fell.
and created many animals in pairs seeing all the animals with mates man felt alone so from the rib of adam god created woman (which is ironic since it is from woman that man is conceived and born) . God told adam and eve that they could eat what they wanted so long as they did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when you do you shall sureley die. Eve one day while alone gathering food happened to meet a serpant (satan) who seduced her into eating fruit from the tree of knowledge although she protested that God had told her not to he told her God had said that because by eating the fruit they would become like god and god didnt want that, eve not knowing right from wrong good from evil eats the fruit and "falls". Adam who comes to find eve knows that she will now eventually die and not wanting to live alone without her also eats from the tree as well. The two know become aware of there nakedness and feel ashamed and hide in fig leaves and some stories say that it then that the two give into their lust for each other. The story all in all blames the downfall of humanity on women since she was the one seduced by the devil, however if one were to logically think it through eve was influenced by a devil to eat the fruit, while adam by a mere human. God then punishes adam and eve for not obeying his command by cursing them with hard labour and ain in child birth, and of course they now will eventually die, and all children they produce will also be cursed in the same ways, (in oher words its ok to punish peole for the sins of others).
Back to the point about adam and eve being the mother and father of all creation this makes no sense from a biological perspective. After Adam and Eve had children, how did they proceed onto the third generation? The children must have slept with each other, or their own parents. Although this leads morality issues even if such were the case Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. This happens to isolated Human population even when there are more then two families. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs. The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms. Which is perhaps why sikhism doesnot allow marrying members of ones family.Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. The only way that it can be true is if god had created other humans (who must have been fallen since they too must have been succumbed to death and disease) after adam and eve fell.
tony
SPNer
I was brought up as a Christian and this always puzzled me. lessons at shcool teaching me one thing and the bible telling me another. But this is what i came up with so as not to disprove my faith in God. The Bible stories where told thousands of years ago and that the people of that time were of a simple nature, none being able to read or write. Most of them at that time would not be able to count to 100 let alone able to image what a million was, so the stories had to be understandable thus a day was used as a way to describe a period of Earths history. If you actually read the bibles version of what happened it is no different to what the scientist say what happened, it even gets the sequence right, the only difference is the time line. Now the question of Adam and Eve, We all know what the scientist have proved, so did they exist the answer is yes but not as the first humans but as the first God fearing humans. It was the only way that the prophets at the time could explain how we came to be here as it was Charsle darwin who came up with the theory of evolution long after all mreligions where formed. To deny the existance of Adam and Eve would be to deny the existance of God it was to tell the people of the time were we came from and as some one pointed out earlier in this thread things get changed in translation and the retelling of stories. Play chinese whispers. Another example of the Bilbe stories which is unbelievable is Noahs storie, Noah takes every animal two at a time onto the Ark, impossible the ark would have to of been bigger than the QE2, Yet scientists have uncovered prove that there was a large flood around that time, So may be Noah only took the animals that lived around him. now the Ark doesnt need to be as big and so the story becomes more believable. Remember the bible was written by simple men from stories that where retold several thousands of times over thousands of years so you need to think about this before you disbelieve it, because no one has ever seen God yet all Sikhs believe in Him. Tony
Archived_Member5
(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
A hypothetical – God created man and woman as one being with woman attached to the rear of mans mind as his wisdom. Man talked to this conscience a part of him unseen and unbeheld. It was decided to separate man from woman as man too akin to the creatures of Eden requested a mate. Thus Lilith was created from his thought, imagination, mind. The two were given progeny and they multiplied. Prior to the mind becoming manifest in human form, Adam had frolicked with the creatures and along with the couples pure humans came into being half creature, half human beings.
The Almighty loved his couple who brought him much joy. Alas the beings battling with a dual carnal and human nature rose in rebellion. The Lords of Eden felt Lilith too wise for Adam, whilst the miscreants schemed to supplant one of their number with Adam. The couple were tormented and torn apart.
Lilith repudiated Adam by speaking Gods name three times and left him, but didn’t manage to return to her creator’s home instead falling prey and victim to the vagabonds who had engineered her divorce. The Creator upon hearing of Lilith’s repudiation sent three angels to demand she return to Adam. Lilith refused as she felt she had been compromised by the vagabonds.
God relented and agreed with Adam becoming eve’s husband. The vagabonds astonished at his inability to extricate the mother and first lady of his creation saw God was weak, and in holding wisdom and the progenitor, Lilith, and controlling Adam through his submission and fall from grace in the Creators eyes and outcast from Eden thereafter controlled creation thereby. It is written whilst they have the progenitor and wisdom, nor God nor any can overpower the vagabonds.
Each Lord and Angel arising to save their mother was led astray by the vagabond’s muses and destroyed thereby. This legacy continues to this day. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called the Great Divorce, based upon this original sin of treachery and conquer of Gods Empire in the beginning and the subsequent separation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit trinity, in turn causing all division in the world.
It is a tale played out in many Sikh homes where the daughter –in-law envious, covetous, ambitious, avaricious, angered and with lust plots with the son to overcome the parents in law and gain power and dominance of the in-laws name and property thereby. Eve in submitting Adam and plotting with the snake to overtake God and seize power committed all seven sins in the one act – hence called the original sin. The division of Church, State and Media replacing scriptures causing all division in the world.
It is the falling prey to sinful woman and the downfall of man from grace into a hell where he is compelled to overcome the original sins, shed his ego, become pure in Spirit prior to his returning to the light of the Supreme Spirit.
The Almighty loved his couple who brought him much joy. Alas the beings battling with a dual carnal and human nature rose in rebellion. The Lords of Eden felt Lilith too wise for Adam, whilst the miscreants schemed to supplant one of their number with Adam. The couple were tormented and torn apart.
Lilith repudiated Adam by speaking Gods name three times and left him, but didn’t manage to return to her creator’s home instead falling prey and victim to the vagabonds who had engineered her divorce. The Creator upon hearing of Lilith’s repudiation sent three angels to demand she return to Adam. Lilith refused as she felt she had been compromised by the vagabonds.
God relented and agreed with Adam becoming eve’s husband. The vagabonds astonished at his inability to extricate the mother and first lady of his creation saw God was weak, and in holding wisdom and the progenitor, Lilith, and controlling Adam through his submission and fall from grace in the Creators eyes and outcast from Eden thereafter controlled creation thereby. It is written whilst they have the progenitor and wisdom, nor God nor any can overpower the vagabonds.
Each Lord and Angel arising to save their mother was led astray by the vagabond’s muses and destroyed thereby. This legacy continues to this day. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called the Great Divorce, based upon this original sin of treachery and conquer of Gods Empire in the beginning and the subsequent separation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit trinity, in turn causing all division in the world.
It is a tale played out in many Sikh homes where the daughter –in-law envious, covetous, ambitious, avaricious, angered and with lust plots with the son to overcome the parents in law and gain power and dominance of the in-laws name and property thereby. Eve in submitting Adam and plotting with the snake to overtake God and seize power committed all seven sins in the one act – hence called the original sin. The division of Church, State and Media replacing scriptures causing all division in the world.
It is the falling prey to sinful woman and the downfall of man from grace into a hell where he is compelled to overcome the original sins, shed his ego, become pure in Spirit prior to his returning to the light of the Supreme Spirit.
tony
SPNer
Wjkk Wjkf
Not quite sure what your saying there jeetijohal ji, are you still saying that every Women is the same and to blame for mans weakness for the flesh. please clarify
Tony
Not quite sure what your saying there jeetijohal ji, are you still saying that every Women is the same and to blame for mans weakness for the flesh. please clarify
Tony
Archived_Member5
(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Tony Ji, obviously all mortals are not created the same.
The post implies when man is weakened reduced in his rights and feminism arises, with domineering women accorded power by law than by grace or conduct it is then we witness Armageddon, holy war, division, struggle and increase in evil. There is no other nation in the world where women are accorded equal if not greater power than men than in the US. Along with the rise in feminism, we witness the increase in deviant behaviour as man rejects woman for his the company of his own, increase in many ailments in man and the prevalence of such outright and perverse wickedness as to defy belief, Guantanamo Bay an example. Woman is born of man, procreates with man and gives birth to man, success in life is perfect coexistence with understanding and respect of one another. Sin nature, a disease of the soul creates covetousness, envy, a greed resulting in high divorce rates, dysfunctional society, broken children and the rise of godless heathenism. When man is broken and subjugated, and woman empowered by his submission than by virtue, intelligence, and honour it is then a disparity occurs. Woman was mans wisdom, whilst he was Lord and King she was his partner and supporter, uniting his brethren as one and making his job as Judge a light one. Sometimes man is wise and the woman’s submits. In a loving society, family or marriage, the strong assumes leadership, the wise role of pastoral guidance. Envy and ambition exploit a tender link and create what is the modern day societal debacle.
The post implies when man is weakened reduced in his rights and feminism arises, with domineering women accorded power by law than by grace or conduct it is then we witness Armageddon, holy war, division, struggle and increase in evil. There is no other nation in the world where women are accorded equal if not greater power than men than in the US. Along with the rise in feminism, we witness the increase in deviant behaviour as man rejects woman for his the company of his own, increase in many ailments in man and the prevalence of such outright and perverse wickedness as to defy belief, Guantanamo Bay an example. Woman is born of man, procreates with man and gives birth to man, success in life is perfect coexistence with understanding and respect of one another. Sin nature, a disease of the soul creates covetousness, envy, a greed resulting in high divorce rates, dysfunctional society, broken children and the rise of godless heathenism. When man is broken and subjugated, and woman empowered by his submission than by virtue, intelligence, and honour it is then a disparity occurs. Woman was mans wisdom, whilst he was Lord and King she was his partner and supporter, uniting his brethren as one and making his job as Judge a light one. Sometimes man is wise and the woman’s submits. In a loving society, family or marriage, the strong assumes leadership, the wise role of pastoral guidance. Envy and ambition exploit a tender link and create what is the modern day societal debacle.
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