Islam What Do You Think Of Islam?

[ExploringSikhi]

I reject the science of the hadiths because it's a system of implying that hearsay evidence is acceptable. It's not and it will never be acceptable in my eyes. That's like believing chinese whispers! Science as defined by the dictionary includes methods for verification by observation and experimentation. This so called "science" is something so stark from any form of observation and experimentation that i dunno how the term science got stuck with it.

By the same token, you must then also reject the notion that the Qur'an has remained unchanged since the time of Muhammad? That belief is also largely based on hearsay.

 

[choochoochan]

No, not me. http://www.islamic-life.com/other-islamic-refutations/article-importance-scholarly-opinions-islam

"Muslims are obliged to ask scholars for their opinions regarding Islamic matters and off course their opinions must be sound and supported by correct understanding of Islam." (from the link).

When was the last time you went to a scholar and asked for clarification on Islamic theology? I bet my right arm no reputable scholar would say that what you believe is actually Islam.

This time I want an answer, what makes you think you are a greater authority on Islam than the scholars who have been studying it their entire lives?

Why do you keep posting links?

Well, for one. I've got a brain which works (i think) and i intend to use it. You know, to apply logical reasoning to everything. Even to what the scholars say.

Lol. I had gone to classes where the teachers (or as u call them "SCHOLARS") preached. And lo and behold! They called Shias unbelievers! You wanna know how i came to distrust these scholars and hadiths so much? I have a really good bohra friend who wears the riddaa, which is their equivalent to the hijab, and one day as we were in the canteen, we heard snickers in the native language that what she was doing is wrong, because her hair was showing. Most of the natives are Sunnis. Bohras, if you didn't know are Shias. She was hurt, and i asked her, with all honestly, how come the sunnis must hide every strand of hair while you don't? I searched and found the reason. The one hadith relied upon by the Sunnis (face and hands are the only things allowed to be shown by a female who has come of age) is not relied upon by Shias, in particular the Bohras. And all this, about 10 or so years ago.

So i applied my own noodle to the matter.

 

[spnadmin]

OK choochoochanji can explain her meaning better than I can. I am however repeating my impression that she is not asserting a new found "truth" which you find to be inaccurate. She seems to me to be reporting, not asserting, her interpretation, her synthesis of her understanding.

Why would she have to seek the guidance of an Islamic scholar to that end?

And btw Can you

be a slave to your 5 thieves and still achieve liberation.

Some would say you put the cart before the horse here. There is no way to rid oneself of the 5 the five thieves on one's own and believe one next proceeds to liberation. It takes a Liberator to free a slave. This happens with the grace of the Guru and with that the thieves go on their way.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

OK choochoochanji can explain her meaning better than I can. I am however repeating my impression that she is not asserting a new found "truth" which you find to be inaccurate. She seems to me to be reporting, not asserting, her interpretation, her synthesis of her understanding.

Why would she have to seek the guidance of an Islamic scholar to that end?

If she is doing that, then great, I say more power to her.

I simply want her to state it explicitly, that this is HER interpretation of Islam, not anyone else's, and to make it clear that her beliefs are not shared by the vast majority of Muslims around the world.

But as long as she tries to pass her beliefs off as the "correct Islam" or mainstream Islam, as long as she makes it seem like these beliefs are not limited to herself but are shared by a great deal of Muslims around the world, I will continue to reply and point out the error in her statements.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Why do you keep posting links?

Well, for one. I've got a brain which works (i think) and i intend to use it. You know, to apply logical reasoning to everything. Even to what the scholars say.

Lol. I had gone to classes where the teachers (or as u call them "SCHOLARS") preached. And lo and behold! They called Shias unbelievers! You wanna know how i came to distrust these scholars and hadiths so much? I have a really good bohra friend who wears the riddaa, which is their equivalent to the hijab, and one day as we were in the canteen, we heard snickers in the native language that what she was doing is wrong, because her hair was showing. Most of the natives are Sunnis. Bohras, if you didn't know are Shias. She was hurt, and i asked her, with all honestly, how come the sunnis must hide every strand of hair while you don't? I searched and found the reason. The one hadith relied upon by the Sunnis (face and hands are the only things allowed to be shown by a female who has come of age) is not relied upon by Shias, in particular the Bohras. And all this, about 10 or so years ago.

So i applied my own noodle to the matter.

You forgot to mention that even Shias have a set of Hadiths they deem to be authentic, that even Shias have Imams and Scholars that they rely upon for knowledge, so don't try to hide behind that statement.

Please make it clear that what you are saying is your own interpretation of Islam and that your beliefs are rejected by the vast majority of Muslims around the world and the vast majority of Islamic authority, and we can put this matter behind us.

I have a few other questions for you:

1) Show me where in the Qur'an it says all believers will go to hell.

2) Show me where in the Qur'an it says being Muslims doesn't give you any privelege to enter heaven.

3) What do you think is going to happen to polytheists when they die?

Thank you.

 

[spnadmin]

Well she does tell this delightful story about her bohra friend. And concludes she has put "her noodle to the matter."

 

[choochoochan]

By the same token, you must then also reject the notion that the Qur'an has remained unchanged since the time of Muhammad? That belief is also largely based on hearsay.

Only that i believe in the injunction that God will preserve the Quran. It's called faith, and i have none in the hadiths since they are man made and don't pass the test of logical reasoning.

 

[choochoochan]

Actually, it is not my personal opinion. You have used the term Quranist on me, and true enough there is a large enough group of Quranists around. We are a minority, but by no accounts does this mean, this is my personal opinion. And if you think this is my personal opinion, then more power to me!

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Only that i believe in the injunction that God will preserve the Quran. It's called faith, and i have none in the hadiths since they are man made and don't pass the test of logical reasoning.

Has faith that God will preserve the Qur'an.

Things it is illogical to have faith in the hadiths.

I hope you see the contradiction in your own text.

Actually, it is not my personal opinion. You have used the term Quranist on me, and true enough there is a large enough group of Quranists around. We are a minority, but by no accounts does this mean, this is my personal opinion. And if you think this is my personal opinion, then more power to me!

It is not just the fact that you are a Qur'anist. You have made statements such as "all believers will go to hell" and "being a Muslim doesn't give you special privelege to enter heaven", both of which would be rejected by Qur'anists as well. You have effectively created your own brand of Islam.

I have asked you 3 questions in my last post, please respond when you get the time. I would love to pick at your brain a bit more and understand your reasoning.

 

[choochoochan]

Has faith that God will preserve the Qur'an.

Things it is illogical to have faith in the hadiths.

I hope you see the contradiction in your own text.



It is not just the fact that you are a Qur'anist. You have made statements such as "all believers will go to hell" and "being a Muslim doesn't give you special privelege to enter heaven", both of which would be rejected by Qur'anists as well. You have effectively created your own brand of Islam.

I have asked you 3 questions in my last post, please respond when you get the time. I would love to pick at your brain a bit more and understand your reasoning.

In the Quran, God has given the promise that the Quran shall be preserved. I see nothing in relation to these so called hadiths. I believe in that promise.

All believers as a default will go to hell. This is not a Quranist interpretation, a sunni or whatever. It's a fact accepted by many muslims. If all muslims will go to heaven, pray tell what is the point of surah al-kahf and the other ayahs where it is mentioned, time and time again, those who have faith AND commit righteous deeds, will feel the Lord's mercy. I actually need to thank you. I haven't read Surah Al-Khaf in a long while. Ok anyway, AND is used, not OR. You need to have faith AND commit good deeds. If you have faith AND commit bad deeds, you're going nowhere but hell itself.

What were your three questions? I only remember the last one about polytheists. Well, i believe that polytheism is one of the biggest sins as highlighted in the Quran but i doubt there is any religion in existence today, save for those eastern religions, which are considered polytheism. Not even Hinduism. Hinduism is just monotheism under the guise of polytheism. I do not agree with idolatry and will never agree with it. Hinduism, based on my limited understanding is that all the gods and goddesses make up the one whole supreme being. In that sense, the gods and goddesses are not partners to God, not like Allat to Allah and the other diminutive gods/goddesses, but rather aspects of the one supreme being. Certain groups worship a certain aspect of god more than the other.

I will get back to you on the other question soon.

 

[Ishna]

<off topic interjection> I can't find any pictures of the 'riddaa'. Choochoochan ji can you find a picture please? If you have the time. Many thanks.

 

[choochoochan]

<off topic interjection> I can't find any pictures of the 'riddaa'. Choochoochan ji can you find a picture please? If you have the time. Many thanks.

http://www.zawaj.com/mass-dawoodi-bohra-wedding-in-mumbai/

 

[choochoochan]

I have a few other questions for you:

1) Show me where in the Qur'an it says all believers will go to hell.

2) Show me where in the Qur'an it says being Muslims doesn't give you any privelege to enter heaven.

3) What do you think is going to happen to polytheists when they die?

Thank you.

Erm, i think i have answered all that in the previous post. Being a muslim will give you the extra advantage, but it won't by default grant you an entrance into heaven. As i've said, it's a combination of faith and deeds. I've never heard any muslim in my life who's said that just because he is a muslim, he's gotten a ticket to heaven. Mercy is only with the Lord and the grant of such mercy is with the Lord only. We cannot be so pompous to think we are all going to heaven just because we are a certain faith. That is the primary reason why i rejected Christianity. So it means, i can murder 100 people, but as long as i accept christ, i will be saved? I really don't think so.

http://www.islamawareness.net/HeavenHell/sure.html
http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/1361/do-non-muslims-have-chance-to-go-to-paradise

 

[choochoochan]

It's usually a muslim boyfriend that helps instigate and ignite the ideas of conversion.
I apologise in advance if choochan had never had any such friend or is very far from falling under this banner.eacesign:

I am married to a muslim but i did not convert because of him. I had already converted. Thankfully, he's not a nutter in religious affairs and when i pointed some hadiths to him, he went..that's nuts. Whatever they were smoking, i want me some of that.

Although borne into a sikh household, i have to confess that i was never a good sikh. Never. I tried to be but couldn't find the connection with the gurus' works except for Guru Nanak's works. As such, my friends' parents took it upon them to convert me, but never my muslim friends nor their parents. They perhaps thought it a guarded secret, this Islam ..this Quran. I've had Buddhists preaching to me, Christians..telling me i was going to hell. As i've said, i thought the Quran was all bad growing up, to the extent i told my arab friend that i will never convert to be a muslim even if i married a muslim.

My mum is very understanding. She said she is fine as long as i still believe in God. My dad passed away when i was quite young (not a child but relatively young) and he wasn't keen on Sikhism. He was more in tuned to Buddhism.

All i can say is, it's not about increasing the number of members in any religion, any religion which guides in the righteous path and gives you solace is the one for you. Surely God knew that not all of mankind will agree on ONE religion and this is reflected in the Quran (OK I WILL STOP IT). We even argue about what to have for lunch!

 

[Ikk Khalsa]

Erm, i think i have answered all that in the previous post. Being a muslim will give you the extra advantage, but it won't by default grant you an entrance into heaven.
http://www.islamawareness.net/HeavenHell/sure.html
http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/1361/do-non-muslims-have-chance-to-go-to-paradise

If you being Muslim and me being Sikh do the same deeds in our life, why would you have advantage over me? Do you think God (if there is one) is that closed minded?

Did you find peace in Islam or you just converted to get advantage into heaven?

Could you point out anything that you liked about Islam over Sikhism (other than after life stuff which Sikhism rejects)

We Sikhs (like any other religion) just want to know why our kids are parting away from religion. I know last question is little personal and you done have to answer if you don't feel comfortable

 

[choochoochan]

If you being Muslim and me being Sikh do the same deeds in our life, why would you have advantage over me? Do you think God (if there is one) is that closed minded?

Did you find peace in Islam or you just converted to get advantage into heaven?

Could you point out anything that you liked about Islam over Sikhism (other than after life stuff which Sikhism rejects)

We Sikhs (like any other religion) just want to know why our kids are parting away from religion. I know last question is little personal and you done have to answer if you don't feel comfortable

As blunt as this may sound, it's about believing in the books and revelations as revealed by God. That's the advantage, but that on its own won't grant you an entrance to anywhere.

Nope. Why would i convert just to get into heaven? That doesn't make much sense. I just found a sense of connection when i heard the Surahs. God willing, i will find peace SOON.

I do not really know what was it about Sikhism which did not connect with me. It was a combination of the whole, i suppose. I did not believe in the 5K's. I rejected the idea that keeping kesh was keeping us as how God wanted us to be. I remember reading a book, which justified why we should cut our nails, but not hair. And i rejected the idea that Halal or Kosher meat was seen as sacrificial meat. Say what you will (i've read the threads on Halal vs Jhatka), I know it isn't and knew it wasn't. Also, at the community level, there was a sense of isolation. Maybe it was just me. I can't really explain it. I just know, i saw some people in the Gurudwara so fervent and absorbed in their prayers, like they felt something. I felt nothing. At that point in time, i would have considered myself an agnostic or a borderline atheist.

By the way, is it a must for a sikh to eat Jhatka meat or any meat is fine, as long as it's non-halal/kosher/bali meat?

 

[spnadmin]

choochoochan ji

Jatka meat is eaten in some traditions (e.g., Nihang), but it is not a universal requirement of Sikhs. The only restriction is meat slaughtered "in the Muslim way" i.e., that makes halal and kosher methods of slaughter off the radar screen. The thought is that these are ritualized forms of slaughter. The prohibition of eating meat slaughtered this way is one of the few restrictions. It is considered one of the bujar kurehits.

 

[choochoochan]

choochoochan ji

Jatka meat is eaten in some traditions (e.g., Nihang), but it is not a universal requirement of Sikhs. The only restriction is meat slaughtered "in the Muslim way" i.e., that makes halal and kosher methods of slaughter off the radar screen. The thought is that these are ritualized forms of slaughter. The prohibition of eating meat slaughtered this way is one of the few restrictions. It is considered one of the bujar kurehits.

Thanks.

 

[Ikk Khalsa]

I myself is not very religious but I have hard time rejecting Sikhi because there is so much common sense in it and that's the reason I asked you those questions. And yes it sounds incredibly blunt that there is a book certified by God. I know if there is a god and he is the supreme power, he would had come up with better plan to have peace between all kind of people regardless of their race than sending his messengers down to earth time to time with different thinking/plans. I don't have 5ks but I don't reject the philosophy of Sikhi and the reason I stated above.

You try to make Islam (watered down version according to ExploringSikhi Ji) sound like Sikhi when it comes its philosophy which made me think why did you leave Sikhi if you like the concept of equality, humanity, and doing good deeds. BTW nails are dead cells and if you don't cut them, they will keep on growing and hair get to one length and then stop growing:redturban:. Dead hair fall off itself.

 

[choochoochan]

I myself is not very religious but I have hard time rejecting Sikhi because there is so much common sense in it and that's the reason I asked you those questions. And yes it sounds incredibly blunt that there is a book certified by God. I know if there is a god and he is the supreme power, he would had come up with better plan to have peace between all kind of people regardless of their race than sending his messengers down to earth time to time with different thinking/plans. I don't have 5ks but I don't reject the philosophy of Sikhi and the reason I stated above.

You try to make Islam (watered down version according to ExploringSikhi Ji) sound like Sikhi when it comes its philosophy which made me think why did you leave Sikhi if you like the concept of equality, humanity, and doing good deeds. BTW nails are dead cells and if you don't cut them, they will keep on growing and hair get to one length and then stop growing:redturban:. Dead hair fall off itself.

There are books, and revelations, in my belief revealed by God, not just certified. Actually, the Quran says that each People was sent a Messenger, not just those mentioned in the Quran, Torah and Gospel.

Nails and hair growing out of the follicle are dead. Whether you cut them or not, they are dead.

Sikhism and Islam have their similarities, but there are differences. I don't see anywhere where i tried to make both of them identical.