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Arts/Society What Are Your Thoughts On The Interaction Of Male / Female Relationship Of Marriage?

Luckysingh

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Well yeah...... Men can't breastfeed yet as far as I knowlol
'Enforced' by society is probably a better term than 'created'.....I agree !

I'm saying this even though I am the more 'feminine' one in our relationship but I think we spend about the same getting ready in front of the mirror in the morning.
 
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Well yeah...... Men can't breastfeed yet as far as I knowlol
'Enforced' by society is probably a better term than 'created'.....I agree !

I'm saying this even though I am the more 'feminine' one in our relationship but I think we spend about the same getting ready in front of the mirror in the morning.
My family complains about how much time I take in the washroom, but I can't help it, gotta keep that skin, nails and hair in tip-top condition, know what I mean? lol
 

Harkiran Kaur

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So how do you explain those people who slipped through the evolutionary cracks?? You know, those of us who refuse to accept our evolutionary lot in life as the subordinate?

I really have no maternal instinct? Maybe a defective biological clock?? Changing diapers just doesn't appeal to me. If I stayed at home all day, I'd sooner watch tv or be on the net than scrub anything... or better even, go out for a walk or to the mall, to the gym... anything but scrubbing and cooking. I don't mind baking sometimes... but usually meals for me are frozen microwave things... I watch Hell's Kitchen and wonder how people actually like cooking... and then have to clean up the mess made from cooking!

I joined the military as my career

Specialized as a submariner, which is STILL a male dominated specialty in the Navy and most countries don't even allow it! I was one of Canada's first 5 women to qualify!

I ride a motorcycle

I have skydived... numerous times

My #1 BIGGEST pet peeve is being told by a man that I can't do something just because I am not a man!

Hmmm I just realized maybe I am really a man??
 

Ishna

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When I'm not making paneer and exfoliating my husband's feet (he really does have terribly dry heels) I ride a motorcycle and work 5 days a week while he's home with the dog and doing grocery shopping with his mum or topping up the fluids in the car while I fold the washing... etcetc

Maybe for you Akasha ji you can take Guru Teg Bahadur's words where he talks about gold and silver being the same, praise and slander being the same, maybe for you it's 'women's work' and 'men's work' which needs to be seen the same way. At a personal level, for your own sanity.

We all have our preferences, I know plenty of women who love nesting and babies and entertaining and who aren't "subordinate".

I wonder if maybe you feel like you have something to prove? Or that at some level you resent being a woman and have an urge to be as manly as you can to prove your worthy? Which almost seems like being caught in a trap. I say this with good intentions, please don't misunderstand me.
 

Harry Haller

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Firstly, I do not see how airplane travel or the internet has anything to do with with rejecting or accepting our evolutionary past
think about it, or I will have to start using pictures to illustrate points instead, they evolved, we are evolving.

they have absolutely nothing to do with "masculinity" or "femininity". It isn't much different than when humans first invented spears to hunt with, or discovered fire. They have allowed us to better survive in our environment, which is kinda the whole point of the process.
The answer to your question is hidden in the above paragraph, all 'masculinity' and 'femininity' is simply evolution, they arose from facets that allowed us to survive in our environment, the man was the hunter, the woman was the nurturer, today, brute strength is irrelevant, both men and woman can pretty much do anything the other can do,

As for your other point, about what is "masculine" and what is "feminine", all you have to do is turn back the clocks and figure out what the role of males and females has been throughout history. We are not asexual creatures, there is a reason why two separate genders exist, and they were not created for the same purposes.
I am not interested in a lecture from the past, I am talking about the now.

In a nutshell, masculine traits are those which display an ability to gather resources and improve survival of off-spring within this context (ie the ability to protect from predators, capable of catching prey and protecting partner and off-spring etc).

Feminine traits are those which display an ability to child-bear, raise new-borns into infancy and thus improve survival of off-spring (I will spare you the details, but you get the idea).

Masculinity plays a role in child-rearing and femininity in resource accumulation but they are not primary traits but rather secondary (ie men showing children how to hunt and women picking fruits and berries).

It is the difference between hunter and gatherer, the contrast between protecter and nurturer.
are these traits really relevant today?

I put it to you that your entire argument is based on facts from many centuries ago, in todays world, what is a male trait, and what is a female trait, just one of each will do
 

Harry Haller

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Hmmm I just realized maybe I am really a man??
I was not going to asy anything, but I agree with my sis, rather than push yourself as an independent woman with traits that are traditionally male, but can be female, your post comes across as actually confirming said traits are masculine, which has left me confused, and a bit tearful, I think maybe I am really a woman!
 

Harkiran Kaur

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I was not going to asy anything, but I agree with my sis, rather than push yourself as an independent woman with traits that are traditionally male, but can be female, your post comes across as actually confirming said traits are masculine, which has left me confused, and a bit tearful, I think maybe I am really a woman!

Harry Ji, you don't recognize sarcasm when you see it?? :kaurfacepalm:

I was trying to be funny.... Of course I do not think I am a man...

My point is, that women can also do all these things, and not all women are nurturers! And there are men who could nurture me to shame! This whole bread winner / nurturer thing is not revelant to the present time... where (actual childbirth aisde) men and women can pretty much do the same jobs interhcangeably!

I see many women now becoming police, military, firefighters, and they can and do pass the physical tests on par with the men! Women have been in space, made strides in science, even work on construction crews, mining etc. Due to their biology they may have to work a bit harder for the physical things... but they CAN do it! The only thing limiting them before were the men!

There are also men who can relate better to kids than some women and make great preschool teachers, etc. Women can be doctors just as easily as men can be nurses and personal care workers... etc.

While our biology might differ a bit... men and women both possess unimagined potential. And both should be able to explore it! One gender shouldn't be kept from realizing their potential just because society thinks they should be doing nothing but cooking and cleaning and changing nappies.

I believe in this day and age, household chores should be shared 50/50 and most families both parents must work anyway. (I don't think that necessarily means the child suffers either... look at it this way... children who attend playschool etc get socialized much earlier and that's a good thing. They learn to become more independant) Both parents can share equally in time with the kids... do things as a family in evenings and weekends. Both parents can cook together, and then the kids can pitch in and help do the dishes after. There's no rule that men can't change their fair share of diapers either or bathe their babies. And that bonding is awesome for both the Fathers as well as their babies!

The above scenario actually results in a much closer knit family even with both parents working. The old model of man gone all day, comes home and expects dinner on the table, then the wife has to clean up everything alone, while he sits and watches tv. The kids learn that Mother means servant... She never gets a break... has worked all day in the house, while he gets to rest in the evening. It works much better when chores are shared and when the family do things together. There is no "This is woman's work, a man would never stoop so low" or "a woman could NEVER do a man's job" etc.
 

kds1980

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I am not interested in a lecture from the past, I am talking about the now.



are these traits really relevant today?

I put it to you that your entire argument is based on facts from many centuries ago, in todays world, what is a male trait, and what is a female trait, just one of each will do
According to CNN survey the most popular job of women in USA 2010 is secretary and Most popular job among men in truck driving.among secretaries 96% are women while 95 % truck driver are men.Interestingly even in 1950 the most popular job among women was secretary .

The question is why such a high percentage of women choose to be secretary while high percentage of men choose to be truck driver?
 

Ishna

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Akasha ji,

I disagree that the only thing holding women back all this time has been men.

Personally, I would rather stay home and cook, clean, mend/make clothes, look after and teach children, than be out in the backbreaking field with nothing but an ox to help me drag the plough, an axe to chop wood, or be on the front line of war shooting people and trying not to get raped. I'm not strong, and physical aggression and strategy doesn't come naturally to me. Neither does nurturing, actually.

Part of me is also concerned that this whole "everyone should go for the career" development in society is changing the way we raise our children, leaving it up to childcare centres and schools to teach them everything, even the things parents should be teaching them, but parents are away too much with work and too when they're home they're too tired to give their kids attention.

KDS ji - I believe it's been proven (I can find a source) that men have better spacial awareness than men and therefore can manouver trucks better than women (see how careful I chose my words there LOL), and women generally can multitask a bit better than men (I don't know if this last point has any base in science). Of course there is overlap, some people have better skills in one area than they do in the other, that's just the randomness of life.

Having said that, it's interesting to note that most head chefs are men, and they wouldn need to multitask in a high pressure environment even faster than the secretary would!

Akasha, do you think anything to do with women is positive or should every woman try her hardest to be a man, because being a woman is so subserviant and demeaning?
 

Brother Onam

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!
There was a big Sikh parade and celebration in New York a few months ago, with thousands of Sikhs in attendance. The local Indian newspaper covered the event with a big commemorative spread, maybe 15-20 photos. There were wide shots of the marching crowds, photos of the floats and dias, many pictures of community leaders posing, group shots from related functions in town and many similar pictures.
In all the shots, I looked in vain for a female. In literally every shot we saw exclusively men featured, including in huge group shots of Sikhs posing. Only in the wide, high views of the parade could I make out any female figures.
I rather favour differences between males and females, and I think the creation bears this out; for me, it's pleasant to see men being strong and masculine (in current 'Western' society, I see more and more men with reedy, efeminate voices and insipid physiques; on the vanguard of some enlightened, post-gender utopia, I guess. But this always makes me a little queasy.) I like women who are comfortable being feminine.
Having said that, any suggestion that a woman is, in any way, inferior, less valuable, subservient, less holy, less cherished in the sight of Har, is a great error.
Especially in a culture of devotion in which, on paper, women are fully equal to men, it is doubly crucial that we actively defy the prevailing tendencies to allow men to lead, while women serve. I think it is the duty both of men, to encourage kaurs to take their rightful place at the side of the singhs; and the duty of females to boldly assert their unqualified parity with men. Otherwise we live out the display I saw in the Sikh parade; women willingly shrinking to invisible/supporting roles, while men take charge and dominate -the way of the 'world'.
In the sight of Har Har, we know men and women are co-equal in holiness; why not in real life?
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Akasha, do you think anything to do with women is positive or should every woman try her hardest to be a man, because being a woman is so subserviant and demeaning?
Where we differ is that I don't see domestic chores as 'womanly' I see them just as chores that both a husband and wife can do together. And I don't really think that the things I do should be considered as just for men... why do we need to keep assigning gender to everything?? WHy can't tasks just be.... tasks???

I feel my contribution to the Navy is as good as any other sailor. Why does it have to be considered that I am trying to 'be a man'?? When I go to sea, none of us on the submarine think about gender at all... we just become 'crew mates' I have always had an innate drive to be where the action is, to want to jump into that action and help. Even in my hobbies it shows... I volunteer as a medical responder. To me, the adrenaline rush of emergency medicine, and the feeling I get when I actually get to help someone in a emergency... to me I prefer that to say - babysitting or personal care work.

I have always been more drawn to that stuff than staying behind the lines, at home, and doing domestic work. I guess I feel like I am not using my brain as much with that stuff... it's just hugely mundane to me. I actually thrive in stressful situations and situations where I have to think quick. For example, standing as watch leader on the submarine in the sonar section... I get to yell on the 'net' calling out contacts and urgent reports, and the feeling when I successfully direct the sound room team, guys working under me and get fast paced reports out to command that could save the submarine feels amazing! Like a huge accomplishment that I worked very hard for!!!

Cleaning the toilet... not so much! I just don't get the same feeling of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong... I do keep my place clean!! I just don't feel the same sense of accomplishment, perseverance, etc as compared to something I worked really hard for.

I guess my problem with gender roles... in the traditional sense... is that men were the ones who always got to feel that sense of accomplishment. They were the only ones who got to challenge themselves with difficult tasks that required studying, hard work etc. They were the only ones who got any recognition... and that's why women were seen as not being able to vote even until recent times. Women were seen as simple, not smart, not capable... all because they were limited to simple domestic chores and not allowed to grow and develop themselves and challenge themselves. Society as a whole is better now because women have been able to contribute in very meaningful ways, like advances in medicine, science, etc! And there are women fighter pilots, astronauts (and btw women consistently score higher in men in tracking multiple enemy aircraft and engaging them when flying fighter jets - something about that multitasking ability!).

I also disagree that a child can't be loved and properly cared for when both parents work. I think it's the choice of the parents and their situation, but any that I know, still spend tons of time with their kids and love them to death. They have every evening and weekend and do things as a family. Both parents chip in on housework and both have great careers. Also, I have seen it where the woman works and the husband decided to stay home because she made more income and it made sense. They are also happy with their situations. The hubby uses a lot of the time to work in his shop at home doing carpentry making cabinets etc.

I'm not all 'tom boy' I suppose some 'feminine' things I like are the colour pink... pretty salwar kameez... shopping... feminine scents in a bubble bath etc. I do wear a little bit of makeup sometimes... not caked on or anything just a bit of flavoured lip gloss and a brow pencil (since I don't pluck my brows it shapes them better). Definitely shopping... but I prefer shopping for techy gadgets over shoes etc. lol.

I just think that whether a woman is domestic or career oriented, should be her choice and if she chooses a career she shouldn't be seen as trying to 'be a man' SAme as I think the men who stay home with kids shouldn't be seen as being emasculated.
 

Ishna

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Your brain and my brain are wired completely differently (must be that Campbell/MacDonald thing haha), we've got very different life experiences and perspectives. We really struggle to communicate, you and I. Essentially I reckon we're on the same page with most things when it comes right down to it and on this issue it's about choice. That is the critical piece of the puzzle.

WHy can't tasks just be.... tasks???
Thats what I've been trying to say!!!

Some people enjoy different things, and get a wonderful sense of accomplishment in different ways. You might enjoy being on the front lines and that works for you, you find it personally fulfilling. A woman who puts a lot of effort into cooking great food and keeping a spotless home probably gets a similar sense of accomplishment and fulfullment when they nail a recipe and can enjoy it with their families. Women who find fulfillment in this, and in raising children, shouldn't be seen as being simple and any less of people for choosing that instead of front-line military operations.

It does take some skill to be a homemaker, you know. Raising children doesn't just come naturally anymore. Cooking and cleaning is one part science, one part art, one part skill and one part prayer (in my case anyway hahaha). The wisdom of our foremothers would put you and I to shame, who could take a piece of thread and turn it into clothing, knew their tools inside out, could take a bad of wheat grains and turn it into flavoursome bread, who could get a stain out of pretty much anything, heal wounds, make nourishing food from absolute scratch. I think you gotta give the women of old a bit more credit! We wouldn't be where we are today without them.

Likewise we wouldn't be here without our men.

It's a team effort.
 

Harry Haller

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men are just boys and always remain boys, the toys just get bigger
girls grow into women, in most relationships the adult is the woman, but it is the man that gets recognised.

All that is happening today is that women need that recognition that has been the right of man for centuries.
 

kds1980

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KDS ji - I believe it's been proven (I can find a source) that men have better spacial awareness than men and therefore can manouver trucks better than women (see how careful I chose my words there LOL), and women generally can multitask a bit better than men (I don't know if this last point has any base in science). Of course there is overlap, some people have better skills in one area than they do in the other, that's just the randomness of life.
Ishna ji

I don't think that there is any scientific study which says men are better truck drivers.infact I search google and i found that a myth.I think it all comes to preference .women may prefer safe desk jobs even if they are low paying while while men may prefer jobs which are high paying even if there is more risk.

Some other stats which may surprise are only 2 percent USA taxi drivers are women and only 6.6 percent are pilots in USA. In India there are 10 % women pilots.Similarly only 15% women are in military in various countries barring Israel where 1/3 rd are women because its compulsary to join. Even in Israel only 3.3 % are in combat arms as the interest is low.So I think gender do influence career choices

Also other factor majority of women in country need need to reproduce as the existence of it depend on it. so majority of women may prefer safe desk jobs which allow them to be with thier kids
 

Ishna

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KDS ji

If you google "gender differences spatial awareness" you will find some scholarly articles which have discussed the issue of spatial awareness, not "truck driving" specifically. It's a common joke that men are "better drivers" yet women are "safer drivers" - personally I think it's because men are generally more aggressive and women are more careful.

The difference in spatial awareness between the genders is disputed as far as it being nurture rather than nature - the same way practice makes perfect and exposure to something increases proficiency, it seems girls aren't as exposed to things which cultivate spatial awareness as boy.

I was visiting my sister yesterday and talking about her work. She works in a warehouse and has her forklift and reach truck licenses. When loading trucks she said she often got comments from other truck drivers that she could "teach the men a thing or two" about the reach truck because the men were generally rough with the truck when loading but my sister was always gentle. She said driving these machines just came naturally to her, but a lot of the other women in the warehouse didn't want to do it because they were scared of lifting such heavy pallets so high in the air.

But that's a little bit off topic.

Thanks for the interesting stats on countries and women's career choices.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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My idea of Femininity stems from principles of Black Power. Be black and proud to some extent.

Being proud of what Onkaar has given you and the abilities you have as woman and not seeing yourself as a second hand man - the "ladette" culture we have.
And if those abilities that were given to me include being good at careers that were typically reserved for men... should I also then embrace it as part of my femininity? My point is, those things should not be seen as 'for men only' we should stop assigning gender roles to people / careers. If a woman has excellent abilities for things like firefighting, or police work etc.... why should it be up to men to decide that is not 'feminine' and she should go wash a dish instead? Obviously those talents were given to her BY WAHEGURU JI!

For me, I know I was definitely not blessed with domestic abilities.... I hate cooking, I burn food, I hate cleaning up the mess that cooking makes, I burn myself with an iron when trying to iron my clothes, I procrastinate a LOT with housework. I'd rather clean it and leave it clean (that means nobody can move anything out of place) than to have to keep cleaning it again and again. I was never attracted to babies and I am nervous around them... older kids are ok though, because they can comprehend what I am telling them to some degree. I don't have a lot of patience dealing with very young children or babies, or messy husbands etc. I wasn't born with that 'nurturing' gene I guess. I am a type A personality.

I excel in high stress physically demanding jobs. I get satisfaction knowing I can lead a team of sonar operators (my trade in the Navy) and direct them in high stress situations, maintaining team cohesion. In an emergency I can don full firefighting gear on board the submarine and fight a fire... or deal with ingress of water, or extricate someone injured off the sub. If I come across an accident scene, I know I won't ever panic. I can go right to the casualty and know what to do in emergency to save their life. Even my hobbies are what were typically male.. I ride a motorcycle for example...

Obviously I was given these traits by our Creator. So therefore, these traits should be beyond gender. It's only humans who assign gender to roles. Obviously God has different ideas. If I have an ability that I was blessed with by God, should I not be able to embrace it, without being seen as a 'second hand man'?

Not all women were born nurturers, just like not all men are born for physical labour etc. When the differences are skin colour, or ethnicity, religion etc we all seem to turn a blind eye but gender sticks as the one thing that wants to force people into assigned roles... why is that?? And those 'roles' always work out in the favour of men. And women always end up suffering and restricted. (I am talking in general terms.. in society)

Look at Muslim countries as an extreme example... in Saudi Arabia, women are not even allowed out of their homes without a mahram ( a male 'guardian') in Fact, her son is guardian over her and not the other way around. Women there, must cover head to toe even their face, are not allowed to drive, and must have permission from a male relative to do anything. This is all in the name of gender difference and roles... and even though Islam says that women and men are equal in the eyes of God, since it dictates in the Quran that women are weaker and men were given more strength, men must protect women. That 'protection' is the justification for the life they are subjected to there.

To lesser degrees, the same line of thinking has always prevailed. Even in the west. Women are weaker, therefore men dominate them. The result, men are happy and actually get to live. Women just exist to serve the whims of the men. (again, general terms in society... after all its only been recent history that women were given equal rights even in the West)

--- Now I do embrace feminine things... don't get me wrong. Like I said... shopping, the colour pink, pretty clothes etc. So I am not a 'tom boy' by any means. I just think women should have all the same opportunities for happiness that men have. If that does not include changing nappies and instead includes military service or police work or fire fighting etc... then so be it. It doesn't make her any less of a woman. My point is, lets remove gender from careers all together. And let each person engage in their chosen field based on their merits instead of what they have between their legs. A lot of women were given skills other than those of nurturing, caring for babies, cleaning and cooking.... let them explore it without being seen as taking something from men!

And for the record, if a woman CHOOSES to stay at home and just raise children instead of working, if it truly was her choice, then that's fine. But not all of us choose that!
 

Ishna

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No, not all men are happy to get shipped off to war and have it easy because all the "high stress" jobs (like being a secretary doesn't have any stress in it at all?), and physically demanding roles like building railroads in the swealtering sun are open to them no problems. Im sure that my FIL preferred to screw up his knees from a lifetime career as a commercial electrician and was happy to die of aspestosis due to his career. He's dead but his wife is still alive.

You do realise you're discriminating in the same way you're asking others not to? If she wants to stay home and "just" have babies - it might not have value to you but for a lot of women that's what they want to do.

You can't champion a gender neutral approach to career roles while discriminating against half the roles!!
 

Luckysingh

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This just seems to be turning into another men vs women thread instead of the op about relationships.

In a marriage relationship it doesn't matter who does what but someone has to do the 'maid' (feminine) stuff unless you want to have a permanent hired maid.

Maybe Akash doesn't like making the bed or doing the dishes but I don't think anyone does. In a happy marriage and family these things have to get done even if you don't like them. We can't all be doing ONLY what we like, can we ??

Maybe Akash is a little tomboyish and some guys are girlish, does it really matter ??
You say that we should stop assigning masculine/feminine roles but these are assigned to everything aren't they ?
Every single object has masculine/feminine grammar assigned to it in nearly every single language, with English having the least.
 

spnadmin

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Luckysingh ji

I totally agree. From a moderation standpoint, the thread has become a place where "roles" are under the scanner and the nuts and bolts of "relating" to a spouse seems to have gone missing.

Let me try to get this back on track with this question, written deliberately to avoid THE CORRECT ANSWER, so that we can discuss things rather than preach to one another.

Here is the question. Which is more important to a marriage (however you define it)? a) Honesty and efforts made between partners regarding what they hope to gain as a couple from the marriage OR b) Making a sincere effort to correct personal flaws that bother our spouse, so that there is less interpersonal stress?

I am leaving love, sex, money, social status, prestige etc. out of this on purpose so that the focus can be more on how couples in a marriage interact as individuals and as a unit.
 

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