Understanding Guru As Per Granth Sahib

[Sikh80]

How the Bani is to be read

I have picked up the following from another similar thread wherein Lalihayer ji is suggesting that we should read the bani as a whole or atleast, a shabad, to arrive at the meaning of the Bani. I am quoting it here as it shall be helpful for me for the purpose of interpretation.

Quote
Harsimransingh
You said that One line or the whole Shabad, Guru’s Word doesn’t change meanings Lalihayer Ji. Here are some tuks from Gurubani. If we take these literally without taking into consideration whole shabad and context, do you agree with literal meaning.

Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 153, Line 5
ਹਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥
I am a sinner - You alone are pure. ||1||


Guru Ram Das says Page 167, Line 5
ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
O my Lord, I am a sinner; I have come to Your Sanctuary, and fallen at Your Door, Lord.


Guru Ram Das says on Page 172, Line 11
ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਪਾਪ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਚੋਰ ਚੁਰਾਇਆ ॥
I am a sinner - I have committed so many sins; I am a villainous, thieving thief.


Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 228, Line 9
ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕਉ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
I am a worthless sinner, without merit. What merit do I have?

Guru Nanak Dev says on Page 12, Line 4
ਨਾ ਹਉ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਨਹੀ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
I am not celibate, nor truthful, nor scholarly. I was born foolish and ignorant into this world.


Guru Arjan Dev says on Page 51, Line 17
ਭੂਲਹਿ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੂੰ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
Like a foolish child, I have made mistakes. O Lord, You are my Father and Mother. ||1||


Guru Ram Das says on Page 172, Line 7
ਹਮ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
I am egotistical and conceited, and my intellect is ignorant. Meeting the Guru, my selfishness and conceit have been abolished.
Unquote

 

[Sikh80]

Analysing Todays[9th July Hukumnama]


Respected pk70 ji

Showering His Mercy, the Lord imbues the mind with His Love. The Gurmukh merges in the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. || 1 || Imbued with the Lords Love, the mortal enjoys the pleasure of His Love. He remains always blissful, day and night, and he merges into the Shabad, the Word of the Perfect Guru. || 1 || Pause || Everyone longs for the Lords Love; the Gurmukh is imbued with the deep red color of His Love. || 2 || The foolish, self-willed manmukh is left pale and uncolored. Even if he wishes it a hundred times, he does not obtain the Lords Love. || 3 || But if the Lord blesses him with His Glance of Grace, then he meets the True Guru. Nanak is absorbed into the subtle essence of the Lords Love. || 4 || 2 || 6 ||

I have taken the Hukum nama for understanding the meaning and I think the exercise should be obver after sometime.

The following line is to be considered.

But if the Lord blesses him with His Glance of Grace, then he meets the True Guru.

Here

Lord= Creator
True Guru=????

As per my opinion True Guru should stand for Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Kindly opine and I shall be very grateful.


Regards
Forgive me please.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji,

Why do I think that True Guru refers back to the Lord (Satguru or Waheguru)? I could be wrong, but here is the line again.

But if the Lord blesses him with His Glance of Grace, then he meets the True Guru.

So to paraphrase,

If a person is blessed by Him (The Lord) with His (the Lord's) Glance of Grace, then that person meets Him (The Lord) who is the True Guru (the Satguru, Waheguru).

 

[Sikh80]

Sikh80 ji,

Why do I think that True Guru refers back to the Lord (Satguru or Waheguru)? I could be wrong, but here is the line again.

But if the Lord blesses him with His Glance of Grace, then he meets the True Guru.

So to paraphrase,

If a person is blessed by Him (The Lord) with His (the Lord's) Glance of Grace, then that person meets Him (The Lord) who is the True Guru (the Satguru, Waheguru).

aadji,

There is nothing to make me feel that you are incorrect. Infact, Congratulations, that we are able to see something that I never did earlier. let us try one or two other vaaks and try to assign our meanings.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

Sometimes guru vaaks can be hard to figure out. Translations can never be exact. And poetry is never logical in an outright way.

Do you think that there are some guru vaaks that even the best scholars of gurmat vichaar will say are difficult to decipher with absolute certainty?

 

[Sikh80]

ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
bin sathigur kinai n paaeiou bin sathigur kinai n paaeiaa ||
Line1.Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord


siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
sathigur vich aap rakhioun kar paragatt aakh sunaaeiaa ||
Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

Let us take the English lines numbered as ! and 2.
Line1.Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

Line 1.
I shall be tempted to give meaning to satguru to Guru Granth sahib ji as it is with this that we get the teachings and the practice of which makes us worthy of meeting/merging with the Lord.I shall take satguru as the sabad-guru.Line-2
Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

He= Lord
True Guru= For the present would mean to be sabad-guru as it is the true-guru for the sikhs .
[ It could have implied the Human body of the Guru sahibs prior to the compilation of the Guru Granth sahib ji and its proclamation as the guru]
Thus He is in sabad-guru by the practice of which we can meet HIM [or He can reveal Himself.]

This ,to me also makes sense]

Kindly opine.

 

[Sikh80]

Sikh80 ji

Sometimes guru vaaks can be hard to figure out. Translations can never be exact. And poetry is never logical in an outright way.

Do you think that there are some guru vaaks that even the best scholars of gurmat vichaar will say are difficult to decipher with absolute certainty?

Yes, there are some vaaks that are not easy to de bug.
Let us not discuss those ,atleast, for the time being.
You have to opine on the above post as well.

 

[Sikh80]

guru pauVI byVI gurU guru qulhw hir nwau ] (17-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.

In the above I shall place the meaning of Guru as The SGGS as it takes me to Lord's name. The second option is to treat Guru as God ,in which case the translation shall not be very meaningful.

You may kindly opine if you have some time. I am breaking for a cup of tea.

Regards
[/FONT]

 

[spnadmin]

ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
bin sathigur kinai n paaeiou bin sathigur kinai n paaeiaa ||
Line1.Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord


siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
sathigur vich aap rakhioun kar paragatt aakh sunaaeiaa ||
Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

Let us take the English lines numbered as ! and 2.
Line1.Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

Line 1.
I shall be tempted to give meaning to satguru to Guru Granth sahib ji as it is with this that we get the teachings and the practice of which makes us worthy of meeting/merging with the Lord.I shall take satguru as the sabad-guru.Line-2
Line 2.He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

He= Lord
True Guru= For the present would mean to be sabad-guru as it is the true-guru for the sikhs .
[ It could have implied the Human body of the Guru sahibs prior to the compilation of the Guru Granth sahib ji and its proclamation as the guru]
Thus He is in sabad-guru by the practice of which we can meet HIM [or He can reveal Himself.]

This ,to me also makes sense]

Kindly opine.

Yes this one is harder than the first one. What makes it hard is the "He" in English is the subject of the sentence and the first word. So one has to stop several times and ask "he?." Who does "he" refer to? Pronouns like "he" are always more abstract and therefore create ambiguity.

But I think you have it right. That is the only interpretation that makes sense. Who can place Himself in the True Guru? It is circular isn't it? "He" cannot be an ordinary person. We don't place ourselves in the True Guru. It is the other way around. So we can eliminate every other candidate except for "Him." He is in the True Guru (Shabad Guru). And Shabad Guru is not limited to Sri Guru Granth Sabhib ji, but also includes His Shabad in the eternal sense. He reveals Himself through the Shabad Guru. He is within the Shabad Guru.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected aad ji,.

In any case The Lord has placed Himself in Guru/sabad Guru and that may as well be in the 'word of sabad' as well. I hope this is that you mean.
Well in that case also we get to know of the same through the 'sabad guru' if we are blessed by HIM i.e the Lord.


Kindly note that we are proceeding like students of a nursery class and all other students may have reached the level of post graduation without understanding the concept of primary.Let us with whole heart devote time on this. It has been an area that has confused me for quite some time and I think that it is only through mutual sharing that we can really understand the meaning of guru and then can practice the SGGS bani in a clearer fashion.


Even HE shall forgive us as we are trying to understand HIM.

Bon Voye

 

[Sikh80]

aad ji,

Kindly refer to post 30 for further comments.I have already given my comments.Kindly comment when you are calm and comfortable.

Regards

 

[Sikh80]

gur duAwrY nwau pweIAY ibnu siqgur plY n pwie ] (1015-17, mwrU, mÚ 1)
Through the Guru's Gate, the Gurdwara, the Name is obtained. Without the True Guru, it is not received.

In this case True Guru would stand for the Lord HImself as HE blesses us with naam.
[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

Creation of three worlds


The creator is stated to have created the three worlds. These were not created by the Ten Guru of sikhs. Hence they again do not qualify for the position of God and further sich the belief is solidified on account of the fact that this has not been stated in Bani. Hence Gurus were not the creators. They might have been emerged with the Lord as per HIS grace.



The following lines are also suggestive of the same concept.





swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.
jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused
His Light.

 

[SadeePuri]

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

Attrubute Of the Creator


One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.Each sikh is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.

to.be contd..

Dear Sikh80 Ji,

Me and my whole clan-family and friends are Sikhs and they consider Guru- the creator.

I am sorry, Sikh Ji, you cant speak for every sikh like that. Infact any saint is the creator, this is what BabaJi(SGGS Ji) says:rofl!!:.

 

[SadeePuri]

Originally Posted by Sikh80
AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

Attrubute Of the Creator


One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.Each Sikh is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.

to.be contd..

not a few lines- it is all over: BabaJi is telling us this Truth on every page, in every line.

Originally Posted by Sikh80
AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

Attrubute Of the Creator


One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.Each Sikh is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.

to.be contd..

When BabaJi is telling this Truth- some can read it in only in few lines- So it is true.

To me BabaJi is telling it in every line- So it is true.

By the way Bhgat Bani is also BabaJi. -So it is true.

I am not forgetting at all that 'Guru is Lord'. None in my family and friends have forgotten this either. This doesnt indicate that we have forgotten something or we are not following BabaJi, Or we should start believing that BabaJi is not the Creator. He is the Creator. There is only One Creator. He is was and shall be. He is every Saint and every Guru. He is everywhere. Those who look at one saint with one look and at another with a different look Cant see that ONE, because for them Saint is limited to the body, IN reality He is the Creator Himself. That's why Baba Ji tells- He is one and many.

 

[Sikh80]

not a few lines- it is all over: BabaJi is telling us this Truth on every page, in every line.

I have gone through your post and have noted your observations.
There is another thread that I had started named' Guru as per sikhism' where people like you are posting and carry the same opinion like yours.You may post your views there so that these are appreciated. WE all have the freedom of opinion. You have all the right to disagree.

 

[Sikh80]

gur AwgY kir jodVI jn nwnk hir mylwie ]10]1] (234-15, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 4)
Offer your prayers to the Guru; O servant Nanak, He shall unite you with the Lord. ||10||1||

In this case also Guru is saying /advising that we should pray to the Guru and the Guru shall unite with the Lord. Guru here shall stand for the Granth Sahib and the later should be for the Lord.

[/FONT]

 

[SadeePuri]

I have gone through your post and have noted your observations.
There is another thread that I had started named' Guru as per sikhism' where people like you are posting and carry the same opinion like yours.You may post your views there so that these are appreciated. WE all have the freedom of opinion. You have all the right to disagree.

Do you mean that I am banned from posting my opinion that is in disagreement of yours-under this thread.

 

[SadeePuri]

gur AwgY kir jodVI jn nwnk hir mylwie ]10]1] (234-15, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 4)
Offer your prayers to the Guru; O servant Nanak, He shall unite you with the Lord. ||10||1||[/FONT]

In this case also Guru is saying /advising that we should pray to the Guru and the Guru shall unite with the Lord. Guru here shall stand for the Granth Sahib and the later should be for the Lord.

For me it is the same One and Only One. Nanak Guru and Lord- one and the same

 

[Sikh80]

siqgur imilAY sdw mukqu hY, ijin ivchu mohu cukwieAw ]
Meeting the True Guru, eternal liberation is obtained; He has banished attachment from within.


In the above line the word 'True' has appeared as a pre-fix to Guru. I shall like to read True-Guru as the Lord Himself and not the SGGS .